MECA Freezefest 2-26-12 Lebanon TN roll call and questions

[bmiller1]

Originally Posted by strakele

Did the new judge hear turn off pops in EVERY SINGLE CAR?

I guess. Two of the judges hit me for that and I still can't hear it.

[dietDrThunder]

Originally Posted by strakele

Did the new judge hear turn off pops in EVERY SINGLE CAR?

Not mine...wait, I got something right???

[strakele]

I've never gotten hit for system noise until FF.

[MacLeod]

I think theyre getting ridiculous with this noise nazi crap. alternator whine, ground loop, hiss and such I can buy but because my $600 amp goes "pfft" when its turned off because of no fault of mine, I lose a point. I don't think you should be penalized for something you have no control of aside from buying a new amp and hoping you get lucky and get one that doesn't pop. I've been bitching about this for a few years now but I'm in the minority I think.

[strakele]

I generally agree that a system should not have any kind of noise, but if everything has to be perfectly silent and you have to strain to be able to hear it... I think that's going a little overboard.

[Mic10is]

Originally Posted by MacLeod

I think theyre getting ridiculous with this noise nazi crap. alternator whine, ground loop, hiss and such I can buy but because my $600 amp goes "pfft" when its turned off because of no fault of mine, I lose a point. I don't think you should be penalized for something you have no control of aside from buying a new amp and hoping you get lucky and get one that doesn't pop. I've been bitching about this for a few years now but I'm in the minority I think.

to clarify Noise testing, the noise must be audible through the SPEAKERS.
So things like remote relays, and most relay clicks should typically not be a noise deduction.
The only type of noise that does not need to be heard through the speaker is panel resonance.

But the rule clearly states, that noise must be audible through the speakers.

Now the tricky part is, most judges donot know where the speaker locations are and do not want to know. So this can make it difficult to identify if the noise being heard is in fact coming through a speaker.
So to be safe, most judges will deduct for it anyways. the severity of the noise is where there can be some issues and open to interpretations.
And while many judges do have knowledge of all different sorts of equipment it would be ridiculous to think that they should have a running knowledge inventory of every piece of equipment which by default has some noise

noise that is barely audible it should be .25 to .5 deduction. If the noise is clearly audible, especially during music at a normal listening level (90db) then it can be a full point deduction.
maximum amount that can be deducted for a single item is 1point.



and Aaron, youre preachin to the choir brother....I got 2nd in back to back IASCA Finals in 03 and 04 bc of Alpine H700 analog noise floor. Im talking 5 point noise deductions and losing by 1 and 2 points...

[MacLeod]

Originally Posted by strakele

I generally agree that a system should not have any kind of noise, but if everything has to be perfectly silent and you have to strain to be able to hear it... I think that's going a little overboard.

I think you should get hit for stuff you've done wrong. ground loop noise, alternator whine and even hiss to an extent are results of problems in the install somewhere. Those should be deductions. Getting an amp that has no on/off pop is strictly a matter of luck. I ran 2 Alpine amps and 1 had a pop. I ran 2 Crossfire amps and 1 had a pop. I'm now running 3 Polk amps and, you guessed it, 1 has a pop. I've heard $1000 Genesis amps with a pop. I think the rules should be changed to read "excessive turn on/off pops". Obviously if it sounds like a pistol being fired, that's a problem. A little whisp of air isn't and shouldn't cost a competitor a win.

Originally Posted by Mic10is

and Aaron, youre preachin to the choir brother....I got 2nd in back to back IASCA Finals in 03 and 04 bc of Alpine H700 analog noise floor. Im talking 5 point noise deductions and losing by 1 and 2 points...

Wow!! I would've needed medication if that ever happened to me.

[millerlyte]

Originally Posted by strakele

Did the new judge hear turn off pops in EVERY SINGLE CAR?

Um, YEAH. I know the Modex group got together shortly after and we were all wondering why most (or all?) of us had off pops. To be frank, I really highly doubt it.

Not to sound like a smartass, but being half the age of the judges, it's safe to say that my hearing is probably a lot less worn out, and I have never heard any on/off pop on my car.

That said, at least they only deducted 1/4 point, but still.

[stereo_luver]

No pops here.

Chuck

[bikinpunk]

Since Grayson and John both asked to see what the respone in my car looks like, here it is:



Below 300hz is typically mostly tuned by ear and it's always a bit of a mess because of the way the car creates modes. I've learned that you almost have to rely about 70% on your ear in this region. Measurements are great at helping you find trouble areas but we all know just how much even a half dB can be the difference in just enough and too much. The way the car lights up around 70hz is a nightmare that I've been fighting forever. Pretty much everything below 200hz is a PITA and getting this area 'right' is, IMHO, more important than anything. Sure, having the treble response sounding great is wonderful but if the low frequency response is muddy, it COMPLETELY covers up the detail that you worked so hard for in your tune. Until the midbass and subbass is cleaned up, you won't fully realize just how awesome your upper end response is. Just my opinion...

Above 300hz the response is, for all intensive car audio purposes, pretty dang flat. I used the mic to help me match levels between drivers and between Left & Right. I then used the 31 band pink noise tracks to center up the bands a bit more by ear and then used the Chesky disc's narrative to further tighten up the focus. I will say that as little as 0.06ms of time alignment made ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD in the high frequency response and ultimately the entire system's response. Aligning the tweeter fixed sibilance and actually improved depth. No joke. I used 8khz & 10khz pink noise tracks and could literally hear the phase lock in place every 0.06ms (or, every 3 clicks on the p99 where 1 click is roughly 0.02ms standard air conditions).

Getting this final curve response was mostly done by RTA. A solid 80% of everything above 300hz that anyone heard and what is shown in the above was done via measurements. I removed the headrest, and held the mic at approximate head position while moving the mic in about 6 different locations within the head area and adjusting the final curve. This was all done after I had done the L/R matching via RTA and ear.
The goal wasn't necessarily to get as flat as possible, but the goal was to knock down peaks in response that might detract from the playback. If you look at my EQ you'll see a large amount of cuts with probably only about 2-3 bands with any boost at all; none being over 0.5dB, IIRC. In other words, I tried my best not to boost anything and, instead, make cuts to smooth the response.

I see areas that might need some work but, tonally, this is the absolute best my car has ever sounded. And it stages so much better than it ever did. I attribute this to proper levels, use of EQ, and time alignment. It's not perfect but I'm honestly very happy with where I'm at.

Hope that helps.



Here are distortion measurements as well. These are very good. Below 2% across the board. Well over 40dB down from the fundamental. Nothing here really stands out strongly to me as there are no abrupt rises; overall the trends are nice and below any nominal threshold of audibility (30dB is my cutoff point based on data from Klippel).

[MacLeod]

Impressive sir. Ive really gotta get a laptop and RTA program. I do all my tuning by ear......which would probably explain my 0-5 at finals.

[millerlyte]

Originally Posted by bikinpunk

Below 300hz is typically mostly tuned by ear and it's always a bit of a mess because of the way the car creates modes. I've learned that you almost have to rely about 70% on your ear in this region. Measurements are great at helping you find trouble areas but we all know just how much even a half dB can be the difference in just enough and too much. The way the car lights up around 70hz is a nightmare that I've been fighting forever. Pretty much everything below 200hz is a PITA and getting this area 'right' is, IMHO, more important than anything. Sure, having the treble response sounding great is wonderful but if the low frequency response is muddy, it COMPLETELY covers up the detail that you worked so hard for in your tune. Until the midbass and subbass is cleaned up, you won't fully realize just how awesome your upper end response is. Just my opinion...

Above 300hz the response is, for all intensive car audio purposes, pretty dang flat. I used the mic to help me match levels between drivers and between Left & Right. I then used the 31 band pink noise tracks to center up the bands a bit more by ear and then used the Chesky disc's narrative to further tighten up the focus. I will say that as little as 0.06ms of time alignment made ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD in the high frequency response and ultimately the entire system's response. Aligning the tweeter fixed sibilance and actually improved depth. No joke. I used 8khz & 10khz pink noise tracks and could literally hear the phase lock in place every 0.06ms (or, every 3 clicks on the p99 where 1 click is roughly 0.02ms standard air conditions).

Well, that basically summarizes everything I need to fix on my car into such an easy-to-understand manner than even I can do it!

Thanks Erin!

[bikinpunk]

I know I keep posting stuff in this thread about my car so I hope you guys don't think I'm trying to brag. Honestly, I'm just trying to help folks make the correlation to what they heard vs how it measured and was scored. I guess I'm sharing the behind the scenes type stuff but if it helps you guys further your own cars, that's fine by me.


As far as tuning all by ear... I just don't have the ear for it. I can listen to things and find when something is pretty wrong, but I can't say "oh, you need to work on 3.15khz to get more X" or anything along those lines.
I used the JL Audio iPhone app to help me pinpoint certain frequencies that stood out as bad (ie: the vocal would walk as Sara K's voice got higher and I found it walks from 500-1.6khz so I centered that up via 1.25 & 1.60khz).

The one thing that I've gotten much better at is telling when phase is just right. It's amazing how much a difference just a little bit of t/a can make. I'm talking... depth increased by a couple inches with just 30 minutes of t/a adjustments.
Again, I'm not perfect at this but we're all learning.

But, pretty much everything above 300hz in my car was done via help of the RTA. Especially level matching the drivers all together and between sides. From there it was just a matter of spending time and using the eq to knock down peaks and see where it got me.


I'm more than happy to help someone with the RTA if it's needed. Once you figure out how to do some good spatial averaging, everything else is gravy.

[bikinpunk]

Originally Posted by millerlyte

Well, that basically summarizes everything I need to fix on my car into such an easy-to-understand manner than even I can do it!

Thanks Erin!

was just about to reply to your PM with a link to that. Hope it helps!

[Mic10is]

Originally Posted by bikinpunk

I know I keep posting stuff in this thread about my car so I hope you guys don't think I'm trying to brag. Honestly, I'm just trying to help folks make the correlation to what they heard vs how it measured and was scored. I guess I'm sharing the behind the scenes type stuff but if it helps you guys further your own cars, that's fine by me.


As far as tuning all by ear... I just don't have the ear for it. I can listen to things and find when something is pretty wrong, but I can't say "oh, you need to work on 3.15khz to get more X" or anything along those lines.
I used the JL Audio iPhone app to help me pinpoint certain frequencies that stood out as bad (ie: the vocal would walk as Sara K's voice got higher and I found it walks from 500-1.6khz so I centered that up via 1.25 & 1.60khz).

But, pretty much everything above 300hz in my car was done via help of the RTA. Especially level matching the drivers all together and between sides. From there it was just a matter of spending time and using the eq to knock down peaks and see where it got me.


I'm more than happy to help someone with the RTA if it's needed. Once you figure out how to do some good spatial averaging, everything else is gravy.

Sara K is THE worst track to use!!!! She turns her head when she sings, so sometimes it sounds like shes drifting, mostly right...but its bc she sings like Stevie Wonder and turns her head alot

[bikinpunk]

Originally Posted by Mic10is

Sara K is THE worst track to use!!!! She turns her head when she sings, so sometimes it sounds like shes drifting, mostly right...but its bc she sings like Stevie Wonder and turns her head alot

she was moving to the left. :/

The problem actually turned out to be a reflection from the passenger side tweeter, off the driver's side glass and right in to my left ear. I forgot about that until a minute ago.
I remember because I sat in the car trying to align the peak via EQ and it just didn't completely solve the problem. It lessened it, but not as much as it should have with the kind of adjustments I was making (I was going extreme no the EQ to see what happened). When I realized that, I leaned over to the passenger side tweeter and aimed it a bit more on axis. Leaned back to the seat and started the track over... problem solved.
Just another reason why tuning isn't always easy. Never know exactly what is causing a problem without some experimentation.

[Mic10is]

Originally Posted by bikinpunk

she was moving to the left. :/

The problem actually turned out to be a reflection from the passenger side tweeter, off the driver's side glass and right in to my left ear. I forgot about that until a minute ago.
I remember because I sat in the car tryI leaned over to the passenger side tweeter and aimed it a bit more on axis. Leaned back to the seat and started the track over... problem solved.
Just another reason why tuning isn't always easy. Never know exactly what is causing a problem without some experimentation.

yeh but if u put your ear to the speaker, the sound still came from the center...how cool is that!!

[bikinpunk]

Originally Posted by Mic10is

yeh but if u put your ear to the speaker, the sound still came from the center...how cool is that!!

and yet I still scored a mid 70's. LOL!

[Mic10is]

Originally Posted by bikinpunk

and yet I still scored a mid 70's. LOL!

apparently it wasnt THAT cool

[bikinpunk]

For real. Like winning the lottery. But only winning $2.

Lol!

[MacLeod]

I love the Sarah K track. I use it maybe more than any of them. Just the first few seconds of that track tell me a lot from 400-8000 Hz as well as some very good imaging cues.

[Mic10is]

Originally Posted by MacLeod

I love the Sarah K track. I use it maybe more than any of them. Just the first few seconds of that track tell me a lot from 400-8000 Hz as well as some very good imaging cues.

just so u know, Judges use it for like 15seconds if that....wheres the Trumpet in relation to her...score...done

[MacLeod]

I dont use it to line it up for the judges, I use it to tell me about the tonality of my system. I use this track the most when Im A/B'ing presets. Ill listen to the first 10-15 seconds of that track a few times then switch presets and see which one sounds better. There is more detail and information in that track than on the others IMO. I know everybody will like different things but since I have to tune all by ear cause I dont have access to an RTA, the Sarah K track is the one I can pick out all kinds of things with.

Youre right tho, Ive had a ton of judges tell me that they barely use that track at all. But I figure if Ive got the tonality right with that one then Im good on all the others.

[Mic10is]

Originally Posted by MacLeod

I dont use it to line it up for the judges, I use it to tell me about the tonality of my system. I use this track the most when Im A/B'ing presets. Ill listen to the first 10-15 seconds of that track a few times then switch presets and see which one sounds better. There is more detail and information in that track than on the others IMO. I know everybody will like different things but since I have to tune all by ear cause I dont have access to an RTA, the Sarah K track is the one I can pick out all kinds of things with.

Youre right tho, Ive had a ton of judges tell me that they barely use that track at all. But I figure if Ive got the tonality right with that one then Im good on all the others.

tip of the day---use 19 starting around 3:00 in
I learned several judges use this for a few things, including overall tonality bc there is alot going on

It isnt a track I ever really used, but may in the future.....Oh wait I'll never have to judge with this disc again..oh darn

[bikinpunk]

Originally Posted by Mic10is

tip of the day---use 19 starting around 3:00 in
I learned several judges use this for a few things, including overall tonality bc there is alot going on

It isnt a track I ever really used, but may in the future.....Oh wait I'll never have to judge with this disc again..oh darn

honestly, I'm not too keen on the new one.

besides, I was just getting used to the 'old' one.