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JL's New Amps...Werewolf and Others?

10K views 71 replies 26 participants last post by  diamondjoequimby 
#1 · (Edited)
I'd like to preface this post with the following: I've never been a fan of "full range" class D amps.

Moving on...I believe the tech is similar to ICE, but not. The new line of amps are called HD, and they are said to be the "top shelf" of JL amplifiers. http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/mikechec9/JLAmp.jpg

I was wondering if we might get a review from the perspective of Werewolf and/or other...M.I.T. grads or seasoned enthusiasts in the field ;)

Here is the patent info: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...LL&s1=6084450.PN.&OS=PN/6084450&RS=PN/6084450
 
#27 ·
dragonrage said:
How about tubes introduce tons of distortion and are the crappiest amp technology you can get, regardless of whether certain people prefer the sound of the distortion?

And unless your test was a double-blind ABX test, it's worthless. Not worth less, as in still having some worth, but worthless as in having no worth. Unless something was wrong with the amps, or the settings were different. Except for the tube amp, those introduce a LOT of distortion.
Dragon ... What kind of dildo is stuck up your ass man ? You come across as an angry woman who's on the rag.

You're in Mass .... Come up to Winchester , Mass. Take a listen to my system , and then you'll no longer question everything I say.

Send a PM to skierxx5556 and ask him. He's a resident Mass guy , and has heard my system many times. He'll clue you in man ...

I'd offer to buy you a beer , but you seem in a perpetual bad mood ... I'd hate to have you swing on someone who has their own opinion about a particular subject .... LOL
 
#31 ·
It's too bad every thread on JL has to turn up a basher or two who completely turn the focus of the thread to their insisting JL amps are "omfg like wtf". So much praise has been given to them i think if someone has a bad experience with them they should take it as a personal preference or just the wrong amp for their application and not try to make it sound more broad than that.

Anyways, my question to those who have said they got some jl amp repair headaches: what tends to go wrong? Do the amps just stop working at some point or is it more subtle, do they start to distort more and more?

thanks
 
#32 · (Edited)
a blind test would be pretty sweet..id say if we kept it among diy members it may shed some light on the whole amp sounds like thing among us
 
#34 ·
zfactor said:
a blind test would be pretty sweet..id say if we kept it among diy members it may shed some light on the whole amp sounds like thing among us
I'm always up for it. I've participated in double blind tests for many years , starting back when i bought the high-end home audio store in TX.
One of the main reasons I'm so quick to say things such as " all amps do NOT sound the same " , is because I have already proven I can reliably tell the difference , time and again.
It makes for a real sore spot with a lot of people , and many have become jealous or angry , but yes ..... I can and do hear the difference , and I know this , due to my experience with double blind listening tests ....
 
#35 ·
z_accoustics said:
It's too bad every thread on JL has to turn up a basher or two who completely turn the focus of the thread to their insisting JL amps are "omfg like wtf". So much praise has been given to them i think if someone has a bad experience with them they should take it as a personal preference or just the wrong amp for their application and not try to make it sound more broad than that.

Anyways, my question to those who have said they got some jl amp repair headaches: what tends to go wrong? Do the amps just stop working at some point or is it more subtle, do they start to distort more and more?

thanks
Hey Z ... go back and read the original poster's post. He asked for opinions on JL amps .... I simply shared my experience and feelings with him. That doesn't make me a basher , just honest.
 
#66 ·
I keep reading the original post over and over again and all I see is him asking for people's opinions on the NEW "HD" series JL amps. You know, like an analysis of the specs and maybe some more info on the new products. This seems real clear especially from the topic. The intent was not to poll the population for JL gripers.

When I am sure of something, like what brand to use, I tend not to be compelled to go after the other guys any chance I get. However, if i'm not that sure that my opinion is sound, but i've already made my choice, i'll probabbly over compensate with critisism. Maybe that is what some of this JL bashing is about.. dunno. don't know if i care that much either, it's late.[end freud]
 
#36 ·
AVI said:
I'm always up for it. I've participated in double blind tests for many years , starting back when i bought the high-end home audio store in TX.
One of the main reasons I'm so quick to say things such as " all amps do NOT sound the same " , is because I have already proven I can reliably tell the difference , time and again.
It makes for a real sore spot with a lot of people , and many have become jealous or angry , but yes ..... I can and do hear the difference , and I know this , due to my experience with double blind listening tests ....
Hey AVI, I’m not trying to question your ability to tell amps apart but I'm trying to learn what those differences that you notice are to see if they are things that would be important to me in car audio. For instance, was it something like this amp has more noise or something much more detailed like the stage on this amp is deeper (which for me would not be an issue when considering an amp) and did you test at levels that smaller amps could keep up with the dynamic peaks. Anyone else can share their opinions if they have done similar controlled test. Thanks :)
 
#37 ·
dragonrage said:
If you'd like to get a group together to do a blind ABX test, I'm up for that. Let me know if you don't know how a blind ABX test works and I'll explain it.
Based on the sheer number of times you've repeated "blind abx test," I humbly think that you've been dieing for the opportunity to strut your stuff (or paste your copy) :rolleyes:

Be our guests...
 
G
#38 ·
For the millionth time ... nobody, and i do mean nobody ... has ever suggested that all amps sound the same! Suggesting that "all amps sound the same" is a hypothesis that would be positively trivial to disprove.

Suggesting that one side of the "debate" ... for lack of a better word ... "believes" all "amps to sound the same" is wrong on at least two levels:

- it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of one side's position
- it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method, to suggest that both sides rely on a "belief" system

Let's try it this way :

Of course amplifiers sound different! But we know the short list of reasons why.

If you "believe" ... and i'll use that term very accurately ... that the short list is inadequate, there's one very clear way to validate your belief: Get two amps, make sure the items on the short list are the same (meaning, sonically indistinguishable), and demonstrate a statistically-significant result that a difference is still heard.

Why is that so confusing?
 
#39 ·
werewolf said:
For the millionth time ... nobody, and i do mean nobody ... has ever suggested that all amps sound the same! Suggesting that "all amps sound the same" is a hypothesis that would be positively trivial to disprove.

Suggesting that one side of the "debate" ... for lack of a better word ... "believes" all "amps to sound the same" is wrong on at least two levels:

- it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of one side's position
- it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method, to suggest that both sides rely on a "belief" system

Let's try it this way :

Of course amplifiers sound different! But we know the short list of reasons why.

If you "believe" ... and i'll use that term very accurately ... that the short list is inadequate, there's one very clear way to validate your belief: Get two amps, make sure the items on the short list are the same (meaning, sonically indistinguishable), and demonstrate a statistically-significant result that a difference is still heard.

Why is that so confusing?

I think this should be a pop up window in EVERY car audio forum...;)
It gets tiring for the same old crap going around and around, and around..
 
#40 ·
Did I miss it, or did this post get edited from being about the new amps to the old ones?
 
#41 ·
From JL

"ICE Power is the tradename for a proprietary Class D amplifier technology developed and marketed by Bang & Olufsen. It's a very good, high-efficiency amplifier technology which is being licensed by many companies.

Our HD amplifiers (the ones pictured in the first post) will not use ICE Power, but rather a different switching technology originally developed as a research program at the University of California, which we have licensed exclusively for the 12 volt market. If you're concerned about fidelity, all I can say is that we are using exactly the same technology in our upcoming full-range, powered monitors for high-end home and professional use and the technology is already in use in some of the world's finest professional monitors. And, to address a comment posted above... this technology is not less expensive to build than a conventional Class A/B design... not by a long shot.

The overall efficiency of the design is extremely high, which allows for a very small chassis for the power of the design. We will have more details on the HD amplifiers later in the year.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc."

"The ICE power Class D technology is nothing at all like the RF Hybrid tech. The RF technology is basically a current draw averaging design, wherein the amplifier can store energy during low demand periods and release the stored energy during high demand periods without exceeding the charging system's peak capabilities. The flip side is that the average current draw is higher than a conventional design.

A Class D (switching) amplifier is simply more efficient in its conversion of energy because its transistors are either on or off and never partially on (which is a highly inefficient state). This is where they gain an edge over a linear (A or A/B) design, resulting in less current draw. Until recently, switching amps were not really suitable for full-range, high-fidelity use but recent advances like the IcePower and the technology we're using in the new HD amplifiers are changing that rapidly.

Best regards

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc."
 
#43 ·
Well next year when these will probably come out I hope to be able to pick one or three up. I ran a couple JL's previously and thought they were wonderful. I don't give a crap what anybody else thinks of their sound or price because only when you buy my gear can your opinion may carry some weight. One of the output sections went out for some reason, don't know why. Cost a little bit to get it fixed and then i sold it. Should have kept it.
 
#44 ·
Of course it's not ICE or it'd say so. There are several full-range Class D options, including Tripath, ICE, UcD, Equibit, whatever JVC's is called, and more...

As for mikechec9, who had nothing to offer to this thread (and will probably claim the same for me), I mentioned a blind ABX test because such a test is absolutely necessary to validate claims that low-distortion amplifiers sound noticibly different. The guy extended an invitation to see (or hear, rather) the difference for myself, so I'm suggesting we actually DO such a test, which I would LIKE to participate in because I am NOT positive that amps sound the same, but I DO refuse to believe the opposite (in most cases) until proven otherwise. And I am trying to set up a test to find out.

So before you rip on a skeptic WILLING TO GET PROVED WRONG, try and contribute something, yeah?
 
#45 · (Edited)
zfactor said:
i cant say they are bad sounding amps though.. even zeff stated they were one of the best amps he's ever heard ... that says a lot to me coming from competition..
AVI said:
NEVER heard a JL amp that sounded musical to me , even one little bit. Dry and analytical all the way ....
.... Only one amp actually sounded considerably better than other amps that had been in my car , and that was the Arc SE Series amps.
Is it me, or did others catch the irony in the above statements?
- Zeff like the sound of the JL amps and designed the Arc SE amps.

I guess this is were we all have to A-B-C-D- test equipment in our own system to get a grip on what is what....this amp thing is getting a bit old.

The only thing I can say about the JL Amps .. I put one in for a friend and that thing was in a small compartment with no air and never shut down or had noise issues.

Stop hatin' on JL...those amps look nice. If you ran a car audio company, you would be crazy not to get onboard the small amp train! Hell, they made a big splash with the OEM intergration thing....This amps can fit right into that marketing scheme:

-CLEANSPEEP (Keep your factory deck!)
-HD AMPS (Small & needs little space!)
-STEALTHBOX (Stealth!)

Sounds like a good marketing plan to me! JL does not seem to be in financial trouble....Like I said....you really can't be mad at them.
 
#47 ·
WLDock said:
Is it me, or did others catch the irony in the above statements?
- Zeff like the sound of the JL amps and designed the Arc SE amps.

I guess this is were we all have to A-B-C-D- test equipment in our own system to get a grip on what is what....this amp thing is getting a bit old.

The only thing I can say about the JL Amps .. I put one in for a friend and that thing was in a small compartment with no air and never shut down or had noise issues.

Stop hatin' on JL...those amps look nice. If you ran a car audio company, you would be crazy not to get onboard the small amp train! Hell, they made a big splash with the OEM intergration thing....This amps can fit right into that marketing scheme:

-CLEANSPEEP (Keep your factory deck!)
-HD AMPS (Small & needs little space!)
-STEALTHBOX (Stealth!)

Sounds like a good marketing plan to me! JL does not seem to be in financial trouble....Like I said....you really can't be mad at them.
Can't help WHAT Mr. Zeff may have said ... I can only report what I found in my own experience.
JL is without doubt a money making venture .... But it takes more than that for a line to be accepted in our store. We cater to the wealthy side of the Boston area .... Our prices reflect that , so our products and installs have to reflect that also.
Having said that , JL is simply NOT good enough for us to push to our customers with a clear conscience. I'm not " hating " on them , but rather giving my honest opinion of where they are in the scheme of things.
Why can't you accept that ?
 
#48 ·
dragonrage said:
So before you rip on a skeptic WILLING TO GET PROVED WRONG, try and contribute something, yeah?
Peacefully, I contributed the start of the thread so that I could learn more from the perspective of those more versed in the subject. It just seems as if you're looking for an argument in which to expound on your ancillary enlightenment with blind abx tests. If that's your angle, I'd further contribute by suggesting you start your own thread where discussing tests as such might prove more...meaningful.
Not trying to "rip on" you or anything, though. Just a respectful observation.
 
#50 ·
AVI said:
Can't help WHAT Mr. Zeff may have said ... I can only report what I found in my own experience.... JL is simply NOT good enough for us to push to our customers with a clear conscience. I'm not " hating " on them , but rather giving my honest opinion of where they are in the scheme of things. Why can't you accept that ?
My comments were not directed at you...unless you are one of those JL haters??? :) I don't work in the industry, never sold JL, nor have I dealt with other JL amps besides the one I spoke of. Not refuting your experiences or anything like that.

Just seems there are always the guys that ALWAYS have something negative to say about brand A or B because the brand is popular(JL dislike is STRONG on the net!). Popularity has a way of doing that. Seems many in car audio never keep equipment that long.... always moving on to the latest and greatest. I think it is funny how much emotion guys put into their posts about how much they hate brand A or B...funny. Just buy brand C and be done! We all have had a letdown here and there with equipment.

....I just quoted you based on your dislike for they way their amps sound and zfactor stating that R.Zeff likes them. I find this amusing! (No disrespect)....
This is the same thing I experience when I first got into car audio. Seem I would get opposing views on equipment from different people who I though knew more than me about car audio.
Nobody’s wrong or right.....we all have to form our own views. I learned that early on.

So what brand do your high-class customers in Boston like? You sell Boston, Arc, and Audison right? How do you feel about these full-range high-efficiency amps? You guys carry any? Ever compare the SQ to A/B amps?
I would love to run the Arc Se's myself but not in the cards at the moment.
 
#51 ·
He he he .... Yeah , I too find the irony funny. I often wonder if other people hear the same things i do , and via via ...

We sell amps from Arc , BA , Audison , Tru , Brax , Zapco , Focal , and a few others ...

We have auditioned Pioneer's version of the new style amps , and one of our customers had one from another manufacturer. The Pioneer was taken off the sound board within two days .... The Foose just walked on it , so we knew pretty early it was not up to our tastes ....
When the technology is ironed out better , we'll do some real close listening tests.
 
#54 ·
On a side note, if I were to see a double-blind amplifier comparison, I'd rather just see someone take the RC amp challenge than have a DIY combined "double blind" get together, which may or may not be the type of controlled test required to do such a comparison. Too many variables otherwise, RC doesn't care about brand loyalty or those involved, especially if you put a healthy amount of money down :D Bout as neutral a party as you can get
 
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