Good amp / bad amp design examples

[CBRworm]

After reading through a couple of recent threads (you know the ones), I would be interested to see some examples of amps that are well designed and built as well as some good name brand amps that are poorly designed or built.

I myself would be interested in seeing arguments of the merits of an Arc Audio XXK design implementation versus the more mainstream alpine and JL amps.

I would be interested in an educated analysis from an engineering and performance point of view, not "I have used this amp for x years and it is at the top of my list" - I can do that myself.

It would be interesting to me to find out (for examle only) that Arc Audio amps are not any better designed than alpine or JL, or that brand x chinese amp while inexpensive are designed and built as well as Tru, etc.

Ok, get to it!

[CaseyWalsh]

Subscribed...

[dejo]

subscribed....with wood

[Rockin'Z28]

You'd have to be one smart person to be able to perform an analysis like this. How will you know if someone is just blowing smoke??:confused:

[6spdcoupe]

Subscribed and waiting for Jeff to chime in. :)

[Abaddon]

Subscribed and waiting for Jeff to chime in. :)

+1

[Weightless]

I just subscribed!

[SQ_Bronco]

If it'll help someone who knows what they are looking at, I can take very detailed pictures/give component values and counts for:

any old school ppi AM series amp except for the promos450
PPI pcx-4125 (very nice amp imho despite the bad rep that the PCX series had)
MMATS LM21** series (TO-3), D300hc, D100hc, LM4065
LP 8002SW, 5002IQ, 452iq, 2002
zapco studio150, z100, z300c2, z200c2
Orion HCCA225 and 425 (poptop), HCCA250 v1, poptop, and G4 series (might be an interesting comparison)
Tru C2
US-Amps DE3000, USA-2000
Lanzar vibe248 (epitome of crap amps, but it'll move a woofer)
couple of old alpine vpowers, forgot the model numbers
earthquake "thrust" 4.5, one of my fav amps (4x115 in a relatively small package with an attractive heatsink and the ability to bandpass ch 3+4 built in)

[Weightless]

I don't think you have enough amps for a thorough evaluation. ;)

[toolfan91]

I can take detailed pics of my Arc KAR 300.4 and 300.2 if need be :)

[Ga foo 88]

^^^ Do it please^^^ Do you run the arcs with the hds/ hivi 8.8 combo still?

[CaseyWalsh]

Does anyone have (or know where to get) a schematic for one of the aforementioned amps? That would really jump-start things.

[toolfan91]

^^^ Do it please^^^ Do you run the arcs with the hds/ hivi 8.8 combo still?

I had an RF punch 150 25TL on the HiVis, and Next VRZ 2.200 on the HDS... Im waiting to see how things pan out with this broke W200 I received, before I really get to utilize the KARs with my new drivers...

[michaelsil1]

I just subscribed!

Me too!

[thehatedguy]

What is so different about the Arc XXLs than everything else?

[Whiterabbit]

are you quizzing us?

I'm guessing: nothing? :)

wait, does reputation count?

[thehatedguy]

I was generally curious as to what made the guys think the XXKs were any different than other a/b designs.

If you wanted something different, the Linear Power power supplies did things a little differently. But really, when you get down to it, all of these designs aren't THAT different from each other when talking same topologies.

[CBRworm]

That is one of the things I started this post to find out. Are the XXK's any better/worse than the rest (the only reason I mention them specifically is that I have them in my car). Are there some amps that we are all overlooking through the Arc/Zapco/etc haze?

The xxk's seem to work. Better? I don't know - I don't have any other amps that will put out 320x2 at 4 ohms so it is hard to compare. If werewolf or Ezaudio chimed in and said that Arc amps suck I probably wouldn't pay much attention, but if they came in here and said that their design is dated and overcomplex; but that sundown (just pulling a name out of the hat) are better designed and built and are smaller and cost less because of the super star topology capacitor ring grounding system - I would be inclined to try something else.

Or if they said an Alpine MRV-F series amp is nearly as good as a real DLS A series amp, I would find that interesting as well.

I would really like to know which amplifiers are not worth the money ie is an old Arc amp better than a new Rainbow iPaul? Or pioneer Premier?

Unfortunately all of us are watching the thread, but no one seems to be contributing.

[Thoraudio]

Unfortunately all of us are watching the thread, but no one seems to be contributing.

Here's the rub.... most of us who've invested any time in the subject are weary from too many amp sonics wars. Nobody ever gets convinced of anything. And the truth of the matter is, the plainly (bolded for a reason) audible differences in amps (noise in any of it's various forms) have been removed from even the most basic of designs for almost 2 decades now.

there are few innovations to be had in the car audio amp world, that make a significant in-the-ear impact. With the exception of things like R.I.P.S., ICEpower, and full range class D's, most amps today are the same thing sold 15 years ago, just in a different package.

So, unless we want to go down that tired old road again, there's not alot to talk about.

Here's a couple of examples.

The Elemental 9.2 - rated at 100 x 2

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Elemental_Designs_NINe.2/inside1.jpg

The PG MS-2125 - rated at 125 x 2

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Phoenix_Gold_MS2125/inside2.jpg

Same basic layout, but one is 'just enough', and one is overkill. Part counts/quality higher on the PG, larger traces, gold, better filtering... etc.

BUT, at 75 watts per channel into a 4 ohm load, it'd be darn difficult to tell them apart electronically (I'll skip the tell them apart audibly question :) ).

[Abmolech]

I think it would be fair to say that a "good design" meets or exceeds its design specifications. There is little value in using "name brand" parts that contribute little or nothing to the advancement of the specifications. Sure you could "over build" a product, but you would place excessive financial strain on the company? The consumer could be left holding a power amplifier with no warranty etc.

The question is therefore what was the design specification?

[envisionelec]

Here's the rub.... most of us who've invested any time in the subject are weary from too many amp sonics wars. Nobody ever gets convinced of anything. And the truth of the matter is, the plainly (bolded for a reason) audible differences in amps (noise in any of it's various forms) have been removed from even the most basic of designs for almost 2 decades now.

there are few innovations to be had in the car audio amp world, that make a significant in-the-ear impact. With the exception of things like R.I.P.S., ICEpower, and full range class D's, most amps today are the same thing sold 15 years ago, just in a different package.

So, unless we want to go down that tired old road again, there's not alot to talk about.

Here's a couple of examples.

The Elemental 9.2 - rated at 100 x 2

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Elemental_Designs_NINe.2/inside1.jpg

The PG MS-2125 - rated at 125 x 2

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Phoenix_Gold_MS2125/inside2.jpg

Same basic layout, but one is 'just enough', and one is overkill. Part counts/quality higher on the PG, larger traces, gold, better filtering... etc.

BUT, at 75 watts per channel into a 4 ohm load, it'd be darn difficult to tell them apart electronically (I'll skip the tell them apart audibly question :) ).

Good comparison material. I'll need to take some time out to analyze them and draw colored circles in an image editor, but I can straight up tell you there are some really big differences in these two amps' topologies - and yes, it makes a difference in stability which you can hear.

[Ge0]

I used to repair amps as a hobby and side job. I've seen tons of designs by about every manufacture that was current up to about 4 years ago.

I've seen marginal construction and workmanship in some highly revered product. Surprizingly enough, I've also seen phenominal build quality in some Walmart brand product.

Here are some factors that play in the cost and quality of an amp:

1.) Circuit design. Is a cookie cutter design used that might add to noise and distortion figures? Will a big enough sneeze knock the product out due to electrical transients, product overstress, etc...

Or, has the utmost effort been put in place to reduce parasitics that affect the signal and make the device a robust product?

Adding quality more often than not adds to cost.

What feature set does the product have? How was this accomplished? Cheap or clean?

2.) Board layout. A clean looking board is not always the best board. Have design guidelines been followed to minimize ground loops, crosstalk, minimize signal run lengths, etc.. Are copper conductors sized properly? Do circuit blocks flow through the board in an orderly fashion or do they jump all over the place? Is the product packaged well, or is it a night mare?

3.) Are the things mass manufactured in an Asian sweat shop or are they hand crafted by skilled labor? This REALLY impacts cost. Does the assembly company have a reputation for quality or were they just the cheapest that could be found? Do they properly inspect and test their work? Is the environment contamination free? What build quality standard was used? What goal do they need to acchieve?

4.) Quality of overall package and fit/finish. Does the part contain a lot of plastic or is it machined from billit aluminum?

5.) Volume of sales. The more you build the lower your cost. The less you build the higher the cost. There is no working around this one. its hard for the Arc's and Zapco's to compete. They must be winning out in all catagories so far or they would not still be in business.

6.) Customer support. It costs money to staff a group of people to help you out. This gets driven back into product pricing. What is this worth to you?

ALL companies need to find the right balance between number 1 through 6 (and others that I'm sure some of you will add) to come up with the right formula for success.

I'll betcha ARC does not sell anywhere near as many products as Sony a year. But, that is probably not their goal (at least not when it compromizes product integrity).

We have seen numerous well respectd brand names fall to the dark side over the last 5 to 10 years. It's sad to see in some instances. in others I believe it was for the best. Yeah, they did sell out. But, if they can make more money, still sell a somewhat decent product, and have fun doing it, so what?

Ge0

[CaseyWalsh]

Hmmmm, looking at the PG I see a few things the ED is missing:


Common-mode filter inductor on DC input.
Fused DC input.
Litz-wound power trafos.
Good DC input capacitance to swamp potential conducted RF emissions back into the car’s electrical system.
Appears to be decent sized snap-in caps for the power supply rails.
I don’t see an inductor on the secondary side of the power transformer, so I assume it’s unregulated.
TO-3P’s FTW.
Phat power traces.
Double-sided PCB.
Fuses between power supplies and power stages.
Output inductors for stability into capacitive loads. (some may argue this affects the sound)

Cheers,
-Casey

[CBRworm]

If pictures will help, here are a couple more . . .

You can probably identify them by the boards, but in case not, the long one is XXK2500, the smaller one Mmats SQ2150

[thehatedguy]

I'm still not getting what you guys are trying to accomplish by this thread.

[chad]

Hmmmm, looking at the PG I see a few things the ED is missing:


Common-mode filter inductor on DC input.
Fused DC input.
Litz-wound power trafos.
Good DC input capacitance to swamp potential conducted RF emissions back into the car’s electrical system.
Appears to be decent sized snap-in caps for the power supply rails.
I don’t see an inductor on the secondary side of the power transformer, so I assume it’s unregulated.
TO-3P’s FTW.
Phat power traces.
Double-sided PCB.
Fuses between power supplies and power stages.
Output inductors for stability into capacitive loads. (some may argue this affects the sound)

Cheers,
-Casey

Unfortunately Toshioba has DC'd the 2SC3281 and 2SA1302, they were great devices and the current market is swamped with counterfeits :(

Double sided PCB's can be good and bad, it depends on the dsigner. I have seen poorly designed boards cause tons of issues using the double sided technique. Mesa even had one (gee-tar amp) that would blow itself up due to oscillations ;)

[CBRworm]

"thehatedguy: I'm still not getting what you guys are trying to accomplish by this thread. "

Knowledge.

[Thoraudio]

"thehatedguy: I'm still not getting what you guys are trying to accomplish by this thread. "

Knowledge.

The thing is, it will come down to the same argument as always.... what is audible?

I have no question in my mind that the PG amp pictured is better 'designed', used top quality components, works better in high demand situations, and retains a significant bit of it's value.... the real question (and beaten well past dead horse), is 'are there audible differences when both amps are operated, within specs, at the same levels?'

And that's the question that nobody will agree on the answer.

[CBRworm]

I know the audibility debate will continue for ever, but if there is a design that is particularly unstable, or prone to reject noise better, or create less noise it would be good to know. Especially if the outcome is that brand X chinese amps are better designed and built than brand Y name brand amps with a good following.

Obviously Arc has a chinese build house that makes all their amps, supposedly they are designed by Zef. Does the good design make up for bad manufacturing? Is the manufacturing better than USA? I understand that DLS are made in china, but also have a very good reputation. Why is that different from Pyramid which I had good luck with once a long time ago, but has a horrible reputation. Sony - I have never had good results with sony's lower line stuff, but their high end stuff seems much better than average (IMO). Are they built differently? Different quality components? Different factories w/ different work ethics? Tighter tolerance inspection?

Where does JL fit into all this?



What would be interesting to end up with is a list of say, Tier 1 amps through Tier 5. These would only be the top of the line that most of the people on this board would buy. Pyramid would not be on the list.

Under Tier 3 you could have DLS A series amps listed and what makes them better than the Tier 4 amps, or what are they lacking compared to Tier 2.

Tier 1 could be Brax and Tru (if they are better than the others) and it could say they are there because of a, b, and c. There could also be a performance per dollar ratio that would quickly deter me from buying a Brax if it p/d ratio was not as good as a JL slash series amp.

If this was able to be done, you could look and see where a PDX ranked relative to a Sony ES or Alpine F1.

It may not be related as much to sound quality as soundness of design. What amps have oversize power supply components that can source 500 amp transients to a 100x2 amp. What amps have output transistors that are known to be class leading, or bad. Thermal management - do they turn down the volume when they get too hot or do they not get too hot to begin with. What amps are known for blowing speakers when a FET fails versus amps that have a fuse or other DC protection that turns them off before damage is done to the speaker or car. What amps can drive a dead short and not be damaged. Which ones (like one I recently had in my car) are known to blow up with no load and the input muted?

[Ge0]

I'm still not getting what you guys are trying to accomplish by this thread.

I don't know about the rest of them, but, I'm trying to show everyone how big my dick is.

Ge0

[CBRworm]

Here is an example of what I am thinking,

http://www.jonnyguru.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103

[BassBaller5]

I can take detailed pics of my Arc KAR 300.4 and 300.2 if need be :)

ditto w/ my RF 300.2 and Sundown 100.4

[envisionelec]

Double sided PCB's can be good and bad, it depends on the dsigner. I have seen poorly designed boards cause tons of issues using the double sided technique. Mesa even had one (gee-tar amp) that would blow itself up due to oscillations ;)

ON semiconductor produces good replacements for the old Toshibas these days. Highly doubtful that oscillation was caused by a double sided circuit board...but I digress.

Anyway, regarding the photos below; I've marked them up to delineate some key one-on-one differences...I'm leaving the power supply differences out since these are harder to define without measuring certain aspects.
It is my belief that if you are going to design an onboard crossover in your amp, do it well - not as cheaply as possible. The eD amp defines cheap with its standard fare JRC4558 SIP opamps and poor-tracking "fake Alps" trim pots. You get a serious stack-up error with these each having at least1dB of interchannel error. This is the A#1 reason that really good amps have that "magic" imaging - the channels are matched from the outset.
The eD is a prime example of an Emitter Follower designed amplifier. These can sound very good. But there are definite drawbacks.

1) The bias point can only be set for the temperature of output transistors or the driver transistors, but not both. In the case of the eD -the bias point is fixed and cannot be changed during production...

2) Distortion rises with increased load (ie: decreased impedance).

3) Idle temperatures are 5-10 times higher than with a Complementary Feedback (CF) design.

But, even as Randy Slone states in his book "High Power Audio Amplifier Construction Manual", the OPS (output section) design doesn't make or break a good amplifier. It's the input differential amp and VA that will do that.

The clear differences (and those I pointed out in the first edition of the Amp Guts thread) lie in how the amplifiers handle these key circuits. On the Phoenix Gold amplifier, the designers purposefully place the two LTP (long-tail pairs) transistors face to face for close thermal proximity. This is vitally important as different heating in each transistor will cause current imbalances. PG also uses current mirrors and a separate voltage source for those current mirrors, ensuring that the current remains constant during all operating circumstances. The eD has lots of space between those critical Diff Amp transistors...
Worse, the eD fails to regulate the current through the LTPs (by using resistor dividers rather than current mirrors). This is common practice with low-end amplifiers - and the very design that "we joked about" in the 1990s with Jensen, Boss, Pyramid... amplifiers. This is a very audible issue that presents itself as IMD (intermodulation distortion) and an audible "smearing" of the sound.

A couple things to point out on the PG Amps:

1) The PCB is gold plated but there is no soldermask - no soldermask = easy to short out when strands of wire fall in. Bad design. Fortunately, there are clear soldermasks on the market today. The gold contributes to cosmetics, not conductivity.

2) The 2 side 2oz copper FR4 board has far, far more current capacity than the eD (or similar boards with loads of jumpers). Single-point jumpers are notoriously unreliable because of the vibration present in cars. Not to mention noisy (oops, I said it) when the signal is being moved above and below the board, unsheilded. It works OK, but is not good design practice if you care.

3) Flyback diodes reduce inductive spiking that cause output transistors to fail. This is especially critical during clipping when the transistors' base drive is removed (via protection circuits) and the inductance of the speaker or speaker cable continues to drive current back into the transistors, reverse biasing them and causing them to blow.

4) Thermal Overload cutoff switch. I didn't realize these weren't still being put into amps. eD? (Maybe it's hidden)...

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/envisionelec/inside2.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/envisionelec/inside1.jpg

[werewolf]

Thoraudio and Abmolech are right ... this is an old, dead, beaten horse :(

The thread will most likely spiral into personal bias and opinions, with little-to-no correlation to specifications. We'll hear about "noise" that doesn't show up in SNR specs, stability "problems" that don't show up in harmonic or intermod distortion specs, poor capacitor or resistor choices that don't manifest in worse frequency response, noise or distortion, supposed "issues" with damping factor and slew rate that will most likely demostrate, once again, that nobody even understands what these specs mean, let alone how to measure them, etc.

It's old, tired stuff. The simple FACT is (yes, i use that word with full knowledge of it's meaning), amplifier sonics are completely captured by a simple set of specs, known for decades in the audio biz. So if any of the alleged "design issues" don't impact one of these specs, they won't impact the sound. Religious belief otherwise, will never go away ... hence a new thread every year or so.

Relibaility, on the other hand, may be worthy of discussion. But once again, anecdotes based on hearsay or personal opinion hold little value ... to anyone.

My advice : if anyone wants to offer a meaningful analysis, please highlight an amplifier "design problem", THEN demonstrate how it degrades performance to well-known audible specifications. Only then can the audibility of supposed issues be understood and COMPARED. Or, highlight a design weakness with statistically meaningful correlation to reliability problems. Absent that, this thread will not be about science ... but something altogether different :rolleyes:

[Ge0]

Relibaility, on the other hand, may be worthy of discussion. But once again, anecdotes based on hearsay or personal opinion hold little value ... to anyone.


I won't argue with you about what you said prior to this quoted clip. A lot of people want to spout off about what they know about design. But, does a lot of what they say REALLY affect perceived sound quality. I think not. Too many other factors in a sound system grosely outweight nitpicky things like this.

Where I thought this thread was going to go was a disscussion about reliability and quality of a piece. Why does one cost so much more than another. I've been designing and building electronics gizmos for 15 years professionally, 25 years in total. I have some experience under my belt and thought I would chime in where I could add valuable input. We really haven't gone there yet so I'll just sit back and spectate.

Oh, that, and I wanted to show how big my dick is too....

Ge0

[Ge0]

After reading through a couple of recent threads (you know the ones), I would be interested to see some examples of amps that are well designed and built as well as some good name brand amps that are poorly designed or built.

I myself would be interested in seeing arguments of the merits of an Arc Audio XXK design implementation versus the more mainstream alpine and JL amps.

I would be interested in an educated analysis from an engineering and performance point of view, not "I have used this amp for x years and it is at the top of my list" - I can do that myself.

It would be interesting to me to find out (for examle only) that Arc Audio amps are not any better designed than alpine or JL, or that brand x chinese amp while inexpensive are designed and built as well as Tru, etc.

Ok, get to it!

Design and build can be two quite different things. Which did you want to address?

Ge0

[werewolf]

ezaudio posted when i did. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but in my opinion, he has taken some steps in the right direction ... but we still have a long way to go.

Not be an ass, but to make something productive out of a likely train wreck ...

- identify the problem
- describe what amp spec (or reliability) it impacts
- close the loop by examining the published spec for the amp ... is the manufacturer being untruthful in the spec, if the amp can't hope to meet it?

In my view, we then have a valid basis for comparison.

Simple case in point : transistors in the main voltage-gain diff pair. Absolutely true ... if they are separated by some distance, there will likely be a thermal gradient bewteen them. What is impacted? The temperature coefficient of a bipolar transistor Vbe is -2mV/degree C. If the diff pair devices are at different temperatures, the current split won't change (equal current split is guaranteed by the current mirror load, and the overall amp feedback that keeps the voltage gain in it's linear/gainy region) ... instead, the voltage gain stage will develop an input-referred offset voltage. Now, do we care about DC offset in an audio amp? DC is certainly not in the audible range, and a good amp design will probably not amplify any input-referred offset (simple RC networks in the feedback path will prohibit DC gain). HOWEVER ... even though DC offset will not show up in a typical amp spec, it MAY cause a bit of a turn-off pop if it's severe enough (it won't cause a turn-on pop, because it's a safe assumption that the transistors will be at temp equilibrium when the amp is first turned-on). You won't find a spec on turn off pops ... but one can do a simple analysis on what's significant enough to be annoying, and then understand what kind of temp difference you'd need between the diff-pair devices to cause it. That way, we have a framework for anaylsis and comparison, to determine if the problem rises to the level of "sonic concern".

Know what i mean?

[MuTT]

Know what i mean?

nope:blush:

[CBRworm]

To me this is helpful. What EZ posted about the differences between the ED amp and the PG amp are metrics that I can understand and design practices that would help me pay more for a PG Xenon amp than an ED in this particular case - although I don't know what either of them cost.

The statements werewolf makes are also good to see how much a difference these things make.

I have been on this board for a long time and have not ever seen clear examples of what makes a particular amp better than others besides this one being the pick of the month, or that one is over/underrated (which I could care less about. If it does 123x2 @ 4ohm then sell it as 123x2) I have also had a number of good and bad amps that have failed, or failed to impress and I like to see functionaly what the differences are.

If it drops into a flame war then I will be the first to leave this thread.

[thehatedguy]

I'm guess what I'm getting at is, how are you going to achieve that by looking at different board layouts?

Then I would tell you to find a Steg Masterstroke if you want a master course in board/amp design.

[Thoraudio]

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Steg_MSK_3000/inside1.jpg

[chad]

ON semiconductor produces good replacements for the old Toshibas these days.

Really!? You could be my next hero! The 3281/1302 is very common in my line of work. Have you found the ON devices reliable in said situations? We are talking pro amps here running balls deep. I'll look into that. I have enough 1302/3281's in stock to keep me into a couple more re-builds but if I need to swap out a whole rack of finals I could use the ON's and save my stash!


Highly doubtful that oscillation was caused by a double sided circuit board...but I digress.




Correct, it was from piss poor implementation of said board style with one trace running paralel on the other side of the board to a trace it should not be running with. A really high impedance line running in line with er-um. plate voltage with signal on it headed to the output transformer. Bad Mo-Jo my friend, bad Mo-Jo!

Chad

[envisionelec]

If it drops into a flame war then I will be the first to leave this thread.

Ditto. While I wasn't expecting any of my observations to go unchallenged, I wanted to present them as details that separate rather than obfuscate differences in amplifiers.

If we go back to the Amp Guts - What it's all about thread, in the first post I said, "I look around and see...The usual junk from [overseas] which incorporates about 80% of the companies involved in amplifier distribution (no longer or never-have-been manufacturing their own)."

This statement was made to directly address the so-called professionals that started an amplifier company - and lead their customers astray by making false statements about their products; brutally (and often personally) attacking other brands. The problem I have with this goes beyond hypocrisy, but to the heart of what matters - customer satisfaction.

There is nothing amiss with buying amplifiers as a distributor, but you shouldn't tell your customers (or announce it on forums) that your circuit uses "the same board" but "better parts" than a competitor. You're misleading your customer base and you are fooling yourself. You paid to have your name put on a heatsink which houses an amplifier that 20 other companies are using. You're not special.

I'm just trying to point this out. That's it.

[envisionelec]

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Steg_MSK_3000/inside1.jpg

Wow. Is that a STEG? There are so many large power components on that, I can't even see the audio portions. :) Very beautifully executed. I wonder if the designer was a former industrial controls engineer. :D

[chad]

Wow. Is that a STEG? There are so many large power components on that, I can't even see the audio portions. :) Very beautifully executed. I wonder if the designer was a former industrial controls engineer. :D

I see a ton of audio :D Like the whole right side :D

[envisionelec]

Really!? You could be my next hero! The 3281/1302 is very common in my line of work. Have you found the ON devices reliable in said situations? We are talking pro amps here running balls deep. I'll look into that. I have enough 1302/3281's in stock to keep me into a couple more re-builds but if I need to swap out a whole rack of finals I could use the ON's and save my stash!

Correct, it was from piss poor implementation of said board style with one trace running paralel on the other side of the board to a trace it should not be running with. A really high impedance line running in line with er-um. plate voltage with signal on it headed to the output transformer. Bad Mo-Jo my friend, bad Mo-Jo!

Chad

Toshiba has a new breed with their 2SA1943 and 2SD5200, but the upper voltage SOA isn't as good as the 1302/3281; however it should satisfy most audio requirements.
ON has the MJL1302 and MJL3281 in FP (full plastic) and MJ21193/94 (TO-3).

Oh, a TUBE amp...well, forget what I said. :rolleyes:

[thehatedguy]

Yeap, that is a MSK.

Brax has very nice board layouts too.

My favorite boards are the ones in my HSS Fidelity HT230.

[envisionelec]

I see a ton of audio :D Like the whole right side :D

Ever heard of a hyperbole. That was it. (Just kidding) :)

Yes, their whole line (on Amp Guts, anyway) is impressive. If I was able to put something on the market - it would look like that. Definitely. I'll bet they're in the upper price bracket eschelon, though.

[envisionelec]

Yeap, that is a MSK.

Brax has very nice board layouts too.

My favorite boards are the ones in my HSS Fidelity HT230.

These are BRAX, correct?

http://www.tunpohk.com/cp_detail.php?id=938&nowmenuid=5367&cpath=&catid=0

http://www.xmweb.cn/com/fswudong/pic/1164094124.jpg

Sorry, they probably just make Brax heatsinks, not the amplifiers. They also build heatsinks for US Amps...

[thehatedguy]

That is the inside of some like I have.

You won't find one of the HSS though, unless I put them up.

[Thoraudio]

http://www.hssfidelity.com/images/products/big/HT230internojpg.jpg

[thehatedguy]

Sweet, I must have put that up when I put my foot in my mouth...lol.

[envisionelec]

That is the inside of some like I have.

You won't find one of the HSS though, unless I put them up.

Really? They look homemade (not that there is anything wrong with that...)

EDIT: NM, that is a prototype of it....with the production version beneath.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6217/hss18ly.jpg

[the other hated guy]

the genny hybrid tube amps layout looks incredible...

and from what I have seen of the sinfoni desiderio, looks like it would be a good candidate as well...


AND DAYMN THAT MSK LOOKS LIKE PURE SEX

[johnson]

These are BRAX, correct?

http://www.tunpohk.com/cp_detail.php?id=938&nowmenuid=5367&cpath=&catid=0

http://www.xmweb.cn/com/fswudong/pic/1164094124.jpg

Sorry, they probably just make Brax heatsinks, not the amplifiers. They also build heatsinks for US Amps...

Does that company supply the boards or do they just take pictures of completed products?

[Thoraudio]

Why would they have power ratings if they dont supply the boards? Do they supply Arc the boards?

because they'll be happy to sell you boards that fit that heatsink. If you'll notice, the ratings don't match anything in that line of brax amps.

[envisionelec]

Why would they have power ratings if they dont supply the boards? Do they supply Arc the boards?

That's a good point, but I've found that this company doesn't always carry the same boards that go with the heatsink. It is much more convincing to see an actual board of components on that site that can be verified with the amplifiers guts.

[CBRworm]

I thought they made the boards for Arc and Brax. Knowing that they make (and sell) the heatsink suddenly makes the whole idea of counterfit products with perfect heatsinks click. So someone could buy a bunch of authentic Brax heatsinks with a generic board that fits and works well enough to escape scrutiny.

Interesting. I always wondered how the counterfit amps (DLS) could be such close replicas.

[Diru]

Things that make you go "hummmmmmmm"


Still, how much? lol

Did anyone see the class A mono blocks?

http://www.tunpohk.com/cp_detail.php?id=1010&nowmenuid=5367&cpath=0271:&catid=271

never mind i don't think its even worth looking at . after looking closer

[thehatedguy]

I saw something labeled class A...looked like junk to me.

[Diru]

Group buY!!!!!!!!!!!1 LMAO

[MidnightCE]

what about the new ARC KAR G/H amps? My dynaudio crossovers look more serious inside. :confused: But I know slightly less about amplifier design than I do gynecology.

[envisionelec]

I thought they made the boards for Arc and Brax. Knowing that they make (and sell) the heatsink suddenly makes the whole idea of counterfit products with perfect heatsinks click. So someone could buy a bunch of authentic Brax heatsinks with a generic board that fits and works well enough to escape scrutiny.

Interesting. I always wondered how the counterfit amps (DLS) could be such close replicas.

What are the circumstances surrounding these counterfeit DLS amps? Why would a manufacturer target a "smaller" company?

I'll only say this once... Tunpo supplied amps to Clarion, Cerwin Vega, and ARC in and around 2000-2002. Arc has obviously moved past this, to some extent, getting some their amps designed by a very respectable person. If you look at the AmpGuts pages on ROE, you'll see that some of the listings for ARC verifies this fact "uses same board as". ROE doesn't go as far to say the amps are the same....but they are the same.

[thehatedguy]

Better be careful saying that stuff about Arc...I got into a shitton of trouble saying something similar on ECA.

[MidnightCE]

Better be careful saying that stuff about Arc...I got into a shitton of trouble saying something similar on ECA.

<3 ARC, all hail ARC..

[Abmolech]

Yet to see any design specifications...

Ask yourself this question
Is it easier to design and build a power amplifier were the budget is almost unlimited, and any exotic parts can be procured or

One where cost, time and availability are major factors in the specifications?

I can appreciate a power amplifier that has been "upgraded" with better capacitors, op-amps and possibly transistors, and yet obtains no audible or reliability advantage.
Now thats a GOOD design. IE they KNOW where to spend their time and effort.

Point
Probably the vast majority of power amplifiers fit into the above category. A well designed power amplifier doesn't have to have all the "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed. A well designed power amplifier meets or exceeds it design specifications.

Not everybody wants sports car..;)

[bassfromspace]

Better be careful saying that stuff about Arc...I got into a shitton of trouble saying something similar on ECA.

I was banned from ECA years ago for the same thing.

[$NotEnough$]

Better be careful saying that stuff about Arc...I got into a shitton of trouble saying something similar on ECA.

They kill....they kill.....

[envisionelec]

Better be careful saying that stuff about Arc...I got into a shitton of trouble saying something similar on ECA.


Ah...perfect example. You know...I was once slammed about my PointZero amps over on DIYAudio.com. Truth is...the person wasn't a customer, but a sideliner calling shots from his recliner. My answer?

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1271910#post1271910

In my most humble opinion, manufacturers should be eager and willing to correct mistakes and acknowledge truth.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Better be careful saying that stuff about Arc...I got into a shitton of trouble saying something similar on ECA.

What CAN you say that won't get you into a shitton of trouble over on ECA:confused:

[envisionelec]

Yet to see any design specifications...

Not everybody wants sports car..;)

You'd have to ask the engineer that designed the amp for the specifications. I sort of doubt you'd get very far.

[chad]

I was banned from ECA years ago for the same thing.

If I posted there.... I wonder how long it would take for me to get banned..... :D

Chad

[Abmolech]

You'd have to ask the engineer that designed the amp for the specifications. I sort of doubt you'd get very far.
Macintosh:D

[werewolf]

You'd have to ask the engineer that designed the amp for the specifications. I sort of doubt you'd get very far.
well, since it's become my firm convinction that all car audio power amps that have ever been in existence were designed by less than 7 people, all the rest being copies ... it might not be that hard !!! :D

anyway, i think he was referring to the published specs.

And it would be fun to list those manufacturers from whom it really IS possible to get schematics/service manuals. I'll start :

McIntosh
Pioneer
Alpine

and ...

um ...

did we mention McIntosh yet?

:(

[6spdcoupe]

Hey Jeff, check your PMs !

Please. :)

























Sorry for the OT, carry on... :D

[Abmolech]

I think we should mention it again:p

Now how about we come up with some improvements that will make useful difference.:o

I will start.
I love eye bolt power supply points. OK, yes I was trained as both a white and black smith, but I still HATE the grub screw fittings.

Will it make any difference?
Nope.

But I would feel appeased.:(
But they didn't design it for people like me.
Point
They had a target market in mind.

[toolfan91]

Better be careful saying that stuff about Arc...I got into a shitton of trouble saying something similar on ECA.

This ISNT eca, thank god... Please elaborate :)

[Bluto Blutarsky]

This ISNT eca, thank god... Please elaborate :)

I agree, let's hear it.

[FoxPro5]

EZ or Chad or whoever...

How did they get 8 amps in one chassis like this??

And why don't they make of them like this? Is this considered 'modular' design?

[starboy869]

I really should post up my PPI PASS Limited Edition A600.2 board and my regular A600.2 board just for comparison.

[thehatedguy]

They are no different than the other PPIs posted on amp guts.

[bassfromspace]

I agree, let's hear it.

It came out that a few Arc Amps were VERY similar to the Clarion APA series amps.

[CBRworm]

I thought that it was decided they were exactly the same. I remember the rush a few years ago when everyone here localy started buying the Clarion version of the XXK's. Unfortunately I also bought some Clarion 'pro audio' speakers which were not the same as anything good.

I didn't realize you could get banned for pointing that out.

/ I hope I don't get banned /

[Thoraudio]

;) EZ or Chad or whoever...

How did they get 8 amps in one chassis like this??

And why don't they make of them like this? Is this considered 'modular' design?

That's actually 2 4 channel amps ;)

I've always thought modular amps would be a great idea, but only a few people have made them.... Canton and some few Soundstream amps from back in the day.

Here's a couple of SS amps with separate powersupply board and output sections.

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Soundstream_SA-245/inside1.jpg

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Soundstream_SA-244/inside1.jpg

[starboy869]

They are no different than the other PPIs posted on amp guts.

I never did compare the boards and this thread has starked my interest in a side by side comparison. So far both of my PASS A600.2 came with 80 amp fuses instead of the 60 amp on the USDM one. I thought it was a fluke thing, but my old store stock PASS came with an 80 amp fuse also.

I'll get those pictures up later today.

[CaseyWalsh]

EZ or Chad or whoever...
How did they get 8 amps in one chassis like this??

Yo B-Squad: Here's the manual for your Xetec "Gravity 8G1000"...

http://photonlogic.com/gravity8g1000.pdf

[envisionelec]

EZ or Chad or whoever...

How did they get 8 amps in one chassis like this??

And why don't they make of them like this? Is this considered 'modular' design?

Yes and no. The vertical boards are modular, but the main board is unified. The vertical board design has its upside that it is easily repaired and is cheap to make. The downside is that it's a mechanical connection made (usually) only with solder which can crack.

On the other hand, it would be quite interesting to see how they deal with an 800W A/B amplifier in that tiny chassis without overheating. My guess is that they expect you to run a multi-way system from it on normal music, ie: not an SPL amp. There are always compromises.

[CaseyWalsh]

ezaudio: Do you think they are A/B because the output inductors are air-core? The manual completely avoids using the word “class.” Perhaps it is class G (as the model number could suggest) to keep waste heat down.

Also, if you are posting with the benefit of schematics, please post them also so we can scrutinize them too.

Cheers,
-Casey

[FoxPro5]

Yo B-Squad: Here's the manual for your Xetec "Gravity 8G1000"...

http://photonlogic.com/gravity8g1000.pdf

Thanks. I have the manual and am obviously familiar with how it works (ie the Parabridge joining the two 4 channel amp for a muti-configuration). I was just curious if you guys that know what you are looking at can tell if it's a "good" design or not.

It works great for what it's supposed to do and is innovative, so I also wanted to know why more aren't built this way?

Never had heat as an issue personally, but I have yet to run the sub channel down to 2 ohm. Although I do personally feel that if a heat sink is hot, then it's doing its job correctly. If performance starts to suffer and thermal is tripped, then well that's different.

Carry on.... :)

[FoxPro5]

So if any of the alleged "design issues" don't impact one of these specs, they won't impact the sound. Religious belief otherwise, will never go away ... hence a new thread every year or so.

You know what, it IS like every year or so! LMAO! :o Guess us antisemitic assholes have great internal clocks. ;)

[DearS]

"Alleged"......what else can we do in a forum but have allegations? I feel irritated and frustrated. I guess I think I can mold words and my stand into truth. Maybe I'm empowering my own allegations. Still I can make a coherent assessment, correlated in a simple yet effective way. Thats not an allegation I think, just a believe. The correlation being in line with truth is the key. Explaining what does what, with coherent reasons as to why it does what it does. That can be pretty difficult for to me to do, I imagine it is also for others. Many posts are allegations with a "prove me wrong if you can" attitude. I F-ing hate giving power to that, and than fighting it for "making me" feel like I do. Struggling and giving it power, feeling the frustration the follows. Thats my response-ability though. I need to change my perspective and attitude, and make "better" choices.

Again, I believe the key is honest correlated facts given in a coherent way which in turn form a useful assessment! Correlated facts are the same in a lab or online. In the end its our own responsibility what we think about the assessment. The correlation of facts is another's believe (if they are honest) about the subject matter.

Maybe we ought to focus on a single area of the amp at a time. Maybe summarize what is already known about what works for a good amp. What makes a Real amp an amp. That may be pretty long though.

ps. Changed my post a bit, better correlated ie. correlated more inline with what I believe is the truth.

[michaelsil1]

Macintosh:D

I wish I had the money for Mac's!:(

[envisionelec]

ezaudio: Do you think they are A/B because the output inductors are air-core? The manual completely avoids using the word “class.” Perhaps it is class G (as the model number could suggest) to keep waste heat down.

Also, if you are posting with the benefit of schematics, please post them also so we can scrutinize them too.

Cheers,
-Casey

No. Class A/B doesn't always have inductors at its output. Class D requires some sort of Pi or T filtering - and there is none. What's left? Class A? Class G? Class H? It's none of those. The circuitry is simple and there isn't enough heatsink for Class A.

I have no schematics for 99% of the amps I work on. I can "see" a circuit function by looking at it. My brain is a repository for part numbers, component functions and circuit blocks.

[s10scooter]

I might not be able to hear the difference...but if I dropped the amp...then build quality would most certainly come in to play.

[envisionelec]

"Alleged"......what else can we do in a forum but have allegations? I feel irritated and frustrated. I guess I think I can mold words and my head into truth. Maybe I'm filled with allegations myself. Still I can make a coherent assessment, in an easy to correlate manner than it wont be allegations. The correlation is the key. Explain what does what, with coherent reasons as to why it does what it does. Which is pretty difficult for to me to do, I imagine it is also for others. Many posts are allegations with a "prove me wrong if you can" attitude. I F-ing hate the frustration I feel when I with power to that.

Again, I believe the key is correlated facts given in a coherent way to form a useful assessment! Correlated facts are the same in a lab or online. In the end its our own responsibility what we think about the assessment, the correlation of facts is another's believe (if they are honest) about the subject matter.

Maybe we ought to focus on a single area of the amp at a time. Maybe summarize what is already known about what works for a good amp. Or what makes a Real amp an amp. That may be pretty long though.

To expand on your point, there is no room for technical discussion on this board. It is plainly obvious that we're never going to talk about the finer points (that are important) of amplifier design. The points I have made have been every bit as technical as those by others, but my claims are firmly dismissed by the "fanboys". This isn't about fights, but information. The information is out there and I'm merely pointing it out. There are design facts, and there are design preferences. I am pointing out the facts of these designs and, while I cannot prove that THIS amp will outdo THAT amp (the epitome of the apples and oranges comparison), I can state that there are definitive design constraints which make a design better than another. There are a great deal of semi-professionals on this site, who wallow in technical ignorance, and seem intent on trapping the "claimer of claims"; using a cowardly shield of a guy over twenty years my senior(!) that started a semiconductor fab company. Wow. I'm not impressed nor amused by this behavior.

I've been around the block more than once. After years of watching these forums be eaten up with half-truths and completely erroneous understanding of car audio equipment, it's really no wonder that I see this forum in the state it is in. But hey, if it's not hurting anyone (popular post-modern view), why not indulge?

[speakerboy]

Woah. Vent much?

[envisionelec]

You guys will like this one. I bought several "PSL" amps on eBay last week. All brand new, in the box. I powered one up last night, got a turn-on pop (fine...most did in 1994) and listened to the first track on my test CD. It sounded like poo. So, I cracked it open. Sure enough - the Diff Amp has no current mirrors, the VA Amp is undersized, the amp is an EF design and there are no bias control pots. There is also no crossover or bass boost in these amps. I haven't even scoped it yet...but you know what? I've heard enough of these amps to know what to listen for. Among well designed amps, this is very (VERY) difficult to discern. This one was easy to hear right out of the box.

Oh yeah, it has a regulated power supply as well...but boy, is it mis-designed. Typical.

[werewolf]

To expand on your point, there is no room for technical discussion on this board. It is plainly obvious that we're never going to talk about the finer points (that are important) of amplifier design. The points I have made have been every bit as technical as those by others, but my claims are firmly dismissed by the "fanboys". This isn't about fights, but information. The information is out there and I'm merely pointing it out. There are design facts, and there are design preferences. I am pointing out the facts of these designs and, while I cannot prove that THIS amp will outdo THAT amp (the epitome of the apples and oranges comparison), I can state that there are definitive design constraints which make a design better than another. There are a great deal of semi-professionals on this site, who wallow in technical ignorance, and seem intent on trapping the "claimer of claims"; using a cowardly shield of a guy over twenty years my senior(!) that started a semiconductor fab company. Wow. I'm not impressed nor amused by this behavior.

I've been around the block more than once. After years of watching these forums be eaten up with half-truths and completely erroneous understanding of car audio equipment, it's really no wonder that I see this forum in the state it is in. But hey, if it's not hurting anyone (popular post-modern view), why not indulge?

Once again your "facts" are wrong, my friend. But yet, you keep using that word ... "fact". Perhaps you should consult a dictionary?

Nobody's hiding ... not all of us edit our posts, after all, when new information is presented that casts doubt on the "facts" ;)

Just to set the record straight ... it's not a semiconductor fab company. And this, my friend, is verifiable fact. In fact, it's a fabless mixed-signal design company ... specializing in analog and digital circuit design.

Trust me, i remain even less impressed ... but highly amused! :D

[quality_sound]

It came out that a few Arc Amps were VERY similar to the Clarion APA series amps.


I think you have that backwards.

[the other hated guy]

I think you have that backwards.

it's not backwards...they were at one time comming from the same build house..

[quality_sound]

it's not backwards...they were at one time comming from the same build house..

I understand that. But who designed them? THAT'S what I'm getting at.

[speakerboy]

I read all of this thread trying to pick up information that is WELL over my head, as far as amp design. I must admit, the vast majority of it went well over my head. I understand what the O.P. was trying to do. He was not trying to make a pissing contest (or compare members as Ge0 is trying to do ;) ). He was trying to establish a fairly objective A/B comparison to amp design. It seems though, that although there are a few people that understand the complete inner workings of amplifiers, it is proving to be a daunting task.

At this point, I think that comparisons like this simply cannot be made. EZaudio pointed out several differences a few pages back between the Ed(uh) and the PG amps, although werewolf seemed to disagree with a few. The points that were made are certainly over my head, and even though 2 specific amps were discussed, that was it - there was no more of those type of posts.

There is too much difference of opinion to continue.

[envisionelec]

Once again your "facts" are wrong, my friend. But yet, you keep using that word ... "fact". Perhaps you should consult a dictionary?

Nobody's hiding ... not all of us edit our posts, after all, when new information is presented that casts doubt on the "facts" ;)

Just to set the record straight ... it's not a semiconductor fab company. And this, my friend, is verifiable fact. In fact, it's a fabless mixed-signal design company ... specializing in analog and digital circuit design.

Trust me, i remain even less impressed ... but highly amused! :D

A) You're not my friend, so don't call me that.
B) I edit my posts to clean up grammar or reflect personal opinion, not change what I said.
C) You're too big for this forum. Exactly what do you do here besides play a shell game with other technically-minded individuals? I said it before, your presence is not only out of place, but has been obviously unchallenged for a number of years. Why not spend some quality time at the "fabless mixed-signal design forum"? I'm sure they'll get a kick out of your style.

[the other hated guy]

I understand that. But who designed them? THAT'S what I'm getting at.

it wasn't arc...I'll leave it at that

[DearS]

it's not backwards...they were at one time comming from the same build house..

I see, but please elaborate what does that inquire?

opps, someone posted a similar question.

[speakerboy]

A) You're not my friend, so don't call me that.
B) I edit my posts to clean up grammar or reflect personal opinion, not change what I said.
C) You're too big for this forum. Exactly what do you do here besides play a shell game with other technically-minded individuals? I said it before, your presence is not only out of place, but has been obviously unchallenged for a number of years. Why not spend some quality time at the "fabless mixed-signal design forum"? I'm sure they'll get a kick out of your style.

Here it comes - Ge0, whip it out :D

[the other hated guy]

A) You're not my friend, so don't call me that.
B) I edit my posts to clean up grammar or reflect personal opinion, not change what I said.
C) You're too big for this forum. Exactly what do you do here besides play a shell game with other technically-minded individuals? I said it before, your presence is not only out of place, but has been obviously unchallenged for a number of years. Why not spend some quality time at the "fabless mixed-signal design forum"? I'm sure they'll get a kick out of your style.

can you honeslty be any more of a pompous tool shed?...you do realize that the man your bashing as over 30 patents and prolly has had more success than you could ever dream of accomplishing?

[the other hated guy]

I see, but please elaborate what does that inquire?

opps, someone posted a similar question.

it's been beat'n like a dead horse for a couple of years...do a search over at ECA...this is nothing new..

[Genxx]

To expand on your point, there is no room for technical discussion on this board. It is plainly obvious that we're never going to talk about the finer points (that are important) of amplifier design. The points I have made have been every bit as technical as those by others, but my claims are firmly dismissed by the "fanboys". This isn't about fights, but information. The information is out there and I'm merely pointing it out. There are design facts, and there are design preferences. I am pointing out the facts of these designs and, while I cannot prove that THIS amp will outdo THAT amp (the epitome of the apples and oranges comparison), I can state that there are definitive design constraints which make a design better than another. There are a great deal of semi-professionals on this site, who wallow in technical ignorance, and seem intent on trapping the "claimer of claims"; using a cowardly shield of a guy over twenty years my senior(!) that started a semiconductor fab company. Wow. I'm not impressed nor amused by this behavior.

I've been around the block more than once. After years of watching these forums be eaten up with half-truths and completely erroneous understanding of car audio equipment, it's really no wonder that I see this forum in the state it is in. But hey, if it's not hurting anyone (popular post-modern view), why not indulge?

What you are missing is most of us do not care. People have there fav brands and ones that they feel work for them. You will not change that. I like Zapco, ARC, Audison, Aura, JL, OS Autotek/PPI/RF. Even if you told me that the Zapco or ARC are the worst amps in the world I am still going to buy them. Why becuase all the amps I have listed have worked for me for years and years with not one ever failing. So guess what I a going to buy, yep thats right you guessed it. Am I a "fanboy" I guess so of certain brands.

If you want to give info for use to learn from then pic some amps point out all the components so Joe blow understands it and what does what. Then at the end add in your opinion on what you have talked about. Most of use are not going to take apart an amp before we buy it and many even after they buy it.IMO Just do a tutorial on the points of amp design in general and let people ask questions if they have them.

The debate of this amp sounds better ect will never have a outcome it will be argued until the end of time hence the $10,000 amp challenge.IMO

[quality_sound]

it wasn't arc...I'll leave it at that

Fair enough.

[DearS]

Maybe its not my business...but oh well. I'll add a few things.

No one is dumb, unsuccessful, or a fish out of water. Werewolf is lot more than an engineer, EZ is more than an Attitude, and Success entails more than can be measured externally. Also Comparison of one person with another are meaningless. Our behavior does not determine the significance of another or their life. Thats a brainwash by society, a lot of people whose ego defense mechanisms are brainwashing them to avoid the pain of feeling insignificant. In turn we look outside for significance, and the only way to do that is compare ourselves to others. Its the human condition ie. co-dependence. The real answers resonate within.

[CaseyWalsh]

Hey werewolf: I’ve designed your microcontrollers into several T&M products – awesome stuff! Has anyone acknowledged that you folks were the first to create and ship truly digital power supply controllers?

http://photonlogic.com/PicServe/respect.jpg



Sorry for the jack. Back to our program…

[Neil]

It has nothing to do with who owns what and who holds what patents, or who regularly posts here and who doesn't.

It's a very simple fact: the original poster made very broad claims that are easily refuted by singular examples and got butt hurt.

One of the first things you learn about circuits is that if you change one value, the rest typically change as well. So to say that all amplifiers with this topology or that power supply don't work or aren't viable is blatant bs...especially when there are some out there being used commercially for many years with great success and user satisfaction.

edit: These several threads aren't a comparison of learned knowledge...if they were, this would be a lot more fun. Instead, it is a few with the ability to think logically and a few without said ability.

[speakerboy]

Maybe its not my business...but oh well. I'll add a few things.

First, No one is dumb, unsuccessful, or a fish out of water. Werewolf is lot more than an engineer, EZ is more than an Attitude, and Success entails more than you we can measure.

Well said. Finally, you posted something I can understand!! :D ;)

[envisionelec]

can you honeslty be any more of a pompous tool shed?...you do realize that the man your bashing as over 30 patents and prolly has had more success than you could ever dream of accomplishing?

I deal daily with dozens of engineers that have 40+ (and continuing) patents, have more experience than Mr. Scott in a number of areas, could run circles around him, but do NOT go about the power trip. Hell, I have patents, but you know what? It doesn't matter in the big scheme of things!! It doesn't make me better than you or anyone else. I'm a creative person. That's it!

I rather enjoyed your comment about my success and how you value self-worth. Please, tell me Good Doctor, what does my future hold?

[gleepoy]

Can we call a truce? (Werewolf and EZ).

I really like how your discussions started off with each other. I think a lot of us can learn from them. I hope you 2 can work things out and continue your discussions maturely.

The rest of you should really stay out of it...you're making things worse. Werewolf can handle himself. This isn't highschool.

[envisionelec]

It has nothing to do with who owns what and who holds what patents, or who regularly posts here and who doesn't.

It's a very simple fact: the original poster made very broad claims that are easily refuted by singular examples and got butt hurt.

One of the first things you learn about circuits is that if you change one value, the rest typically change as well. So to say that all amplifiers with this topology or that power supply don't work or aren't viable is blatant bs...especially when there are some out there being used commercially for many years with great success and user satisfaction.

edit: These several threads aren't a comparison of learned knowledge...if they were, this would be a lot more fun. Instead, it is a few with the ability to think logically and a few without said ability.

Sorry, a refutation doesn't offer proof.

[werewolf]

A) You're not my friend, so don't call me that.
B) I edit my posts to clean up grammar or reflect personal opinion, not change what I said.
C) You're too big for this forum. Exactly what do you do here besides play a shell game with other technically-minded individuals? I said it before, your presence is not only out of place, but has been obviously unchallenged for a number of years. Why not spend some quality time at the "fabless mixed-signal design forum"? I'm sure they'll get a kick out of your style.
Are you sure you've never edited a post, to change "fact" to "opinion" ?? Maybe concerning those noisy, cheaper regulated amps? ;)

What i do here is teach and learn ... and my style of teaching is to expressly AVOID presenting "opinion" as "fact" ... especially when the "facts" are so easily disproved by simple examples. You can see evidence in the tutorials section on this board.

What are you doing here? It takes some effort, you know, for several of us to continue correcting your "facts".

[rhinodog00]

F--- this I am done listening to this crap! Come on! I enjoy a good discussion in order to learn but this shit sucks. Cudos to you werewolf for not being sucked in to this pissing match.

[envisionelec]

Can we call a truce? (Werewolf and EZ).

I really like how your discussions started off with each other. I think a lot of us can learn from them. I hope you 2 can work things out and continue your discussions maturely.

The rest of you should really stay out of it...you're making things worse. Werewolf can handle himself. This isn't highschool.


Yes, of course. I got really heated and OUT OF LINE. I'm very sorry for making this a personal offense. Please, forgive me.

[werewolf]

[RESPECT]Hey werewolf: I’ve designed your microcontrollers into several T&M products – awesome stuff! Has anyone acknowledged that you folks were the first to create and ship truly digital power supply controllers?
thank you for noticing!

Nope, hasn't been mentioned ... it wouldn't fit too well with some versions of "facts" :)

[Neil]

Sorry, a refutation doesn't offer proof.

Again, the whole basis of this disagreement seems to be going over your head.

[werewolf]

It has nothing to do with who owns what and who holds what patents, or who regularly posts here and who doesn't.

It's a very simple fact: the original poster made very broad claims that are easily refuted by singular examples and got butt hurt.

One of the first things you learn about circuits is that if you change one value, the rest typically change as well. So to say that all amplifiers with this topology or that power supply don't work or aren't viable is blatant bs...especially when there are some out there being used commercially for many years with great success and user satisfaction.

edit: These several threads aren't a comparison of learned knowledge...if they were, this would be a lot more fun. Instead, it is a few with the ability to think logically and a few without said ability.
BINGO !!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER !!!!! :) :D
thank you ...

[chad]

A) You're not my friend, so don't call me that.

K Skippy :D (I live for people saying that, much like the people that tell me smoking will kill me)

B) I edit my posts to clean up grammar or reflect personal opinion, not change what I said.

I must admit I do the same. I am a HORRIBLE typist so often times I forget to spell check or see glaring errors.

C) You're too big for this forum. Exactly what do you do here besides play a shell game with other technically-minded individuals? I said it before, your presence is not only out of place, but has been obviously unchallenged for a number of years. Why not spend some quality time at the "fabless mixed-signal design forum"? I'm sure they'll get a kick out of your style.

Dunno if I'd say that. He's been challenged more than once. Some folks get owned others keep their stance over semantic things and it just blows over, I've had a few of the latter myself. But not without digging into the books first, which was probably good for me :blush:

Bears repeating:
C) You're too big for this forum........... {snip} Why not spend some quality time at the "fabless mixed-signal design forum"? I'm sure they'll get a kick out of your style.

You are too sharp of a guy to be acting in this manner, nobody is mocking you, nobody is threatening your perceived level of intelligence. You have a company that is doing good things for the DIY community and I commend you for that, sometimes it's better to swallow your pride and your tongue at the same time and just stand down, for business reasons if nothing else.

I'm gonna post this THEN spell check :D

Chad

[bassfromspace]

Damn.

[envisionelec]

K Skippy :D (I live for people saying that, much like the people that tell me smoking will kill me)



I must admit I do the same. I am a HORRIBLE typist so often times I forget to spell check or see glaring errors.



Dunno if I'd say that. He's been challenged more than once. Some folks get owned others keep their stance over semantic things and it just blows over, I've had a few of the latter myself. But not without digging into the books first, which was probably good for me :blush:

Bears repeating:


You are too sharp of a guy to be acting in this manner, nobody is mocking you, nobody is threatening your perceived level of intelligence. You have a company that is doing good things for the DIY community and I commend you for that, sometimes it's better to swallow your pride and your tongue at the same time and just stand down, for business reasons if nothing else.

I'm gonna post this THEN spell check :D

Chad

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=236437&postcount=120

[chad]

Fair enough, I was posting when it came up I think...... because I'm 35 years old and desperately need a typing course :D

[DearS]

Well said. Finally, you posted something I can understand!! :D ;)

:D :D :D :D :D :D Thank you! thats part of my goal of course!

[low]

more information PLEASE! somebody quiet down the chihuahuas!!! good grief!

[Genxx]

A) You're not my friend, so don't call me that.
B) I edit my posts to clean up grammar or reflect personal opinion, not change what I said.
C) You're too big for this forum. Exactly what do you do here besides play a shell game with other technically-minded individuals? I said it before, your presence is not only out of place, but has been obviously unchallenged for a number of years. Why not spend some quality time at the "fabless mixed-signal design forum"? I'm sure they'll get a kick out of your style.

Werewolf is well respected. Maybe you should take a step back do some searching, hit ECA and read some of his writings. He has contributed for years and shared his knowledge. You act like we all bow before his feet and that's what you are expected to do. That is completely off base. He is repected because he has earned it. You seem to want immediate respect and it does not happen that way. Respect is earned not a given birth right. You are getting pissed because he challenges your opinions.

I have had debates with many guys that I was in over my head with on some stuff but you know what I kept an open mind and learned alot of stuff in the end. Now I consider many of them close to friend status.

I have debated the other hated guy (aka Hebrew Hammer) a couple times and I have learned alot and gained respect for him by keeping a open mind. I have learned alot from him. I have also been big enough to admit I was wrong. We never had to resort to name calling to get a point across. However, we both will if attacked.

Why can't you keep an open mind and just debate with Werewolf in a civil manner. Many times the forum members will learn alot during the journey.

Many people have debated over many topics with Werewolf and many other veterans in the industry thats how we learn. You keep spewing crap aimed at Werewolf from your mouth. So you are going to get band-wagoned on when you attack someone who has gained respect across the car audio community.

[speakerboy]

In all fairness, see his last post.

[werewolf]

I deal daily with dozens of engineers that have 40+ (and continuing) patents, have more experience than Mr. Scott in a number of areas, could run circles around him, but do NOT go about the power trip. Hell, I have patents, but you know what? It doesn't matter in the big scheme of things!! It doesn't make me better than you or anyone else. I'm a creative person. That's it!

I rather enjoyed your comment about my success and how you value self-worth. Please, tell me Good Doctor, what does my future hold?
could run circles around me? Is that also one of your "facts"? :rolleyes:

It may be true ... on the other hand, it may not be true. I certainly don't know for sure ... how, do tell, do you??

Dude ... you have a serious problem confusing opinion and fact. And by the way, my patent count has been seriously understated in this thread ;) That is a verifiable fact ... do we get the difference yet?

Power trip? What are you even talking about? In all of my contributions to this hobby, I've done nothing but emphasize science over guru-reputation. I defend my credentials, when they are questioned ... as you did. And i'll put my credentials up against anyone in the circuit design business. Might win, might lose ... but the outcome is not a foregone conclusion, as you have erroneously assumed ... that i promise you :)

[backwoods]

could run circles around me? Is that also one of your "facts"? :rolleyes:


I've never pictured you as a fast runner...

so the question is, would you be as well known or respected if it was based on your coordination?

So...maybe there is a little bit of fact there...:D

[DearS]

Learning to be (more) open minded is something all human beings are learning. Life is a school after all. In this school no one has power to "make" anyone do something or hold them responsible for what we want from them. Humans are responsible for what they expect from others. They have the option of letting go also. Although that can hard as hell. We can learn a bit by detaching from own process, and observing. No judging (as best we can) just observe ourselves, our process. I can see why many are doing and saying what they are. Just like we all can in varying degrees. I've been there, I've detached, I've observed, I've processed, Changed, I've grown. I have gained clarity. Thats how I understand clarity and vision is gained. I'm really glad to share that.

I believe myself and most here need to focus more on clarifying human fundamentals if the goal is understanding.

Also I disagree, Respect is not earned. Its a right we are entitled to. It starts with our own respect. Sorry, actually our higher powers. Which all humans to some degree make out to be false gods (money, brains, looks, etc etc). Then go about trying to earn it, and then compare themselves to others to feel significant, and end up with a false sense of worth. Feeling insignificant (like a mistake) They then go about blaming themselves or others for not getting it right. Blaming for something being wrong with them. Hence the name calling, more comparisons, etc etc. One person getting respect is insignificant of another not getting respect. Thats like saying my wife loves me and not you, so your not lovable. Again human fundamentals and a brainwashed society.

[Thoraudio]

I have a penis this big

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->


unless of course you're on like... an Iphone or something... then it's lots bigger.... or if you're on like a projection monitor.... then it's probably smaller. Or maybe you don't keep your browser maximized... then that would make a difference...

so basically, if you have a 19" monitor with your browser maximized.

um...

what was I talking about?

[speakerboy]

I have a penis this big

<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->


unless of course you're on like... an Iphone or something... then it's lots bigger.... or if you're on like a projection monitor.... then it's probably smaller. Or maybe you don't keep your browser maximized... then that would make a difference...

so basically, if you have a 19" monitor with your browser maximized.

um...

what was I talking about?

Is that when you are trying to pick up a rock with it?

[werewolf]

i know ... my apologies to the board :(

i'm out

[the other hated guy]

i know ... my apologies to the board :(

i'm out

jeff...the bottom line is this...you can't be asked to shuvel shit 100% of the time...period...end of story.... now matter how unbiased you have benn over the years, don't feel like you have to eat it... not taking crap from people is an awesome state to be in...been doing it for years and it feels great!!!..


P.S..welcome to the dark side....we "jason and i" are happy to have yeah :p

[thehatedguy]

Someone's about to get pwned.


Again.

[FoxPro5]

EZ - are you saying, that because of your knowledge and experience, you can predict how an amp will sound by looking at it's design?

Also, is a modular design defined by the topology and power supply layout? Not sure what that word even means quite yet. Thanks.

I'm not taking sides here. Don't care who said what. I just want to ask they guy a simple question or two, that's it. :)

[DearS]

EZ - are you saying, that because of your knowledge and experience, you can predict how an amp will sound by looking at it's design?

What does "looking" at an amp entail? So this question is asking him if he knows what things are and what they do in an amp just by looking at them as need be. In other words, can you show me how easily this can be done?

I'm not sure if we ever had a thread explaining what this and that in an amp is. Like what is that coil? Maybe we need to tackle that first. Actually that looks like a thread I might start. A year ago I did not know what that round of copper wire in amps and crossovers was. Even know I only have a limited understanding of it. Going out searching on my own seemed impossible. Now that I've elaborated that I needed to clarify within myself what it was that I was looking for, perhaps I can start searching directly for an answer.

[bassfromspace]

EZ - are you saying, that because of your knowledge and experience, you can predict how an amp will sound by looking at it's design?

I now commission the creation of the Golden Eye Mafia to coincide with the Golden Ear Mafia.

[MarkZ]

What does "looking" at an amp entail? So this question is asking him If he knows what things are and what they do in an amp just by looking at them as need be. In other words, can you show me how easily this can be done?

I'm not sure if we every had a thread explaining what this and that in an amp is. Maybe we need to tackle that first. Actually that looks like a thread I might start. A year ago I did not know what that round ball of coil in amps and crossovers was. Even know I only have a limited understanding of it.

There was already a thread on that.

[DearS]

Thank you, Searching I go.

[MarkZ]

Thank you, Searching I go.

Start here:

Edit: oops try this one.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18686

[DearS]

LOL, Thank you, thats where I am.

I think I'll really like to take part in making a more knowledgeable amp purchasing decision.

[FoxPro5]

I now commission the creation of the Golden Eye Mafia to coincide with the Golden Ear Mafia.

Please, TEAM EXTREME SQ Amp will pwn those poseurs all day. ;)

And yes my question was legit and I really do want to see how he answers it. Honestly.

So, I will ask another one:

EZ - If you were to build a "sound quality" amp for a customer, which components would be on the very top of the list that you'd use?

[FoxPro5]

I think I'll really like to take part in making a more knowledgeable amp purchasing decision.

I asked that very question on this board long ago.........and it went nowhere. Thoraudio said it best, you need a big penis....very big.....:rolleyes: to run the 'best' amps!

[backwoods]

I asked that very question on this board long ago.........and it went nowhere. Thoraudio said it best, you need a big penis....very big.....:rolleyes: to run the 'best' amps!


'if you are refering to his post above, I believe you COMPLETELY missed what he was stating.

[MarkZ]

EZ - If you were to build a "sound quality" amp for a customer, which components would be on the very top of the list that you'd use?

Some people get the notion to put liquor in there.

[CBRworm]

I can't believe how far downhill this thread went. It looked good for a little while.

Oh well.

I appologize to the DIYMA public for starting this thread. Obviously there were some of you who knew where it would end up. I didn't see how it could, but . . .


See Ya

[gentlejax2]

I am friends with some people who are very knowledgeable on the inner workings of these amps...unfortunately they dont hang out here....

but I trust they know what they are talking about when they tell me about amps...(I have asked in the past)....

so when I see a thread like this I think '' Oh good ...someone who actually knows what they are about might shed some interesting light and seperate the so called from the actually good"


boy was I wrong with this thread....


I am not an expert...far from it...but I have owned a lot of amps and I could tell from the laymans eye that some were better than others....

I was hoping to get some info here off this thread....dont know how it turned so stupid:o

[avaxis]

geezus christ ezaudio already apologised and taken a truce yet everyone else still pisses on him AFTER that.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=236437&postcount=120

its not werewolf or ezaudio who turned this thread into crap, rather the people who post nothing relevant to the thread topic and post stuff praising werewolf or pissing on ezaudio. FFS shut up already if you're not posting anything related to the topic. i read the entire 16 pages and more than half of it is filled with shit not relevant to the topic.

p/s i'd appreciate if someone can start a Penis Comparison topic in the Off Topic section in the forums.

[thehatedguy]

So, you want to take your own advice?

geezus christ ezaudio already apologised and taken a truce yet everyone else still pisses on him AFTER that.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=236437&postcount=120

its not werewolf or ezaudio who turned this thread into crap, rather the people who post nothing relevant to the thread topic and post stuff praising werewolf or pissing on ezaudio. FFS shut up already if you're not posting anything related to the topic. i read the entire 16 pages and more than half of it is filled with shit not relevant to the topic.

p/s i'd appreciate if someone can start a Penis Comparison topic in the Off Topic section in the forums.

[skylar112]

http://www.friedmanarchives.com/Animals/images/Horse%20choking%20on%20popcorn%20300%20dpi.jpg

Everyone hug and make up.

[ECLIPSEsqfan]

I don't suppose there is any chance of a MOD stepping in and cleaning up this thread so we can retain the information that is PERTINENT to the original topic?

I was really hoping to learn something.

I AM NO ONE SPECIAL.

I have no outstanding credentials.

I am not involved in the audio industry.

I wish I had half the experience that some on this forum do.

I hope to one day contribute to technical discussions in an informed and factual fashion.

I am unashamed of my percieved ignorance, and simultaneously spurred-on by my desire to continue to learn as much as possible.

I will never let the fear of seeming stupid for asking a question make me so by not asking it.

I don't judge others by what they have or don't have. I judge them by how they treat me.



I hope that maybe one day I can help someone else to learn.


Mario

[gentlejax2]

good post^^^ your are my twin brother...

[starboy869]

Yeah this thread went to crap.

I was going to post up my PPI PASS A600.2 and a regular A600.2 pictures so these pro can pick it apart. I did a side by side comparison and there's a whole bunch of differences. Basically the PASS uses the same PCB, but the Power Supply Mosfets are a different model (and larger in size), different model # Output devices, a few different valued resistors here and there, and of course different model # on those two ic cards located between the Output devices. Also some IC chips are a different model #. Both Amps are a 1996 model btw.

Plus I have a set of instruction somewhere (in japanese :( ) on modifying the PPI Arts series amps. It's a little hard to understand when translated to English.

Also I'm glad I opened up both amps. My PASS has what appears to have a bad resistor soon (Outer casing is flaking off) eeks!! and my regular A600.2 might need a single cap replaced (the small one near the Rail Cap).

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/PPI_A600.2/inside1.jpg

[thehatedguy]

On this thread you said:

Wow. Is that a STEG? There are so many large power components on that, I can't even see the audio portions. :) Very beautifully executed. I wonder if the designer was a former industrial controls engineer. :D


Then in the other amp thread pt 2 you said these things:


But if fixing the power supply was the case for improving PSRR in an amplifier, why aren't some of the most expensive home audio amplifiers in the world regulated? They're running at 60Hz and their filter caps recharge at a rate 1/500th of the typical car audio design. PSRR isn't designed to be fixed at the power supply, and you certainly can't do it with a regulated design.

My point is that regulated designs draw more current in slices than an unregulated design. You are seriously stressing the MosFets out during periods of high current draw when the battery voltage is lowest. Think about it: when the amplifier is in most demand of current, the battery voltage is lowest and the amplifier tries to compensate by widening the switching pulse - pulling more current and lowering available voltage again. I'm not getting into magnetic saturation, leakage inductance, radiated RFI and all the gremlins that lurk in regulated designs that elude even good designers and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Regulated designs are unreliable for car audio - and that is a fact.



Sorry, but because you've used an amp...or your friends use an amp with a regulated supply and it "works fine" doesn't prove that it's not a reliable method of designing a car audio amplifier. I personally use a regulated design amp (Xtant 3300c) in my vehicle. It's electrically very noisy, is poorly designed, but it sounds good and was cheap. So I use it for the time being.

I have two words to your first paragraph: Prove it. You still think I should be proving my point when it is common knowledge that, in a debate, you must first disprove a factually questionable statement.

You can read all about the design of audio amplifiers and the negative effects of RFI on an amplifier's ability to accurately reproduce audio. Maybe you should read papers from R.R. Cordell (a personal friend of mine). Or any book on audio amplifier design. Or build some car amplifiers from scratch.

If only knowledge was as simple as gaining a few thousand posts in an internet chat forum and pretending that reality doesn't exist.


I said that regulated power supplies are noisier than unregulated. This is still true


It wreaks havoc with AM reception, though and the toroidal transformer squeals loudly under load. Regulated is great, right?


Then knowing how much you nutted over the Steg, I went to: http://www.audio-system.de/steg/
clicked on Anleitungen which are PDF files. Then I scrolled down to the second part, which is the english translation and found the description of the P.H.R.E.S.S. feature of the Steg amps...a highly REGULATED power supply

P.H.R.E.S.S Primary Regulated High-Efficiency Supply Systems

Usually, given the amplifier output power depending on the available supply voltage. Most Watt data will be at 14.4 volts, therefore, possible to achieve high values. For STEG QMOS-Amps however, it is no matter whether only 11 volts (weak car battery off with motor) or 16 volts are available. Thanks to the patented P.H.R.E.S.S. The internal circuit switching, all board network offset fluctuations, and therefore the sensitive amplifier stages an absolutely constant voltage is available.

[thehatedguy]

You said this about the Steg amps:

Yes, their whole line (on Amp Guts, anyway) is impressive. If I was able to put something on the market - it would look like that. Definitely. I'll bet they're in the upper price bracket eschelon, though.

Steg features:

P.R.H.E.S.S. - Primary Regulated High Efficiency Supply System -
(Power supply)
This circuitry revolutionizes the world of DC-DC converters in motor
vehicles. It is, in fact, a PWM-stabilized voltage-booster circuit (where the
output voltage does not depend on the input voltage) which, differing from
the standard stabilized converters, maintains extremely high efficiency
(comparable to that of non-stabilized converters). Altogether this translates
into considerable energy saving and complete insensitivity of the amplifier
power output to battery voltage oscillations. The result is a considerable
boost in efficiency compared to the average.






Which, is a highly regulated powersupply. So Mr. "I hate regulated power supplies" would market an amp that has a highly regulated power supply?

Excellent.

[Diru]

On this thread you said:



Then in the other amp thread pt 2 you said these things:










Then knowing how much you nutted over the Steg, I went to: http://www.audio-system.de/steg/
clicked on Anleitungen which are PDF files. Then I scrolled down to the second part, which is the english translation and found the description of the P.H.R.E.S.S. feature of the Steg amps...a highly REGULATED power supply

P.H.R.E.S.S Primary Regulated High-Efficiency Supply Systems

Usually, given the amplifier output power depending on the available supply voltage. Most Watt data will be at 14.4 volts, therefore, possible to achieve high values. For STEG QMOS-Amps however, it is no matter whether only 11 volts (weak car battery off with motor) or 16 volts are available. Thanks to the patented P.H.R.E.S.S. The internal circuit switching, all board network offset fluctuations, and therefore the sensitive amplifier stages an absolutely constant voltage is available.



Now thats what I'm talking about.

[thehatedguy]

And even more:

MASTER STROKE amplifiers have a stabilized internal power supply. The
technical characteristics are obtained (and do not alter) with a power supply voltage
of between 10,5 and 14.4V. The amplifiers are built and dimensioned to supply
power exceeding the declared rating. The value is indicated as "typical power". The
power declared is in any case the minimum guaranteed and always verifiable on the
amplifier, independent of the tolerances of the components used in its construction.

[envisionelec]

You said this about the Steg amps:



Steg features:

P.R.H.E.S.S. - Primary Regulated High Efficiency Supply System -
(Power supply)
This circuitry revolutionizes the world of DC-DC converters in motor
vehicles. It is, in fact, a PWM-stabilized voltage-booster circuit (where the
output voltage does not depend on the input voltage) which, differing from
the standard stabilized converters, maintains extremely high efficiency
(comparable to that of non-stabilized converters). Altogether this translates
into considerable energy saving and complete insensitivity of the amplifier
power output to battery voltage oscillations. The result is a considerable
boost in efficiency compared to the average.






Which, is a highly regulated powersupply. So Mr. "I hate regulated power supplies" would market an amp that has a highly regulated power supply?

Excellent.

Yeah, sure - if it was designed properly. I don't hate them. Go read it again.

[thehatedguy]

You've edited a lot of stuff since then...kind of hard to find out what you really did say.

[envisionelec]

You've edited a lot of stuff since then...kind of hard to find out what you really did say.

I haven't edited "a lot of stuff since then". Most of my edits are within seconds of posting them, to correct spelling errors. Some were to improve context. I didn't change the basic tenet of my argument, however.

What gets me is that you think you've got me cornered and you couldn't be any further from making me feel stupid. I don't feel stupid and futher PMs with Mr Scott have us agreeing on many terms.

I don't know what your motivation is, but I'm going to ask that you stop this immediately. I already apologized for the things I said about Mr Scott and - I don't need to do that anymore. I never said I hated regulated supplies. They need to be designed properly and a great deal are NOT designed properly. That is all I ever intended to say in the first place - and I got carried away, like any human being is apt to do.

[thehatedguy]

Wow, it goes from telling werewolf that he needs to learn more, to Mr. Scott in a matter of days. Interesting.

But it's all good.

[Kenny Bania]

Wow, it goes from telling werewolf that he needs to learn more, to Mr. Scott in a matter of days. Interesting.

But it's all good.

Wow, it goes from kissing werewolf's ass to kissing more of werewolf's in a matter of days. Impressive! :rolleyes:

But it's all good...

And on with the mayhem...

[thehatedguy]

You sir are an idiot. Stay out of the big boy conversation and head back to off topic. Thanks, bye.

[envisionelec]

Wow, it goes from telling werewolf that he needs to learn more, to Mr. Scott in a matter of days. Interesting.

But it's all good.

No, I've always referred to him as Mr Scott. Please review.

[ECLIPSEsqfan]

good post^^^ your are my twin brother...

I guess your initial gut-feeling to send me in this direction was well deserved then ;) :D

Mario

[rhinodog00]

You sir are an idiot. Stay out of the big boy conversation and head back to off topic. Thanks, bye.

:o :o Baaaahhhaaahhhaaaa!!!! Pwnage!!

[Luke352]

So do either Werewolf or Ez have any comments on the DLS Ultimate/A series amps, I love looking at the insides of these even if I don't really know what any of it is, I just love how overbuilt they look, and the fact that it doesnt appear that they have arranged components for the sake of arrangeing them in a certain way to look nice. Plus with the number and size of the screws holding the PCB down it looks like you'd need a crowbar to damage it LOL.