Horn loaded subwoofer enclosures

[Abaddon]

Discuss:

Why?

Why not?

Pictures?

Examples?

http://www.decware.com/impsub.jpg

[chad]

Why,

Efficient, effortless, higher output

Why not,

Can be peaky, huge, tough to build and move, porables need to be room coupled or used in multiples to lower cutoff.

Pictures,

google: LabHorn, Bassmaxx, Eaw KF940, W bin, Scoop, folded horn, bent horn, bass horn, and I've posted my personal ones on here before

Examples.. See above

[Abaddon]

What's the concept behind them? With the massive volumes required, I would think they are closer to an IB setup then any other type of enclosure?

I would assume that the contained volume does little to nothing to control cone movement?

[Abaddon]

upon reading more about horns...

These things are freaking AWESOME.

[chad]

What's the concept behind them? With the massive volumes required, I would think they are closer to an IB setup then any other type of enclosure?

I would assume that the contained volume does little to nothing to control cone movement?

The ones pictured are more of a "scoop" where the horn flare itself controls the driver. Other horns use a TINY sealed chamber to control the movement then load the radiating side. This gives the cone equal pressure due to the compression of the throat and the tiny space it's in. You can shorten the horn path, which costs acoustic leverage, by making the enclosure for the driver larger or venting it as mine are.

Some horn designs are here: www.speakerplans.com

Chad

[Abaddon]

Now that I understand (through various different sources) how Horns work, and why they work... would they be appropriate for a 2.1 subwoofer setup? or would it be tooooo much for a regular sized room?

My thoughts would be a 10" woofer driven with about 500-1000 watts....

I've made a sketch of what I'm thinking... I think you'll be able to tell where the driver goes....



Sealed and Vented are too boring for me.

[a$$hole]

Now that I understand (through various different sources) how Horns work, and why they work... would they be appropriate for a 2.1 subwoofer setup? or would it be tooooo much for a regular sized room?

My thoughts would be a 10" woofer driven with about 500-1000 watts....

I've made a sketch of what I'm thinking... I think you'll be able to tell where the driver goes....



Sealed and Vented are too boring for me.

Looks like one half of the "WO32", Wicked one!

Build that with 1,000 watts and you will be able to make water vibrate in your room when the T-Rex on Jurrassic Park walks :o

[Abaddon]

Yep.. that was the inspiration for the design.

A dual 10" enclosure would be a bit TOO much I think... I'm in a townhouse so I really cant go too far overboard.

[chad]

I would say no, the mouth area required for fully coupled LFE work would be huge even live I still use conventional front loaded cones (twice as many of them) and only let the horns play down to 63 cycles. Build your MAINS out of horns and hang on ;)

[bobditts]

http://www.royaldevice.com/customita3.htm

[chad]

http://www.royaldevice.com/customita3.htm

Linky no worky

This will get you close:
http://www.ossaudio.com/royaldevice.htm

[bobditts]

Linky no worky

This will get you close:
http://www.ossaudio.com/royaldevice.htm

the link works just fine for me:confused:

[Abaddon]

Works fine for me too...

Looks pretty fucking awesome...


ok Chad.. so if you think my basic design wont work.. would you mind explaining why this one does?

http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm?/newsite/wo32.htm&intro

[SSSnake]

As chad mentioned getting horns to work for LFE or true sub applications is damn near impossible in a reasonably sized room. Even with corner placement the mouth area and flare length for a 20Hz horn is HUUUUUUGE. If you want to look at horns for your mains take a look at the Klipsch LaScalas. While there are better horns out there, the LaScala plans are readily available and give you a good idea of what is going on. Be sure to look at the Freq Resp ratings on the LaScalas as well, they are not low end monsters by any means (IMO - they require a sub to be a true full range system).

If I remeber correctly you can shorten the length of a horn by increaseing the total radiating surface of drivers used (therefore I would not use a 10" - start thinking multiple cheap 18s). This allows you to use a larger throat area and therfore shortens the horn. However,you are still left with the huge mouth.

While I have dreamed of a huge horn for subbass for quite some time I think that I am going IB instead. The construction time and cost for horns is just too great for me (at least in the subbass region - I love them for midbass)

[Neil]

I would say no, the mouth area required for fully coupled LFE work would be huge even live I still use conventional front loaded cones (twice as many of them) and only let the horns play down to 63 cycles. Build your MAINS out of horns and hang on ;)

Now that is the truth. I look at this two ways....

1) Subwoofer for home theater - The goal is low frequency extension and you simply won't be able to build a horn that is any more effective than a well built ported enclosure at low frequencies. The size of the mouth and throat of a horn required for a low cutoff is huge, even taking nearfield boundaries into consideration. I would rather just go with an EBS (or the LLT variant).

2) Subwoofer for music - A little more realistic in this case, but given the material, I almost guarantee you'll find a horn-loaded mid to be a hell of a lot more exciting than a horn-loaded subwoofer on music. I have tried a few full range horns and I'm always blown away by what you can do with a single driver in a well built and designed horn.

So in short....I don't bother for subwoofers because the bandwidth over which a horn would be effective is minimal compared to the size of enclosure required.

[thehatedguy]

Simple easy horn to build for the house:

http://cowanaudio.com/

Search for tapped horns.

I built a 30 hertz tapped horn for my apartment, and she's insane.

If you don't have the room for a proper horn, I would go ported or something with a couple passive radiators.

[SSSnake]

As far as the decware products... not TRUE horns. I have built several and I was NEVER more impressed with the SQ or output more than any of the other designs I came up with from scratch (well there was that 12th order, isobaric, quasi horn loaded .... :) ).

If lyou really want to look into smaller horn designs then Danley Sound labs is where to start. The only problem is that the design is under patent but you can get some very good ideas there.

They used to have a link to a huge horn that they built for CES. It was truly incredible.

[t3sn4f2]

Why,

Efficient, effortless, higher output

Why not,

Can be peaky, huge, tough to build and move, porables need to be room coupled or used in multiples to lower cutoff.

Pictures,

google: LabHorn, Bassmaxx, Eaw KF940, W bin, Scoop, folded horn, bent horn, bass horn, and I've posted my personal ones on here before

Examples.. See above

and the ultimate horn ever..........THE MATTERHORN (http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/766/the-worlds-largest-subwoofer-wants-to-kill-you)

Specification is -3dB @ 12 Hz and flat from 15-80 Hz. It will do 105 dB @ 250 meters!!!!!.

- x40 Subwoofers
- x40 1,000 Watt amplifiers
- 20' x 8' x 8' Cargo container
- 53 Sheets 4' x 8' 18mm 13 ply Baltic Birch plywood
- 645 feet of 3" x 3" 1/4" angle iron
- 23 feet of 4" x 4" square steel tubing
- 39 feet of 1" x 1" X 1/4" angle iron
- 23 lbs of .030 welding wire
- 95 Tubes of heavy duty construction adhesive
- 1100 feet of 12 Gauge speaker cable
- Approx. 5000 screws and bolts
- $200 worth drill bits

[chad]

ok Chad.. so if you think my basic design wont work.. would you mind explaining why this one does?

http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm?/newsite/wo32.htm&intro

Not to diss Deckert but it doesn't, the mouth is simply too small and it acts as a simple bandpass, recently in another thread you may find me calling that exact design merely a "horn motor".

For smaller horns look into Tom Danley's tapped horn designs, but you ain't gonnna find plans.

Chad

Edit.... Doh, got beat to all of it :D

[Abaddon]

ok, thanks Chad

I guess I'll just make a boring ported enclosure then...

[chad]

ok, thanks Chad

I guess I'll just make a boring ported enclosure then...

Why?

There are all sorts of things out there to play with.

Horn bass/mid/high cabs.

Bandpass!!!! Bandpass systems got a HORRIBLE rap in the 90's because people just sucked at building them. It's another high efficiency design, the broader the bandwidth the less the efficiency boost but hell, why not try. I'm, goign to do a bandpass in the garage soon. Some of the world's finest touring PA's use bandpass subs..... because horns are too damn big, they know the passband they need, and they are efficient.

Chad

[Neil]

Information on Danley's tapped horns is out there...there has even been some "reverse engineering" done on his designs. I'll post what I have in bookmarks later tonight, if I get a chance.

I think one of the confusing things for many is the difference between appearing to be a horn and behaving like a horn. As Chad has alluded to several times already, you simply won't find a real horn for low frequency performance that isn't huge...like way huge.

[chad]

Information on Danley's tapped horns is out there...there has even been some "reverse engineering" done on his designs. I'll post what I have in bookmarks later tonight, if I get a chance.

I think one of the confusing things for many is the difference between appearing to be a horn and behaving like a horn. As Chad has alluded to several times already, you simply won't find a real horn for low frequency performance that isn't huge...like way huge.

BUT (not like this is going to work in a home) but to get it out there, you can array smaller horns mouth-to mouth to couple and act as one large horn ;)

And this bears repeating... big time.....


I think one of the confusing things for many is the difference between appearing to be a horn and behaving like a horn.

Chad

[havok20222]

WHY ARE WE YELLING!

Oh, I'm a horn speaker. I forgot.

[chad]

WHY ARE WE YELLING!

Oh, I'm a horn speaker. I forgot.

You have heard the Klipsch and Bose joke eh?

[dewi1219]

I use a horn sub in my HT. The design is from Bill Fitzmaurice (http://www.billfitzmaurice.com). It is big (30x30x24), but I disguised it as an end table so that it doesn't overtake the room. Loaded with two cheap 8" drivers it is efficient enough to literally shake the whole house running off a small 150W plate amp. Transients are super fast and tonal balance is really good with extension down to about 18Hz. Some guys here doubt horns, but it is the best sub I have had.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/dewi1219/Subwoofer1.jpg

[chad]

18 cycles...... Where's the rest of it?

[thehatedguy]

I've already posted one link to tapped horn design/layout. No one clicked the link to Cowan Audio?

The other post floating around is this one:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97674

Hornrsp and AJhorn both will model tapped horns as well.

[thehatedguy]

It might play to 18, but there is no way it is horn loaded to 18...down that low she's either acting as a bandpass or blowing straight through and is acting as a sealed box.

An 18 hertz horn is going to be in the magnitude of 20+ cubic feet.

I use a horn sub in my HT. The design is from Bill Fitzmaurice (http://www.billfitzmaurice.com). It is big (30x30x24), but I disguised it as an end table so that it doesn't overtake the room. Loaded with two cheap 8" drivers it is efficient enough to literally shake the whole house running off a small 150W plate amp. Transients are super fast and tonal balance is really good with extension down to about 18Hz. Some guys here doubt horns, but it is the best sub I have had.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b319/dewi1219/Subwoofer1.jpg

[chad]

I've already posted one link to tapped horn design/layout. No one clicked the link to Cowan Audio?



OK, you knew I'd bite :D

Sooo, what did you think of that 30HZ horn? Did you use the peerless driver? I know damn good and well when the neighbors were away...... well?

[thehatedguy]

It is insane. I have it on my plate amp, had to basically turn the amp all the way down to get her mated to the Edgarhorns. LOTS more output over sealed. But she's about 7' tall...

The shiny stuff is silicone where sealed her up since I built it in 2 pieces so it would fit in my car.

[dewi1219]

It might play to 18, but there is no way it is horn loaded to 18...down that low she's either acting as a bandpass or blowing straight through and is acting as a sealed box.

An 18 hertz horn is going to be in the magnitude of 20+ cubic feet.

You're right - it goes to direct radiator in the lower octave, but with the room gain the balance is good. It's WAY more efficient at 18Hz than my old sealed sub ever thought about. Like I said before, I know some of you guys don't care for horn subs, and I'm not trying to change your minds. I just want to state for the record that it works great for me. If my room and budget would allow, I would go multi-driver IB, but since that's not feasible this works great for me. I have no desire to change it.

[thehatedguy]

I love horns...some people haven't seen the light yet, and don't use horns.

[bassfromspace]

If I'm not mistaken, Deckert's Imperial Horn is over 20 cubes. I think it's 26 cubic feet.

[Ga foo 88]

Don't know much about it, but seems like something someone here could address ...

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=493

[chad]

Don't know much about it, but seems like something someone here could address ...

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=493

An absolutely beautiful flare and path length! I'd love to see build pics!

[chad]

Like I said before, I know some of you guys don't care for horn subs, and I'm not trying to change your minds......

I don't think you are going to find many people here that will turn their nose up to a proper horn ;)

[Neil]

I don't think you are going to find many people here that will turn their nose up to a proper horn ;)

Yes....on the contrary, I'd be willing to be that everyone who has posted in here so far loves horns.

[SSSnake]

Damn it!!! I was going to be perfectly content with my IB setup and now you guys have me wanting to try the tapped horn, AGAIN.

Jason, have you put your tapped horn on an RTA? The reason I ask is the mouth circumference looks small (not a dig, just wanting to learn...). With a tapped horn design do you only build the first half of the horn (throat to mid horn) or the last half (mid horn to mouth), or some other horn segment/flare?

Here's the deal... I have three ID Maxs that I want to use. Target response is 20 to 50 hz. I have a LOT of room behind a wall in my den (30 ft tall wall - below the roof line). I assume a horn length of 13.25'. Would the mouth circumference need to be 27.5'? I can get 16' but not much more.

[thehatedguy]

Mine is a direct copy of the 30 hertz tapped horn on www.cowanaudio.com

All I did was convert the metric to english and built her up. This is a really easy design to build...just freaking large.

No, haven't had a chance to play with a RTA. When I get the laptop setup worked out, I'll take some measurements. I would assume it would measure similarly to the one on Cowan's site...the IDQ12 has similar specs to the Peerless he used.

[zukiaudio]

Mine is a direct copy of the 30 hertz tapped horn on www.cowanaudio.com

All I did was convert the metric to english and built her up. This is a really easy design to build...just freaking large.

No, haven't had a chance to play with a RTA. When I get the laptop setup worked out, I'll take some measurements. I would assume it would measure similarly to the one on Cowan's site...the IDQ12 has similar specs to the Peerless he used.






what cd player is being used ?

[thehatedguy]

Zuki, I have a Sony S7000 feeding a modified Bel Canto DAC2...my Benchmark DAC1 is off being modded.

[zukiaudio]

Zuki, I have a Sony S7000 feeding a modified Bel Canto DAC2...my Benchmark DAC1 is off being modded.


so you have a sony transport.

i see a cd with a green edge too ha.


:D

[thehatedguy]

Yeap...no idea where that CD came from :cool:

[zukiaudio]

:D

[havok20222]

You have heard the Klipsch and Bose joke eh?

I sell both.... I've heard all the jokes. :p

[chad]

Mine is a direct copy of the 30 hertz tapped horn on www.cowanaudio.com

All I did was convert the metric to english and built her up. This is a really easy design to build...just freaking large.

No, haven't had a chance to play with a RTA. When I get the laptop setup worked out, I'll take some measurements. I would assume it would measure similarly to the one on Cowan's site...the IDQ12 has similar specs to the Peerless he used.

I know it would REALLY make the build more difficult but couldn't one fold it up and make it squattier?

[SSSnake]

You can always fold horns but the folds increase other issues. If I remember correctly every fold tends to reduce efficiency and increase horn resonances. Again this is just from memory, I would have to pull out my horn theory book and review. The major issue I think is that the more folds you put in a horn the less it behaves like an ideal horn (you start having to play tricks with the crossectional area in the folds to maintain contant air velocity, etc.). Again that is just from memory. Its been too long since I critically looked at horn design.

[chad]

You can always fold horns but the folds increase other issues. If I remember correctly every fold tends to reduce efficiency and increase horn resonances. Again this is just from memory, I would have to pull out my horn theory book and review. The major issue I think is that the more folds you put in a horn the less it behaves like an ideal horn (you start having to play tricks with the crossectional area in the folds to maintain contant air velocity, etc.). Again that is just from memory. Its been too long since I critically looked at horn design.

I think your right, I don't know about the efficinecy thing but I belive you are right on target on everyting else. unless the resonance causes destructive nodal issues.

What books do you have?

[thehatedguy]

Yeah, you can fold the tapped designs. There is a guy on the diyaudio link that I posted who built the tall one, then later cut it in half and stuck the pieces side-by-side to make it shorter. I've actually ended up laying mine down behind the Edgarhorns on the floor and have it exhausting upwards right in the middle of the mid horns. Seemed to sound best that way,and more safe with a 6 year old on the loose.

And at the frequencies we are playing through these horns, I wouldn't worry much about loosing any efficiency or being super super anal about things since the wavelengths are so long. But generally a straight horn will have better low level detail over folded designs. If you want to know more about the math of it all, go here and read the Bruce Edgar articles: http://www.volvotreter.de/dl-section.htm

He also has a tapped horn spread sheet along with the tractix spread sheet there as well. And some nice plans for a 77 hertz conical midbass horn (I built something really similar before he posted his plans).

[a$$hole]

Jason or anyone else, have you found this [free program ] beneficial ?
http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/

[SSSnake]

Yes, however it is not set up tapped horns (which right now is piquing my interest).

[thehatedguy]

You should be able to do tapped horns with it, that is according to the guys on diyaudio.

[SSSnake]

I'll take a look but from what I understand HornResp for a tapped horn it is more of a more high level approximation.


From DIY Audio Thread
Yes, it looks bad for the tapped horn, but hornresp is not simulating the full story. A tapped horn such as this is a 1/4 wave horn at 18 Hz which is what hornresp shows, but at the same time it is a 1/2 wave horn at 36 Hz. This is what hornresp doesn't show. With the correct driver, the result is that the response is flat and the dips are filled in.


I think that you can do a two pass approach (1/4 wave and 1/2 wave freqs) and get pretty close.

[lilmike]

Jason or anyone else, have you found this [free program ] beneficial ?
http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/

Hi.

Recently found this place, and stumbled upon this discussion - something I might be able to contribute a bit to.

The current version (17) of McBean's Hornresp will model tapped horn enclosures effectively. It is a bit fiddly, but it can be done. It is relatively accurate based on what I've done so far.

Hornresp is also effective at modeling the long-path horns like Bill F. designs, as well as just about anything else that can be horn loaded.

Tapped horns can be folded, just like any bass horn. It all depends on the shape of the enclosure you're after. When built like Cowan's are, tapped horns are a stupid easy build, anything folded gets complicated quickly.

[lilmike]

Hi.

Recently found this place, and stumbled upon this discussion - something I might be able to contribute a bit to.

The current version (17) of McBean's Hornresp will model tapped horn enclosures effectively. It is a bit fiddly, but it can be done. It is relatively accurate based on what I've done so far.

Hornresp is also effective at modeling the long-path horns like Bill F. designs, as well as just about anything else that can be horn loaded.

Tapped horns can be folded, just like any bass horn. It all depends on the shape of the enclosure you're after. When built like Cowan's are, tapped horns are a stupid easy build, anything folded gets complicated quickly.

[a$$hole]

Welcome to DIYMA !! lilmike !:)

[a$$hole]

Smaller Acoustic Load Angles
In horn type loudspeakers the acoustic radiation from the horn driver is funneled into an even smaller solid angle than "eighth space" and achieves increased power output as a result of the horn load. The smaller solid angles constitute a "stiffer" acoustic load and draws more power from the source analogous to the way that a lower impedance speaker draws more power from the amplifier driving it. Indeed, horns have been likened to "acoustic transformers" for the way that they can be used to match the impedance of the driving source to the impedance of the load to effect maximum power transfer.

[Fellippe]

It might play to 18, but there is no way it is horn loaded to 18...down that low she's either acting as a bandpass or blowing straight through and is acting as a sealed box.

An 18 hertz horn is going to be in the magnitude of 20+ cubic feet.

That's all?

What about that humongous horn loaded setup I sent you in that link? The one that's a tunnel in his own house!

And it's only tuned to 30 hertz!

I don't understand.

[SSSnake]

Ooops, I don't have v17. It looks like time to update, I'm on v14. Thanks for the tip.

[thehatedguy]

You have to remember how long a 30 hertz wave is...and the fact those are full sized horns. Most home horns are designed to be placed near a wall or a corner and use that as an extension of the mouth, and if you go that route, you can make the horn say 3/16 or a 1/4 size of normal. Horns placed in free space need to really be full sized since they don't benefit from barrier loading.

That's all?

What about that humongous horn loaded setup I sent you in that link? The one that's a tunnel in his own house!

And it's only tuned to 30 hertz!

I don't understand.

[Abaddon]

Just a random side note...

I was humming along this afternoon and realized the best possible example of a horn are our voices. Pretty damn perfect example I would think...

[thehatedguy]

No, not really.

[Abaddon]

well, horns basic (only?) function is to couple the speaker to the air... right?

Wouldn't our throats and mouth do the exact same thing?

[thehatedguy]

No, that's not the only function of a horn.

A horn provides increased efficiency and pattern control- it amplifies the work done by the driver.

I don't think your mouth and throat provide any amplification. Considering how small the mouth is and how short your throat is, it wouldn't load the vocal chords below 1k or so.

[Abaddon]

well yes, but the coupling of the driver to the air, is the reason for the efficiency increase...

So Wouldn't having the human vocal chords acting on a reduced air volume, have the same basic advantages?

I doubt you could get the same volume of the vocal chords external to the human body...

[thehatedguy]

Above the loading frequency, it would act as a horn...but below that, which is most of our vocal range it wouldn't load.

[Abaddon]

Above the loading frequency, it would act as a horn...but below that, which is most of our vocal range it wouldn't load.

Ahhhhh... good explanation.. thanks :)

[chad]

Above the loading frequency, it would act as a horn...but below that, which is most of our vocal range it wouldn't load.

Must be why a girl's scream hurts sooo Effing bad!

[thehatedguy]

I wonder if there is a correlation between those loading frequencies of the vocal chords and the Fletcher-Munson curve?

[chad]

I wonder if there is a correlation between those loading frequencies of the vocal chords and the Fletcher-Munson curve?

Absolutely!

I took the boy roller skating last weekend and there was a group of girls that would scream in unison as one would fall, we are talking like an "at a boy-band concert" scream.

It would make you dizzy it was so horrible, and THEN there was the beat frequency that felt like someone was pounding your head with a tack hammer.

I wanted to hockey-check them.

Chad

[300Z]

I wanted to hockey-check them.

Chad
LOL :D

[chad]

LOL :D

Well they skated in a line broad side, they were amateurs, I was on hockey Rollerblades, It was "know WTF you are doing" skate time, and felt like it. It would have been like a 20MPH 200Lb bowling ball. hammer them all in a line going around a corner, never would have known what hit them..... :D

[300Z]

Well they skated in a line broad side, they were amateurs, I was on hockey Rollerblades, It was "know WTF you are doing" skate time, and felt like it. It would have been like a 20MPH 200Lb bowling ball. hammer them all in a line going around a corner, never would have known what hit them..... :D
Awesome... I got some hockey skates too but mine are quads... :D Didn't knew you could skate too... what can't you do? :)

[chad]

Awesome... I got some hockey skates too but mine are quads... :D Didn't knew you could skate too... what can't you do? :)

It's a guilty pleasure :blush:

Hadn't done it in a LONG time then we took the boy a few times, he got the hang of it, it's getting me in shape, so we go about every week now :blush: They have a Wednesday night skate and it's nice to go get some stress out. Saturday mornings it's nice to go because it will knock a slight hangover RIGHT OUT! :D

My wife is damn good, she can stil do all the old-skool stuff, it's a riot watching a MILF go out there and just throw down.

I had my first epic spill last Saturday after aging, I had no idea a 200Lb man could stay airborne for so long, lest I forget weight has no effect on rate of fall but only energy upon meeting the ground... and that little thing called inertia, ouch

Chad

[300Z]

That's awesome. I used to go skate every week since 1990, played roller hockey for a couple of months in '94 and then had to stop skating 2 years ago because of knee but I'm about to get back at it. It's great exercise.
Jamskate rocks! and there is some damn fine chicks at one of the local skate rinks, 18 and up only... :D