[Elgrosso]

So apparently the TS-WX710A went out in 2013, and the TS-WX70DA just came out.

old:

new:

They changed a bit the folding layout but both are back loaded horns:

But honestly I’m note sure of the difference here, is it just about length/mouth size proportion and related box tuning?

It is interesting and lots of appeal for those that don't DIY, but seems like anyone on this site could make a T-line that custom fits the space and for less money.

You could get a shallow mount 12" sub in that much thickness and volume though. With more power handling and likely higher driver efficiency as well.

Seems far more interesting as a midbass concept than a subwoofer, assuming you could get a midbass T-line to exit where you wanted,

So far simulating bandpass midbass I have yet to come up with something that I think is worth building.

Yes it’s cool that they work on more exotic stuff like that. Also it can be found for not that expensive online. I almost want to try but I’ll wait for the first reviews.
As you said, more used as midbass since it’s good up to 250Hz, 2 could be cool under front seats if they fit.

For the shallow 12", won't it need a much bigger volume?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I've built transmission lines, tapped horns, sealed boxes, front loaded horns, back loaded horns, bandpass boxes and vented boxes.

Hoffman's Iron Law still rules the day. The main advantage of the Pioneer box pictured above is that it's height is very very low. Basically they're using a horn to raise the efficiency of a pair of sixes so that their output is competitive with a ten or a twelve. But the twelve will still offer more output, due to higher displacement, due to higher SD and xmax.

But if you wanted to make a low profile subwoofer that doesn't cost too much, this would be an interesting option.

 

[Elgrosso]

I've built transmission lines, tapped horns, sealed boxes, front loaded horns, back loaded horns, bandpass boxes and vented boxes.

Hoffman's Iron Law still rules the day. The main advantage of the Pioneer box pictured above is that it's height is very very low. Basically they're using a horn to raise the efficiency of a pair of sixes so that their output is competitive with a ten or a twelve. But the twelve will still offer more output, due to higher displacement, due to higher SD and xmax.

But if you wanted to make a low profile subwoofer that doesn't cost too much, this would be an interesting option.

Thanks Patrick,
So you mean a 12*in this configuration (volume/size) could still work and give more output than 2x6, or can a too big woofer be detrimental here?

By the way I found more, also a carrozzeria version (probably just esthetic):

carrozzeria | ????????????TS-WX77A

and even Alpine did the same thing:

パワードサブウーファー(専用コントãƒ*ーラー/å°�型アンプ付属) ã€�SWE-2200】｜ALPINE Japan

Less details here, not even sure it's a horn, and 2x8"

Must be a trend for small vehicles in Japan

 

[92blacktt]

I had a 10" carrozeria powered subwoofer in my toyota soarer that I imported from japan. The output was good, and had the same low profile as the dual 6" powered subwoofer. If the output is the same, what is the point of the loaded horn? Can just use a 10"...

 

[Elgrosso]

I had a 10" carrozeria powered subwoofer in my toyota soarer that I imported from japan. The output was good, and had the same low profile as the dual 6" powered subwoofer. If the output is the same, what is the point of the loaded horn? Can just use a 10"...

This one? ƒpƒ��[ƒhƒTƒuƒE�[ƒtƒ@�[ - TS-WX99A

(500w/100db/ported 10 apparently)

I would imagine that, after the volume/shape advantage, efficiency and low power requirement of the horn can be interesting.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Thanks Patrick,
So you mean a 12*in this configuration (volume/size) could still work and give more output than 2x6, or can a too big woofer be detrimental here?

By the way I found more, also a carrozzeria version (probably just esthetic):

carrozzeria | ????????????TS-WX77A

and even Alpine did the same thing:

パワードサブウーファー(専用コントãƒ*ーラー/å°�型アンプ付属) ã€�SWE-2200】｜ALPINE Japan

Less details here, not even sure it's a horn, and 2x8"

Must be a trend for small vehicles in Japan

Back in the day, the owner of Stereo Integrity and I used to argue about horns. His opinion was basically that a sealed or vented box of equal volume was less hassle. I was of the opinion that horns could be more efficient.

It took me a few years of building and measuring, but he was right: If you have two boxes with the same F3 and the same volume, their low end efficiency will be similar. Doesn't matter if it's a bandpass, transmission line, horn, vented box, even a sealed box.

So, the Pioneer box is cute, but I wouldn't expect it to outperform a sealed or vented box of comparable volume.

Now that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. For instance, this is a great way to create an efficient loudspeaker that's also very shallow.

In fact, I've been doing the exact same thing for years, for my midbasses:

I take a midbass and I put it in a bandpass box. The bandpass loading requires a larger box, but it also raises the output. (Again, box size and output are tied together.)

So for me, it's a way to make an exceptionally loud midbass that's just 3-4" tall. My car stereo has changed in many ways over the years, but bandpass midbasses have been a constant. (I stick the bandpass box under the front seats, and the exit of the bandpass goes to the side of the car, to maximize the width of the stage.)

Now, obviosuly, there's an alternative here, which would be to use one of those 'shallow' subs. But I'm not a big fan of them for a number of reasons:

1) They're hideously expensive. Even the cheapest 'shallow' subs are $80 and you can spend $300 easily
2) For what you spend, they're not competitive. For instance, a $150 Dayton Ultimaxx will walk all over the shallow subs priced at $150.
3) The biggest problem by far is that their F3 is way too low. Most of the 'shallow' subs are true subwoofers, and they have low F3s and low efficiencies.


Put all of that together, and I tend to make a lot of boxes that look like this thing from Pioneer. Mine are usually designed for midbass duty.

Also, from a manufacturing standpoint, this is a way for Pioneer to make an affordable shallow sub. A couple of 6" woofers can be had for about $40, and in the right box they will outperform the shallow subs that cost 2-3x as much.

 

[92blacktt]

it looked like that, don't remember the exact model. This was back in 2008 and I sold it after importing the car.

This one? ƒpƒ��[ƒhƒTƒuƒE�[ƒtƒ@�[ - TS-WX99A

(500w/100db/ported 10 apparently)

I would imagine that, after the volume/shape advantage, efficiency and low power requirement of the horn can be interesting.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Here's some pics of my new bandpass midbass enclosures for my car. They use an AuraSound NS3 woofer, which is currently on sale at Madisound.

The 'gap' in the enclosure is just there so that I can assemble it. Basically i screw the driver in, I cover the entire enclosure in mortite, and then I wrap it in fiberglass. This is to create a constrained layer damping enclosure.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

Is that installed under your dash?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Is that installed under your dash?

I haven't decided yet. I need to 3D print some horns. If there's enough room under the dash, then these will go there.

My original plan was to try and cram an 8" midbass and a tweeter onto a Unity horn, but I just couldn't make it fit. So the current plan is a Unity horn with a ribbon tweeter, a 5" midrange (on the horn) and then as many midbasses as I can find room for.

 

[Elgrosso]

Nice, what kind of output do you get from it?

 

[Focused4door]

Awesome!
Other pics are great to illustrate the horn

Apparently a brutal change in section in the middle is ok.
And isn’t it strange that they patented this? I mean it must be super hard to define a sellable solution for all variations of cars

Looks like Bose is doing this or something very similar, can't tell if it is a Transmission line or a horn.

THE SOUND OF 34 VOICES SPEAKING - The curious listener's guide to the Bose Panaray System in the Cadillac CT6 | LA Car

http://www.lacar.com/2018ct6/34-speaker-cadillac-ct6-bose-panaray-audio-system.jpg

Gary Summers posted about the Bose Cadillac system in the best OEM thread.

 

[Elgrosso]

Maybe just a small bandpass P.Bateman style?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

How come I never though of that?

That's a midrange horn. That's pretty clever.

Sound can't expand until a duct is large enough for it to expand. IE, if you have a waveguide that's sixteen inches wide, but only an inch tall, the wave will only bend in one axis. (13,500hz is one inch long. So in a 1" tall duct, everything below that frequency will love unable to expand until the duct becomes large enough.)

That's how Bose gets away with those bends.

The other 'neat' part is that the perceived location of the speaker will be the mouth of the horn. IE, back by the firewall.

Gary told me about this system a few weeks ago, he wasn't a fan

One thing that I see with speaker companies is that they're often obligated to deliver obnoxious systems, because marketing runs the show, not engineering.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

I'm pretty sure you mentioned it before. I remember reading about it. Old news [emoji16]

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Focused4door]

Here's some pics of my new bandpass midbass enclosures for my car. They use an AuraSound NS3 woofer, which is currently on sale at Madisound.

The 'gap' in the enclosure is just there so that I can assemble it. Basically i screw the driver in, I cover the entire enclosure in mortite, and then I wrap it in fiberglass. This is to create a constrained layer damping enclosure.

I am kind of curious if epoxy resin will dissolve water soluble filament.

If not, you could 3D print a mold and then fiberglass it, then dissolve the print away. It would save some space for the enclosure.

Even if epoxy would dissolve the print, you could probably cover it in something that would come out or off when dissolved.

Might be interesting to try different resin types.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

It doesn't. One of the things that I've battled constantly, when it comes to 3D printing, is making the prints airtight.

I'll post some measurements when I'm not buried with my day job, but basically I had two bandpass midbasses with identical enclosures and drivers and one of them was 3dB quieter! When I ran an impedance sweep, I found that the box was leaking.

This is something that I see year after year, and I haven't seen too many people ranting about it. My 'hunch' is that most people are using active crossovers, so they're not bothering to run impedance sweeps. But if you DO run an impedance sweep, you'll see that even the tiniest leak will cost you output.

And not a small amount of output; a difference of three decibels is like going from an 8" woofer to a 5" woofer. It's a BIG problem.

I go to ridiculous lengths to make the enclosures airtight. Back in the day, I used to seal them with Liquid Nails for Subfloors. (This is great stuff, it dries smooth and it's water soluble, so easy cleanup.)

Nowadays I do a CLD sandwidth of fiberglass, the 3D printed enclosure, then mortite, and then another layer of fiberglass. So it's basically an outside surface of fiberglass, and inside structure of PLA, and a layer of mortite for damping. I use System Three T-88 epoxy.

This might sound like a tremendous amount of work, but keep in mind that I don't have to screw with cutting boards at all these days. Back when I made enclosures out of wood I might spend eight hours cutting and gluing. Nowadays my printer does 75% of the work.

But I think that 'finishing' the enclosure is absolutely essential. In fact, my last set of waveguides wouldn't have melted in the sun if I'd finished them properly. I basically got impatient and wanted to hear them, so I didn't take the time to fiberglass them.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I've had these new bandpass midbasses in my car for about three days now, and I just can't believe these things. I need to do some measurements.

When I measured them outside, their F3 is about 120Hz. I have no idea how much cabin gain I'm getting, because I haven't measured them, but they honestly hit as hard as a 12" sub. (Check my posts, I'm not into hyperbole!)

These things are performing beyond my wildest expectations, to say the least. Admittedly, the enclosures are an absolute p.i.t.a. to build, because they must be absolutely positively airtight. But I guarantee you, if you got in my car today, you'd think I was running a couple of eight inch midbasses. I'm guessing a lot of this is due to cabin gain. Cabin gain usually adds about 12dB at 40Hz, so the F3 on my 3.5" midbasses may be as low as 50-60Hz in the car.

But here's the fun part:

I have two of these in the car right now, but I never planned on running two. They're TINY; I planned on using as many as I could fit. I will be using at least four, and possibly eight.

That should get, um, interesting. It would be wild to do a car with no subwoofer, and an array of Aurasound NS3 midbasses. That would be a serious skullfuck. These woofers punch way above their size.

 

[Elgrosso]

Looks impressive, disto seems a little high but did you measure max spl?

 

[mh_mini]

Looks impressive, disto seems a little high but did you measure max spl?

I'd imagine using 4+ would lower the distortion while raising spl