Pioneer PRS 4" mid

[npdang]

Thanks to Werewolf for donating these special drivers.

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/prs4/pic1.jpg
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/prs4/pic2.jpg

First impression is that this driver is certainly well constructed. The black integrated grille is thick and heavy, and removable from the rear by a set of screws. The motor is entirely enclosed within a solid, rigid chassis, with small vents along the back for cooling. I would have preferred to see a bit more venting under the cone or spider though.

Overall finish on all parts and glue joints is excellent. The back of the motor and the mounting flange are all brushed in concentric rings, and all visible parts of the driver are painted in a smooth, glossy paint.

As with it's larger sibling, it also boasts a solid metal phaseplug, soft microfiber surround, flat spider, and straight profile stiff composite cone. I'm a huge fan of high tech composite cones, as I feel they offer the best compromise between stiffness and dampening. The motor is also an underhung design with neodymium magnets and dual faraday rings. All in all, it has the makings of a high performance driver.

Klippel tests:

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/prs4/prs4.jpg

Wow, amazing results. Nearly perfect curves. The bl curve is especially flat over a long extended plateau and well centered. Notice centering is near perfect for all curves, and the results were identical for both drivers. I would say excellent quality control. This is definitely one of the best drivers I have ever measured.

Nearfield distortion plot:

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/prs4/pr4dist.JPG

Just looking at general trends here, but it appears distortion is exceptionally low above 200hz, which appears to be a good low end cutoff point. On the upper end, regretfully the data is not too accurate due to the close positioning of the mic. Which leads me to a farfield distortion plot:

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/prs4/prs4dist2.JPG

Much better. It appears there's a rise at 7khz, and also around 11khz, but otherwise remarkably flat as the Klippel tests would indicate. Excellent results, showing a quite extended and wide usable bandwidth. Also, note the smooth response, well controlled breakup on the top end, and no peak/dip in the 2-3khz region reminiscent of soft cone drivers.

Waterfall plot comparison:

Dayton ref. rs52
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/prs4/daytoncsd.JPG

Pioneer prs
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/prs4/prs4csd.JPG

Pretty well dampened for stiff cone. I believe most of that low level hash is from the thick grille bars obscuring the face of the driver.

My listening impressions:

I have a thing for well recorded female vocals, so I fired up some Joni Mitchell and Patricia Barber and sat back and listened. I found the PRS mids to be exceptionally revealing and well extended on the top end. It sounded very similar to a good hard metal or ceramic cone, yet slightly more relaxed without the irritating shrill or sterile sound that typically accompanies such drivers. Vocals were rich, yet airy and not overly congested, heavy, or distant. It's a very delicate balance to find and I think these drivers do it perfectly. I'm not good at using flowery, poetic language, so I'll just say that overall, these are the best 4" mids that I've had the pleasure of listening to.

[khail19]

Thanks for the review, I wish it was easier to get a hold of these drivers. By the way, what's the mounting depth on those?

Can I be first in line when if/when you sell them? :D Unless they are being returned to werewolf, of course.

[werewolf]

i think he picked Joni Mitchell because he knows i've been in love with her for 20 or 30 years ;)

[mk1982]

well i don't know that much about PIONEER but .. statements like this from npdang say something
overall, these are the best 4" mids that I've had the pleasure of listening to.

wow!

and on the 720PRS mid
Listening to the mid, I found that compared directly to the Peerless Exclusive 830883 it was a bit more detailed and open sounding with very little coloration. Not an easy feat to accomplish as the Peerless is considered by many to be a top notch driver irregardless of price.

[Genxx]

If I get a pair of those I would run a 3-way front all PRS. Sucks we cannot get them in the states.

Great review Npdang. I had a feeling that these would be very good drivers looking at the 720's. I am shocked that they are the best 4's you have ever tested. Makes me want them even more.LOL

Werewolf start importing them now please. Looking at the test they would sell very well. This makes me sad that I can get a set of the comps but cannot get ahold of the 4" so keeps me from running 3-way with the PRS.

Please someone figure out how to import these into the states. Anyone know someone at Pioneer that can convince them to bring them to the States. One of you guys has enough pull to either get a GB going to get them into the states or enough pull to get pioneer to sell them here.

[lucas569]

someone import these!

[WLDock]

double post

[WLDock]

Well...maybe Pioneer will bring them over next year?

NOT!

Who wants to start the group buy? I have been wanting a set of these since I first heard about them.

Need to find a shop in Europe that will sale to the states......Might be expensive though?

Anyway, thanks Dang and Wolf for presenting these to the forum.

[VaVroom1]

is this the driver we are talking about?
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069894_291263592,00.html

[werewolf]

is this the driver we are talking about?
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069894_291263592,00.html

No. That's the 5 1/4 " from the same family. The driver in question is the TS-S101PRS. You can learn more here :

www.pioneerprs.com

[VaVroom1]

oops my bad. it was a 5 1/4".

thanks wolfie. the model number helps.

[xencloud]

where can these be bought?

[kappa546]

very cool, how much were they and where did you get them?

[KAP]

has anyone tested the 5.25 mid. I just wonder if it would be A viable option to use in place of the 4, and it would be easier to get.

[SOHCKing03]

I emailed a few places in Europe to see if they would ship to the US.

I would love one of these to go active next summer with my 720PRS set!

Anyone else know where to get them?

-Brad

[werewolf]

Europe (does England count? :) ) and Southeast Asia are the only options for where to buy, as far as i know.

[Rbsarve]

Good job as ususal, but these drivers are not cheap over here. They cost almost as much as a 6,5" prs kit and that puts it head to head with 'Scan 12M and Seas 'lotus new Reference 4,5"

But my question was really, are those Xmax figures in Inches or something, because 0.75 mm linear Xmax isn't really so fun @200 Hz...

[Boostedrex]

I have a couple of friends living in Japan right now. Let me see if they can track down a good source for them. If so then I can get them shipped to the U.S. via military post office so shipping wouldn't be very expensive. I'll update once I get some info.

Zach

[xencloud]

thanks boosted!

[werewolf]

Good job as ususal, but these drivers are not cheap over here. They cost almost as much as a 6,5" prs kit and that puts it head to head with 'Scan 12M and Seas 'lotus new Reference 4,5"

But my question was really, are those Xmax figures in Inches or something, because 0.75 mm linear Xmax isn't really so fun @200 Hz...
units are NOT mm ... the units are fractions of Xprot.

The TS-S101PRS is an underhung coil :) with length of 3.4 mm, in a 9 mm gap. Which gives a conservative, linear one-way xmax of 2.8 mm.

[Boostedrex]

I just hope that I'll be able to help.

[alphakenny1]

thanks boost, if its cheap i'll be interested, lol.

[Whiterabbit]

can they be purchased in Ireland? you guys think? How about Northern Ireland?

[Kenny Bania]

What's the difference between the nearfield and the farfield in distance?

What crossover points did you use in music testing?

And what's with the mini PRS site? :confused: :)

Very exciting review, indeed.

[Kenny Bania]

Wouldn't an AD for Pioneer here in the states be able to get these??

[werewolf]

can they be purchased in Ireland? you guys think? How about Northern Ireland?
gotz some buds in Belfast, wabbit? :)

The fact that one of the most innovative-technology 4" midrange drivers (cone, surround, underhung motor, etc.) ... which also happen to be among the best-measured and best-sounding 4" midrange drivers, car and home considered ... can't be easily bought in the states should come as a surprise to exactly nobody :(

Most manufacturers don't even see a high-end market in US car audio ... and we have no one to blame but ourselves :(

[Kuztimrodder]

One would assume that Pioneer would take notice of the PRS-720's popularity in the US. Surely they will profit from marketing the 4" version over here. Are there any DIYMA members with connections to Pioneer? A plea to Pioneer from a well respected car audio forum coludn't hurt either;)

[thehatedguy]

Couldn't hurt, but isn't going to do anything either....this forum has it's own reputation in the car audio world, and it wouldn't be favorable even if Pioneer gave a crap about we had to say.

[dBassHz]

Awesome. These mids would fit my install perfectly. Let me know when these are available for sale in the US.

[truejoker]

gotz some buds in Belfast, wabbit? :)

The fact that one of the most innovative-technology 4" midrange drivers (cone, surround, underhung motor, etc.) ... which also happen to be among the best-measured and best-sounding 4" midrange drivers, car and home considered ... can't be easily bought in the states should come as a surprise to exactly nobody :(

Most manufacturers don't even see a high-end market in US car audio ... and we have no one to blame but ourselves :(

ok. but from where can we by them or import them ? ther is store for driver in england ?
if you don't mind asking

[andycph]

best part is, grills are integrated!

[xencloud]

anyone know the overall diameter of these? Damn the IS300 and the lack of space above the midbass cutout for another small driver.....:mad:

[dBassHz]

anyone know the overall diameter of these? Damn the IS300 and the lack of space above the midbass cutout for another small driver.....:mad:

110 mm according to www.pioneerprs.com

[Whiterabbit]

gotz some buds in Belfast, wabbit? :)

I can be in belfast in one month :). But Dublin would be easier :cool:

I'm not really interested. But if someone else is and there is an easy dealer and that person wants to do the legwork of calling the retailer, then I can help someone out!

[khail19]

110 mm according to www.pioneerprs.com

Why is everything so tiny at that site? I can't read anything.

[VaVroom1]

best part is, grills are integrated!

wanna swap out ur 4.5" with this?? :o :D

[Boostedrex]

I heard back from my buddy in Japan. He will be looking for them this weekend at the local shops as well as the big shops down in Hachinohe. He said that if/when he finds them he'd have no problems buying them and shipping them over for us. Everybody keep your fingers crossed that he finds them at a good price!! :)

[dual700]

I can find some in SE Asia, but they are very expensive after shipping, duties, etc. Not worth it. :(

[WLDock]

I can find some in SE Asia, but they are very expensive after shipping, duties, etc. Not worth it. :(

That was my concern...The expense of trying to get them.

[aneonrider]

Ship them boat... slow, but cheaper.

[Boostedrex]

If someone can get them to my friend in Japan I can have them shipped to us via military post. That will eliminate the rediculous shipping costs.

[rekd0514]

Impressive, I still love my PRS mids. I don't think I want to go 3 way, but this makes everyone want to for sure!

[Rbsarve]

units are NOT mm ... the units are fractions of Xprot.

The TS-S101PRS is an underhung coil :) with length of 3.4 mm, in a 9 mm gap. Which gives a conservative, linear one-way xmax of 2.8 mm.

Thanks! Should be plenty then.

I could make some comment on the term underhung, but lets just stay with that it's nice in a speaker...:D

[fej]

Add me to the list of interested parties for the 4" mid. I am very happy with my 720prs set in my truck, and could see myself doing an all Pioneer prs 3 way in the truck with 6.5's in the doors and the 4/tweet in kicks. Hope someone finds a source for these things :)

Thanks for the review NP, awesome results.

[backwoods]

what would people be looking to pay for a pair of these mids?

[fej]

I actually remembered a friend with some import connections, should hear back from him in the next few days to see if he can locate these things.

To be honest, I would think that you would have to stay at least 10% below the cost of the Seas Lotus 4.5's, based on the fact that they will have Pioneer stamped on them regardless of how they test. If they had Skan or Seas on them I would bet people would pay $250 per driver based on the test results.

IMO you have to consider the cost of the 720prs set and work from there. But everything is negotiable ;)

[npdang]

There's a thread with the same measurements on all the Seas and I believe some Peerless and Rainbow drivers as well. Compare it to this one and judge for yourself ;)

[gbraen]

I wanted these in my car myself after all the nice testresults they have received. I asked a friend of mine about the speakers, but he said he knew i guy who have blowed 3 speakers already. The are rated only 15 wrms.

By the way, here in Norway they sell them everywhere for about $400.

Jerry.

[fej]

I have 164w RMS per driver from a pdx 4.150 on my 720 prs set (gains all at minimum) that is rated at 50w RMS per pair and have had zero problems. And Marv and a few others can attest that I like to listen to it loud ;)

Clean power and steep slopes save drivers :D

[gbraen]

I have 164w RMS per driver from a pdx 4.150 on my 720 prs set (gains all at minimum) that is rated at 50w RMS per pair and have had zero problems. And Marv and a few others can attest that I like to listen to it loud ;)

Clean power and steep slopes save drivers :D

Yes, but i was talking about the 4". They are rated 15wrms. I dont know which amplifier he is using, but can I can ask him.

I guess if they are used in a 3-way config they could handle som more power than 15 wrms.

Jerry.

[fej]

I have to state that the setup is run active at 63hz 24db to 2.5k 18db on the mid and 3.15k 18db up on the tweet. I personally believe part of the lowish power rating is due to the tweet being crossed a touch low in my opinion through the passives, and not being able to take a bunch of power down at 2.5k 12db (or so, never truly measured it but that number is close)

That being said I am sure that the PRS mid would handle 100w RMS clean with a steep slope on the HP. 250hz at 24db would seem logical.

[werewolf]

Yes, but i was talking about the 4". They are rated 15wrms. I dont know which amplifier he is using, but can I can ask him.

I guess if they are used in a 3-way config they could handle som more power than 15 wrms.

Jerry.
so the guy who keeps blowing them isn't already using them in a three-way system? I think we know the problem right there ... they are specifically midrange drivers, not midbass drivers.

Power is meaningless, without also specifcying crossover frequency and slope (already meantioned).

Further, it is meaningless to tell us the power rating of the amplifier connected to these midrange drivers. You have to tell us the crossover setting, slopes, and somehow actually estimate the power delivered to the drivers.

[gbraen]

so the guy who keeps blowing them isn't already using them in a three-way system? I think we know the problem right there ... they are specifically midrange drivers, not midbass drivers.

Power is meaningless, without also specifcying crossover frequency and slope (already meantioned).

Further, it is meaningless to tell us the power rating of the amplifier connected to these midrange drivers. You have to tell us the crossover setting, slopes, and somehow actually estimate the power delivered to the drivers.

Off course he use them in a three way setup, my bad.

I thought the 15 wrms was without highpass, but when you use that they could take some more.

I will check out what he use for crossover point and slopes and come back to you.

Jerry.

[werewolf]

Off course he use them in a three way setup, my bad.

I thought the 15 wrms was without highpass, but when you use that they could take some more.

I will check out what he use for crossover point and slopes and come back to you.

Jerry.

thanks dude :) it really will be useful to hear from someone with experience using them ...

[hessdawg]

i talked to a pioneer rep today. He said we might see by them next year.

[Boostedrex]

Did he give you a ballpark on what we should expect to pay for them?

[Rbsarve]

They are about $300 here

[bdubs767]

dang it really sounded better then the Scan 12m, Seas w12(ex)or (nx), Audio Tech 4" ??? Focal???

Makes me wonder how good the ODR speakers will be.....

[npdang]

Seas w12 mag... a little cold.... scan12m... a little warm... audio technology no poly for me bleh!! focal no copper in the motor .... prs mids are just right :) I'd say second on the list for me is Peerless exclusive 4", followed very closely by Seas mag, then Seas Nx.

[quality_sound]

Seas w12 mag... a little cold.... scan12m... a little warm... audio technology no poly for me bleh!! focal no copper in the motor .... prs mids are just right :) I'd say second on the list for me is Peerless exclusive 4", followed very closely by Seas mag, then Seas Nx.


How close to the Pioneer is the Peerless??? I'm thinking about swapping my 140/2 with some 4" cone mids.

[toolfan91]

How close to the Pioneer is the Peerless??? I'm thinking about swapping my 140/2 with some 4" cone mids.

Good luck finding a set of Exclusive 4"s...

[shinjohn]

Anybody know if these are available in ML China or HK?

[alphakenny1]

maybe check the pioneer asia website? probably has a list of dealers.

[quality_sound]

Good luck finding a set of Exclusive 4"s...

Are they that hard to find???? DAMMIT!

[azngotskills]

Are they that hard to find???? DAMMIT!

unfortunately yes :mad: :(

[gbraen]

Good luck finding a set of Exclusive 4"s...

Is it this one you are talking about?

http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=1

Jerry.

[zfactor]

i was told we prob will see them next year as well ...

[Kenny Bania]

So npdang, would you expect similar test results from the 5.25" PRS mid? If so, I mean we're looking at less than $200 for the entire component set. Just a thought. ;)

[Whiterabbit]

since its so cheap, no biggie for you to buy it and send him of the mids, right? ;) ;) Im sure hed be happy to test?

[npdang]

So npdang, would you expect similar test results from the 5.25" PRS mid? If so, I mean we're looking at less than $200 for the entire component set. Just a thought. ;)
I don't see why not... they're all built the same.

[Kenny Bania]

since its so cheap, no biggie for you to buy it and send him of the mids, right? ;) ;) Im sure hed be happy to test?

Who says they aren't already in my car? ;)

I just didn't know if there was something special about the 4". As in, they are fundamentally different in build from the rest of the PRS line.

[WLDock]

www.pioneerprs.com

[8675309]

sexy little driver

[Kenny Bania]

www.pioneerprs.com

http://www.pioneer.no/no/products/TS-S101PRS/print.html

[werewolf]

Off course he use them in a three way setup, my bad.

I thought the 15 wrms was without highpass, but when you use that they could take some more.

I will check out what he use for crossover point and slopes and come back to you.

Jerry.
any news? :)

[gbraen]

any news? :)

Yes, he use a Jlaudio 300/4v2 and Hpass 200 hz/12 db.

He has TS-T031PRS, TS-S101PRS and TS-M171PRS in 3-way setup front.

That about all I know for know.

Jerry.

[werewolf]

Yes, he use a Jlaudio 300/4v2 and Hpass 200 hz/12 db.

He has TS-T031PRS, TS-S101PRS and TS-M171PRS in 3-way setup front.

That about all I know for know.

Jerry.
thanks dude ... it would be a bit disppointing, if a user is repeatedly blowing these midrange drivers with a 75W-per-driver amp, high-passed at 200Hz. Of course, we don't know the actual power delivery ... how "loud" he's been listening. But it's useful info ...

[the other hated guy]

thanks dude ... it would be a bit disppointing, if a user is repeatedly blowing these midrange drivers with a 75W-per-driver amp, high-passed at 200Hz. Of course, we don't know the actual power delivery ... how "loud" he's been listening. But it's useful info ...

yeah sir....but even then 200hz at 12db...that driver is still playing well into the 100hz range and that's a tall order for even an experienced tuner to accomplish...my advice is chose a higher xover point or a steeper slope...

also I'm calling you in a few minutes...have your phone on...

[Kuztimrodder]

They are about $300 here

Is that for a component set or a pair of mids?

[gbraen]

Is that for a component set or a pair of mids?

That price is for a pair of mids only. SRP in Norway almost $400, but here you also can find it cheaper.

Jerry.

[Rbsarve]

The people over here using these has also serious problems getting these to play low. The advantage of a four inch imo should be that you would be able to reach 100 Hz as a crossover point an thus getting even the male vocals into one driver. But IRL most people using this has to have them at a higher crossover point then a Trius! :(

But from there on they do sound good. :)

I would however go with a 12M or RM120 any day of the week (depending on tweeter choise and listner preference)

[Genxx]

I do not see the point in trying to run a 4" down to 100hz. If you are using this in a 3-way 200hz should be sufficient. If you run a 4" down to 100hz then you are only using your mid-bass from about 60hz-100hz then your asking a 4" to cover 100hz to 3khz is a bit much.IMO If you trying to use 4" in a two that makes no sense to me. Maybe I am missing something here.

[Rbsarve]

You probably are, or I didn't explain myself properly.
What we on this side of the pond is trying to do to a much larger extent then what I have seen in the states is to use 3-way setup with high mointed midranges. In such a setup the transistion inbetween the midbass and the midrange is vital, since an error her will screw up male voices and lead to an unstable soundstage.

What we have found is that 200 HZ is not enough, and that a more desirable crossover point is closer to 100 Hz. A lot of people here are in effect asking ther midranges to cover a lot of the midbass range aswell, and pushing midbass action down in the subbass region (my 6,8"ers are highpassed at 45 Hz, where the 12" takes over.) So quite a few are rebuilding dashes to hold 5" mids.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa229/jensclaudius/oversikt070609.jpg

Hence my desire for a good low end in a midrange.

[bdubs767]

IMO now a days possibly even better to use a 6.5" driver. Most will play that 100hz range w/ better distortion characteritics then a 5" will, and with drivers like the Seas Nextel and tweeters playing so low it is very easy to blend a tweeter and 6.5" driver.

[gbraen]

You probably are, or I didn't explain myself properly.
What we on this side of the pond is trying to do to a much larger extent then what I have seen in the states is to use 3-way setup with high mointed midranges. In such a setup the transistion inbetween the midbass and the midrange is vital, since an error her will screw up male voices and lead to an unstable soundstage.

What we have found is that 200 HZ is not enough, and that a more desirable crossover point is closer to 100 Hz. A lot of people here are in effect asking ther midranges to cover a lot of the midbass range aswell, and pushing midbass action down in the subbass region (my 6,8"ers are highpassed at 45 Hz, where the 12" takes over.) So quite a few are rebuilding dashes to hold 5" mids.
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa229/jensclaudius/oversikt070609.jpg

Hence my desire for a good low end in a midrange.

Har du ødelagt en Nissan 200 sx?

[werewolf]

I do not see the point in trying to run a 4" down to 100hz. If you are using this in a 3-way 200hz should be sufficient. If you run a 4" down to 100hz then you are only using your mid-bass from about 60hz-100hz then your asking a 4" to cover 100hz to 3khz is a bit much.IMO If you trying to use 4" in a two that makes no sense to me. Maybe I am missing something here.

agreed.

I understand the goal, that a high-mounted midrange ... physically separated from the midbass ... "needs" to play deep down into the midbass region. But there's just no way a 4" midrange driver will play any midbass, including 100Hz, with authority.

If you need to physically separate midrange and midbass, better find a midrange much larger than 4" to avoid stage wander.

100Hz is not midrange. It's midbass. No way around it. And no way any 4" driver is going to play 100Hz midbass with authority.

This Pioneer 4" driver is a dedicated midrange. All specs seem to indicate that it should probably be placed in a kick, or other close proximity to the 6" PRS dedicated midbass, which seems well-optimized as a door-mounted midbass. And the 4" midrange should be crossed no lower than 200Hz ... probably even 250Hz.

By the way, i looked at the spec sheet again. Yes, it's rated at 15W power handling. But the spec also says the power rating is 100W, if crossed at 250Hz, 12db/octave. Which is entirely consistent with it's function as a midrange ... not midbass ... driver:

www.pioneerprs.com
www.pioneerprs.com/ts-s101prs.pdf

[werewolf]

IMO now a days possibly even better to use a 6.5" driver. Most will play that 100hz range w/ better distortion characteritics then a 5" will, and with drivers like the Seas Nextel and tweeters playing so low it is very easy to blend a tweeter and 6.5" driver.
also agreed :)

If you need a driver to play down to 100Hz, with any amount of authority ... don't even consider a 4" midrange driver!

[Whiterabbit]

I understand the goal, that a high-mounted midrange ... physically separated from the midbass ... "needs" to play deep down into the midbass region.

Help me out. Wouldnt the path length differences make this a staging nightmare? I can understand tweeters somewhat, very small midranges less so, but wouldnt combining a high mounted midrange with an extended bottom end be the exact opposite of what anyone who wants to achieve a high fidelity soundstage would want?

[thehatedguy]

1 seat wonder car...lots of TA to make it happen in the driver's seat.

[werewolf]

Help me out. Wouldnt the path length differences make this a staging nightmare? I can understand tweeters somewhat, very small midranges less so, but wouldnt combining a high mounted midrange with an extended bottom end be the exact opposite of what anyone who wants to achieve a high fidelity soundstage would want?
In short, the answer is yes. High-mounted midranges are not the ideal spot, for a car that cares about both seats at the same time. The path length differences are just not optimized.

But, if you only care about one seat at a time, you can use time delay to your advantage. It's my understanding that many competitions over-seas (Europe, Scandanavia, ...) rely more heavily on one-seat judging. But i'm no expert on their rules, someone else can verify ...

[Kuztimrodder]

also agreed :)

If you need a driver to play down to 100Hz, with any amount of authority ... don't even consider a 4" midrange driver!

Agreed. I run my OZ down to 160hz with no problems except for the lack of impact and authority I prefer. I'm going back up to 5 1/4 or 6 1/2.

[gbraen]

In short, the answer is yes. High-mounted midranges are not the ideal spot, for a car that cares about both seats at the same time. The path length differences are just not optimized.

But, if you only care about one seat at a time, you can use time delay to your advantage. It's my understanding that many competitions over-seas (Europe, Scandanavia, ...) rely more heavily on one-seat judging. But i'm no expert on their rules, someone else can verify ...

Here in Norway its one-seat judging only as far as I understand.

Many of the competitors have the speakers on the dashboard as shown in the picture above from rbsarve.

I doubt anyone here use the speakers both tweeters and midrange in the kickpanel, absolutely very rare.

Jerry.

[chadillac3]

yeah sir....but even then 200hz at 12db...that driver is still playing well into the 100hz range and that's a tall order for even an experienced tuner to accomplish...my advice is chose a higher xover point or a steeper slope...

also I'm calling you in a few minutes...have your phone on...

Couldn't agree more. I tried 200 Hz, 12 dB/octave and it didn't work well. 250 Hz w/ a 24 dB/octave slope works quite well.

[Rbsarve]

In short, the answer is yes. High-mounted midranges are not the ideal spot, for a car that cares about both seats at the same time. The path length differences are just not optimized.

But, if you only care about one seat at a time, you can use time delay to your advantage. It's my understanding that many competitions over-seas (Europe, Scandanavia, ...) rely more heavily on one-seat judging. But i'm no expert on their rules, someone else can verify ...

Actually the EMMA rules that we use over here is written for two seat judgeing, but here in Sweden we prefer the opinion of one skilled judge to the one of two mediocre, and there isn't so many trained judges around (big country, few inhabitants) so we mainly do one seat judgeing.
Thing is that these cars usually do well on the european finals anyway.
A shifted stage isn't that bad if the rest of the sq judgeing hits home.

I'll find out at he european finals I guess.

The molested 200sx isn't mine, it belongs to a friend in the Team.
I run 3" MIDRANGES in the dash. (Wasn't allow to cut into the dash in the car. Wife muttered something about past experiencies... :D )

And what I was trying to get across is that we are pushing drivers to their limits over here, aware of their limitations but wanting to accuive soemthing else. And anyone who thinks proper midbass cannot be done that way is welcome to listen in my car at the EMMA finals in Herning. :)

[werewolf]

Actually the EMMA rules that we use over here is written for two seat judgeing, but here in Sweden we prefer the opinion of one skilled judge to the one of two mediocre, and there isn't so many trained judges around (big country, few inhabitants) so we mainly do one seat judgeing.
Thing is that these cars usually do well on the european finals anyway.
A shifted stage isn't that bad if the rest of the sq judgeing hits home.

I'll find out at he european finals I guess.

The molested 200sx isn't mine, it belongs to a friend in the Team.
I run 3" MIDRANGES in the dash. (Wasn't allow to cut into the dash in the car. Wife muttered something about past experiencies... :D )

And what I was trying to get across is that we are pushing drivers to their limits over here, aware of their limitations but wanting to accuive soemthing else. And anyone who thinks proper midbass cannot be done that way is welcome to listen in my car at the EMMA finals in Herning. :)
no disrespect ... but if you're suggesting that you're getting "proper" midbass from 3" midrange drivers ... i'd love to hear it !!

[the other hated guy]

no disrespect ... but if you're suggesting that you're getting "proper" midbass from 3" midrange drivers ... i'd love to hear it !!

agreed.....and this is coming from a guy doing a 2way with a 5 playing from 4k-50hz..and I will be bold enough to say it's one of if not the baddest 5 on the planet...I know were my weak point is...

I also have a teamate and world champ using a scan 12m in his 3way xoverd at 250 and it's so damn loud it makes you blink..and he wouldn't ever think about x'ing the driver lower than 200hz

[WLDock]

Yeah, I would think they are making compromises for the sake of the inability to use a larger driver.

Why in the world would one build a custom dash, drop 4" mids in, then cross them over at 100Hz? Does not make sense. Put a robust 5 1/4" in or larger in.

But if you can't get a larger driver in...What else are you going to do? Try to get that 4" to play as low as possible.

As far as dash mounted mids...
I think they would be a pain in the butt in some cars as the mid would be right at your face. But take my car for example...300M. The far portion of the dash is actually farther back than the kick panels. This car might work out for dash mids if you could get them angled?

[werewolf]

Yeah, I would think they are making compromises for the sake of the inability to use a larger driver.

Why in the world would one build a custom dash, drop 4" mids in, then cross them over at 100Hz? Does not make sense. Put a robust 5 1/4" in or larger in.

But if you can't get a larger driver in...What else are you going to do? Try to get that 4" to play as low as possible.

no argument here ... but the PRS midrange just ain't that driver.

And that's no knock against the 4" PRS ...

[Whiterabbit]

where is herning and when is finals?

[Rbsarve]

no disrespect ... but if you're suggesting that you're getting "proper" midbass from 3" midrange drivers ... i'd love to hear it !!

Naw, the midbass is defenitly coming from the 6,8"-ers, I'm only saying that the setup I'm advocating can defenitly work. And the people doing custom dashes goes for minimum 5,25", but I was hoping the PRS could be a viable alternative for those who has 4" stock locations on the dash top.

[fej]

I agree with the others that a 4" midrange just does not have the cone area to play 100hz "correctly" in a proper soundstage. They would just lack the impact needed to round out the bottom octaves above sub level properly.

Having played around with everything but dash mounted mids now (well permanently mounted ;) ) I really think that a good 3 way either has tweet in A pillars, mid in the kicks, and midbass in the doors, or mid/tweet in kicks and midbass in doors. Pathlength means a ton to proper imaging IMO, and nothing you do electronically can overcome major pathlength differences and perform as well (at least that I have heard).

As a side note I might have an angle on a set of these 4's .. which of course means I would have to move the dcx-730 and ps5.2 over from the vette to make the truck an all prs 3 way. :)

[werewolf]

I agree with the others that a 4" midrange just does not have the cone area to play 100hz "correctly" in a proper soundstage. They would just lack the impact needed to round out the bottom octaves above sub level properly.

Having played around with everything but dash mounted mids now (well permanently mounted ;) ) I really think that a good 3 way either has tweet in A pillars, mid in the kicks, and midbass in the doors, or mid/tweet in kicks and midbass in doors. Pathlength means a ton to proper imaging IMO, and nothing you do electronically can overcome major pathlength differences and perform as well (at least that I have heard).

Some things are as true now, as they were 15~20 years ago :) Our hearing mechanisms haven't really changed that much in a single generation ;)

AutoSound 2K tech briefs are still available for purchase, last i checked! :D

[dBassHz]

My setup sounds good with a 4" midbass/midrange 160 Hz @ 12 dB dash mounted (Fs 54Hz better recognize). The only problem being it sounding a little muffled (PVC pipe not the best enclosure with such a large magnet). I can still get the good impact for rock but voices sound a little hollow.

TA is a must in my system but I don't compete so I only care about the driver's seat. :cool:

[jay]

As a side note I might have an angle on a set of these 4's .. which of course means I would have to move the dcx-730 and ps5.2 over from the vette to make the truck an all prs 3 way. :)

DOOOO ITTT!! :D

[alphakenny1]

jeff you need to share the hook up with me :D

[azngotskills]

yea...please share or if not just do a group buy :) Also im sure one of the ballers here would be willing to pick up the lot and redistribute with a small mark up, its an option

[Rbsarve]

I agree with the others that a 4" midrange just does not have the cone area to play 100hz "correctly" in a proper soundstage. They would just lack the impact needed to round out the bottom octaves above sub level properly.


You are correct in that they lack the needed displacement, pity there isn't anybody making high excursion 4"-ers :cool:
But take te crossover frequencies up to around 150 Hz and you are in another ballpark. Even the Trius can handle that in most installs at reasonable levels.

Having played around with everything but dash mounted mids now (well permanently mounted ;) ) I really think that a good 3 way either has tweet in A pillars, mid in the kicks, and midbass in the doors, or mid/tweet in kicks and midbass in doors. Pathlength means a ton to proper imaging IMO, and nothing you do electronically can overcome major pathlength differences and perform as well (at least that I have heard).


I too have played with a lot of stuff and was a die hard kick panel fan for years. This is a ten year old install I did with 8" and motor aimable tweets in the kicks. http://hem.passagen.se/gute/sys5.htm

However we have come up with ways of mounting the mids hig and still getting good pathlengths... :D http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1129&d=1165177712

[gbraen]

You are correct in that they lack the needed displacement, pity there isn't anybody making high excursion 4"-ers :cool:
But take te crossover frequencies up to around 150 Hz and you are in another ballpark. Even the Trius can handle that in most installs at reasonable levels.



I too have played with a lot of stuff and was a die hard kick panel fan for years. This is a ten year old install I did with 8" and motor aimable tweets in the kicks. http://hem.passagen.se/gute/sys5.htm

However we have come up with ways of mounting the mids hig and still getting good pathlengths... :D http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1129&d=1165177712

That last picture show a nice way to modify a car for stereo...

Do you have more pictures from inside?

[Whiterabbit]

did you modify your shifter to sit farther back? I've been working on this as well. It looks like you maintained the stock post and merely welded on an attachment?

[Rbsarve]

did you modify your shifter to sit farther back? I've been working on this as well. It looks like you maintained the stock post and merely welded on an attachment?

The Capri is pretty heavily modified, It has a different engine and gearbox then the stock Ford ones. (VW and Volvo, respecivly) so the shifter is a bit further back. Fully road leagal over here, all modifications approved by our MOT. :D

Last years install is pretty well covered in the Installs section (search for "capri") But the dash has gotten an full new rebuild since and we opted to go with the Seas reference kit to get better midbass. It is currently going through a strip down since it's going to the paint shop. But when that's done I expect to post some new pics.

[Whiterabbit]

sounds good. I have this on my list of projects, but I wanted a combined short shifter and move it back, which looks like it will interferre with the center console.

Looks like youve got no issues at all with that one. Whats with the second stick though? It looks like there are two of them in there?

[Rbsarve]

Thats a stick control from a Mercedes, handles turn indicator lights, high/low beam and such. Much easier putting them there then getting them to work cleanly on a 3 feet long steering wheel shaft....

[tard]

back to the driver..... i can't find anywhere that states the VC dia.. guessing by the looks, i'm assuming no bigger than 1 1/4". what comes to my mind is that an underhung coil on that dia VC, with a 4 ohm impedance.... is going to be pretty small coil wires. running into thermal issues for those who like to give their system a little juice.

Rbsarve... is that what's taking out your friends units?

[werewolf]

back to the driver..... i can't find anywhere that states the VC dia.. guessing by the looks, i'm assuming no bigger than 1 1/4". what comes to my mind is that an underhung coil on that dia VC, with a 4 ohm impedance.... is going to be pretty small coil wires. running into thermal issues for those who like to give their system a little juice.

agreed

[gbraen]

15 wrms, 60 wrms max, 86 db/1w/1m and cut off freq 250 hz/12 db

Not very impressive, no wonder he blew the speakers with a JLAudio 4x75 watt

[werewolf]

15 wrms, 60 wrms max, 86 db/1w/1m and cut off freq 250 hz/12 db

Not very impressive, no wonder he blew the speakers with a JLAudio 4x75 watt

If 1 watt gets you 86dB, 64 watts gets you 104dB.

When "impressiveness" is directly connected to "volume" alone ... "impressive" is in the ear of the beholder ;)

It's clearly an SQ ... rather than SPL ... midrange. I doubt you'll find such a beautiful BL curve in any other 4" driver. But you'll certainly find louder midranges :)

[gbraen]

Yes, thats right I guess.

But i like to play loud sometimes, nothing for me then...

[werewolf]

nah ... i'm not disagreeing with you guys :)

I think a fair summary for this driver would be something along these lines :

It's an underhung coil, which gives a beautiful BL curve (BL curve being the dominant cause of loudspeaker distortion, i think, according to Klippel). Copper shorting rings for low inductance, and low inductance modulation ... another cause of distortion. These factors, plus the innovative cone and surround (which no doubt contribute to low energy storage), are the reasons for the wonderful tonality noted by our esteemed host :)

The tradeoff, in this case, is most likely power handling (as noted above, an underhung voicecoil only 3.4mm high). However, this driver ... plus it's stereo brother ... should still be capable of 110dB SPL for vocals (i picked "vocals" because they are usually centered ... meaning, each stereo driver contributing about equally, so you've got twice the power/excursion plus twice the cone area for 6dB ... and the driver is pretty well suited to the vocal frequency range). However however ;) it may be that this driver does not overload gracefully ... if you push it beyond it's limits, it dies a painful, horrible death :(

I would consider 50 watts of McIntosh Powerguard, high-passed at 250Hz 12dB/octave, as a probable nice match ... for well-protected power :)

And i'd love to see a waterfall plot for this little gem ...

[npdang]

I'll get the plot for you this weekend.

[thehatedguy]

Is this the boner that can't happen?

[fej]

That install pic is crazy Rb :) I could never motivate myself to that level of modification, partially because I hide behind the "everything in car audio is a compromise" outlook ;) Nice work for sure.

Hmm .. I am going to have to do a little DMM work to find out how much power my 4.150 is really putting out at my max listening levels before I consider making the move to the 3 way in the truck. I would hate to have to pull the strings I am trying to pull to run across a set of these 4's only to pop one :( Although the tweet is surviving just fine at 3.15k @ 18db on 164w per.

And believe me guys I am working on trying to find a way to source these things ... but I am not sure the people I know are willing to acquire multiple sets of these drivers. I hope to know more in the next week or so.

[Whiterabbit]

I dont think it'll become a bandwagon. I think too many of the DIY croud will look at the pioneer logo rather than the plots when comparing the price tag to the revelator, then pick the revelator instead.

"why buy a pioneer when you can buy a scanspeak"?

[zfactor]

im trying to source these for you guys but damn they are hard to get your hands on...

[Boostedrex]

im trying to source these for you guys but damn they are hard to get your hands on...

You aren't kidding!! I have 3 different people in Japan searching for these things for a decent price right now!

[Whiterabbit]

whats the problem? finding them? or finding a price you are willing to pay?

[zfactor]

right now price imo

[Whiterabbit]

=\

[tard]

"why buy a pioneer when you can buy a scanspeak"?

pioneer has come up pretty good a couple years ago. i know it's hard for them to get recognition for it because of all those years of their speakers being the mainstream flea market type.

i can say i wouldn't get the pio's over the rev's because i get the feeling the pio's wouldn't live through the power i like to send things.

[Whiterabbit]

context, dude, gotta take things in context :(

[tard]

i had a semi diff point and just used your sentence. i should have explained better.

i know peeps here are aware of what pio has out. but i run into a lot of people in the main stream who still hear the name pioneer and think "junk". even when they hear what they sound like, they can't get past their old impression of associating pioneer speakers with flea market.

and i was adding my 2 penny's as to why i wouldn't get them.

[mst]

you can get them from www.hifispeed.dk,I have ask them and they send all over the world;the price mentioned on the shop is with 25% danish Moms (sale tax)
that will deducted for USA.I do not know the transport price (expensive,I know what I bay to get things from the states)but they can speak and write english
so those who really want them can get them,but at a price!

[mst]

you can get them from hifispeed.dk,I have ask them and they send all over the world;the price mentioned on the shop is with 25% danish Moms (sale tax)
that will deducted for USA.I do not know the transport price (expensive,I know what I bay to get things from the states)but they can speak and write english
so those who really want them can get them,but at a price!

[SOHCKing03]

That Danish site has them for $415ish when you take out that 25% mst was talking about. But shipping over here would be very costly too and you are looking at probably $600 or more total with priority mail.

-Brad

[Boostedrex]

right now price imo

+1 again. Finding them at a decent price point is what's proving to be difficult for me too. As soon as I do though I'll be sure to list it up so anyone that wants them can snag a set.

Zach

[Whiterabbit]

Focal Be3 = msrp $800
Genesis studio3 = msrp $800

These are in the $400 range? and measure better than the revelator?

seems like a bargain to me?

[WLDock]

...loooking at probably $600 or more total with priority mail...-Brad:o

Focal Be3 = msrp $800
Genesis studio3 = msrp $800These are in the $400 range? and measure better than the revelator?seems like a bargain to me?
Would love to test them against my friends Focal Be3. Hey!.....we need a test of the FOCAL Be3 mids.

[mst]

There is a online shop in Holland that apparently sells then for 146 euro(less then $200),but I do not know if they will send to USA.I will first try to see if they will send to France and how to pay them. Shop name:bobshop.nl (I cannot post the link, I have less then 5 posts)

[azngotskills]

i just emailed them as well :)

[zfactor]

i have a call in to my rep to see if he knows of anyway to help out

[npdang]

Updated with CSD plots.

[werewolf]

Updated with CSD plots.
thank you good sir! i agree with your comment ... seems to get rid of energy pretty well for a stiff cone driver :D Maybe there really IS something to this microfiber surround ??

[Arc]

How many people would be willing to buy these and at what price?

[werewolf]

A word of caution, as others have already been saying ... but worth repeating. The evidence suggests that these midrange drivers are NOT happy with assloads of power (maybe that's why they are not for sale in the SPL wasteland called the USA! LOL). And i think the old observation holds true ... the more a driver sounds "clean", the stronger the temptation to crank up the power ... cuz your ears aren't bleeding from distortion :) And it may be, that these little gems are super-clean ... right up until they explode :o

Be careful with power ... for anyone springing some big bux on these jewels.

[low]

^ thats good advice

[mst]

"We dont ship to France. We only deliver in the Netherlands or Belgium."
M**DE:(

[mst]

We do not any members in Holland or Belgium with too much time on there hands,who can ship some speakers (the price 146 euro is nice!!):D ?

[Rich.E.Rich]

MST, is the 146 euro per pair or for a single unit?

[gbraen]

MST, is the 146 euro per pair or for a single unit?

It must be per unit, here in Norway it costs $380, or 280 euros a pair.

[Rich.E.Rich]

It must be per unit, here in Norway it costs $380, or 280 euros a pair.

I figured as much, just a little wishful thinking :D

[t3sn4f2]

agreed.

I understand the goal, that a high-mounted midrange ... physically separated from the midbass ... "needs" to play deep down into the midbass region. But there's just no way a 4" midrange driver will play any midbass, including 100Hz, with authority.

If you need to physically separate midrange and midbass, better find a midrange much larger than 4" to avoid stage wander.

100Hz is not midrange. It's midbass. No way around it. And no way any 4" driver is going to play 100Hz midbass with authority.

This Pioneer 4" driver is a dedicated midrange. All specs seem to indicate that it should probably be placed in a kick, or other close proximity to the 6" PRS dedicated midbass, which seems well-optimized as a door-mounted midbass. And the 4" midrange should be crossed no lower than 200Hz ... probably even 250Hz.

By the way, i looked at the spec sheet again. Yes, it's rated at 15W power handling. But the spec also says the power rating is 100W, if crossed at 250Hz, 12db/octave. Which is entirely consistent with it's function as a midrange ... not midbass ... driver:

www.pioneerprs.com
www.pioneerprs.com/ts-s101prs.pdf

That's "MAX" rating by the way, so it should be relative to the 60 "MAX" and the 200 "MAX" on the 6 1/2" set. Does that mean that a good estimate for maximum nominal power at recommended xover point will be around 25 watts?

[mst]

MST, is the 146 euro per pair or for a single unit?

I think that it is for a pair; you have no problem with Google to find them at 200 to 250 euro;
Another Dutch shop at 168 euro:http://www.eshop.nl/product_info.php?products_id=147256 (the parcel weight is 3 kg, so it must be a pair)
at:http://www.beslist.nl/elektronica/d0000156371/Pioneer_TS-S101PRS.html
146 euro for two "winkels"I think that means two pieces
at:http://autoextra.fi/products/php/TS-S101PRS%20keskiaanet.php :199 euro
at:http://www.f1soundgallery.co.uk/cgi/searchPage.cgi?category=33:£170,that is apr.250 euro
at:http://www.chila-audio.com/HAUT-PARLEUR/WOOFER.htm :209 euro
at:http://autoextra.fi/valikkosivut/Pioneer%20kaiuttimet.php:199 euro
at:http://www.primaline.si/index.php?Itemid=73&option=com_conten:197 euro

Personally have given up and have just ordered a pair of 2 x Peerless V-Line/Vifa (TG9WD-10-04) = DKK 312,00 from Denmark with a transport price of 80 DKK (total about $ 80);I hope that they will work good with PIONEER TS-C720PRS there are in the post:D

[SOHCKing03]

"winkel" means store

It does not say on there whether it is one speaker or a pair.

-Brad

[LiquidClen]

Let's buy some in bulk

[npdang]

A rock can handle thousands of watts of power... but who cares? I'd be more concerned about how loud these things can play than how much power they can handle. Unfortunately, efficiency is pretty low with these guys and combined with a double or single layer short coil that's not going to get you very far dynamically.

[thehatedguy]

Word from Finals from the guys at Pioneer Japan was the 4s are coming to the states, and would be here this winter. They are working getting the ODR systems into the country as well.

[cajunner]

I noticed a site in the UK, "Checkpoint, something" when I googled, letting them go for less than 200 euros.

I guess they would be worth 150-200 dollars a pair, to upgrade the mids on a beefy bottomed two-way, but this power issue, is it fair to assume that pioneer is going by their torture test rating system on this one?

I know they go pretty hard at the coils, maybe the low figures are from the 24 or 72 hour burn test, an underhung coil can't be that good for that long without some serious issues.

I know some of the TAD stuff is rated pretty low for what some people pass through them in a dynamic signal.

[s10scooter]

Word from Finals from the guys at Pioneer Japan was the 4s are coming to the states, and would be here this winter. They are working getting the ODR systems into the country as well.

I saw them there looking around. I should have tried to ask the girl out. Maybe got some nice pillow talk.

[the other hated guy]

all this buzz about the PRS...wht about the ODR drivers?

[cajunner]

all this buzz about the PRS...wht about the ODR drivers?

I think the buzz is coming from the positive review by npdang, it's not often you see a driver with such a nice profile, shape and symmetry...

maybe npdang should test supermodels.

[the other hated guy]

I think the buzz is coming from the positive review by npdang, it's not often you see a driver with such a nice profile, shape and symmetry...

maybe npdang should test supermodels.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a whole other line above these drivers...I'm sure prolly on another level over these...just a thought...

[VaVroom1]

I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a whole other line above these drivers...I'm sure prolly on another level over these...just a thought...

IMO We get to see the result only if npdang got the drivers in his hands but I am not sure any of us would pay top dollar for a pair of pioneer drivers over scan, seas and the like.

[cajunner]

IMO We get to see the result only if npdang got the drivers in his hands but I am not sure any of us would pay top dollar for a pair of pioneer drivers over scan, seas and the like.

If pioneer makes a better driver, I don't care if they chrome the damn thing.

I'm in.

Grill cloth is cheap.

[Whiterabbit]

I'll bet diy members would be willing to pay $400 a pair if they were marketed carrozerria ;)

[Genxx]

If Pioneer would bring their highend here and it tested well with good reviews I would drop the cash on them. I really like these and would be whiling to do an entire Pioneer set-up in the future.:D

Now if Pioneer would listen to some of the other people out there rather than shooting for the lower end of the market here in the states they would find a entire new crowd to sell to. Cha Ching $$$$$$

[Boostedrex]

If pioneer makes a better driver, I don't care if they chrome the damn thing.

I'm in.

Grill cloth is cheap.

+1, I don't care what name is on a driver. If it tests and sounds good as well as having good build quality then it is a driver that I'll spend my money on. Be it Seas or Sparkomatic. Good sound is good sound, I don't care what company makes the gear I use.

[coffee_junkee]

I'm sitting on a spare BNIB set of the 720's, in hopes they bring the little 4's here sometime this century...

[Whiterabbit]

heres your guys task. find me a pioneer dealer in Yokkaichi. I'll go and ask if they carry the set, and can pick up pairs for those who want them.

Please try to find dealers close to the Kintetsu train station. If they are far away I may still go if they are nakamichi dealers ;)

[Whiterabbit]

so, I have a copy here of the 2007 carrozzeria catalog. I found the 5.5 and 6.5 inch PRS sets, but not the 4". what gives? is this a 2008 product?

[VaVroom1]

i concede i was drunk. i mean how can that be if we experment with $20 drivers!?

[arrogantt]

hey npdang, do you ever test to bjork at all? some of the production she has behind her (alongside massive attack) leads to some awesome results!

'joga' is the first thing that pops in my mind!

[werewolf]

so, I have a copy here of the 2007 carrozzeria catalog. I found the 5.5 and 6.5 inch PRS sets, but not the 4". what gives? is this a 2008 product?
no, it's a 2007 product. Check this Pioneer Europe webpage :

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/support_brochures.jsp?category_id=420

Click on the "High End Car Audio" catalog, it's in the 2007 catalog. It's just not readily available in the US ... only Europe and the Far East :(

[the other hated guy]

this is the pdf...scroll to the bottom

http://files.pioneer.eu/files/brochu..._CE_ODR_EN.pdf

[thehatedguy]

Yeah, like I said, I talked to the guys and girl from Pioneer Japan this past weekend. The 4s will be coming to the states this winter. They are having problems getting the P90x over here, but are planning on bring it to the states too.

I would bet if you looked to dealers south of the border, you could find both the 4s and the ODR processor...hint hint hint, or again, so I was told by Pioneer Japan.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm in yokkaichi jappan, my carrozzeria catalog is about as far east as it gets without being on pioneers doorstep!

but if the driver will be stateside by winter, thats fine.

There are other more impressive equipments in the catalog than these guys anyways, I;ve already posted.

[the other hated guy]

Yeah, like I said, I talked to the guys and girl from Pioneer Japan this past weekend. The 4s will be coming to the states this winter. They are having problems getting the P90x over here, but are planning on bring it to the states too.

I would bet if you looked to dealers south of the border, you could find both the 4s and the ODR processor...hint hint hint, or again, so I was told by Pioneer Japan.

yes to the prs..no to the odr....

they have to be certified ODR dists/dealers to order or get the product...and the US...Canada...and Latin America aren't

[thehatedguy]

According to Wilson Adcock and the reps from the Pioneer Japan factory, the ODR stuff was coming to the US. And if you looked hard enough in the right places, it was already here down south.

There is already a waiting list for the stuff.

[300Z]

I would bet if you looked to dealers south of the border, you could find both the 4s and the ODR processor...hint hint hint, or again, so I was told by Pioneer Japan.
Some 10 years ago when I went on a vacation trip to Paraguay and Argentina some of the local car audio dealer had the carrozzeria/ODR stuff and whatever they didn't had in stock they said they could order it. I got a list of everything they had and could order at the time and you could buy pretty much anything that was available in Japan and the prices weren't outrageous. But then again that was 10 years ago, things could have changed since then...

Leo

[Whiterabbit]

all this buzz about the PRS...wht about the ODR drivers?

Just found them. I'd say the $1000+ price tag will keep the buzz down.

at $1000+ for just the tweets. then again for just the mids. Then again for just the midbass......

[werewolf]

Just found them. I'd say the $1000+ price tag will keep the buzz down.

at $1000+ for just the tweets. then again for just the mids. Then again for just the midbass......

no worries ... what exactly does the 3" ODR midrange have, that this 4" PRS midrange doesn't? A lower Fs? I don't think so. A more linear motor? Doubt it. A higher price tag? Sure enough!

I absolutely LOVE the ODR headunit and processor ... but the speakers aren't showing me much, that isn't equalled ... or bested ... in this PRS line :)

[Whiterabbit]

curious, does the ODR radio offer any performance benefits over other available transports when not coupled with the processor? I found the RS-D2X here, no processor. looks very retro, but if there is no performance advantage over high end alternates here, doesnt seem worth it.

[sundownz]

So... can we get this PRS mid yet ? :)

[WLDock]

Have yet to hear a thing about them coming over. However, I would guess that Pioneer is going to treat us next year with some of the nice stuff. Those expensive PRS amps that are in the line this year sure do seem nice. Would be nice to see the PRS components and something to replace the P9. I don't know if the high end ODR will make it over? I am sure some of the Premier dealers and Team Pioneer members should know whats up?

[mikey7182]

I talked to the guy who runs Scott Owens' shop (Edge Audio) over here in Chandler and he had no idea what they were. I gave him the model number and he talked to his Premier rep. Apparently he couldn't get them for me, regardless of cost. He said they were only available overseas. I figured if anyone could get them, the guy who holds several SPL world records and runs exclusively Pioneer Premier equipment could pull it off! :o I guess not. :(

[sundownz]

I e-mailed my friend in Sweden to see if he can get them. I've seen them on a few Norwegian and Swedish sites.

[mikey7182]

Let us know what you find out... That might tempt me to keep my set! :D

[txbonds]

Please keep us posted, as I'd be interested in a set of those 4" prs mids also.

[WLDock]

Well, as some of you might know I have the 4" set that was reviewed here but I have no idea how Werewolf got these and he is no longer on this forum. I think he has an overseas contact or a direct contact at Pioneer? Just speculation. Anyway, the crazy thing is after I pulled out my temp install these are just sitting here in the box. I liked the stage height with them on the dash but I did not like the look of speakers up there. So, I think I might build kick panels for them? I tried them there for a hot second but need some solid pods to really see how they will work. Stay tuned...

[sundownz]

Talked to my Swedish friend and he thinks he can get them for ~300 + shipping. He said for a "kitt" - so I am making sure that is for two speakers - English is his second language :)

[hc_TK]

this one?
http://www.pioneer.no/no/products/25/131/201/TS-S101PRS/index.html

[chefhow]

this one?
http://www.pioneer.no/no/products/25/131/201/TS-S101PRS/index.html

Yup, those are the ones. Can you get them and how much shipped to the US?

[hc_TK]

they are about 330$ plus shipping from Norway

[sundownz]

So... if anyone wants them you have two potential sources. I'm sure I could get some pretty decent shipping rates if there was enough demand for quite a few sets.

[BeatsDownLow]

thats 300 for just the midranges?

[sundownz]

thats 300 for just the midranges?

Yah - 300 + shipping from Europe.

They are pricey... but not really when you consider their competition from Scan-Speak is almost 300 each.

[WLDock]

thats 300 for just the midranges?

Yeah, these drivers are treated a bit more exclusive around the rest of the World. I think they were only released originally to selected shops.
www.PioneerPRS.com
The seperates also seem to be priced higher. So, given the high MSRP and the limited selection of dealers and buying them in a different market....a $300 price...it is not too crazy. (Hey, these things measure ruler flat...in the Scan or better than Scan range!) The 720PRS set for example has an MSRP of $550but sells on ebay all the time in the $250 price range here in the US. If the 4 incher ever make it over, I bet they will be sold for cheap on ebay just like the rest of the PRS line.

You can look at it this way:
A set of SCAN 4" cost $570
A set of PRS 4" from overseas cost $300
A set of H.A.T. 4" cost $279
A set of Peerless Exclusive 4" cost $120 (No longer made)
A set of Dayton Audio 4" cost $53

All of the above seem to test out as nice to VERY nice 4" mids. Pick the weapon that your budget will allow.

On a side note....You guys looking to add a smaller mid to your 720PRS set and have space for a 5 1/4" and plan to mount them in the kicks and don't need a high crossover point because you plan to mount the tweet down low, migh look at the TS-C520PRS set...can pick up a set of these for $189 on the net. You will get more output than the 4 incher and don't have to pay the high price or wait till next year hoping Pioneer will bring the 4" over. Put the 720PRS midbass in the doors, the 520PRS mid and tweets in the kicks, and the second set of tweets in the pillars. Viola! Yes you can have a 3-way PRS set today!