lcy 110 + rs180

[IceWaLL]

I couldnt wait to toy with these tweeters when they arrived today so I hooked them up as fast as I could and was left a little disapointed to find that my "fixed" linear power dpsq50 yet again managed to break but luckly it was only one channel so my tweeters were playing right only but this was minor seeing as not much of the music I like changes left to right.

I also would like to point out that i built this setup against everything i like. I dont like metal tweeters and I prefer paper or plastic type materials for woofers (no pun intended)

anyway on to what i think of the woofer. the rs180 as you should know if you frequent these forums does have a breakup at around 3khz and its very audible but even a 2nd order electrical crossover can solve that problem. the woofers are very clear sounding and can actually give you some robust bass. I have yet to push these to their limits due to my new kickpanels being empty and nasal sounding so pushing them harder sounds horrible but you can tell they have a lot of bass output. I think after some polyfill and maybe some bodyfiller these will sound GREAT. not much else to say about these that hasnt already been said. amazing drivers for the price... or well any price!

keep in mind I have my treble turned up +2 because they seemed hidden behind my mids if i didnt boost them a little so that gave them a litttle more treble then i wanted... explained below.

now on to the juicy stuff... lcy 110's. believe it or not my initial impression on them was :o WOOOOO I dont like these at all! they are WAY too metallic sounding. BUT after tweaking my crossover points a bit (hard cuz its 2nd order) the mids were tamed and i took a closer listen. first song was hardcore heavy metal song by haste track 1 on "the mercury lift" and the cymbals were really intense, so i quickly switched to drakest hours newest cd and again found them to sound metallic but this is when the fun began... I kept turning up the volume and my ears would not hurt no matter how loud they got. I started to like this.

The best way I could describe these tweeters/ribbons is they have incredible detail like you wouldnt believe and a top end sparkle dome tweeters wish they could achieve. Have you ever been to a concert or in a bands room and the cymbals just seem to come alive making you firmly aware of their presence? well if you know what I mean then you can picture how these sound (like each sound is picked from a different speaker)

I was fooled at first thinking these ribbons were harsh when it actually was the amazing top end sparkle these ribbons have. (probably achieved by the thin ribbon which is supposed to respond instantly) I wasnt used to this because I like silk domes they are very laid back.

so what does someone do that has tweeters like these... listen some more! popped in one of my favorite recordings because there are a lot of parts of just female vocals not the best music but it sounds good on great speakers.... tatu. I could really hear every time they opened their mouths and took a breath. made me want to close my eyes and picture the words. tested some other tracks and the same was found - detail... impact... transparency...

I was also surprised how loud these can play and of course they are extremely efficient. I also wanted to give everyone an idea of their off axis response as this seems to be a hot topic with these ribbons. incredible FR! I could have moved from one side of my truck to the other and not known which tweeter was off axis. I would have to agree that ribbons take your stage and make it WIDE. put it this way, my truck is about 64 - 66 inches wide on the inside and music filled the entire truck no matter where you sat or faced... impressive!

like these tweeters you will! mmmmmmmm.... hehehe

are these worth $400 dollars for the pair? not really but the truth is no dome can compete with them... maybe in FR but not in dynamics or detail.

I think 90% of people should stick with the cheaper line of tweeters like seas and vifa. but if you crave the best ribbons are the way to go. I personally would have been satisfied with my old vifa mg's but not so sure id be willing to give these up :D




im still listening to these and sure there is even room for improvment espcially if i get a 24db crossover.

I may try my treble flat and adding a tiny bit of gain to see if they come alive without making them peaky.

[demon2091tb]

Very nice review. :)

I so wish i could afford some of the LCY's :(

[IceWaLL]

took about another hour and reset crossovers and took off the bandpass on the woofers and just lowpasses them at what seems like 2-3khz 2nd order cuz thats all I have is 2nd order. woofers are a bit cleaner now and transition to the tweeters is fixed.

then the gains for the ribbons is a REAL pain in the arse one minute you think you have it then the next song is too loud but I finally got it and those ribbons are sweet.

if there was anyway the get the detail and sparkle of a metal dome but with the smooth forgiving flat response of a silk these are it. I tried the rs28a and found them to be nice a detailed and not harsh just like people said but most definatly sounded colored by the metal. I don't care what you think or say thats my opinion. they sound still like metal but they did manage to get rid of the harshness which was nice but not my taste.

so i take back what I said about the ribbons... these arent harsh or metal sounding... more airy and transparent is the words i would use.

I LIKE IT!

[cotdt]

great review! i'm going to use the same pairing, but with much steeper crossovers because i think you may be getting your RS180 to play some of the treble since 2nd order has such slow roll-off. The RS180 needs to be crossed over low and fast or you can hear problems with it. I'm sure you can get huge gains by upgrading to a digital crossover or passive.

LCY's are definately the best tweeters I've ever heard!

[blackreplica]

wooo nice review, i throughly enjoyed reading it. real happy you are enjoying the LCY. So have you finally decided on the best sounding crossover point to match your rs180s?

[speedyd718]

good to read a review on the mids. i just got my dayton rs180's and i'm pairing them with the seas 27tdfc's. with kicker sx400.2 and sx900.2 amps. can anyone point me towards more reviews on the 180's. just to get a feel for them.

[cotdt]

good to read a review on the mids. i just got my dayton rs180's and i'm pairing them with the seas 27tdfc's. with kicker sx400.2 and sx900.2 amps. can anyone point me towards more reviews on the 180's. just to get a feel for them.

THe RS180 sounds just like a SEAS L18RNX.

[nothing13]

The new Darkest Hour album is awsome, good choice. What do you think of the new "As I Lay Dying" cd? I cant get enough of it. :)

[IceWaLL]

o of course the As I Lay Dying cd is awesome. in case anyones curious its called "shadows are security" great cd.

yes I finally got the crossovers down but will be looking to later buy a ps2 for my 5.8" screen and a eq/crossover to fix all the little problems with the rs180 and lcy mating. Id really like to take these lcy's and lower the crossover point so that way the rs180 isnt playing so high. but its quite good for now.

you do have to be careful not to break these ribbons but they actually are quite durable. i had them at first crossed too low and I was watching them flex which was quite scary! but even with them bending they didnt seem like they were going to break anytime soon.

and if anyones curious if these lcy's are loud enuff well... they ARE! I have a v8 350 with headers going straight back to flowmaster 40 series which is only half way back of the cab of my truck. So I can no longer hear the exhaust even while driving. Id say thats very loud. but of course I dont like to leave it at this volume as I kinda like to hear the next day :)




o and dont forget to pick up the new god forbid cd. its amazing. (i used to play watch them play at recording studios, so i know those guys can REALLY play)

[10K2HVN]

Nice review!

what are your xover points again..? and where are each drivers placed/pointed..?

[IceWaLL]

everything I did was a first time as I've never tried kicks before or fiberglass. so things got messy.

i don't know where the xover points are as its just a dial. one end is 50hz the other is 5khz. so its hard to tell exactly where im at. i just moved the dial as little as i could and listened then turned it again.

as for placement I angled the drivers side a little higher then the passenger top of the door. and the passenger kicks are aimed almost directly at me... maybe slightly higher then ear level. tweeters are above the mids... so i built them so the tweeter is higher then the woofer, anotherwords the tweeter ends up more on axis then the woofers do. but only slightly.

seems to work pretty good but due to my cabin being so huge you can tell that the left woofer is definatly closer to me but you really have to pay careful attention to it. treble sounds perfect no matter where I sit so that worked out great. I have to literally lay sidways on the bench seat in order for the tweeters to change in sound.

I still have a little bit of tweaking to do but its pretty close to what I like.

[speedyd718]

THe RS180 sounds just like a SEAS L18RNX.

i've never heard any of these speakers. that's why i asked. i'm venturing on uncharted waters for me. i've heard the xxx, extremis, cdt hd's and ef's. i bought the rs180's based on value and wanting to go active.

[IceWaLL]

I've noticed after toying with them and tweaking my xovers for more then 6 hours in total that gain is VERY important with ribbons. moving the gain the slightest bit more can make them sound hissy and SOMETIMES bright.

At some point I will get a better xover... most likely just replace my amplifier with built in digital crossovers like my brother has.

[IceWaLL]

Scratch that... tried reversing the polarity on my ribbon tweeters and WALLAH!!!! tweeters are as smooth as could be and now they seem as if they are just a bit farther away from the floor.

I now enjoy them much more.

[kevin k.]

It's "voila"... :)

[cotdt]

Here's a passive crossover network for the RS180/LCY110 combination for rear mounting only. The L18RNX has very similar specs to the RS180 so it is a drop-in replacement. The midbass must be slanted 30 to 45 degrees and the tweeter should be pointing horizontal. It has a slight treble bias to suit the noisy car environment and help off-axis response and trades a bit of efficiency for extra bass, and it is a series elliptical crossover that starts at a 3rd order rolloff but rolls off faster gradually. Crossover point is 1800Hz. For door-mounting, just stick with active crossover. With good capacitors like Sonicaps, this should sound pretty darn good!

[newtitan]

how did you design that crossover?

[cotdt]

how did you design that crossover?

I started with a known design and tweaked it for car environment and of course for the drivers. I used Speaker Workshop and my knowledge of circuit theory. Then I built it.

[IceWaLL]

nice

[IceWaLL]

UPDATE:
11/28/05


Many of the things I said previously were due to cone breakup and poor adjustments of gain on both the tweeter and mid. the rs180 had such a strong peak around 150-300hz that it was utterly annoying to listen to. thought it was my kickpanels resonating but after careful listening and tuning over the past week I suddenly realized my gain was WAY too high on my mids. Turned it down gradually and the peaks were gone and vocals are much cleaner and blend with the tweeter.

also tweeter sounded spitty because of gains as well and all speakers are now out of phase due to the 2nd order crossover im using. (seems to work well)

FYI - I absolutly LOVE the rs180 + lcy110 setup.

was :confused: :( NOW -> :D





also speakers are not aimed as previously stated... (DRIVERES SIDE) tweeter is aimed slightly to the right of my face just in front of me. mid is aimed at center of the ceiling if that. (PASSENGER) mid and tweeter are pretty much on axis to me but could be just slightly above my ears. hard to tell and not perfect but the truck is HUGE so aiming is not quite as critical as other cars but drivers side was definatly off so i had to use blocks to raise the tweeter more towards me.

[Hipnotic4]

damn i gotta get some lcysssss

[IceWaLL]

yes I would suggest the lcy's if you want a ribbon tweeter thats small enuff this is it, its just very deep (3-4" i guess).

anyway my reason for posting here AGAIN is to say that I was a bit hasty and excited when I got these and didn't have the best HU or crossover for them. Plus as Npdang suggested I EQ'd out some of the topend just slightly and am using a great xover and I truly enjoy my music now.

anotherwords what was said previously was entirely due to a bad setup so only look at what was said good about them :) bottom line they are sensitive, clear/low distortion, and are a real treat to the ears especially on well recorded albums.

[cotdt]

i played around with a lot of different drivers using my computer as crossover and now i think there are much better options than rs180+lcy since the midrange is kinda mediocre with that combo.

w18nx + lcy's (w/ waveguide) is my favorite. too bad the w18nx isn't mine. those excels are damn expensive. then again, the lcy's are also damn expensive. they should sell them for $100 a pair for both the excels and the lcy's.

[jtholley03]

It is interesting you described the ribbons as metallic sounding. It is the ease of the upper end that I find so enjoyable. Some measurement have "proved" that some of the airiness of the ribbons is due to distortion but I'll take them anyday over a normal ribbon.

When I get my LCY's and get them installed I will write more.

What is a good place to cross the LCY over going to a w18NX?

[tf1216]

Hey cotdt,

Have any pictures of the LCYs with a waveguide? I absolutely need to see that!!

[10K2HVN]

It is interesting you described the ribbons as metallic sounding. It is the ease of the upper end that I find so enjoyable. Some measurement have "proved" that some of the airiness of the ribbons is due to distortion but I'll take them anyday over a normal ribbon.

When I get my LCY's and get them installed I will write more.

What is a good place to cross the LCY over going to a w18NX?
Mann..Im condering dumping my 3-way plan and going with the LCY+W18NX, too! In my car (after months of tweaking) I think I like my LCY110's best xoverd at 3.6khz on a 12db slope along with my L18's at 1.6khz (L) and 1.4khz (R) on a 12db slope (this is for my 2-way setup).

I think those measurements "proved" that LCY's have more upper end, overall; giving it more "airiness" and the tiny bit extra measured distortion would hardly be negotiable at the end of your hearing range..

[jtholley03]

OK now you've gone over my head. Why different xover points for left and right?

3 way (really 4 if you add a sub) is such a total PITA. I did it in my Eclipse with an active Sony XDP4000 and never got what I wanted with imaging. The xovers were ok but the imaging did some wierd crap. Maybe I'm just too picky.

I was thinking of throwing my Focal 4's on the a pillars with the LCR's but I don't think I want to jump back into that realm.

I am going to start with the ribbons in the doors above the w18nx both pointed skyward and frontward toward the rear view.

I don't like kicks since my legs can move an inch and the sound is totally different. If I can't get something I like in the door I will go to the a pillars with the ribbons.

[cotdt]

Hey guys, I've found something. The Vifa XG18's can extend even higher than the Seas W18NX, and pairs even better with the LCY 110's using 4th order 3.2kHz crossover point. Very detailed, smooth, huge soundstage unlike the metal domes. Pretty cheap too, though their low end performance is pretty mediocre (but not that bad, they do have 5 mm xmax). I would use a sub or a 3-way with these maybe crossed over at 100Hz. Amazing midrange/midbass, I think this one is a sleeper.

I'm using them in my home audio rig but there's no reason why it couldn't work in the car. Has very good dispersion for a 7" due to the cone geometry, at least that's what they advertise.

[10K2HVN]

Truthfully, I want to move my LCY's to a DIY-home setup, but if I do keep my LCY's in my car, then Ill mount them under my dash like horns; not completely on the floor in kicks.

The reason why I have different xover points is because Im trying to make the difference from my leg being in front of the midwoofer and the angle at which the left woofer is to me over the right woofer. I also boasted some of the frequencies around the midwoofers xover point.

COTDT: The Seas W18NX are the newer "NEXTEL" coated *paper* cones..

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3599518.4226&pid=1940

..with an upper extension of ~3khz.

Ive never used those exact Vifa drivers, but I really like the older Alpine (Vifa XG-based) SPX-177A's and newer 177R's are pretty nice too.

[OgreDave]

Cotdt - just happen to be selling a set? :)

Actually I was tempted to buy them for a friend .. mate it w/25NFAs. Dunno about xover pt .. wish it played a lil lower.

[cotdt]

the w18nx can extend high but you also have to look at the energy storage issues up high, since remember it'll still be doing a lot of work well beyond your crossover point. it also has a rising response at starting from 3kHz so if you want to cross high (like 2.5kHz) you need a steep crossover. with the xg18's, i found the 3.2kHz LR4 to work very well. I've also looked at the energy storage and it's good to pretty high. no rising response either. on zaph's 6.5-7" midwoofer tests it has the lowest distortion past 100Hz. the new peerless exclusives might have even lower distortion but won't extend as high based on looking at energy storage. I guess it depends on standards, but by my standards if you don't want to make any serious tradeoffs in clarity, Dayton RS180 should be crossed over before 1.4kHz and peerless exclusive 7" before 1.8kHz. I've verified this for the Daytons, and I've got a pair of peerless exclusives so i'll be listening to them soon. i wonder why they have such a huge motor when their xmax is only 3.5mm.

ogredave - yeah i was selling a set a week ago but they're sold now (got four sold two), so i'm not doing these impressions with ulterior motives, at least i hope not. =)