Dayton Reference 10"HO

[chad]

I received My 10"HO yesterday just as the test enclosure was completed. The enclosure is .673CuFe Including bracing but not including basket/cone displacement. I roughly estimated that I would have 2/3 CuFu to play with in a fiberglass enclosure later down the road. Its cold out now so opening the garage door and whipping up glass is out of the question. I needed tunes and wanted to see how the driver would sound in those confines.

Here's some pics of the enclosure both finished and unfinished. The bottle in the last pic is to give a size approximation and to convey my favorite nightcap :) I really need to get a circle jig for my router as you can see, but it's a test box right?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1859.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1859.jpg)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1863.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1863.jpg)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1865.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1865.jpg)

Now for the driver:

I have held some substantial drivers before, some costing upwards of a thousand bucks. I must admit that for $100 that this is the best bang for the buck. There is great attention to detail and no rubber boot or other cosmetic bullshit, just a no frills driver. The rubber surround is thick, the cone is stiff and the construction is quite solid. Here are some pics of the driver.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1874.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1874.jpg)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1871.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1871.jpg)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1870.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1870.jpg)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1867.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1867.jpg)

And mounted up ready to go. Prior to mounting the enclosure was stuffed with just a tad less than 1Lb of polyfill. (sorry no pics of the white stuffing :) ) Again, lets keep any comments about my inadequacies of cutting a perfectly round hole to ourselves :)


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1877.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1877.jpg)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1876.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1876.jpg)



So it went inside to the studio, I have no amp yet for the car, it's on the way, I may try it in the truck though this weekend if weather permits.

The unit is comparison is really "no comparison". My studio sub is an Electrovoice EVX180B in an Uber HUGE TL enclosure, it's very efficient and can handle anything I care to throw at from current available from a standard 20A AC wall outlet. It's X max is pretty close to that of the 10" Dayton so I have lots more air moving with it. Powering the low end is a bridged carver PM350 supplying 1KW into an 8 ohm load. I would suspect not much more into a 4 Ohm load due to commutator loss on the Carver design. The top end is powered with a Crown DC300A and consists of a pair of Urei 809A's. Crossover is Modified Rane AC22B (modified for a /2 crossover freq, and quieter op amps.)

I parked the Dayton next to the blehemoth, and turned to tops all the way off to listen for air leaks. I did a damn good job, the cab did not whisper at all. During big excursion I noticed NO foul noises from the driver and it did a good job rattling everything in the house. With music it was tight and accurate, it mated up nicely with the Urei's but I had to raise the XO a tad due to it's comparison's sensitivity in the upper bass. I also had to obviously turn the tops down too, by quite a lot to make up for the efficiency difference. The enclosure had great low end extension for it's size and I would not hesitate downsizing to a pair of these and a lot more power for the studio app. Main problem wiht the small enclosure is overall efficiency it took an incredible amount of umph to get it to roll, as in, the EV would be making you sick. But in retrospect I built it for the car and I expect it to do much better there. There is absolutely NO room gain in the studio as it is in the loft of a log home and there are also no parallel surfaces.

I'll post more about in-car results soon.

So the 10" strengths:

1. Ability to handle uber power with stride
2. Engineering in build
3. Build quality (materials and assembly)
4. Ability to operate in a small enclosure and still kick it out in a big room.

Weaknesses:

1. Bigger frame than most 10" drivers. The grille I ordered would not fit.
2. 6 mounting holes instead of 8. WTF? Tougher retrofit, again have to modify any grille kit to fit.
3. NO DOCUMENTATION, the box had a driver and packing in it, nothing for my reference later or for the "reference notebook" Never seen this before? No parameter/dimension sheet included. The cutout diameter supplied in the catalog was too big, it barely made it (see photo's coming up) it will fit in a hole about 1/4" smaller if not more. Absolutely no engineering drawings or specs. A MUST for DIY work!

Now for the one and only bloodshed. I decided to cut the remainder of the t-nuts off because (I felt) the mounting hole was too big and did not like the nuts sticking out (who likes their nuts sticking out) so I had a 3" Pneumatic cutoff wheel and was on the last one when it bucked. My finger was in the way :( FYI skin does not spark like metal when it's being cut :) the pics do not convey the depth of the wound well, it actually did not bleed much due to the cauterization effect of the wheel, but the missing skin swath is a pain in the ass. It still thumps a little if I use it too much :)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/th_HPIM1885.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/HPIM1885.jpg)


AND while on a rant, when the -F- did T-nuts become sooo expensive? $3.59 for a 2 pack at Lowe's? Christ on a V-Rod! I'll buy elsewhere in bulk on the next project :) Maybe a T-Nut group buy! Too bad I bought 8 assuming the driver had either 4 or 8 holes like every other driver out there :)


Chad

[kappa546]

cool... but i thought the HO liked smaller boxes. thats about the size for a 10HF

[chad]

Yep, I can always make it smaller with wood scraps, they are a bit of a bitch to make larger :) It's a test box to see how small I can go with glass. I drive an 04 Civic Si, I need hatch space, glass will be into the spare area and floor built up (with spare still in it) or if amp does not fit under seat the amp will be in a false floor and the sub in a wheel well.

Chad

[chad]

BTW the glue that was used is Polyester glue on the box. I WILL use it again, good sticky stuff, it expands like spray foam to seal and will stick ANYTHING, including your hands, wear gloves or wear it for 3 days! After it dries just trim off with a blade and sand. There are 3 1.5" screws per joint countersunk and bondo'ed over, (not enough clamps or work time at "Casa De Chad"

Silica sand from a pool filter/ashtray will help remove it from your hands, but it's rough stuff.

Chad

[nickgonzo]

nice work!

[Beau]

What brand/name of glue did you use?

[dejo]

probond?

[chad]

Like probond, Gorilla grip (glue?) is another name. If you live in a dry climate they recommend spraying the wood down with a sprtitz of water and quickliy wiping. The adhesive uses weater in the wood/air as the "catylist" Elmer's makes some too... dammit hold on, I'll run out and look.......

Herre we go...

Titebond:
Polyurethane:
Liquid Glue:

4 Oz bottle was cheap and I used exactly half on that project, wasted a bunch on my hands too :) Way better than the standard wood glue on the project 2 weeks before.

There ain't one ounce of caulk or silicone in that cab and after punishment again tonight (I got it to distort, different amp) the cab is happy. Listening to it now, power hungry but very smooth.

Chad

[chad]

Well, I have had the Dayton in tha car now for 1 week and am ready to share some opinions. First off it's not a SPL sub if you want to use a conservative amount of power. I initially was concerned with it's output but now have decided that I love it! It is running off the high power channel of a Next VRz5.500. It is a very smooth, high fidelity sub. Although it is now mated to the stock speakers it blends nicely.

My first words to describe it is "dry" and "Effortless" It does not have that bumpy "car sub" sound. For example a kick drum has a wonderful initial attack, you can feel the batter hit the head and it GONE! Very uber cool to me! If the kick is ringy it does not over do the ring. Hip-hop is neat, if you are a musician you can damn near tell what synth or process they are using to make the drone. Lower bass guitar is clean and again effortless, the sustain in no way gets in the way of the pluck, you can hear great definition. In fact I may try the sub full range soon in the studio on an upright bass just to hear it :)

Just a quick note. I'll post again when it gets mated up to some real speakers!

Chad

[Finleyville]

How much power is the sub seeing again?

[chad]

240W from the 5th Channel of a Next VRz5.500. I have not benched this amp to see if it's really doing that though. Manual says it does. BTW my pics of the inside is at the Ampguts website.

Chad

[AzGrower]

If someone is wanting more BOOM factor, the 12" would be a nice step up from the 10"...

[AzGrower]

btw...you do know that the wood you used is not mdf but pressed particle board right? Sometimes that will yield some nasty vibrations...

[chad]

btw...you do know that the wood you used is not mdf but pressed particle board right? Sometimes that will yield some nasty vibrations...

Yeah, it's a temp situation, did not vibrate with 1KW of power going into it :)

Sometimes my fingers race to type MDF, we should all get into the habbit of seeing PFB :)

Chad

[chad]

If someone is wanting more BOOM factor, the 12" would be a nice step up from the 10"...


The car is quite small, and I feel that I could not accomodate the 12" in my plans of a stealthy install. The cab would be so small I think my gains with a larger driver would be wasted in lack of Cubic feet. The 10" does fine for me, you can feel it quite well, I get boom every weekend playing Rokstar with a big PA and a DBX 120XP among other goodies :) I need to retain nearly the entire hatch (for the goodies) and it's quite a squeeze! My CA18's will arrive today! Na Na NA Na :) I'll let you know my impression on them and the Morel's. Got a lot of work to do! Have a great weekend AZ!

[AzGrower]

Hey Chad, by the way you need a router and a circle jig. :)

[chad]

YES! I have a router and plan on buying a jig from PE.. Mine is not a plunge router though, that gets a little tricky but works. I lost my home brew Jig in the divorce/move. That's what you get when non-crafty friends help you pack :)

Got one for sale? I was going to go the harbor freight route, they have a couple in there for the right price for as often (not) as I use a plunge router.

Chad

[AzGrower]

Got one for sale? I was going to go the harbor freight route, they have a couple in there for the right price for as often (not) as I use a plunge router.

Chad

I like the Skil Plunge/Standard base combo...only $105 from amazon.com and the shipping is free. Its strong enough to handle anything you need it to, 2.25 HP, 11 amps. I made my own jig from plexiglass. Here is a link to the Skil router...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000C6DY0/qid=1138381827/sr=1-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-7494957-8887351?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013

Or they also offer a refurbed one, with the same warranty for only $78.77 (thats the one I bought)

[chad]

I'm ALWAYS hip to a refurb, sometimes trust them more. Thanks for the link!!!

Got the package today. Morels are in the pods after MUCHO tweeter flange grinding. And DAMN those CA18's are deep! Getting spooked. Home with a sick kid today so it all worked out. Pulling the car in now after a break to see if I can squeeze them in :)

I made my circle jug out of old metal parts and some metal dowel. Not graduated but infinitely variable :)

Chad

[honfatboy]

I made my circle jug out of old metal parts and some metal dowel. Not graduated but infinitely variable :)

Chad

Can you post a pic of that jig?

[zfactor]

i would use baltic birch or apple ply for the box personally super solid and almost no added colorations or as little as possible in my experiences...

[AzGrower]

Can you post a pic of that jig?

Here is my first version, doing some test cuts on some scrap PFB.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/518000-518999/518721_66_full.jpg

Here is what my second one looks like, although mine is in plexiglass
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/700000-700999/700618_4_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/700000-700999/700618_5_full.jpg

Although I have to say I just found a guy on Amazon re-selling the Jasper Jig 400 and 200 in a combo pack for $28 shipped! The model 400 was new in plastic and the 200 was only used twice. So I had to order it just for that simple fact...

[chad]

Can you post a pic of that jig?

Read #17 :)

Chad

[chad]

i would use baltic birch or apple ply for the box personally super solid and almost no added colorations or as little as possible in my experiences...

It's going to burn come April when the driver gets galssed in...... It' a test box :) The Baltic is for the big boys in the big truck outsise :)

Chad

[Pb2theMax]

Thanks for the good review. Sounds like this sub will work nicely in a .55 cu ft truck box.

Got any new updates to your opinion on the sub?

[skydeaner]

yeah, updates please! You said you aren't a boom boom guy, but how is the low bass extension?

[chad]

Off to do a show now... Will try to post tomorrow! Extension is L-O-W :)

[chad]

Back amongst the normal folk again :)

The opinions of the driver in the car are based on a very small car. You will not have the same results with this system in your Yukon/Escalade/Hummer :)

I worked and still do at times as a live sound engineer. I am noted for my tastes in low end within my industry. My tech rider even states this of sorts. My belief is that a sub is adequate if it will keep my pant legs in motion and/or disrupt my breathing at the mix position, whether it's 300' away from a stage or across a living room. That being said, the Dayton lives up to these expectations in this car 100%.

You will probably want to throw more power at it than I am. As for low end extension it's amazing. There are times I still go "Oooh" when it digs down there, it kinda catches me by surprise. It's a very "musical" sub for what that means, it never really catches a resonant node. Fretless bass sounds very natural when it's utilized in a slide down. I have it crossed at 63Hz and it allowed to play to 20. It will nail 20 cycles quite hard as discovered with some test tones. Again, no problem altering my breathing.

If you have a small interior you should be happy with one as long as you are not trying to knock small aircraft out of the air. You can always add another. They go in an insanely small box and deliver the goods regardless of it's very affordable price!

Chad

[Pb2theMax]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it would be a great sub for a truck. Small interior and small box volume. How does it do with a higher X-over? Like 80 or 100 hz? How steep do you have it?

[Pb2theMax]

I just noticed that the 12" Dayton HO only has a 5-3/8" mounting depth. :o

I wonder how it would do in a .55 cu ft box? ;)

[chad]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it would be a great sub for a truck. Small interior and small box volume. How does it do with a higher X-over? Like 80 or 100 hz? How steep do you have it?


The thing about a sub in my truck is tha it is inches from my kidneys, The feeling is more viceral :) But I threw the Dayton on the passenger floor and was amazed, yes it um, works very well in a truck.

Chad

[chad]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like it would be a great sub for a truck. Small interior and small box volume. How does it do with a higher X-over? Like 80 or 100 hz? How steep do you have it?

It's a 4th order crossover now, I would be more than happy to bump it up say, tonight/tomorrow and listen to it for a couple days if you'd like. JKeeping it low gives me a nice "bass up front" sound. But I'll try it higher for giggles, I'm game for anything!

Chad

[Pb2theMax]

The thing about a sub in my truck is tha it is inches from my kidneys, The feeling is more viceral :) But I threw the Dayton on the passenger floor and was amazed, yes it um, works very well in a truck.

Chad

My sub will be going in the back of my Double Cab, so it won't be pounding me in the back, but I know what you're talking about. My very first vehicle was a regular cab 85 GMC. I had every different subwoofer configuration possible over the course of the 7 years that I owned it. IMO, my three JL 8W6's was probably my favorite setup in that regular cab.

In my 05 Tacoma Double cab I think a single 10" or 12" in the back of the cab will be sweet.

[Pb2theMax]

It's a 4th order crossover now, I would be more than happy to bump it up say, tonight/tomorrow and listen to it for a couple days if you'd like. JKeeping it low gives me a nice "bass up front" sound. But I'll try it higher for giggles, I'm game for anything!

Chad

Yeah, if you would, give it a try and see if it starts to get muddy at higher frequencies. I rhink I'd like to set my RS180s at 80 or 100hz HP, if I could.

[grindkt88]

Hey just wanted to ring in to let you guys know that I built a .45 truck box with the Dayton 10 HO. IT Flat out rocks!!! I was brousing the DIY projects on
parts-express.com and saw that Darren Kuzma wrote in his Colossus project that optimum air space was .45 ... I had to get a pair for my crew cab chevy short bed. I'm running one right now with no crossover yet and only 200 watts. Its supper clean gets down to the 20 HZ range no problem . very smooth My doughter plays her pink CD and it rings like it was recorded for the taste of rollers that only want to move air and shake windows. then you put my CD's S.R.V. chili peppers ,pantera the bass is tight .it seems to carry both low and mid bass very accurate at the same time. Dayton really knows how to build a speaker. this speaker has me wandering why I have an 18inch in my car.

[chad]

this speaker has me wandering why I have an 18inch in my car.


Because it's flipping cool! Which 18 are you running?

Chad

[chad]

BTW does KT88 in your name refer to the Gold Lion? :)

Chad

[grindkt88]

Its a pile, that I had from 16 years ago That was sitting in a box untill about 3 years. when I purchased it I got a lot of flack from friends,because I could have gotten an Orion or Rockford for $10 more through a whole seller friend. But I made my choice because back then pile had the best true sound reproduction In my opinion. I'm not A db kind of guy I'm more of an Imaging kinda guy.
The kt88 refers to a big bottle audio transister tube. My favorite Guitar amp that I own has them in the power amp section. Love that big bottle tone.

[chad]

It simply called a power tube. Gold Lions are the "sought after" KT88 design. Many will pay hundreds of dollars for a worn-out set!

Which amp do you have? Old Marshall, Ampeg? 4 power tubes or 2? The 6550 is a drop in replacement, the KT88 is the mil-spec version but some of the newer Svetlana 6550's are pretty sweet and robust. I've built a few designs with KT90's but tolerances are slipping on them and it's tough to find a set that will work a long time. In their day a KT90 was a MONSTER tube! As of my current designs use KT88's or 6550's Every now and then I'll do an EL34 design but not often. My next bastid kid is going to be a 7591 amp like the really old 50's ampeg's used. It should be an interesting project.

Chad

[grindkt88]

The amp with KT88's is a Laney Supper Pro Lead modified by Splawn. The case is a Laney but the guts is all Splawn. My friend from www.rollsguitar.com traded one of his guitars with splawn, then I talked him into selling it to me. Its the 100w version butt I wish I had the 50w version. The thing is so freaking loud. With the pre at 3 and the post above 4 it makes anything not bolted down fall of shelves. thats with a clean lead sound.
I also have a Dean Markly Signature Series 60 with two 6L6's, Carvin Quad-X preamp pushing an ADA TS100S with 4 EL34's and also a little vintage Univox.
So the amps you built did you design them you're self? I've built a few
Preamps from hobby kits.

.....The just called a tube thing, I know I didn't Know you did .A lot of peaple don't know what I'm talking about when I just call it a tube.

[Diru]

Blast the glass!!!

Cool to see glass is alive and well here.

I miss my old H.H. Scott LK-150, but you best be sure I'm dead if you try for my Rocktron velocity valve.

Feeling sick? >> 12BH7 << drive it hard.

[Mike Hall]

I have been planning on using some Oz audio 250L's behind the rear seat of my crew cab F250 but I cant fit but one being these subs like airspace. I can come up with an easy 1.5 cu ft so two of these subs should be easy to make work. I wonder how these subs would compare to the 250L as far as output and sound quality.

Mike

[Mike Hall]

I just did some figuring and I could get 3 of these behind the rear seat of my crew cab F250. I could run them with my Xtant 1001d which i was worred about putting on a 250L. LOL How do you think 3 of these would work behind the rear seat in a crew cab?

Mike

[luvdeftonz]

In a cabin as small as that of a F250, output shouldn't be a problem at all. Honestly, a single 10" HO would give plenty of output for music...a trio would be a ton of output for those days you just want to bumpety-bump. With the already low distortion of a single driver, a trio would (for music) be free of any (audible) distortion...provided you set your levels correctly.

I've got to get the 15" HF ready to go for the home...

[Mike Hall]

You would be surprised and how big the cab of my truck is. It would be larger than most any 4 door car for sure. Im not to worried about output as much as great sound. I over the boom stuff I think. LOL I may just get two so I can make a cool box with some fiberglass work.

Mike

[luvdeftonz]

Well, the actual airspace in the cabin isn't as large as one would think (I'm a ex-Ford truck owner...before gas was $3.25/gallon ;) ). With that said, though, a good enclosure and proper level setting is what will make it sound good. Dayton already did their part in designing the speaker to sound good...the rest is on you and the install.

:)

[THASQGOTME]

I seriously want to give 2 10" Dayton HO's a try. I have a 2006 Ford F-150 Supercab. Does anybody here have any dimensions for an enclosure (0.75" MDF) that would fit under the seat? If not, where might I come across these?

I don't want to spend a lot of money on a good custom enclosure, or a little money on a piece of crap out of China. I would love to build my own, and know it's done right.

[Mike Hall]

I have 3 of these subs on the way along with a dayton 3 way front stage. I may only go with two subs so I will have a backup.

Mike

[chad]

You are going to love them! Of the casual listeners I have that know their stuff, all of them have loved the low end, clean, effortless, and low. Don't know about SPL but it's a damn good sub for SQ, I own ONE, multiples should do VERY well, watch your depth.

Cahd

[Mike Hall]

The sub does have a 5" mounting depth like it said on PE right? By the way what size should the cut out be? I have a boxed designed up which will fit all 3 subs. Each in a .45 cu ft which includes the sub and enternal bracing. Should I have a chamber for each sub or can i let them share airspace?

Mike

[Mike Hall]

Here is a drawing with dimensions of this sub. I draw up all my subs to make sure they fit in my cad drawn enclosures. This drawing was made from measurements I took off the sub so there dead on.


Mike

[Diru]

The sub does have a 5" mounting depth like it said on PE right? By the way what size should the cut out be? I have a boxed designed up which will fit all 3 subs. Each in a .45 cu ft which includes the sub and enternal bracing. Should I have a chamber for each sub or can i let them share airspace?

Mike

If you can make it seperate chambers this will help in the long run including the all important flex free cabinet.

[chad]

Here is a drawing with dimensions of this sub. I draw up all my subs to make sure they fit in my cad drawn enclosures. This drawing was made from measurements I took off the sub so there dead on.


Mike
Thank YOU SIR!~!!!!

You da man!

Chad

[ArcL100]

Here is a drawing with dimensions of this sub. I draw up all my subs to make sure they fit in my cad drawn enclosures. This drawing was made from measurements I took off the sub so there dead on.


Mike

Lol, nice. Is that A-Cad?

-aaron

[Mike Hall]

Yeah its autocad. I did this for my diamond audio 12s. LOL

mike

[BigBassBrent]

I'm curious if these has been any progress on the F250? I have a pair of 10" Dayton HO waiting to go in my F250 crew cab and I have been beating my head on box design. I really want to get them down firing under the back seat because I think it sounds better and I want to use the back wall for my amps. And thanks for measurement drawing Mike.

-Brent

[mikemareen]

are you guys sure ? 0.45 sealed for a 10" sub and it sounds good ?

[chad]

.45 is really going to limit that driver, I tried that, it needs more room.

[BigBassBrent]

.45 is really going to limit that driver, I tried that, it needs more room.

Really? When I do the numbers I get .334 ft^3 for a Qtc of .707

How doe the sub act in the smaller vs the larger enclosure?

-Brent

[chad]

Smaller..poor low end, poor efficiency

larger.....more low end (lower cutoff) if it's bumpy then EQ, you will need the efficiency.

Mine's in the larger AND vented. It rocks, I had to do a couple cuts to keep it from getting flabby.

Regardless of driver .334 FT^3 is a TINY box for low end duty. We are building a subwoofer here :)

I'll bet you that you will be unhappy with anything smaller than 2/3CuFt unless you are using an assload of them in a small car and have a BUNCH of power.

Chad

[89grand]

I'm having a hard time understanding how the size of the enclosure, regardless of how small it is, is an issue if the sub in question is designed for that size enclosure. If a Dayton has a QTC of .707 in .334 ft3 shouldn't that be pretty much ideal?

For instance, I just purchased a Diyma 12 and planned on using the recommended .5 ft3 enclosure which also yields a QTC of .707.

Are you saying this just in regards to just the Daytons performance or is your feeling across the board that all sub drivers should be in larger than enclosures that provide a .707 QTC?

I mean .334 ft3 is tiny for a 10", but I thought one of it's selling points was that fact, much like it is with the Diyma as .5 ft3 is very small too for a 12".

I'm confused be this, as npdang seems to feel enclosure size is not all that important. These two schools of thought seem to be at odds with each other.

[BigBassBrent]

Smaller..poor low end, poor efficiency

Regardless of driver .334 FT^3 is a TINY box for low end duty. We are building a subwoofer here :)

I'll bet you that you will be unhappy with anything smaller than 2/3CuFt unless you are using an assload of them in a small car and have a BUNCH of power.

Chad

I'm in the same boat as 89Grand, I just don't understand why a smaller box is bad if that is what the driver was designed for.

I will be pushing two of them, and giving each 500 W RMS, which IMO is a bunch of power. I came up with my box size and power from reading the dayton spec sheet, is this the wrong way to go at it?

-Brent

[chad]

Hey knock yourselves out. I put mine in a .75 CuFt enclosure and started adding wood a little bit at a time to see how small I could go. In a smaller enclosure I was just not digging it. Eventually I ended up venting it because I was getting the feelings of lack of output like many others have. Problem solved, now it flat out gets at it! Granted, I will admit, the graphs don't look much different from .66 to .334 but for some reason I was hearing a big difference in enclosure sizes.

After using it in a vented enclosure I will not go back. Maybe it has something to do with the 5dB of gain at 40 cycles and 4.5dB of gain at 30 cycles. Folks, 5dB is almost the equavalent of QUADRUPLING your power at that frequency. At 22 cycles the boxes have equavalent gain and the vented falls off fromt here, but i don't care about much of anything below 22. cycles anyway.

Before venting the amp ran hot as hell and even the dust dome for the driver was getting rather warm, excursion was HUGE. Now the excursion is MUCH less, the amp runs cooler and the driver does not get warm. Methinks that although most SQ guys cannot swallow the "vented box pill" that it's the only way to go with this driver and it sounds GREAT!

The graph that has been posted a zillion times... Guess which one is vented?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/cwahls/Civic%20Audio/DR10Compare.jpg

Chad

[MiniVanMan]

Like so many other things, the idea that ported is for boom, and sealed is for SQ is a misnomer. A properly built vented enclosure can sound very, very good. I use the Dayton HO 12's, in a vented enclosure, and I've heard many a sealed box with much more expensive drivers not sound near as good as these. The HO drivers are indeed designed for a vented enclosure.

Unfortunately, one of my 12's has become a casualty of the cold weather. I've been debating on trying a different set of drivers, but in the end, I have to say that I'm extremely happy with HO 12, and will end up just replacing the one I lost.

[chad]

What happened to the driver in the cold weather, it's nasty eh? Are you ready for tonight, let it snow! i notice that mine is very much affected by temp below say 20 degrees (for those not in the know, it's been single digits and below for some time here in the big IL)

[MiniVanMan]

Driver still works, but with a lot of mechanical rattling. Gonna let it warm up and see if I can mess with it, or if it fixes itself. Getting a new vehicle tomorrow, so everything is stripped from my current one. So, I've got quite a bit to spend money on without having to replace current equipment.

Not happy about the snow tonight. I've got a long drive to Kankakee and back tonight.

[chad]

I have notice decreased output in the uber cold but it's fine after the car warms a bit (like above freezing)

Have a safe trip, congrats on the new whip!

[kappa546]

Like so many other things, the idea that ported is for boom, and sealed is for SQ is a misnomer. A properly built vented enclosure can sound very, very good. I use the Dayton HO 12's, in a vented enclosure, and I've heard many a sealed box with much more expensive drivers not sound near as good as these. The HO drivers are indeed designed for a vented enclosure.

Unfortunately, one of my 12's has become a casualty of the cold weather. I've been debating on trying a different set of drivers, but in the end, I have to say that I'm extremely happy with HO 12, and will end up just replacing the one I lost.

what size/tuning ported enclosure is recommended for the 12 in a car?

[mikemareen]

how come nobody has come direct and answered this simple question ?

the sub specs equate to 0.707 in a sealed 0.33 cu ft box, according to the .707 balance of low end and upper bass, it should sound similar to any other 10" that equates to 0.707 balance whether it be in 0.33 or 1.0 cu ft sealed.

I'll tell you why.....the specs given for just about any subwoofer are all MADE UP. The specs are worth just as much as phony monopoly money.




I'm having a hard time understanding how the size of the enclosure, regardless of how small it is, is an issue if the sub in question is designed for that size enclosure. If a Dayton has a QTC of .707 in .334 ft3 shouldn't that be pretty much ideal?

For instance, I just purchased a Diyma 12 and planned on using the recommended .5 ft3 enclosure which also yields a QTC of .707.

Are you saying this just in regards to just the Daytons performance or is your feeling across the board that all sub drivers should be in larger than enclosures that provide a .707 QTC?

I mean .334 ft3 is tiny for a 10", but I thought one of it's selling points was that fact, much like it is with the Diyma as .5 ft3 is very small too for a 12".

I'm confused be this, as npdang seems to feel enclosure size is not all that important. These two schools of thought seem to be at odds with each other.

[chad]

It does not recommend that box in the manual, it has no recommendations. Maybe it sounds not so great because the motor is not strong enough to deal with that small of a box. maybe I'm grabbing at straws. Tell me why the plots look ssooooooooo similar in a .67 CuFt box? then tell me why it sounds Soooo much different in those two boxes. I'm saying I HAVE choked it back to see what it would do, the audible results were stunningly different then what modeling software suggests.

Cars are spec'd with a 0-60 time, but not with a head-wind.

Modeling software does not look at motor strength well enough IMHO. The Vas, Qts, and Fs have nothing to do with motor Umph, the box will have the same response with you tapping on the cone with your finger. Unfortunately we are building a subwoofer enclosure not a conga.

now riddle me this...... What's with the .707 golden number we all obsess about? Make it go as flat as low and loud as possible with an acceptable F3 or even usable frequency response. There's no reason to stress the motor of a driver or an amplifier to meet a magic number. Get it loud and apply cut-only EQ. When I design a subwoofer system, please note I said SUBWOOFER. I look at the last part of the curve and see how loud it plays low. Note the posted graph, I'd much rather see the one flatter and lower than looking for a Q of .707. There's no sense in limiting usable low frequency extension and efficinecy in a subwoofer system to meet a magic number. Many may disagree, but playing by my personal set of rules I have made plenty of very sucessful subwoofer designs and so have other designers adhering to these ideas.

I had no idea what the driver would do when I bought it. This is why I made an ugly-ol test enclosure to play with before I glassed it in. When mine gets glassed in it's (the box) up for grabs N/C, you pay shipping, but it's heavy. But I can tell you one thing. When I looked at .334 CuFt and the plot for .667 i said Naaawww Way to the .334, it's a hunch from expierience, the hunch was right. Too little airspace, and not enough motor/amplifier, at least im my apps. But even with 1KWRMS (real power, pro amp, plenty of juice from the wall) going to it the lower volumes of airspace choked it, then I deduced... not enough motor. It's a great driver, but it's not the second son of christ.

Chad

[89grand]

Well like in the case with the Diyma 12 I just bought, I have no way to measure the subs performance, and I don't have the wood working tools to contruct numerous enclosures to test it in, so I have no really choice but to take dpdangs word on the enclosure size. I mainly bought it because of it's claimed small enclosure requirements.

Hopefully it performs as I'm hoping it does in small sealed enclosure. Considering that I'm only going to be running 5.25's and I don't listen to music with 20hz tones, increased low bass extension at the cost of upper bass performance is not really what I want. I have a P880PRS so I do have some eq at my disposal if needed.

[kappa546]

well being a tc built sub, the diyma is done right imo for small box ie: high BL (just like tC claims for their house subs). As a matter of fact i beleive its equally important for quite the opposite application, IB. if i remember correctly my old SI Magnum D2 15 (original version) had a relatively low Qts at .3 and smallish Vas for a 15" at 140L but high BL and it was a beast IB. some argue that the BL value itself isnt important as long as it's flat and symmetrical tho

[chad]

Well like in the case with the Diyma 12 I just bought, I have no way to measure the subs performance, and I don't have the wood working tools to contruct numerous enclosures to test it in,.


I'm in the same boat, I just don't have the time, I have plenty of tools. I built a box that was 1CuFt and started adding stuff internally to shave the size down... like scrap wood. This allowed me to see what it would do before wasting my time on fiberglass for something I did not want.


Hopefully it performs as I'm hoping it does in small sealed enclosure. Considering that I'm only going to be running 5.25's and I don't listen to music with 20hz tones, increased low bass extension at the cost of upper bass performance is not really what I want. I have a P880PRS so I do have some eq at my disposal if needed.

Me too, this is why I made my last post. Note that the sealed does better than the ported below 22 cycles, and I said i could care less below 22 cycles :) Get me down to 30 cycles flatish and loud and I'm pretty much a happy camper! I'll slice and dice EQ from there and further reduce the workload of the amp.


Chad

[Mike Hall]

What are the specs on the ported enclosure you ended up with? I guess I might just use two of the three subs I bought in a ported enclosure behind the rear seat of my F250.

Thanks
Mike

[chad]

It ended up being between .667 and .7 CuFt and tuned to around 30 cycles. Could be 29, could be 31, but I do believe it's 30 cycles.

Chad

[Raptor]

I wrote a question in the general forums but you have been dealing with 10" dayons so I thought id post here.

I have floor stands with a 10" enclosure on each, each has 1.3-1.5 square feet I think the HO would work with that size, but do you think I could get away with the HF's? I would like to get subs reaching down to 25hz at least. I have no need for midbass.

Also, how big of a quality hit would I take from going down to a Quatro (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-550&scqty=1) or even DVC (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-485&scqty=1)?

Currently I have two JBL "loud&clear's" (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/Raptor550/JBLspecs.jpg). And I am hoping to get an upgrade that had marked improvement

[kornsined]

Hey Chad I was wondering what length and diameter are your ports?

[chad]

Hey Chad I was wondering what length and diameter are your ports?

ooh, I can't remember. Right now it's 28" at 6.5 sq inches, but that probably does not help much does it? There are 2 3" ports in the other box but I can't remember the length after the elbows :blush: and I don't have modeling software on this computer..... can you hang till tomorrow?

Chad

[mitchyz250f]

Chad, sorry if I missed this (long post) but did you ever try the sub crossed at higher frequencies like 80 or 100hz?

[tcguy85]

Chad, sorry if I missed this (long post) but did you ever try the sub crossed at higher frequencies like 80 or 100hz?

i have the same sub as chad in the same size box with the same tuning and same port area. so exactly the same thing. it does very well up top. i have it at 63hz/12db currently though. blends very well.

[tcguy85]

ooh, I can't remember. Right now it's 28" at 6.5 sq inches, but that probably does not help much does it? There are 2 3" ports in the other box but I can't remember the length after the elbows :blush: and I don't have modeling software on this computer..... can you hang till tomorrow?

Chad

i thought you were running 2 2" ports or 2.5" ports?

i'm running a single 3" port. around 24-25" long. 30hz.

[kornsined]

ooh, I can't remember. Right now it's 28" at 6.5 sq inches, but that probably does not help much does it? There are 2 3" ports in the other box but I can't remember the length after the elbows :blush: and I don't have modeling software on this computer..... can you hang till tomorrow?

Chad

No rush. I haven't even bought the subs yet. I just wanted to compare your ports to TCguy85's setup.

BTW TCguy, where did you get your ports? Partsexpress didn't really have much in 3".

[chad]

i thought you were running 2 2" ports or 2.5" ports?

i'm running a single 3" port. around 24-25" long. 30hz.

Doh, you are right 2 2" ports, I remember now that the 3" PVC elbows had too big of a bend radius and would have made the box HUGE.

The length of each tube (linear) is 25.84 inches. I guestamated the length by measuring across the elbow at 45 degrees and made it just a smidge too long, then I capped and filled a 25.84" peice of 2" and poured it into the bent tube I capped. Marked a line at the water line and had the right length.

Honestly I would do a slot, round ports take up too much room and are not an effective use of space, you can wrap the slot around the enclosure and take up WAY less space than I did..... you will need around 6.5SqIn of vent area for full bore operation.

Have you seen the most recent enclosure? The old one is in the shed.... there is an owl living in it now :o

Chad

[kornsined]

Do you mean your stealth box? I don't think I've seen it.

That's hilarious about the owl though. :D

[chad]

Do you mean your stealth box? I don't think I've seen it.

That's hilarious about the owl though. :D

It's a crazy long thread but it has build pics and history.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23845

Yeah, the owl, I think they are sooo cool so I'm intrigued.

I was less than intrigued when I went out to get it and as soon as I had my mitts on it an angry owl flew out. Lost some dignity there! It's a really rough box and it served it's purpose so I have no problem donating it to nature :cool:

[el_chupo_]

you ever tried it with more port area? Any noticable noise or chuffing?

Thanks

[chad]

you ever tried it with more port area? Any noticable noise or chuffing?

Thanks

There would not be any more chuffing, an increase in vent area reduces chuffing.

[el_chupo_]

There would not be any more chuffing, an increase in vent area reduces chuffing.

Yes, I meant in your enclosure. Your first one was ~6.25" of port area, and your current I think is about 10" via your build log. Any chuffing there? If there isnt, thats great, I just assumed that a smaller port like the 2" pipes would create noise.

[chad]

I went from 6.28 Sq in to 6.5 sq in and even in the small one there was no noise, Pay attention to your vent mach in Win ISD, that will let you know if it will be noisy for the most part. Wildly enough the lowe you tune the more you can get away with smaller vents for some reaon, I have yet to examine as to why.

[a$$hole]

A higher tuning is for SPL [ 40-45 hz ], you get louder the higher it is tuned.

[chad]

40 in a ,7 box leaves you with a wicked bump centered at 48 cycles and up 3.48dB and a -3 at 35

45 in a .7 box gives you a bump at 52 cycles up 5dB and a -3 at 38 cycles and a very steep cutoff after that

The way I do it yeilds a flat response out to the -3 point of 30.25 cycles.

higher tuning louder? Yes, but also probably not the best in terms of extension and workability.

[tcguy85]

i have no port noise with my 3" flared port unless i play stuff right at or below tuning with a good deal of power to the sub. i listen to mainly rock/metal. not a lot that's real strong down to 30hz or below so it's all good for me.

oh and i remember seeing a post asking where i got my port tubing. i did get it from parts express. bought 2 pieces of straight pipe, 2 elbows, 2 flared ends and 2 connectors. only used 1 straight pipe, the 2 elbows, the 2 flares and one of the connectors. i bought extra just in case i needed it.

this sub in the enclosure i have it in, suits my needs perfectly!

[chad]

i have no port noise with my 3" flared port unless i play stuff right at or below tuning with a good deal of power to the sub. i listen to mainly rock/metal. not a lot that's real strong down to 30hz or below so it's all good for me.



Rock/metal does not have much information in the 30 cycle reigion, I mix metal, and trust me, you can totaly convey the feel of everything with a HPF set at 40 cycles. Although I don't PREFER to do it that way but it works.

Chad

[tcguy85]

Rock/metal does not have much information in the 30 cycle reigion, I mix metal, and trust me, you can totaly convey the feel of everything with a HPF set at 40 cycles. Although I don't PREFER to do it that way but it works.

Chad

yup, unless your playing linkin park or something similar with some synthesized bass added in. or maybe that song comfortable liar by chevelle, that song has some lower notes in it. there are always exceptions but most metal doesn't have a lot of real low end.

[chad]

yup, unless your playing linkin park or something similar with some synthesized bass added in. or maybe that song comfortable liar by chevelle, that song has some lower notes in it. there are always exceptions but most metal doesn't have a lot of real low end.

Yeah Korn gets down there too as does a bunch of Manson stuff. I use a DBX120XP on a send/return for that growl live, but, if you don't have proper HPF's set those devices are great at turning 18's into screw holders, and sometimes not even good screw holders :D

Chad

[tcguy85]

Yeah Korn gets down there too as does a bunch of Manson stuff. I use a DBX120XP on a send/return for that growl live, but, if you don't have proper HPF's set those devices are great at turning 18's into screw holders, and sometimes not even good screw holders :D

Chad

yes Korn of course does too. what metal groups have you mixed for? just curious? sounds like a lot of fun.

[kornsined]

I guess it's pretty obvious but I love Korn. :D

[chad]

yes Korn of course does too. what metal groups have you mixed for? just curious? sounds like a lot of fun.

Oh, a few. Personal rule that I don't post client lists on the intrawebz.

[tcguy85]

Oh, a few. Personal rule that I don't post client lists on the intrawebz.

ah ok.

[chad]

ah ok.

Nothing against you or the forum, It was a way for me to turn over a new leaf and it also helps avoid the riff-raff of people PMing me and e-mailing me for bootlegs and stuff like that which I WON'T give out because those are MY memories. There are enough hints around :D

[chozar]

I can't seem to find the displacement of the 10" Dayton RS HO.

I just bought one, and calculate that a .33 cu ft box is decent, but I need to find the displacement before I make the box. Its arriving tomorrow.

[tcguy85]

I can't seem to find the displacement of the 10" Dayton RS HO.

I just bought one, and calculate that a .33 cu ft box is decent, but I need to find the displacement before I make the box. Its arriving tomorrow.

i think somebody the other day was saying .08. i think it's more like .06 or so though. the last ten inch sub i had had the same basket but a much larger motor structure and they claimed the displacement was .075. so unless THEY were wrong then i would have ot say the HO is about .06.

[CGG318]

Email from PE:

Hi Chris,

The total volume displaced by the driver is .08 ft³.

Thanks for asking,

Brian Myers
Product Manager
Parts Express Int'l
Dayton® Loudspeaker Division

[tcguy85]

Email from PE:

then i guess Treo must be wrong on the spec for my last sub, the SSi ten. it has a much bigger motor and is claimed to only displace .075.

[chad]

then i guess Treo must be wrong on the spec for my last sub, the SSi ten. it has a much bigger motor and is claimed to only displace .075.

It's not just the motor but how much the cone is inset into the cab also.

[tcguy85]

It's not just the motor but how much the cone is inset into the cab also.

what do you mean? the other sub i am talkin about uses the same basket, bigger motor. what do you mean about "inset into the cab"?

anyhow.... if Dayton says that is the displacement, then i am sure it's correct.

[a$$hole]

what do you mean? the other sub i am talkin about uses the same basket, bigger motor. what do you mean about "inset into the cab"?

anyhow.... if Dayton says that is the displacement, then i am sure it's correct.

Literally = how much of the speaker is in the box [ cab ][enclosure];)

[danssoslow]

what do you mean? the other sub i am talkin about uses the same basket, bigger motor. what do you mean about "inset into the cab"?

anyhow.... if Dayton says that is the displacement, then i am sure it's correct.

I assume he's saying that the shape and size of the cone will effect displacement inside of the cabinet. A cone with a more curvilinear shape would take up less space than a more conical shape would. A smaller surround would make for a larger cone. A larger voice coil would create more displacement than a smaller coil would. Etc...

[chad]

I assume he's saying that the shape and size of the cone will effect displacement inside of the cabinet. A cone with a more curvilinear shape would take up less space than a more conical shape would. A smaller surround would make for a larger cone. A larger voice coil would create more displacement than a smaller coil would. Etc...

yessir!

[tcguy85]

ok. good enough.

[kornsined]

Damn it! I don't know if I want to go with one of these in a ported box or a DIYMA 12" in a 1^ft3 sealed box. I hear good things from both.

[mitchyz250f]

Chad wrote;

"Rock/metal does not have much information in the 30 cycle reigion, I mix metal, and trust me, you can totaly convey the feel of everything with a HPF set at 40 cycles. Although I don't PREFER to do it that way but it works."

Does that mean that a sub-sonic filter doesn't do anything (read much) if you mostly listen to rock?

[tcguy85]

Dayton HO > DIYMA 12

honestly i have never heard the diyma 12. i hear it's good though. but i have a feeling i'd like my HO more.

[tcguy85]

Chad wrote;

"Rock/metal does not have much information in the 30 cycle reigion, I mix metal, and trust me, you can totaly convey the feel of everything with a HPF set at 40 cycles. Although I don't PREFER to do it that way but it works."

Does that mean that a sub-sonic filter doesn't do anything (read much) if you mostly listen to rock?

i do not, and will not use a subsonic filter. i don't think they are needed. if you listen to rock or metal i think you'll have a hard time bottoming out a sub if you're listening at normal levels. even on rap i still won't use one.

[chad]

i do not, and will not use a subsonic filter. i don't think they are needed. if you listen to rock or metal i think you'll have a hard time bottoming out a sub if you're listening at normal levels. even on rap i still won't use one.

I use a subsonic... then there's this trick you can do with the EQ, and it will feel like a 2X4 hitting you in the chest with well recorded metal/rock. Ain't nutin you can do for some of it (metal) for low end though.

[phatredpt]

I use a subsonic... then there's this trick you can do with the EQ, and it will feel like a 2X4 hitting you in the chest with well recorded metal/rock. Ain't nutin you can do for some of it (metal) for low end though.

And what would it take to get you to share that "trick" chad? :)

[chad]

And what would it take to get you to share that "trick" chad? :)

Hell no ;)
































































It depends on the size of your car and sheer witchcraft......

If it don't work off the bat, don't shoot me, You gotta play with it and use the car.


























With that you could conclude, do a subsonic a bit below tuning, mine's at 28Hz and make sure it's sharp. THEN bring the sub up to your normal "get at it" level nice and solid on the volume, not hammering, just good and solid. Now, make a really steep Q Parametric set it all the way down in freq, and dump it.

Now bring the freq of that filter up till you just notice it, then a bit more.

Widen the slope

Bring the sub gain up.

throw down....

What do you get?

Play with slope, and gain till it hits you.

Go for a drive, you may want to bring the slope out a bit or the freq down, but not much!

[mvw2]

Dayton HO > DIYMA 12

honestly i have never heard the diyma 12. i hear it's good though. but i have a feeling i'd like my HO more.

Haha, bold statement for someone who hasn't heard what he's comparing.:p

I've listened to the DIYMA (own) and the Dayton Reference 12" HF (borrowed from brother for a while) I can't comment on the HO version though, but I'll say the HO is a better comparison given the sort of box setup between both.

The Dayton is a very light, crisp, and airy subwoofer. I like to call it squeaky clean, because frankly it sounds squeaky clean like you could rub your finger across the notes and it would audibly squeak.:p The sub is fun to listen to at higher frequencies. The enjoyment is enough so that I really would love to build some floor standing speakers with them.

In terms of musical reproduction, it is somewhat unnatural. The squeaky clean sound, although nice to listen to, isn't quite realistic. It's very good, but not perfect. The light and crisp notes are also, well, light and crisp, too much so. The sub lacks a little bit of heft and presence. There's the initial attack and then little else. It makes the sub feel weak.

I had an oddity running the HF 12" sealed (1.5 cu.ft.). For some reason the low frequency output sounded a little muddy and disconnected. I'm not sure why. It seemed uncontrolled in some way, but I'm not sure why. At the same time, the sub really never lost control. If you cranked it up, the sub would play pretty happily even blaring along, clean and crisp. The lower notes were just weird. I would like to give it a listen in a ported box sometime (whenever my brother gets around to building his home theater). It may solve the issue.

The DIYMA is a very different sub. It is, for lack of a better word, perfect. Ok, it's not perfect, but it's very, very close in most ways. The sub does nothing that makes it stand out or otherwise make it sound incorrect. There is no coloration. The sound from the sub is completely transparent. I explain this by the fact that you can have the sub sitting in front of you playing everything from 0-200Hz, and you can't locate the sound with it sitting right in front of you. This is a very, very tough thing to do. Basically it doesn't do anything wrong. This means absolutely nothing it does actually grabs your attention and localizes you to it. Sound is clean, open, natural. The low end response is robust and full-bodied, if you've got the wattage and sensitivity(ported), meaning it's not compressed or constrained. Sensitivity is middle of the road, but around 500w will take you a long ways. My ears haven't listened to a more accurate sub.

But would I chose the Dayton or another sub? Sure, if it suited my goals and tastes. It all depends on what kind of sound you're shooting for. That's sort of why there's a thousand choices to chose from, to fit particular applications and taste.

[chad]

I need to try out a DIYMA, that's all there is to it.

[mitchyz250f]

I should get bonus points for getting Chad to share his secret.

[mitchyz250f]

Can you buy a seperate sub-sonic filter. My amps and corssover don't have one.

[chad]

Can you buy a seperate sub-sonic filter. My amps and corssover don't have one.

Ummmm, I dunno.. I thought there was one out there, some line drivers have them, Audio Control for example. You can build one if you are handy, it's a simple shelving filter. You can get by without it, it's gonna take a bunch of power to hurt that sub, but if you think you are gonna slam one in a big car (like a van) and hit it with a kilowatt you may be disappointed.

[chad]

I should get bonus points for getting Chad to share his secret.


Old Skool..... Make the enclosure efficient, EQ the shit you don't wan't out(subsonic), tailor a roll-off for the car, bring the gain up. how to use little power to accomplish a lot.

Even works for well thumpers if you play with it.

[mvw2]

I need to try out a DIYMA, that's all there is to it.

Yes, everyone should.:p Maybe if they were priced at $300-$400, more people would have bought them.:rolleyes: :D It'll be the last sub I'll ever give up.

Might be driving right by Champaign on 74 heading to Indianapolis in a few weeks for a little nerdliness. I can't say if there will be a sub in my car or not. I'm attempting subless, but the recent addition of a PG X600.1 and me liking the DIYMA may squeeze the thing back in my car. I might have to swing by and say hi if you're free Friday late on the way through.

[mitchyz250f]

The subsonic would be for two DYMA12, not the 10HO (sorry). I am a little concerned about hurting that sub, that's why I got TWO.:cool:

Do you remeber the name of the filter.

[chad]

The subsonic would be for two DYMA12, not the 10HO (sorry). I am a little concerned about hurting that sub, that's why I got TWO.:cool:

Do you remember the name of the filter.

Nope, don't remember. ANY subsonic filtering and low cut is going to prevent the sub from over excursion. Now remember this is with a vented enclosure that reaches way too low in a hatch, if you have the DIYMA in a small box then I would not pull back on the low end.

Also, are you sealed? They are more forgiving, see... a vented enclosure will unload below tuning so it can't control the driver as well, a sealed enclosure maintains control, it's not as critical in that app.

[mvw2]

npdang was gracious enough to address that issue by destroying a couple subs. The results were compression issues running such a tiny enclosure. There's only so much in terms of forces that the cone can support. The sub is a lot safer to run in a slightly larger box. For example, 1 cu.ft. sealed is safe to run past xmax off a whole lot of power, but a 0.25 cu.ft. box will destroy the sub with only a few mm of use and 400w.

Copy of his post off the DIYMA review thread:
Hi guys,

After more detailed testing and driving 3 woofers to complete cone failure, I can say that for a fact smaller enclosures will dramatically reduce powerhandling. I tested a 1cft box, a .25cft box, and free-air.

In free-air I can be very close to xmax for a sustained 30mins without any problems. Pushing it beyond that required significantly more power, and I could bend the cone instantly with a hard enough kick/pop or sustained low frequency tone at near xmech... at which time I could also see clipping indicators going off on my 1400w amp. With a cheaper sub, you'd probably fry the cone at this point.

In the 1cft box, it's almost as good as free-air. Your excursion capability is reduced somewhat though. It's kind of noticeable to the eye, but it doesn't seem significant. I don't think many people would have problems here, but again it's possible if you're really pushing the sub hard.... you can definitely tell that things become more "violent" and not as effortless as before.

In a .25cft to .5cft with the same power there is significantly reduced excursion, but you can immediately tell that the "sound" is much less effortless. I couldn't get the driver to move very far at all even with a full range high amplitude signal. Hard use here will immediately bend the cone. Funny I can see one bend after another appearing slowly, even though the sub isn't moving nearly as much as before. It also has this much much more "violent" sound to it, as if it's struggling in that tiny box.

So my advice, if you're more of a "sq" oriented listener who balanced their sub to match their frontstage, you should be fine with a .25 to .5cft box.

For those that like a bit of bump and window vibrating, you always keep your levels +3db or higher on the sub... I'd stick with a 1cft box.

[tcguy85]

Haha, bold statement for someone who hasn't heard what he's comparing.:p

I've listened to the DIYMA (own) and the Dayton Reference 12" HF (borrowed from brother for a while) I can't comment on the HO version though, but I'll say the HO is a better comparison given the sort of box setup between both.

The Dayton is a very light, crisp, and airy subwoofer. I like to call it squeaky clean, because frankly it sounds squeaky clean like you could rub your finger across the notes and it would audibly squeak.:p The sub is fun to listen to at higher frequencies. The enjoyment is enough so that I really would love to build some floor standing speakers with them.

In terms of musical reproduction, it is somewhat unnatural. The squeaky clean sound, although nice to listen to, isn't quite realistic. It's very good, but not perfect. The light and crisp notes are also, well, light and crisp, too much so. The sub lacks a little bit of heft and presence. There's the initial attack and then little else. It makes the sub feel weak.

I had an oddity running the HF 12" sealed (1.5 cu.ft.). For some reason the low frequency output sounded a little muddy and disconnected. I'm not sure why. It seemed uncontrolled in some way, but I'm not sure why. At the same time, the sub really never lost control. If you cranked it up, the sub would play pretty happily even blaring along, clean and crisp. The lower notes were just weird. I would like to give it a listen in a ported box sometime (whenever my brother gets around to building his home theater). It may solve the issue.

The DIYMA is a very different sub. It is, for lack of a better word, perfect. Ok, it's not perfect, but it's very, very close in most ways. The sub does nothing that makes it stand out or otherwise make it sound incorrect. There is no coloration. The sound from the sub is completely transparent. I explain this by the fact that you can have the sub sitting in front of you playing everything from 0-200Hz, and you can't locate the sound with it sitting right in front of you. This is a very, very tough thing to do. Basically it doesn't do anything wrong. This means absolutely nothing it does actually grabs your attention and localizes you to it. Sound is clean, open, natural. The low end response is robust and full-bodied, if you've got the wattage and sensitivity(ported), meaning it's not compressed or constrained. Sensitivity is middle of the road, but around 500w will take you a long ways. My ears haven't listened to a more accurate sub.

But would I chose the Dayton or another sub? Sure, if it suited my goals and tastes. It all depends on what kind of sound you're shooting for. That's sort of why there's a thousand choices to chose from, to fit particular applications and taste.

from the way you describe the HF, i feel the HO must sound quite a bit different.

[tcguy85]

mitchyz250f: you bought some HO's?

if you are worried about hurting them, don't! i have my single ten on 600+ watts ported w/o a subsonic filter being used. i have no worries about the sub AT ALL. i have pleyed some super low stuff through it and didn't feel that i was in danger of hurting it.

[mvw2]

Yeah, tough to say how different they are. It is a completely different gearing, but it's also largely the same subwoofer by hardware. If both versions where put in a appropriate "equal" enclosures, one would sort of expect a similar end result in terms of raw characteristics, short the differences in sensitivity and frequency response. In the end, you're sitting at a similar final Q with nearly identical components.:confused:

[tcguy85]

Yeah, tough to say how different they are. It is a completely different gearing, but it's also largely the same subwoofer by hardware. If both versions where put in a appropriate "equal" enclosures, one would sort of expect a similar end result in terms of raw characteristics, short the differences in sensitivity and frequency response. In the end, you're sitting at a similar final Q with nearly identical components.:confused:

yea. i have no idea. i just wouldn't describe the HO like you are describing the HF. thats all.

[kornsined]

mvw2 thanks for sharing your thoughts on what you thought of the 2 different subs.

[tcguy85]

mvw2 thanks for sharing your thoughts on what you thought of the 2 different subs.

yes, but keep in mind he was talking about the Dayton HF not HO.

[mvw2]

yea. i have no idea. i just wouldn't describe the HO like you are describing the HF. thats all.

Also depends on the enclosure, the car, and any tuning too.:p The same sub in two different installs will not sound the same. But yeah, I'm speaking of the HF version of the 12". How that compares to the HO version or even the 10" versions or 15", I don't know.

[kidwolf909]

Also depends on the enclosure, the car, and any tuning too.:p The same sub in two different installs will not sound the same. But yeah, I'm speaking of the HF version of the 12". How that compares to the HO version or even the 10" versions or 15", I don't know.

Do they make a 15" HO? I hadn't seen that yet.

[bobditts]

dayton HO 15" (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-469)

[MidnightCE]

You guys are really tempting me here. :)

[kidwolf909]

dayton HO 15" (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-469)

Shit sure enough... I had never seen that before. Thing looks like a beast! I love my 10 though, soooooo beautiful :D

[kornsined]

yes, but keep in mind he was talking about the Dayton HF not HO.

I understand.

I know a ported 10" HO will probably have more output then a sealed DIYMA. Either way they are great subs for cheap. It's all about tastes and how you tune the sub with the box.

These subs work good for me too because they're 4ohm. I've got a 2 ch but if I bridge it the subs will get roughly 600rms.

[chad]

from the way you describe the HF, i feel the HO must sound quite a bit different.

Have you heard the HO sealed?

It IS pretty clinical.... and if the HF is MORE clinical I think the review is totally valid in his observations.

[MidnightCE]

clinical?

[tcguy85]

yea i'm also not sure what is meant by clinical. i'm going to guess something about lacking output. but i could be wrong. i could easily plug my port and see how it sounds in .7 sealed. maybe i should try it just to know how it sounds sealed.

[chad]

yea i'm also not sure what is meant by clinical. i'm going to guess something about lacking output. but i could be wrong. i could easily plug my port and see how it sounds in .7 sealed. maybe i should try it just to know how it sounds sealed.

Do it, plug it tight, bring the gain up a tad.

Chad

[tcguy85]

Do it, plug it tight, bring the gain up a tad.

Chad

just stuffing a t-shirt in there should plug it up right? that should do just fine just to test it out?

i doubt i'll like the results as much as ported but i'll give it a try for a day or two if it's easy enough just to hear what it sounds like sealed.

[chad]

just stuffing a t-shirt in there should plug it up right? that should do just fine just to test it out?

i doubt i'll like the results as much as ported but i'll give it a try for a day or two if it's easy enough just to hear what it sounds like sealed.

Stuff it up really good, and seal the box, when you CAREFULLY push down on the driver it should move up nice and slow and resist you as much as possible.

[tcguy85]

Stuff it up really good, and seal the box, when you CAREFULLY push down on the driver it should move up nice and slow and resist you as much as possible.

ok, i'll try it one of these days just to see. don't know when i'll get around to it but someday.

[MidnightCE]

can anyone compare it in output to an IDQ10?

[chad]

can anyone compare it in output to an IDQ10?

I can't , was thinking about buying KDAME's but laxed out.

[little_devil]

I think i'll pick up two of these

[tcguy85]

I think i'll pick up two of these

go for it! you should be impressed.

[kkatiraq]

I plan on using one or two of these in a mustang convertible. Bassforms makes a custom glass box(s) I want to use. Separate box for the left and right side of the trunk. I plan to try it out with one, then add another if not enough output. Anyway, the boxes have .84 cubic ft left side and .7 right side cubic feet. Dimensions are 20"x13"x16". Any warnings against going with this? The boxes are sealed, not ported. Will use 600RMS per sub.

[tcguy85]

hmmm.... i would guess them being different sizes wouldn't be ideal. but then again it might make no difference anyway.

buuuttt, you could always fill the bigger one with some thing to take up a little bit of space so they could be the same size.

[kkatiraq]

hmmm.... i would guess them being different sizes wouldn't be ideal. but then again it might make no difference anyway.

buuuttt, you could always fill the bigger one with some thing to take up a little bit of space so they could be the same size.

I wil try it out with one first. If I am not happy, I will get the second one. I have a 600RMS/4ohm mono amp that pushes 1200RMS/2ohm, so expandability isn't a problem. I have limited trunk space, so I am trying to preserve as much as possible. Which box size would be better to try first, the .84cu ft or the .7 cu ft?

[a$$hole]

I wil try it out with one first. If I am not happy, I will get the second one. I have a 600RMS/4ohm mono amp that pushes 1200RMS/2ohm, so expandability isn't a problem. I have limited trunk space, so I am trying to preserve as much as possible. Which box size would be better to try first, the .84cu ft or the .7 cu ft?

Sand in a ziploc baggie will lessen box volume.
polyfil wil increase [volume as seen by the driver ].

I would get them and make the required adjustment !;)

[tcguy85]

I wil try it out with one first. If I am not happy, I will get the second one. I have a 600RMS/4ohm mono amp that pushes 1200RMS/2ohm, so expandability isn't a problem. I have limited trunk space, so I am trying to preserve as much as possible. Which box size would be better to try first, the .84cu ft or the .7 cu ft?

i'd get whichever side you think would look better in your trunk to your eyes. for some reason for side firing i prefer the look of the sub being on the left and firing to the right. not sure why though. :)

[chad]

Have you seen the most recent enclosure? The old one is in the shed.... there is an owl living in it now :o

Chad

So I'm working on this wideband project and needed ONE more set of naner plugs and had tho chase the owl out of the box to retrieve them. Boy was he pissed! But the little shit sat next to the shop door and waited on me to bring it back out. I gave him some more polyfill, put it back and he's in there now cooing like it's nobody's buisness!

Weird!

[tcguy85]

So I'm working on this wideband project and needed ONE more set of naner plugs and had tho chase the owl out of the box to retrieve them. Boy was he pissed! But the little shit sat next to the shop door and waited on me to bring it back out. I gave him some more polyfill, put it back and he's in there now cooing like it's nobody's buisness!

Weird!

oh god. thats so funny man.

[chad]

Country livin :rolleyes:

I guess I now have a pet owl..... which is cool :cool:

[kornsined]

Best box built EVER!!

[mitchyz250f]

Chad wrote:
With that you could conclude, do a subsonic a bit below tuning, mine's at 28Hz and make sure it's sharp. THEN bring the sub up to your normal "get at it" level nice and solid on the volume, not hammering, just good and solid. Now, make a really steep Q Parametric set it all the way down in freq, and dump it.

Now bring the freq of that filter up till you just notice it, then a bit more.

Widen the slope

Bring the sub gain up.

throw down....

What do you get?

Play with slope, and gain till it hits you.

Go for a drive, you may want to bring the slope out a bit or the freq down, but not much!


Chad can you discribe this with a little less slang, please?

[Generalg]

Anyone help me out in figuring out if the 10" Dayton HO will fit in this subthump box??? I'm looking to try and use a pair of the Dayton HO's in my GMC Crew Cab truck.

Specs on the box.
mounting depth: 5.5"
air space: .55ea.

The mounting depth looks to be safe. The volume? Enough? After seeing some pictures of this HO sub in this thread I'm not sure on the fitment into this box as the magnet is HUGE! SubThump recomends to use an eD 10" sub. So maybe someone with a eD and a Dayton HO can compare the size for me?


Here's the box.
http://www.subthump.com/chlt.htm


http://www.subthump.com/images/gmcars/LT/ltcrew-6.jpg


Thanks

[chad]

Parts express has all the dimensions listed for the Dayton, the Subthump website gives you max mag diameter and depth. One would be Iffy in my taste in that small of an enclosure, 2 should do just fine with proper feeding.

[chrisw85]

The HO 10", from my understanding, love small enclosures. Get two of them and feed them 600W to 1000W at 2 ohms and you'll be pretty happy.

Chad, how much does the motor of the HO 10" displace?

[matt62485]

i dunno for sure but i was guessing somewhere in the .05 region for each, thats what ive been using to account for driver displacement for them, im waitin on my 10 ho's to come in. still debating the ported/sealed route, looks like im going sealed, got plenty of power to throw on em, i was thinking .65 net sealed for each

edit: looking back PE says its .08 disp. ea. for the 10s, seems a lil big but hell whatever.

[BEAVER]

.08 indeed. .55cft. should be just fine, just don't expect a lot of output, from what I understand.

[matt62485]

w00t, made an update in my install log, just did a lot of number crunching since i posted this (the previous post) and i THINK i finally figured out my final enclosure decision...

edit: thinkng/reading > me

[ehkewley]

Bump!

Chad wrote:
With that you could conclude, do a subsonic a bit below tuning, mine's at 28Hz and make sure it's sharp. THEN bring the sub up to your normal "get at it" level nice and solid on the volume, not hammering, just good and solid. Now, make a really steep Q Parametric set it all the way down in freq, and dump it.

Now bring the freq of that filter up till you just notice it, then a bit more.

Widen the slope

Bring the sub gain up.

throw down....

What do you get?

Play with slope, and gain till it hits you.

Go for a drive, you may want to bring the slope out a bit or the freq down, but not much!


Chad can you discribe this with a little less slang, please?

I think this post was the last on a page and got ignored. Chad do you mind elaborating on this for us?

My best guess :confused: was that you were saying, add a subsonic filter near tuning frequency, bump up the gains, and then add a wide slope cut filter between the high and low end frequency ranges for the sub.. cutting instead of boosting?

[bld 25]

anyone want to compile the useful posts from this thread to somewhere else without the pages and pages of useless chatter? this thread really got OT!

[BEAVER]

Bump!



I think this post was the last on a page and got ignored. Chad do you mind elaborating on this for us?

My best guess :confused: was that you were saying, add a subsonic filter near tuning frequency, bump up the gains, and then add a wide slope cut filter between the high and low end frequency ranges for the sub.. cutting instead of boosting?

If I'm reading it correctly, which I may not be, he's suggesting a wide q cut from the tuning frequency(+/-) to the bottom on top of the subsonic filter. This would essentially remove the excess bass caused by cabin gain.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[MiniVanMan]

If I'm reading it correctly, which I may not be, he's suggesting a wide q cut from the tuning frequency(+/-) to the bottom on top of the subsonic filter. This would essentially remove the excess bass caused by cabin gain.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

That's most of it. What it's allowing you to do is get a bit more output from the sub above tuning frequency.

This will help avoid bottoming out the sub, resonance peaks, and excess cabin gain below resonance, and tuning.

You'll get tighter, more accurate bass, plus the added bonus of more output.

The drawback? No output below 30 hz. However, there's so little music out there that plays below that that it's not that big of a sacrifice. Plus, if it's something you're worried about, get a 15" not a 10".

In the end, Chad is saying that this sub can really THROW DOWN, when tuned properly, while maintaining it's accuracy, and articulate nature.

[BEAVER]

Thanks for the clarification.

[matt62485]

hmmm so what exactly does the Q do... i have the option of 1, 1.5 or 3 on my 9887... if ur referring to the same thing. its on the panaramic eq part. does it adjust something to do with the bandwidth etc? is it the same as the "q factor"

[BEAVER]

Q, in this case, controls the width of the boost or cut you are making. 1 is narrow, 3 is wide.

[Tambiengabriel]

I owned this sub and its a great, great sub for the price. A little less SQ than the IDQv3, but played lower and I thought more efficient.

[BEAVER]

I owned this sub and its a great, great sub for the price. A little less SQ than the IDQv3, but played lower and I thought more efficient.

To most, them's fightin' words 'round here...

[matt62485]

oh hell time to sell my ho's and get some idq's. lol jk, aint even got my ho's yet. robbyho said they should be here soon.

thanks beaver for the info. guess i couldnt hear the difference on the stock rears powred by the deck right now. still running wires, etc. slow process right now :(

[BEAVER]

And to think that I'm considering doing the opposite, offing my IDQv3's for HO10's...

[matt62485]

And to think that I'm considering doing the opposite, offing my IDQv3's for HO10's...

lol im keepin my ho10s, i was jk with the comment above. im still scratching my damn head trying to figure out how im going to port them. i wish ida realized how big the txa6004s were b4 i ordered em, ida went with something much smaller, but oh well. i was trying to keep some hatch space, but its lookin very unlikely now.

[bass_lover1]

And to think that I'm considering doing the opposite, offing my IDQv3's for HO10's...

Eh, I've got a DIYMA R12 here that may just replace the HOs :)

Gotta test it and see if I'll be happy with the output going from the HOs ported to a single 12 sealed. My guess is no, so then two will be in order :)

[typericey]

Q, in this case, controls the width of the boost or cut you are making. 1 is narrow, 3 is wide.

It's actually 3 narrow, 1 wide. ;)

[BEAVER]

It's actually 3 narrow, 1 wide. ;)

You know what? You're right, my bad...