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4" Midrange Comparison Shootout - Dyn, Scan, Hat, More

129K views 417 replies 88 participants last post by  jimbno1 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
This all started with Lycan posting a technical comparison of the HAT L4's vs the Scan Speak 12M (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-technical-comparison-hat-l4-vs-scan-12m.html). From the direction of that thread, I am going to be conducting a Subjective listening comparison of these and many other 4" midrange drivers.

Here is a list of the drivers/members involved in the test:

Scan Speak 12M (Lycan)
HAT L4 (BidRed)
Dynaudio 430 (Niebur3) - Tester
Vifa NE123 (Niebur3) - Tester
Morel CDM54 (Remeolb) - Tester
Morel CDM88 - (Remeolb)Tester
and what ever else BidRed is sending

We also have Bikinpunk sending testing equipment and Kizz as a Tester. If anyone else wants to be involved, let me know. I am in Omaha, NE (centrally located for anyone!).

It also looks like H-Audio will be sending some Trinity's for testing.

We have 5-6 people right now confirmed for the listening and will be doing both blind and non-blind testing (see if brand/price does cause a bias). It will be a controlled environment and I will try to do a sealed and IB as well as on/off axis. Hopefully we will be able incorporate it all.

Right now, we have a request for DLS Iridium if anyone wants to put them up against the domes in this test. This is probably going to be a pretty extensive test!


UPDATE:
Report is done. Please see the following link to view the report and discuss the test:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...range-comparison-shootout-results-thread.html
 
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#2 ·
Once all the drivers arrive and are ready to test I'll send out the WT3.

I do suggest that you keep track of what's what when you run the tests. You can save the results as one large file and have up to 20 memory slots (like trueRTA), and if you do this, you may forget what was what, so keep a notebook handy. ;)
This will allow you to show all the drivers' impedance plots against each other, or a few, or one.
But, you can only see the basic t/s parameters for one driver at a time.

Looking forward to the results.
 
#3 ·
Awesome...thanks Bikinpunk....I will contact you for help with the software if needed.

We just had more offered for testing (thanks Jimbno1):
Alpine F1 version of 12Ms
Pioneer PRS
Peerless Exclusives

I will probably have to close the list at this point unless I can get some donations/help with return shipping of all these drivers....I going to own stock in FedEx!
 
#4 ·
I know it's a bit off topic but would someone, you, or maybe Lycan be interested in testing/listening to a pair of Helix RS-208 2.5"-3" midranges? I am VERY interested in finding out a bit more both from the objective and subjective sides. I will send them to a willing (and trusted) party to fool around with. someone LMK if interested. Below is very liimited PDF of the driver specs. PM me to LMK, or email to benjamin2180 [at] gmail dot com. I like the the interest and curiosity that Lycan has brought out and just want to contribute in what ever way I am able. Thanks all.

-Ben

View attachment RS802.pdf
 
#6 ·
I know it's a bit off topic but would someone, you, or maybe Lycan be interested in testing/listening to a pair of Helix RS-208 2.5"-3" midranges? I am VERY interested in finding out a bit more both from the objective and subjective sides. I will send them to a willing (and trusted) party to fool around with. someone LMK if interested. Below is very liimited PDF of the driver specs. PM me to LMK, or email to benjamin2180 [at] gmail dot com. I like the the interest and curiosity that Lycan has brought out and just want to contribute in what ever way I am able. Thanks all.

-Ben

View attachment 16780
I can do the subject listening against the others and some basic measurements if you want to send them...just pay return shipping!
 
#12 ·
The Dayton RS100 is a forum favorite and I'd be happy to send you mine and chip in for return shipping. They've done well in previous midrange comparisons and are priced a bit differently than most of those listed already. :)
 
#22 ·
Wow! This is going to be some test! We learned a lot of things from the first two rounds of out subwoofer shootout. This is going to be a tough test for you guys because so much of how a mid will sound depends on how it integrates with both the midbass and the tweeter. At least with the sub we only had to worry about midbass integration. Are you planning to test the mids by themselves or in a full system? I can't wait...
 
#26 ·
This is going to be pretty challenging, you are right. They will be tested as a full system, integrating with the MD130 and MW182's. I will need to adjust the crossover points for the dome mids we are testing. I just hope they all fit in my pods. :)
 
#38 ·
Yep, too bad. ;)

That's why I'm rectifying that. I'm sending him a pair. Also, whoever mentioned the RS100s. I have 2 pair, and can easily send one with the other drivers and test equipment I'm sending. You can save your shipping costs.
 
#24 ·
What day do I need to have the mids there??? I am currently thinking of getting the cdm88s to replace my hl70s so it would be nice to hear a comparison and how low can the cdm88 go vs hl70 and power handling.
 
#25 ·
The 88's are definitely in and I just found out the 54 are in question and looking like they wont be in unless someone wants to send some. If you are looking to send the hl70's, I would say you have at least 1 1/2 weeks, maybe more. I will update as the drivers are coming in.
 
#27 ·
The PRS, F1, and Exclusives will ship today or tomorrow.
 
#29 ·
Scan 12M's will ship today :)

I think it's GREAT that you guys are doing this ! :D

But a STRONG word of caution, when comparing any two drivers in the SAME enclosure size : COMPREHEND THE SCIENCE !!!!

Here's what I mean: I've read way too many tests where the tester put several drivers in the SAME enclosure, and compared how they sounded. Often, you'll find the classic phrases like : one of the drivers had a "tighter" bass, or a "fuller, warmer" bass, etc. And the testor thinks he did a "fair" comparison because the drivers were in the exact same enclosure! What could be more "fair" than that, right? So he must be hearing the "sound" of the different drivers, right?

Wrong. WAY wrong. What this type of testor doesn't realize is that each driver has it's own high-pass frequency response in it's piston range. And the SAME box will essentially apply a DIFFERENT EQ to each driver. YES ... the SAME box applies a DIFFERENT EQ curve to the different drivers. Depending on the Vas and Qts of the drivers, the SAME box may boost the bass of one driver by 1 dB, while boosting the bass of a DIFFERENT driver by 3dB (for example). It would be the EXACT same thing as comparing two IDENTICAL drivers in DIFFERENT size boxes. And it would be the EXACT same thing as comparing two IDENTICAL speaker systems, with random (and not understood by testor) electronic EQ applied to each.

Now, the good news :) This can ALL be "comprehended" by a little measurement, and analysis or modeling up front. What I recommend, is one of (or both of) the following options:

1. Use the spec sheets for each driver to capture the Vas, Qts and Fs in free air. Then, model the response curves for each driver in free-air ... using math (i'm happy to provide details), or your favorite box-modeling program. Second, measure or estimate the volume of your enclosure. Then, repeat the modeling steps with the enclosure size included.

2. Use the WT3 to measure the Qts, and Fs of each driver in free air. REPEAT that measurement for the drivers IN the enclosure. Use math or modeling to plot the response curves.

You may wish to do this "measuring & modeling" separately & blindly from the listening tests, to see how well the listening correlates with what the science says about the drivers (in their piston range). That's fine too :)

But the response curves, in the enclosure-of-interest, MUST be comprehended, in order to have a meaningful & fair comparison.
 
#30 ·
^ agreed.

Measure the drivers free air, and ALSO in the enclosure itself to tell a true story.

The only time that one should put drivers into the same size enclosure is if the enclosure is molded or installed specifically to fit install criteria (pillar installs that you want to keep small, for example). In this case, you’re picking the driver best suited for the install rather than picking the install based on your driver.
 
#33 ·
As this is a "subjective" test, you will also need to take great pains to level match for EACH speaker set you use as differences in efficiency, and thus, loudness, WILL affect your subjective conclusions. Good luck with this incredible challenge you have undertaken, and start building a kevlar jacket for the shrapnel that will surely fly. I will look forward to your assessments.
 
#35 ·
LOVE the point you are making, I just LOVE IT!!!!!! Anyways I prolly will send out my drivers on next week I will PM you to get the details. (how long will I be without my babies) lol
 
#36 ·
Since I have NIB WT3 SW I will just send with my drivers to save shipping costs. Bikin will still have to provide the technical support since I haven't used it myself yet.
 
#39 ·
Out of all of the drivers listed I'm most interested in the RS100's. For me, those are the most realistic $ range for my install. I can't wait for this data!
 
#40 ·
I have a question for all here....would it be better if I did this test completely outside the car? I was talking some with one of the guys helping test and the thing I am worried about is controlling the placement and mounting of all the drivers (I don't think all of these are going to fit in my pods) and I don't want this to become the best midrange for a Pontiac Firebird. We can control temperature, placement, time alignment, and all sort of other aspects in a better controlled environment. There may be drawbacks to doing this, so that is why I am posting to see what you guys think. I will pull my battery and charger and still use my P9 for DAC purposes if you guys think it could make a big difference and will still be using my Tru amps. Let me know what you guys think! I want this to be a valid review/test of these drivers!
 
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