Simple, cheap, and effective door treatments

[npdang]

Here's a list of some easy and affordable door treatments that I've found to greatly improve the clarity, as well as the total bass output and low end extension of your mid/bass. If you're using high quality drivers in the doors, proper treatment and install is a must.

First thing's first. Make sure to sound deaden your door. This will make the largest difference in reducing annoying rattles. Make sure to do both the inner panel and the outer panel. Use a good 2 or 3 layers. A heat gun or even a hair dryer can be used to soften the deadener up for making it more moldable and easier to apply. Find a good asphalt based mat that is cheap, easy to work with, sticks well under room temperature, and doesn't fall off in extreme heat. I use and recommend Raamat which you can find here: http://www.raamaudio.com/
60 sqft of deadener should be more than enough for 2 doors.

As for liquid sound deadeners, I don't use them for a simple reason. They take forever to apply! You would need to clean your door, then apply a single coat. Allow it to dry, then apply another coat. With thick coats and bad weather, it can sometimes take up to a full day to dry between layers. I'd save the liquid deadener for hard to reach places, or for areas where mat doesn't stick easily such as the roof of the cabin or trunk. In my experience, the effectiveness is about the same as a decently thick asphalt based deadener.

Also, you can sometimes reduce annoying door mechanism rattles by applying a bit of thick grease to the part.

The next thing I like to do is seal up any large holes in the door panel. Doing this very noticeably increases the bass output. I like to use plexiglass since it's somewhat cheap and weatherproof... and also looks nice. It's also much sturdier than trying to stretch sound deadener over a large hole. Cut out a piece that fits your hole, use a bit of silicon, liquid nails, or other thick adhesive/sealant and then slide it in. These panels can be easily removed with a screwdriver worked into the edges if maintenance on the door is needed.

Next, I glue a large sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker location. These do hold water, so you may want to treat it to avoid mold growth. It won't rust your door however, since the foam sits on top of the sound deadener. If you live in a more humid climate, you could use a "Deflex" pad which is sold here: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=268-242

You should notice a slight improvement to your midrange. For me, the egg carton foam was a bit more effective than the Deflex pad.

Last but not least, buy ~2lbs of non-hardening modelling clay and a small sheet of 3/4" or 1/2" mdf. Cut a ring or baffle for your speaker to sit on. Place about 5mm tall height of clay on both sides of the ring. Now mount the speaker to one side of the ring, and the ring to your door. Decoupling the speaker from the actual door itself will further reduce vibrations, and clean up your midrange and bass. As an added touch, I like to add a bit more clay around the baffle in order to add weight to the area and further dampen any vibrations.

3/4" mdf baffle with non-hardening modelling clay atop.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door1.jpg

Seas Excel w18 with non-hardening modelling clay around the baffle.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door2.jpg
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door3.jpg

Notice the plexiglass + liquid nails which was used to cover the hole in the door panel. Also, notice the 3 layers of deadener on the outside door panel through the glass.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door4.jpg

Sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door5.jpg
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door8.jpg

Deflex pad behind the speaker.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door7.jpg

Shot of my trunk lid with asphalt based sound deadener applied.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/trunk2.jpg

Shot of my trunk with about a 4mm layer of liquid deadener applied.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/trunk1.jpg

[minitruck_freq]

how firm will the modeling clay get? i just read over on ECA that when hot it can drip :?: is it similar to play-do?

[kappa546]

cool article.... i was just going to make a thread on eca about where to get modeling clay but i guess i'll ask here. why use non hardening as opposed to hardening?

[kappa546]

double post sry

[npdang]

It does get soft and putty like when hot, but these pics you see have been in my car for over a year and a half. I couldn't imagine it getting hot enough to drip.

You can buy non-hardening clay at any arts and crafts store. I think the hardening kind gets dry and brittle which is why you want the non-hardening.

[kappa546]

well i was planning on laying a coat of liquid deadener on top of them anyways so that shouldnt be a problem i dont htink. thanks

[Eastcoast]

Once you scew the speaker down doesn't all the clay just squish out anyway??

I agree on the deflex pads...they made a huge difference in my doors. My doors get water in them so I decided not to go with the foam.

[10K2HVN]

npdang,

when you used expanding foam for your trunk, did you use hard-drying (cracks and holes) or soft-drying foam (window frame)..?

[npdang]

The clay does squish out when you screw it down, that's why you don't screw it down all the way :) I like to leave 3-5mm of clay on each side of the mdf baffle.

I also use the soft expanding foam in my trunk lid... I know the hard one can wrinkle your lid if you use too much. Either way, fill your trunk in small amounts at a time and let it fully dry before adding more... I learned the hard way and tried to dump 3-4 cans in at once and it took months to dry... all the while leaking the entire time.

[10K2HVN]

I also use the soft expanding foam in my trunk lid... I know the hard one can wrinkle your lid if you use too much. Either way, fill your trunk in small amounts at a time and let it fully dry before adding more... I learned the hard way and tried to dump 3-4 cans in at once and it took months to dry... all the while leaking the entire time.
lol..thats what it says on the instructions...

did you ever get that stuff off your paint?

[npdang]

I also use the soft expanding foam in my trunk lid... I know the hard one can wrinkle your lid if you use too much. Either way, fill your trunk in small amounts at a time and let it fully dry before adding more... I learned the hard way and tried to dump 3-4 cans in at once and it took months to dry... all the while leaking the entire time.
lol..thats what it says on the instructions...

did you ever get that stuff off your paint?

Lol... gonna have to repaint my bumper.

[DS-21]

Honestly, this thread is one of the finest car audio pieces I've ever read in terms of concrete and effective ways to improve the sound quality in ANY car. However, one question:

Next, I glue a large sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker location. These do hold water, so you may want to treat it to avoid mold growth.

I'd never thought of doing that, but it would certainly be a much cheaper (and IMO no less effective) treatment than Black Hole 5 or Deflex. What kind of treatment would prevent mold without stiffening the foam unduly?

[squeak9798]

I'd never thought of doing that, but it would certainly be a much cheaper (and IMO no less effective) treatment than Black Hole 5 or Deflex. What kind of treatment would prevent mold without stiffening the foam unduly?

I too would like to know what products can be used to avoid having the egg crate mold or hold too much water.

[npdang]

I'd try using a closed cell acoustical foam like such:

http://www.soundprooffoam.com/closed_cell_foam.html

[drocpsu]

how do you think this stuff (wit the peel & stick backing) would work? 1/8" thick, but is supposed to be great. granted, its really expensive. Seems like it could be great for doors or trunk lid to add mass and give some good soundproofing at the same time.

[raamaudio]

My first post here guys:) Great site, I should of joined sooner!

Most excellent thread and thanks for the props, I do have a couple of comments for now though;)

1) Our product is now butyl based just like the big dogs, has been for some time now.

2) I use Ensolite foam behind the speakers instead of a Deflex pad or the egg crate stuff, it works rather well and costs practially nothing for such a small piece.

3) We, my son is now a part of what we do, are fellow enthusiasts first, business second, we love car audio and performance and will do all we can to help others achieve thier goals, wether or not you buy from us does not matter in the least, we are here to help:)

Thanks, have a great day!
Rick

[goskers]

I purchased a roll of the mat 60 from Raam Audio and they were very responsive. Very quick shipment which is always a nice thing to see :)

I haven't received the roll for installation yet but it should be here by the end of the week.

[hornyforhorns]

Instead of using regular sound deadening mat, would using non hardening clay to fill up the holes in the doors and layer the doors have the same effect as the mat? I figure the non hardening clay will do the same purpose of sealing up the door, adding mass, and reducing vibration. What do you guys think about this idea??

[goskers]

Filling small holes and divots in your doors with clay sounds like a pretty darned good idea to me. If you just filled in the low spots with clay, applying your actual door treatment would be easier as you would have to conform to a lot less terrain.

[vibrator]

anyone have a favorite liquid deadner? I was thinking of picking up a 5 gal bucket of SS spectrum for $150 (seems like a good deal) to spray on my floor and in the trunk. Anyone know how effective this stuff is?

[npdang]

Liquid is ok... it's about the same effectiveness as mat but it can be easier to apply in some areas (like the roof or floor). I generally don't recommend it because it can be a chore to have to paint one layer, let it dry for half a day, paint another layer, on and on... whereas mat you just slap it on and you're done.

[kappa546]

i loved the spectrum i bought. works well, its easy... and contrary to what everyone else is saying mine dried pretty damn fast, just work outside on a hot day. i would paint one door, go to the other and i could jump right back to the other as it was pretty dry by then.

[10K2HVN]

yes, my spectrum dried fairly quickly too..faster then eD liquid crap! even if their newer products look better, i will never buy another product from them again. :x

anyways..

just added egg crate foam behind my mids!

cut to shape and cut small so they can fit through the door holes easily, then coated with A1 Fabric Shield and let to dry inside the car on a sunny day. When coating the edges, i overlapped to pieces so that i didnt waste any overspraying..
http://www.teamtoxicbass.com/~vinny/door1.jpg
installed!
http://www.teamtoxicbass.com/~vinny/door2.jpg
life of a speaker..
http://www.teamtoxicbass.com/~vinny/door3.jpg

i also added 2 more square feet of Second Skin Damplifier (reg) to the outer panel of each door (near the locking mechanism) - i thought i might as well because i had the panel off...

Before: 1 to 2 layers of Damplifier Pro on outer panel, 1 layer on inner panel (door holes not pluged yet - need to get more dampener).

After: 1 sheet of egg crate foam on top of 2 layers of Damplifier reg/Pro on outer panel, and 1 layer on inner panel (door holes not pluged yet).

Subjective: Im not really sure if it was the extra 2 sq ft of dampener on the opposite side of the door from the speaker but i feel it made a pretty impressionable difference! The door sound much closer to NpDangs car with the mids sounding like theyre in a small monitor enclosure and less like theyre in a door! Bass, midbass and midrange sound more defined, cleaner and puchier. the change in overall sound also effected the staging/imaging. Staging and imaging raised and also were more defined.

I also tried opening the windows with the glass directly behind the woofer. its seemed to revert back to when i didnt have egg crate foam inside. midbass got a little harsh and uncontrolled.. so then i tried it with the windows half way down, leaving the glass clear of the back of the woofer and it still sounded good! i thought, maybe the difference in how much the window was open affected the sound so i opend the back windows to compensate but it still sounded good!

so in the end, i feel it made worthwhile difference! :)

heres my midbasses in case anyone hasnt seen it yet..
http://www.teamtoxicbass.com/%7Evinny//lcyh1224.jpg

Goodtimes!

[minitruck_freq]

where did u get the a1 fabric shield?

[10K2HVN]

i got it from A1 Foam & Fabrics (http://www.yellowpages.com/aspx/map/map.aspx?BusName=A+1+FOAM+%26+FABRICS+AND+UPHOLSTE RY+SUPPLY+COMPANY&street=1812+S+MAIN+STREET&city=S ANTA+ANA&state=CA&zipcode=92707&BusPhone=(714)+835-1181+&lat=33.72436&lng=-117.86786&zoom=2&offsetx=0&offsety=0&width=400&hei ght=400&user_id=1a21d32a-da3e-4455-a08b-63a606b120f8&session_id=212b4b52-5108-4bbe-a41a-76d99e2b02bf&user_ip=69.108.92.28&search_id=1&sub_ search_id=0&web_server=ypc_web4&partner_id=1&produ ctid=-1) since theyre kinda local.. but maybe you can find something online..? (i couldnt find A1 online)

[PlanetGranite]

Wow! This thread just keeps getting better and better! Great stuff here guys! :D

[minitruck_freq]

does the thickness of the foam matter? i have several sheets of 3/4" and 2" foam. not sure which to use. :? and would any spray sealer work? as long as the foam stays soft?

[10K2HVN]

i would think any sealer would work as long as it stays soft..

id say use what you can fit.

[jdrockafella]

npdang: this is great because I have a 5th gen accord like yours. Where did you put your tweeters in your install?
also, you had plenty of clearance even with a .75" spacer? I made mine last night and wasn't sure if it would have enough clearance. Any other tips on the accord?

raam: emailed you before I saw your post about some ensolite, looks like you might get that $$ back.

[cam2Xrunner]

npdang: this is great because I have a 5th gen accord like yours. Where did you put your tweeters in your install?
also, you had plenty of clearance even with a .75" spacer? I made mine last night and wasn't sure if it would have enough clearance. Any other tips on the accord?

raam: emailed you before I saw your post about some ensolite, looks like you might get that $$ back.

Refer to this thread.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3

[BBOYSTEVIE]

Great info here...thanks.

My doors are already deadened, but I'm trying to isolate and kill leftover rattles before putting in my Seas speakers and ribbons, so a few more questions.

First off, I have plenty more raamat and some ensolite on the way, so if more deadening is the answer, that won't be a prob (once it gets here). I've also ordered deflex pads.


First off, even though I'm here to ask a question, I wanted to point out that this stuff worked for me well as a final layer http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=misc%2fsearchR esults.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@0409996125.1117541054@ @@@&BV_EngineID=ccehaddekifmdelcgelceffdfgidgln.0& MID=9876 Maybe someone else may want to try it and get back to us.

After a few layers of the liquid stuff, a few layers of raamat, and a layer of this duct insulation, I still have some "locatable" rattles as well as the sound of pressure inside my door when bass hits....not as much a rattle as a overarching thug in there when bass hits.

First off, the grease didn't work for the door latch part. Any other recommendations? Theres definately some noise coming from this area.

Second....has anyone tried drilling a few small holes in the door to reduce that pressure. I'm talking about holes towards the not where the air will go back into the cabin, but outside. I was thinking about this on the edge of the door towards the back of the car...seems like theres plenty of possible "ventelation spots" that wouldn't let air in the cabin area or water in the door.
I feel like the less sealed the door is (and thus the more exposed it is to the outside world), the less of that thud that will occurr. Anyone tried this?

Finally, what is the ensolite for? Is this going to make the doorpanel (when I lean on it) seem deader, like it's not vibrating inside?

Thanks for any help/suggestions.

[demon2091tb]

Ensolite is an acoustical sound barrier, makes things quieter on the inside from the outside, things like road noises and road rumble. Also Makes things quieter on the outside like music and all to pedestrians and whatnot.

Not sure of the exact amount of db drop though of before and after of road noises.

[low]

great site.

hey vin, how is it when you roll down your windows? does it rub against the foam? umm..wanna deaden some bimmer doors? ;)

[xDeLiRiOuSx]

Just thought I'd post my results too!

Thanks the Npdang's guide, I've dramatically reduce my rattling on the door panels. Thanks to Rick (raammat), who made raammat affordable! Here's what my doors look like now!

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45

Take a look at page 4 near the end. You'll see pictures of my accord coupe door (1994).

David

[10K2HVN]

great site.

hey vin, how is it when you roll down your windows? does it rub against the foam? umm..wanna deaden some bimmer doors? ;)
i just trimed the top so it doesnt touch the window anymore..

sure, i dont mind at all..! its not like the G35 doors where theres only a speaker hole is it..? :shock:

the only problem is that after you coat the foam with fabric protectent its suppose to dry before you apply it..

you can order the foam from www.partsexpress.com then i could pick up the A1 Fabric Shield and A1 Adhesive (i ran all out). then when you come up we could try to do it all in one day.....?

[newtitan]

dude your doors are REAALY long LOL


man I need to hear these seas mids everyone keeps raving about

nice pics :)

here are my doors wiht some bquiet ultimate (last year stuff) wish bxt raamat was out when I did my doors since its soo muh thicker and I could have used less oh well next car :)


and there is mat under the orignal jute carpet (I just removed it--added mat--then glued it back on--thought it couldnt hurt)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/newtitan/IMG_3141Large.jpg

and with my old IR8's (that I really miss )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/newtitan/MID3.jpg


on my new install I used foam between the metal and the wood much better !!


still havent tried deflex pads yet

next time I go in my door

[simplespirit]

I see a lot of people deaden the inside walls of the outer door skin. How do you get your hands in there to properly cover the skin?

[ludlamtheory]

I see a lot of people deaden the inside walls of the outer door skin. How do you get your hands in there to properly cover the skin?

you hire some midgets so crawl in there

or

you just cut your mat into little pieces and do it little by little

[MiloX]

...its not like the G35 doors where theres only a speaker hole is it..? :shock:

HEY!!! I resemble that remark! Actually, I was thinking the same thing when I took the panels off my G for the first time... How in the hell am I going to deaden the outer skin????

*sigh*

[xDeLiRiOuSx]

Wow a G35 owner :) I really like the looks of that car, did you get the coupe? Anyway, Could I see a picture of your doors? I'm not sure I can imagine what "just a speaker hole" means.

Can you install Pearless 8" in it? (4" mounting depth)


David

[MiloX]

Dave,

I'll post some pics when I take the door panel off again. I have a sedan. I know, much more sedate than the coupe. But I just love the "sedan-ness" of it. EMBRACE THE SEDAN.

Plus, the 300 ponies mated to the 6MT ain't so bad!

The mounting depth is 3 13/16"

At least according to the math I did in this post:
http://g35driver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55764

[MiloX]

Oh.. and there is a BIG access panel in the door. Nissan did us a favor by skinning over all of the holes. It just needs to be removed to access the window mechanicals.

[xDeLiRiOuSx]

Cool! Personally I would get the coupe w/ the MT but that's the sedan looks much more classy. People say I look/act too mature for my age, hence a coupe will improve my image too :)

Please take some pictures when you get a chance, I would love to see how the doors are structured.

David

[dennisp]

Hey yall, nice site btw. :)
Anyways, I'm about to properly deaden my doors and I have some questions.
How thick of plexiglass should I use? Should I use wood instead?
Here's the hole to give yall an idea.
http://img213.echo.cx/img213/9255/dscn08304pa.th.jpg (http://img213.echo.cx/my.php?image=dscn08304pa.jpg)

Also, here's where my mid goes. I threw out the stock plastic speaker holder for obvious reasons.
http://img213.echo.cx/img213/4143/dscn08319qi.th.jpg (http://img213.echo.cx/my.php?image=dscn08319qi.jpg)
I'm thinking I should use mdf but not sure what thickness would be sufficient. There's going to be an mdf spacer mounted on top of the baffle that covers that hole.
I have spectrum on the way for the outer panel and deflex pads here so that's already covered.
Thanks yall. :D

[cam2Xrunner]

You are planning on deadening the outer door skin aren't you? That part is VERY important.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/trdcamry2003/th_HPIM0801.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/trdcamry2003/HPIM0801.jpg)

[dennisp]

yah, that's what I meant by outer panel. sorry about the n00b terminology. :oops:
also, what do you use to cut plexiglass? I've heard it chips when you use a jigsaw sometimes.

[daitrong]

use a finer thread blade :wink:

[raamaudio]

Shsshsshsss, here are a few techniques I use when setting up a car I plan to race alot and have to be very carefull with weight control so channot just mat the hell out of it, just do not tell anyone, lol!

1) Large unsuported body panels, i.e. qtr panels on 2 doors, inside doors with speakers in them.
I use very thin wall aluminum channels mounted horizontally, they have to be bent to conform the area the are mounted to, I do this from outside the car so I can see what I am doing. I mark where I want them inside the car, then on the outside, match them up and when I get them all done, go inside and install them. Usually about every 4-6" apart, as long as I can possibly get them to fit.
I bond them to the area with double sided commercial glazing foam tape, not easy to find. This does give a little which is acceptable, preferable really, just enough to keep from warping the exterior of the car, expand and contract without breaking free, etc.
Next I apply vertical strips of mat over them, depending on the area, results I need, etc, I may have them 2" wide spaced 3-5" apart, up to 3-4" wide spaced 4-5" apart, whatever seems to be needed, hard to just tell somebody this, I have done many tricks over the years and it takes experience to guesstimate this correctly.
I may add more channel right behind the speakers and more mat then a layer of ensolite at least 12" sq in that area as well.
Next I evaluate and then beef up the speaker baffel area, usually 1/8" guage channel, has to be bent to the shape needed, I may just use one diagonal piece or several, depends on the area, access, one or two midbasses, etc.
Once fitted I use the double sided tape again then self drilling screws and drill through the inner door metal and into the channel(channel is inside the door;) On occasion I may have to weld a couple of pieces of the channel together, I suck at aluminum so have it done but all they have to do is weld, I bring it attached to an alignment jig.

In the end, this is alot more work and the results are not alot greater than just using whatever mat and foam I would otherwise but I can save several pounds per door. I look at the whole car concept and do exactly what is needed in each area of the car to get job done.

------

Our current project car will see alot of SCCA autocross action against M3's, STI's, etc, we have to do a great deal of work to control every once of weight and where it is located to get our desired results, this project will take at least 200 hours to fully deaden and we will have approx a 10 lb weight reduction over stock instead of weight gain. We removed all factory deadening and caulking aready, working on seam welding the chassis, and this is one I did to my Tacoma, messy and expensive.

We are filling every pillar, crossmember, frame rails, etc, etc, with an expensive two part eurathane foam, several days worth of prep, will spend somewhere between $600 to $800 on materials, several more days worth of cleanup and cleaning out mounting areas for the trim pops, seatbelts, etc.

This will dramatically stiffen the chassis and will reduce road noise significantly as well.

Do not tell everyone what we do, they may start doing this as well and buy less of our mat;) J/K, I have shared this with dozens of people but only a couple ever do something as anal as this.

We are doing may other things for weight control, relocating some, expensive body part replacement, etc, etc, in the end we will have a full interior, comp audio system(15"sub) better balance than stock and weigh in at approx 150lbs less than a totally stock car. If we pull the sub and amp rack out, rear seats and seatbelts, we will still met the rules for Street Mod class and then be around 250lbs lighter than stock, going to try to race it effectively with the audio gear in the care, want to bump some heavy bass, play some Audiophile music, etc, while we race, lol!

Rick

Rick

[demon2091tb]

Hot damn......I hate you rick...........When we gonna get some more pics of the tC, i'm excited to see how much you've done with it, went and picked mine up at the dealer the other day and OMG i'm loving this car. Gonna hopefully start running some wiring soon and gonna hold off of deadener for a few more weeks.

[raamaudio]

Pics, lol, I am really bad about that, to busy most of the time having fun working on a project or running my business.

The tC is a very well made car and for the most part deadened nicely from the factory but they just plain screwed up in a few key areas, primarily the sides after the doors, big noise problems there but easy to fix, once that is done then general deadening everwhere else and does not need a ton of materials, depending on your desired results, to make it a nice quiet ride.

Rick

[OldOneEye]

Not sure if I'm being a total newb, but for people reading this and heading down to Home Depot/Lowes to get some foam, the foam you are talking about is a pretty specialized foam not available usually in stores, correct?

Remember reading an article where they discussed a two part foam they put into the channels on my car (a Nissan 200SX) that run beneath the door. Fill them with a two part foam (a foam that doesn't require air I guess to cure, get that stuff from the hardware store and the ends exposed to air will cure, sealing air out from the middle that won't cure at all.

Juan


Shsshsshsss, here are a few techniques I use when setting up a car I plan to race alot and have to be very carefull with weight control so channot just mat the hell out of it, just do not tell anyone, lol!

We are filling every pillar, crossmember, frame rails, etc, etc, with an expensive two part eurathane foam, several days worth of prep, will spend somewhere between $600 to $800 on materials, several more days worth of cleanup and cleaning out mounting areas for the trim pops, seatbelts, etc.

Rick

Rick

[MIAaron]

There are automotive mastics that do the same thing. It's actually cured by heat. You just have to be very careful how much you apply because it can deform sheet metal when cured. Even structural components like pillars.

[Halonix]

Is the clay really necessary? Could you just make a "gasket" out of rubber or foam or something?

[AzGrower]

I'd try using a closed cell acoustical foam like such:

http://www.soundprooffoam.com/closed_cell_foam.html

Since Rick (Raam Audio) is a member here and I use his products with great success, just a side note to say he also sells closed cell foam. Its known as Ensolite. He gives a nice price on those.

[cam2Xrunner]

I think I'll be using a combination of those two choices. Ensolite between the door and the door panels, also between the headliner and the roof. The thicker 1/2" closed cell foam lined on the inside ofthe outer door panel as well as the floor under the carpet. Then use a egg crate type foam directly behind the speakers(or ensolite)

1/2" closed cell foam should decrease more roadnoise than the 1/8" thick ensolite foam. They both have their places in my install.

[xfree]

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door5.jpg
how to stick egg foam to the metal? do you still use board between the metal and foam or directly foam with the metal using adhesive?
and whaqt kind of adhesive did you use..
sorry for the ignorance..

[PeteyGoesBoom]

npDang....

http://order.americanmicroinc.com/cgi-bin/americanmicroinc/ord/basket.html?
mv_action=refresh&mv_order_item=MIN0504X6GRY


Which is better for my doors, the Acoustical type or Soundproof type. One is a flat faced sheet, the other is a "egg carton" faced sheet. Thet both will do the same, I think, but which of the two would you recommend. My doors are currently fully dampened. I will be going with, most likely, the Seas Excels 8".

Thanks, Pete

[Derek]

petenyc?


i'm loving the results of the closed cell foam in the doors....

[daitrong]

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door5.jpg
how to stick egg foam to the metal? do you still use board between the metal and foam or directly foam with the metal using adhesive?
and whaqt kind of adhesive did you use..
sorry for the ignorance..

3m adhesive spray

[minitruck_freq]

3M Super 77 adhesive spray. it will glue your kids stuffed animals to cabinet carpet too. :mad:

[PeteyGoesBoom]

Hey,

I just received today my Acoustical "Egg Carton" Foam from the website you have listed above, shown in the link below:

http://www.soundprooffoam.com/convoluted_studio_acoustical_foam.html

I noticed that you said getting the "closed cell" foam. But I also noticed that you did say and show pictured the "egg carton" type as I purchased?
Which is better? Did I buy the right one? I'm putting it in all my doors, behind the midbass drivers and mids in the kicks (Is this OK?) My ddors are very well dampened as well.

Woudl it be appropriate to put this anywhere else? I have a 4' X 8' sheet, so I can throw it wherever you tell me, if it helps! Also, is the egg carton type I bought as good as the closed cell? Should I just glue down the egg carton sheet to the doors over the Dynamat?


Thanks for your help!
Pete

[PeteyGoesBoom]

Hey Derek, LOL

What are you following me around? LOL

Yeah, this is PeteNYC. Found this forum... are real good place! Really enjoty it and learn a lot here.

I bought that "egg carton" stuff, and got it today. Hope it's as good as the closed cell stuff. Will be putting it in my doors that are already dampened. I posted a link above this reply of what I bought.

Is it good for behind the drivers in already dampened doors?

Oh yeah, my installer, who is ridiculous SQ related, is trying to get me to buy DLS 8.3 midbass's. They're like $600 a pair, just for the mids!. They come from the DLS Iridium 3 way set.

They say all the big competition cars have them. Also, offers a 3.5 inch depth and a 4 ohm rating, always good. What have you heard on them?


Nice to see you here, Derek!!!
PeteNYCGoesBoom!

[GMo]

Most standard open cell (the egg crate) have slightly better sound absorption characteristics than closed cell as per thickness. I don't think there would be a noticeable difference though, especially in a car.
The benefits of closed cell over open would be closed are more dense and more rigid generally. Which leads to higher strength characteristics, they also have a higher thermal resistance and much higher water and vapor resistance (also to mold, mildew, etc..). Usually, a better UV resistance as well.

[PeteyGoesBoom]

So, then the "egg crate" sheet I bought will do the job just as well as the closed cell foam? I mean. if my shhet (egg crate) is "open" cell, than that would be the opposite of "closed" cell. That would lead me to beleive, being opposites, it shouldn't be good!

Just a thought though. I have seen the same stuff in npdang's car, so if it's good for him, it's great fpr me!

I was just making sure I am getting the best results possible. I bought the sheet I got because npdang recommended it, and shave seen it in his ride.

Thanks for your help!
Pete

[GMo]

So, then the "egg crate" sheet I bought will do the job just as well as the closed cell foam?
Yes :)
For acoustical properties, the egg shell is going to be somewhat better than a standard closed cell of the same thickness.
From post 23 onwards and you'll see that 10K2HVN used some protectant on his foam which is very similar to what myself and others have done to protect the foam from vapor, water, mold, etc..
But standard egg crate is an effective and cheap way of absorption of mid to treble frequencies.

[Derek]

i just liked not having to treat my closed cell.....:)

and as well as solidifying up my midbass response....it killed a lot of road noise as well....

[PeteyGoesBoom]

I have a full 4' X 8' egg crate sheet. I'll be putting it in all my doors, on the entire back panels of the doors. Why not, I have it!

Would it help to put it in the rear hatch? I knwo there are no speakers physically in the rear hatch as the front doors, but maybe it'll at least help with road noise, excessive rattle. etc. My rear hatch is very well dampened as well.

What do you guys recommend as far as a protectant/sealer for the foam against moisture, etc? Also, what do you use to glue it down? Any glue would be fine? It has to glued onto the Dynamt surface, so what is appropriate for this?

Thanks. Pete

[mojako]

what about this? deflex pads from madisound

http://www.madisound.com/images/product/DP.jpg

[|Tch0rT|]

I'd like to say that Peel N Seal works good. I just got 75 square ft. at a local Lowe's for a little over $66. It's very easy to apply and a few layers got rid of a lot of rattles. This is my first experiance with sound deadening, I'll never get it last now! heh

Ryan

[demon2091tb]

How would you all suggest redampening my doors, I have a piece of aluminum flashing over my access holes (screwed in with self taping screw) with deadener and ensolite on top of it.

I wanted to order another roll of Raammat and redeaden the interior of my doors as well as putting another layer on my outter door skin, and deaden my panels suffeciently as well. After getting into the door and adding the deadener/eggshell foam combo, how would you suggest deadening over the ensolite already on the door face? Make a sandwitch layer, or would that not work well enough? Or would you just suggest ripping the ensolite off, and reapplying it, (i do not want to waist my ensolite).

Also how would you suggest to getting the door to be as resonant and rattle free as possible, the plastic panels that is. My doors are resonating at 90hz as it seems.

[SteveH!]

hey rick, it's me steve. i was wondering if you could post pics of how you did channels in the door skins.. you gave a good explanationbut picd would help big time.

[MarkZ]

Is the clay really necessary? Could you just make a "gasket" out of rubber or foam or something?

Unless I'm unclear about the purpose of the clay, you could instead use that black gunk that they use to put windshields in. Most auto parts stores have it. I bought a pack that was beaded and came on a big roll of tape. It keeps, remains somewhat soft but sturdy. The downside is that it'll stain your fingers and upholstery, so be careful.

[fuscobal]

After reading this thread i have some questions for you guys :

1) Is that 'egg carton' a sponge ?
2) After 2 layers of dynamat on outer skin, 2 layers on the inner metal skin (one inside the door and one between the metal and the plastic face of the door ) and 1 mineral wool layer over dynamat, between the metal skin and plastic face, i've got absolutely no rattles but, it still doesn't sing like a home wood or MDF enclosure. Sometimes, on some tracks, i can hear the enclosure 'singing'. I think theese are resonances inside the enclosure. Would the egg carton solve this problem ?
3) I've also heard the egg carton isn't efficient on low frequencies ( under 500Hz or so ) and its absorption properties are not linear. A home acoustic engineer recommends the mineral wool as being much more efficient than the sponge. What do u have to say about this ?

[jtholley03]

"it, it still doesn't sing like a home wood or MDF enclosure"

:cool:

Wiat till you see the approach I am taking! I will post pics when I get some of it done.

[sigma6]

We don't have any of this 'non-hardening modelling clay' here, or that kind of arts & crafts store.* Is this stuff actually clay, as in dirt? Or is it something more like a plasticine?
Would something like a glazing mastic do instead? I'm guessing that the important thing the mass your adding around the driver and that's it's coupled to the door...

I'm making some new, beefier baffles to mount my new MW-64s so want to go the extra mile.





*Though I can buy Bennic caps at my local electronics store for $1.50 a pop...

[AzGrower]

We don't have any of this 'non-hardening modelling clay' here, or that kind of arts & crafts store.

you do have the postal service right...then try Ebay...
http://cgi.ebay.com/PERMOPLAST-MODELING-CLAY-NON-HARDENING-RED-GREEN-ART-NR_W0QQitemZ7608999333QQcategoryZ92150QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

[chuyler1]

I'd like to add a little to this thread. Most people end up trimming some of the plastic on the inside of the door panel to get their aftermarket speakers to fit properly. This opens up space between the door panel and the inner door skin (where you applied on or more layers of sound deadening). It also leaves the panel to vibrate a little more. When I install my speakers, I always add a layer of foam/eggcrate to account for the space between the door and the baffle. This helps dampen vibrations in the panel and it also blocks the sound from resonating in the space between the door and panel. Ok, Ok, I picture is worth 1000 words...

http://www.msprotege.com/members/chuyler1/StereoSystem/IMG_2144.jpg
http://www.msprotege.com/members/chuyler1/StereoSystem/IMG_2145.jpg
http://www.msprotege.com/members/chuyler1/StereoSystem/IMG_2146.jpg
http://www.msprotege.com/members/chuyler1/StereoSystem/IMG_2148.jpg

[sigma6]

you do have the postal service right...
Out here to asia? Sure we do, but it gets more complicated. ;)

My buddy is coming out next month with a 12" sub and plate amp for my HT project, a new amp and 2-way front stage for me. If I can find a product even 90% as useful at my local hardware store I'd rather do that. His knuckles are close to dragging on the ground as it is ;)

[NaamanF]

Great idea. I am going to be installing ID8s in my rear doors and that should help a bunch.

[bobduch]

I just read this again and I don't remember anyone bringing this up:
Use the deadener on the back of your plastic door panel. This might be the resonance some of you are hearing even though you put a ton of deadener on the doors themselves.
World's quietest place:
http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture2.html

http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture1.html

For more info on absorbtion:
http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture1.html
dig around a little and you'll see info on thickness and absorbtion of various frequencies.

[B&K]

I just read this again and I don't remember anyone bringing this up:
Use the deadener on the back of your plastic door panel. This might be the resonance some of you are hearing even though you put a ton of deadener on the doors themselves.
World's quietest place:
http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture2.html

http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture1.html

For more info on absorbtion:
http://www.bell-labs.com/org/1133/Research/Acoustics/AnechoicPicture1.html
dig around a little and you'll see info on thickness and absorbtion of various frequencies.
Indeed anechoic wedges are the bomb, but that isn't the worlds quietest place. Orfield labs anechoic room in Minneapolis is. -8dbA and that is during the day!! They had to use two $8000 mics and a $30k analyzer to actually measure that low...I helped them with the setup. For proof, see the Guineas Book of Records they are listed as the quiestest place on earth.

[bobduch]

I stand corrected. Bell Labs room used to be in the Guiness book as quietest. Have not seen the book in too many years! :blush:

[MattinTheCrown]

Sheet of egg carton foam behind the speaker.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door8.jpg

Deflex pad behind the speaker.
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/door7.jpg
That an Accord? How'd you mount the baffles to the doors? Did you drill holes in the door? If so, do you have to treat that?

[demon2091tb]

I used lag bolts w/ nuts that have nylon inserts so they wont back out, through my speaker rings and through the door metal with plenty of washers, seems to work fine, and holds the rings onto the door very very tightly.

[MattinTheCrown]

I used lag bolts w/ nuts that have nylon inserts so they wont back out, through my speaker rings and through the door metal with plenty of washers, seems to work fine, and holds the rings onto the door very very tightly.
So you just drilled the bolt holes in the door? Did you treat the bare metal at all?

[demon2091tb]

I treated the metal between the door/deadening/baffles with layers of caulking, with layers of ensolite on them all.

[MattinTheCrown]

I treated the metal between the door/deadening/baffles with layers of caulking, with layers of ensolite on them all.
No, I mean the exposed bare metal due to the drilling. Presumably, that would rust unless you put a little primer on there.

[BigBassBrent]

I just joined today because I wanted to say thanks to chuyler1 for posting the tip about wrapping your you baffle with foam.

I have been installing my system in the truck for a couple weeks now and I finally finished with the front doors. When I was done I had some bad resonances and wasnt happy with the sound. Even with almost a roll of RAMMat and lots of ensolite on both doors. So I took a 3" wide strip of ensolite, doubled it over and stapled it around the baffles I made. The speaker is now "sealed" to the plastic door panel grill, so to speak. The results were astonishing. I am now very happy with the sound of my components.

Thanks, this forum is great.


http://www.msprotege.com/members/chuyler1/StereoSystem/IMG_2148.jpg

[khail19]

I just joined today because I wanted to say thanks to chuyler1 for posting the tip about wrapping your you baffle with foam.

I have been installing my system in the truck for a couple weeks now and I finally finished with the front doors. When I was done I had some bad resonances and wasnt happy with the sound. Even with almost a roll of RAMMat and lots of ensolite on both doors. So I took a 3" wide strip of ensolite, doubled it over and stapled it around the baffles I made. The speaker is now "sealed" to the plastic door panel grill, so to speak. The results were astonishing. I am now very happy with the sound of my components.

Thanks, this forum is great.

Welcome to the board! And thanks for posting that, I've been wanting to do this myself. So many tweaks, so little time.

[demon2091tb]

No, I mean the exposed bare metal due to the drilling. Presumably, that would rust unless you put a little primer on there.

Laytex caulking for exterior door trimming/windown trimming, put it on the bolt/nut screw and then screw it in, or put in on the whole first before you start screwing/bolting it in. If done right it shouldn't be an issue.

[demon2091tb]

Oh yea and silicon.

[John Scaro]

I need some info on deadners. RAAMmat, Second Skin, E Dead, the list goes on. Well which is better and why? Is there any that I should stay away from?

Thanks!

[Whiterabbit]

jump on google and search out the sound deadener showdown. Won't tell you which is better but it'll tell you on a mass basis how much material you are getting for your dollar and how well it'll stay stuck to your car.

[John Scaro]

jump on google and search out the sound deadener showdown. Won't tell you which is better but it'll tell you on a mass basis how much material you are getting for your dollar and how well it'll stay stuck to your car.
Great read Whiterabbit, Thanks!

[Ultimateherts]

So should we use a heat gun when applying the sound dampener?

[bumpnzx3]

most of the time- no. assuming it's a descent temp outside- you should be fine w/o it. I let mine sit in the sun for a little bit to soften it up some if need be.

[Whiterabbit]

butyl wont. I find applications on a dirty door without heat at 11 pm using butyl products like SS or raam have no problems with adhesion loss.

But I had asphault failures after cleaning a door and using loads of heat to the asphault melting point just to get it to laminate to begin with.






Another trick I like to use to help bulk up my door and thin my use of expensive dampers is to use clay or products like Liquid nails (I like a 3M product that is advertized as an 'instant grip' construction adhesive).

I note that my doorpanels are far from a flat surface. I can spend time cutting my deadener into ever smaller pieces to lay within the crevices, layer up to flatness, then lay damper across the door to achieve flatness, or I can fill the cavity with the adhesive products or clay then lay one layer of damper over to seal it in.

I use clay in places I fear I might have to remove product later to recover from failed components, and the adhesive where I don't mind permanence.

Any place where the adhesive may remain exposed by mistake or leak out over time, or become exposed unknowingly by failue will harden and reseal the cavity.

Tubes of this stuff can be very reasonably priced, and cases cost less than rolls of damper.

great way to fill in small spaces, stiffen panneling, and level surfaces without spending extreeme money on liquid dampers. Stretching my budget for sheet damper and foam.

[Dan]

I noticed a few of you mentioned that you use a filler i.e. clay, adhesive to smooth your door panels to a flat(er) surface before applying the sound deadener. What is the point of making your panel completely flat? Is there even a percievable difference in sound quality by doing this?

[chuyler1]

It is just to add more mass and stiffness. The raammatt/dynamat loses its affect if it is not stuck directly to the metal. For cavaties in the panel that the mat will not go into you might as well fill it with something so the mat can lay across and adhere to something. The fact that it smooths out the face of the door panel has no effect on sound.

[Whiterabbit]

but it sure does make applying all that deadener so very much easier ;)

[Ultimateherts]

Well I started doing my doors a few days ago and I ended up just buying a $30 Milwalkee heat gun from Home Depot.

So far it has been a very wise investment because I live in Massachusetts where the temperature is not quite as warm this time of year as other areas.

It has made things a whole lot easier than going without so this might be a good investment.

[fredridge]

I am going to work on my doors tomorrow morning and have a couple questions.

1. Do I need to worry about Deflex pads if I am using ensolite? Should I just put extra behind the speakers?

2. I am thinking of using some type of screen and then covering it with bxt, any thoughts?

3. Just to be sure, I should do each door trim panel correct?


4. Any other suggestions?

[Rudeboy]

I am going to work on my doors tomorrow morning and have a couple questions.

1. Do I need to worry about Deflex pads if I am using ensolite? Should I just put extra behind the speakers?
An extra layer or two behind the speakers should get the job done.

2. I am thinking of using some type of screen and then covering it with bxt, any thoughts?
Perforated sheet metal works well. I just use aluminum flashing, self tapping screws and silicone caulk to seal up the holes.

3. Just to be sure, I should do each door trim panel correct?
You definitely won't hurt yourself doing it, but it really depends how resonant they are. At least as important is to use some Ensolite to gasket the trim panels to prevent them from rattling.

4. Any other suggestions?
Don't mat over mounting holes. Don't go so close to the edges of the doors that you can't get the trim panels back on.

[cronic]

hey guys. I am currently working on the doors of my 1973 Toyota FJ-40 and have a few questions. I am in the process of applying 2 layers of damplifier to the inside of the outer door skin and 2 layers to the inside of the inside door skin. I will also be closing up the 3 holes with aluminum and cover them with damplifier as well. I feel like I need something to line the inside of the doors to improve the acoustics of the door. Whatever material I use will have to be water resistant and not soak or hold water. Unless I am missing something that really narrows it down to a closed cell product such as Overkill or Ensolite. Which is better? Are the both just a neoprene product? Since the doors will be the enclosure for my scan speak 18w mid bass speakers I want to treat them as good as possible to get the best mid bass. What do you guys suggest for this application?

[Rudeboy]

hey guys. I am currently working on the doors of my 1973 Toyota FJ-40 and have a few questions. I am in the process of applying 2 layers of damplifier to the inside of the outer door skin and 2 layers to the inside of the inside door skin. I will also be closing up the 3 holes with aluminum and cover them with damplifier as well. I feel like I need something to line the inside of the doors to improve the acoustics of the door. Whatever material I use will have to be water resistant and not soak or hold water. Unless I am missing something that really narrows it down to a closed cell product such as Overkill or Ensolite. Which is better? Are the both just a neoprene product? Since the doors will be the enclosure for my scan speak 18w mid bass speakers I want to treat them as good as possible to get the best mid bass. What do you guys suggest for this application?

They are slightly different in texture, density, etc., but I don't think you will see much difference in performance.

[cronic]

Thanks for the heads up on the differences. What about this stuff for lining the inside of the doors. I like the fact that it has an adhesive backing. What do you guys think?
www.ebay.com
Item number: 290189378373

[Rudeboy]

Thanks for the heads up on the differences. What about this stuff for lining the inside of the doors. I like the fact that it has an adhesive backing. What do you guys think?
www.ebay.com
Item number: 290189378373
I'd avoid just because of the statement:

SIMILAR TO DYNAMAT PRODUCTS, OFFERING GREAT SOUND PROOFING PERFORMANCE AND INSULATION AT A FRACTION OF THE COST, SO YOU'LL NEVER HAVE TO SACRIFICE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE EVER AGAIN!

BS like that would keep me a long way away. Dynamic Control sells a similar product, but suggesting that this stuff is a replacement for Dynamat is absurd.

Elemental Designs sells something similar or the same - 1/4" closed cell with a PSA. I'm skeptical of using a PSA in this application. Contact cement is most often used for this. Hard to believe that a PSA on one surface only will work as well.

[hari-bhari]

i used the foam egg crate thing for a while and then decided to switch to deflex. big mistake. i feel like my mid output dropped by half. im switchin back to the foam. funny how the cheap stuff works better.

[jacka]

i noticed the same thing

[chongl]

They only problem I see for myself is that the egg crate foam is open cell. Is there a closed cell version (does Ensolite have the same effect)?

[Rudeboy]

They only problem I see for myself is that the egg crate foam is open cell. Is there a closed cell version (does Ensolite have the same effect)?

Egg crate foam is going to effect a little broader range of frequencies than 1/8" Ensolite or products like deflex pads. You can probably treat open celled foam with something like Scotch Guard to water proof it, but as critical as that is for in-door use, it will reduce the materials effectiveness.

It is easy to understand why delex pads do so little, but I really can't see how using egg shell foam could possible increase output from your mids unless the front and back waves aren't sealed off from each other. I think I'd put more energy into creating an effective baffle.

[circa40]

Try ED's V4. Its 1/4" closed cell foam with adhesive backing. I lined the insides on my front doors and they haven't fallen off yet.

[hari-bhari]

Egg crate foam is going to effect a little broader range of frequencies than 1/8" Ensolite or products like deflex pads. You can probably treat open celled foam with something like Scotch Guard to water proof it, but as critical as that is for in-door use, it will reduce the materials effectiveness.

It is easy to understand why delex pads do so little, but I really can't see how using egg shell foam could possible increase output from your mids unless the front and back waves aren't sealed off from each other. I think I'd put more energy into creating an effective baffle.


i see what you are saying, but i did everything listed on the first page, including 3 layers of deadener, mdf ring, clay, and plexiglass for the large holes. i had the foam in for about 8 months and just switched to deflex and i noticed a significant drop. my doors used to THUMP with the bass, and now not nearly as much. but just as a sidenote, if you have sealed off the speakers front and back properly, there shouldnt be any difference between foam/deflex and using nothing at all. but there obviously is some difference, so perhaps something is not accounted for. at any rate, going back to my cheap mattress pad foam next week! if anyone wants two 7" deflex pads let me know!

[Bollwerk]

What about this?
http://www.foambymail.com/Wedge.html

[ZoNtO]

i used the foam egg crate thing for a while and then decided to switch to deflex. big mistake. i feel like my mid output dropped by half. im switchin back to the foam. funny how the cheap stuff works better.

Can you describe this in more detail? I have a couple 7" deflex pads I was planning on using...

[FoxPro5]

Open cell foam---

OCF (open cell foam) is known as a broadband absorber and works by giving the sound wave a labyrinth/matrix to try to "fight" through. Technically, the absorption in an OCF occurs due to gas flow resistance in the cells. The higher the resistance, the more the matrix converts the sound energy to heat. OCF does it's job better the further away from the sound source it gets because the particle velocity is higher.

How much sound will a OCF absorb? That depends on 5 major things:
1) Absorber thickness
2) Flow resistivity
3) Cavity depth
4) Starting Frequency
5) Angle of Incidence

So, obviously there is no quick and easy answer here. What you really have to do is objective lab tests to get an honest answer. However, if you are a super nerd and want to try to model absorbtion ability of an OCF, then you could use this: http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/Porous.html

OCF can be a good product for a door as far as absorbtion goes, but it's not cut out for the environment. So, like others have suggested, you'd have to treat the foam for water. I think Focal figured this out with their BlackHole5 product. It's a multi-composite product that probably wouldn't work as well with out the fifth element which they refer to as "thin diamond pattern embossing, densified with polyurethane film surface."

Focal claims that film surface "improves dramatically the performance of the whole acoustical system, especially the lower mid-bass frequencies, (very sensitive range where simple acoustical foam becomes mostly ineffective). And they aren't BS'ing either, because if you look at the NRC values for an untreated foam vs a treated foam, clearly there's a nice difference on the low end:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/barnz008/OCFNRCgraph.jpg
Reference: http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/4foldWP.pdf

One reason why OCF might be a poor absorber in your car door is because it's too close to the back of the driver. The particle velocity is less, thus absorption will be less. IME, OCF very close to the driver "chokes" it off and makes it sound horribly muffled. My thought is that the foam is "stealing" the air from the cone and affecting it's mechanical compliance. I have no data on that, it's just my theory. :)

Closed cell foam ---

You will not find a lot of absorption data on CCF (closed cell foam) because it's a lousy absorber, plain and simple. CCF's do absorb some sound, but they diffuse more. It is the wrong tool for the job, essentially. Remember, an absorber must convert the sound energy to low level heat. IF CCF diffuses most of the sound away, then how effective could it be??

Here's some actual ASTM figures for room reverb and decay given as NRC (noise reduction coefficient) for a 1" thick CCF. Notice how poor it is on the low end compared to fiberglass, but how much more sound fiberglass (an open matrix) is in the upper frequency band.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/barnz008/NRCforCCF.jpg
Reference: http://www.enviro-tec.com/pdf/catalog/WP-ClosedCellFoam.pdf

In reality, the best CCF will do is diffract sound or act as a blocker. However, it's also bad at that as it's usually so lightweight. Mass law dictates block-ability. Unless you have a very dense form of CCF that has some mass to it, it's probably not the right tool for the job as a blocker

What CCF is really good at is in thermal applications (notice the source of the link above?) as it's a good heat reflector. In industrial and commercial apps, they use CCF for thermal wraps (hot or cold). And you can also use CCF for its thermal characteristics in your car.

[FoxPro5]

And if that info wasn't enough and you'd like to compound your headache even more, consider the following.

OCF - good absorber, poor diffusor
CCF - poor absorber, good diffusor
Deflex [CAE] like pads - poor absorber, good diffusor

As a general rule, it's safe to say diffusors absorb more than absorbers diffuse. Thus, CCF can offer some benefits in our vehicles where OCF can't. Here's why....

OCF absorbs sound the best and diffuses very little. If you want more absorption lower on the frequency range out of OCF, increase thickness. If you want more diffusion out of OCF, treat the surface.

CCF absorbs very little and diffuses a lot more than OCF. However, if you look at the testing of CCF's it may appear that they absorbing. In fact, they are diffusing or scattering. A scattered wave is not an absorbed wave. If you want more diffusion out of CCF, increase weight.

Deflex pads are made from a low derometer polyurethane rubber [think: your wife/GF's favorite play toy ;)]. The angles on the surface are designed to diffuse and scatter sound, not absorb it. Polyurethane rubber is a poor absorber. If you want more diffusion out of a Deflex pad, increase angle of incidence (see above.)

At the end of the day, you need the right tool for the job. :)

[gsr22]

so all in all is it best to use a deflex pad or eggcrate foam or_____ behind the speaker

[FoxPro5]

Since it seems the points I was trying to make were overlooked, I guess I'll try an appeal to authority:

What about the cheap stuff?

Egg crate foam is the worst there is. It's almost like using nothing.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/whispermat.html

I'd say 90% of the members here can benefit much more by building a proper baffle (which is not easy) than trying to absorb or diffuse the backwave. Just my $.02. :cool:

[Rudeboy]

Since it seems the points I was trying to make were overlooked, I guess I'll try an appeal to authority:



http://www.zaphaudio.com/whispermat.html

I'd say 90% of the members here can benefit much more by building a proper baffle (which is not easy) than trying to absorb or diffuse the backwave. Just my $.02. :cool:

That point can not be overstated. Wasting your time unless you start with a decent baffle.

[Bollwerk]

Pardon my n00b question, but does the word baffle only describe something like this - http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=speaker+baffle&i=237XT65 or does it also refer to the MDF "spacer" rings that many people use? (such as the pics in the original post)

Seems confusing to use the same term for both things. Maybe I'm just easily confused. =)

[Rudeboy]

Pardon my n00b question, but does the word baffle only describe something like this - http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=speaker+baffle&i=237XT65 or does it also refer to the MDF "spacer" rings that many people use? (such as the pics in the original post)

Seems confusing to use the same term for both things. Maybe I'm just easily confused. =)

Those foam things don't really count - at least they don't work terribly well. Think of a baffle as separating the energy coming from the front and back of the speaker. Those MDF and other rings are part of a baffle that includes them, the sheet metal to which they are mounted and any sound deadening, etc., that you add. The foam things try to be a baffle in themselves but are to flimsy to do much except protect the speakers from moisture.

[WrenchGuy]

Honestly, this thread is one of the finest car audio pieces I've ever read in terms of concrete and effective ways to improve the sound quality in ANY car. However, one question:



I'd never thought of doing that, but it would certainly be a much cheaper (and IMO no less effective) treatment than Black Hole 5 or Deflex. What kind of treatment would prevent mold without stiffening the foam unduly?

Use tent and tarp spray.

[Ge0]

Here is a new cheap and effective door treatment:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=397995&postcount=62

Yep, I'm a fuggin nut case...

Ge0

[rockondon]

Here is a new cheap and effective door treatment:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=397995&postcount=62

Yep, I'm a fuggin nut case...

Seems common around here. :p


Ge0



BTW I like the foam ring around the speaker. I'm guessing it butts up to the door. ?

[Ge0]

BTW I like the foam ring around the speaker. I'm guessing it butts up to the door. ?

Yep, seals off the gap between driver and door skin. This helps separate the front wave from the back wave.

Ge0

[rockondon]

Yep, seals off the gap between driver and door skin. This helps separate the front wave from the back wave.

Ge0

Like you i went nuggin futz on mine.
1.5 layers on the outer. Then Ensolite.
1 layer on the inner skin.
Used some 1/4 plastic cut to fit the holes.
1 more layer. Then Ensolite.

Plastic panel has silacone pushed into cracks where pieces are joined.
Add a little deadner on top.
Added a med/density foam rubber spacer between panel and door.

Voila! One tight box. Without rattles.
------------------------------------------------
Not cheap or easy. Just depends on the expected results.;)

[tommyd]

Yes, ensolite stopped all door panel rattles that I had. Unfortunately I didn't have enough to go around and now the overhead console rattle :( Maybe if I fill all the compartments with clay and BB's....hmmmmmmm

[chuyler1]

BTW I like the foam ring around the speaker. I'm guessing it butts up to the door. ?
Check out post #77 (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=29538#post29538) of this thread.

[Ge0]

Open cell foam---

OCF (open cell foam) is known as a broadband absorber and works by giving the sound wave a labyrinth/matrix to try to "fight" through. Technically, the absorption in an OCF occurs due to gas flow resistance in the cells. The higher the resistance, the more the matrix converts the sound energy to heat. OCF does it's job better the further away from the sound source it gets because the particle velocity is higher.

How much sound will a OCF absorb? That depends on 5 major things:
1) Absorber thickness
2) Flow resistivity
3) Cavity depth
4) Starting Frequency
5) Angle of Incidence

So, obviously there is no quick and easy answer here. What you really have to do is objective lab tests to get an honest answer. However, if you are a super nerd and want to try to model absorbtion ability of an OCF, then you could use this: http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/Porous.html

OCF can be a good product for a door as far as absorbtion goes, but it's not cut out for the environment. So, like others have suggested, you'd have to treat the foam for water. I think Focal figured this out with their BlackHole5 product. It's a multi-composite product that probably wouldn't work as well with out the fifth element which they refer to as "thin diamond pattern embossing, densified with polyurethane film surface."

Focal claims that film surface "improves dramatically the performance of the whole acoustical system, especially the lower mid-bass frequencies, (very sensitive range where simple acoustical foam becomes mostly ineffective). And they aren't BS'ing either, because if you look at the NRC values for an untreated foam vs a treated foam, clearly there's a nice difference on the low end:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/barnz008/OCFNRCgraph.jpg
Reference: http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/4foldWP.pdf

One reason why OCF might be a poor absorber in your car door is because it's too close to the back of the driver. The particle velocity is less, thus absorption will be less. IME, OCF very close to the driver "chokes" it off and makes it sound horribly muffled. My thought is that the foam is "stealing" the air from the cone and affecting it's mechanical compliance. I have no data on that, it's just my theory. :)

Closed cell foam ---

You will not find a lot of absorption data on CCF (closed cell foam) because it's a lousy absorber, plain and simple. CCF's do absorb some sound, but they diffuse more. It is the wrong tool for the job, essentially. Remember, an absorber must convert the sound energy to low level heat. IF CCF diffuses most of the sound away, then how effective could it be??

Here's some actual ASTM figures for room reverb and decay given as NRC (noise reduction coefficient) for a 1" thick CCF. Notice how poor it is on the low end compared to fiberglass, but how much more sound fiberglass (an open matrix) is in the upper frequency band.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/barnz008/NRCforCCF.jpg
Reference: http://www.enviro-tec.com/pdf/catalog/WP-ClosedCellFoam.pdf

In reality, the best CCF will do is diffract sound or act as a blocker. However, it's also bad at that as it's usually so lightweight. Mass law dictates block-ability. Unless you have a very dense form of CCF that has some mass to it, it's probably not the right tool for the job as a blocker

What CCF is really good at is in thermal applications (notice the source of the link above?) as it's a good heat reflector. In industrial and commercial apps, they use CCF for thermal wraps (hot or cold). And you can also use CCF for its thermal characteristics in your car.

Nice one Big Gay Al!

Ge0

[elvisjer]

Is there somewhere you can get prefab rings? Im bad with wood and without wood working tools except a dremel which is not sufficient to cut rings out. Im in the Seattle area.

[60ndown]

Is there somewhere you can get prefab rings? Im bad with wood and without wood working tools except a dremel which is not sufficient to cut rings out. Im in the Seattle area.

e bay

[Ge0]

Is there somewhere you can get prefab rings? Im bad with wood and without wood working tools except a dremel which is not sufficient to cut rings out. Im in the Seattle area.

Throw out a request in the general section. A number of members advertise that they can do this and will help you out.

Ge0

[captainobvious]

Excellent guide npdang. Thanks

[jdoug]

Excellent thread-- just found it. Glad I didn't start a new one to ask the same thing. :D

One question though, and hope I didn't miss it in the last 14 pages-- how much does all this sound deadening typically weigh? I'm all for sound quality, but I'd also like to keep weight down as much as possible (which in a heavy-ass Mustang will probably be amusing to most). :)

[rockondon]

Excellent thread-- just found it. Glad I didn't start a new one to ask the same thing. :D

One question though, and hope I didn't miss it in the last 14 pages-- how much does all this sound deadening typically weigh? I'm all for sound quality, but I'd also like to keep weight down as much as possible (which in a heavy-ass Mustang will probably be amusing to most). :)


About what 1 really hot woman weighs. [or less] :D

[iskone]

I don't know if this would fall under the "cheap" compared to ensolite but if you can find it somewhere on sale it'd be a good deal.

I found some foil (possibly mylar) backed self adhesive closed cell foam at Home Depot. It comes in a 12x15' roll for $18. I found it in the ducting section, it's used for duct insulation. Sticks pretty well too, even to pyrex.

Not sure I'd use it since I don't think 1/8" thick foam of any type will do a whole lot but thought I mention it.

Found a link http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100028603&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=100028603&ci_src=14110944&cm_mmc=1hd.com2froogle-_-product_feed-_-D26X-_-100028603

[hans030390]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there any place to get the egg crate foam in local stores (Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc), or something comparable? How does closed-cell foam compare? What do you use to treat the egg crate (I get a lot of water in my doors) and stick it on the door?

I know some of those have been asked, but I'm at work and don't always have time to browse through the threads.

[LauZaIM]

I'm somewhat new to car audio and extreme SQ but, aren't comps built for free air? And, wouldn't it be bad to put such a small speaker in such a huge "box" I deadened my doors but didn't bother with covering the holes and I've got excellent midbass...

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I'm somewhat new to car audio and extreme SQ but, aren't comps built for free air? And, wouldn't it be bad to put such a small speaker in such a huge "box" I deadened my doors but didn't bother with covering the holes and I've got excellent midbass...

If you would plug the holes you will hear more from the front of the speaker.;)
You would also notice a pretty dramatic improvement.;) I did.:blush:

[yermolovd]

I'm somewhat new to car audio and extreme SQ but, aren't comps built for free air? And, wouldn't it be bad to put such a small speaker in such a huge "box" I deadened my doors but didn't bother with covering the holes and I've got excellent midbass...

they aren't built for free air, more like infinite baffle. what it means more is separating backwave from front wave. putting such a small speaker into a huge box will depend on the parameters...

[daGwagon]

Sorry if this has been brought up already but i only got a chance to read about half the thread, but from my experience using the expanding foam in trunk lids, quater panels ,etc. it can cause warping of the panels so I've been using the white fluffy stuff that is in "stuffed animals" packed tightly into the same places you would use the expanding foam and i have achieved great results. There is a technical name for it but its not coming to me, but it can be found in the crafts department at Wal-mart or Michaels etc. and a 1 pound bag will do a trunk lid for about $3.oo...

Great forum BTW i have learned a lot.
Gant

[brendan 67]

:):)Sorry if this has been brought up already but i only got a chance to read about half the thread, but from my experience using the expanding foam in trunk lids, quater panels ,etc. it can cause warping of the panels so I've been using the white fluffy stuff that is in "stuffed animals" packed tightly into the same places you would use the expanding foam and i have achieved great results. There is a technical name for it but its not coming to me, but it can be found in the crafts department at Wal-mart or Michaels etc. and a 1 pound bag will do a trunk lid for about $3.oo...

Great forum BTW i have learned a lot.
Gant

Does it hold moisture?

[Rudeboy]

Expanding foam has the advantage of joining the areas it is injected between, increasing rigidity. It requires care, but should not cause damage when used according to directions.

[skeleto]

Sorry if this has been brought up already but i only got a chance to read about half the thread, but from my experience using the expanding foam in trunk lids, quater panels ,etc. it can cause warping of the panels so I've been using the white fluffy stuff that is in "stuffed animals" packed tightly into the same places you would use the expanding foam and i have achieved great results. There is a technical name for it but its not coming to me, but it can be found in the crafts department at Wal-mart or Michaels etc. and a 1 pound bag will do a trunk lid for about $3.oo...

Great forum BTW i have learned a lot.
Gant

its called polyfill. its used inside of sealed boxes. i slows down sound waves but dont cancel them out, i dont know if it has any effect in open spaces. id be weary of the mold

[daGwagon]

I would assume that it would hold moisture and probably mold but if its somewhere that wont get any moisture then you obviously wouldnt have anything to worry about, not to sound like a smart ass ;)... but trunk lids and quarters and even stuffed in your dash shouldnt pose any problems. IMO i like it a whole lot better than expanding foam b/c of the wole "EXPANDING" part of it...

rudeboy
who reads instructions anway? lol j/k

[sobe_death]

That and the foam is more hassle if you ever need to take something apart for repairs and such.

[skeleto]

i might have missed it in an earlier post but what exactly does polyfill do in open spaces? ie, dash & quarter panels etc.

[daGwagon]

i might have missed it in an earlier post but what exactly does polyfill do in open spaces? ie, dash & quarter panels etc.

well im not sure about the technical side of it in open spaces but ive used it to cut down vibrations and to "firm things up"... its somewhat difficult to "stuff" dynamat in to a dash and say door/trunk braces... but like mentioned before in speaker boxes it makes the speaker think it is in a bigger enclosure, and i could be completely wrong but i think it would help cut "standing waves" in certain areas of the car.. someone correct me if im wrong ;)

[Jopop]

Okay i read this whole thread and I am very interested in decoupling the speaker from the door to help with vibrations and clean up the sound, (is this similar to using spikes on floor speakers?)

I hope I'm not polluting the thread right now - but, my speakers are mounted on the outside of the door, in a huge slab of MDF formed to look decent against the door panel - here's a pic:

http://www.webhotell-spesialisten.no/transmediano/sqlbutikk/images/product/pmg034.gif

Now the problem is that the speakers are recessed into the baffle, and the MDF there isn't particularly thick - I'd say maybe 1/4" thick. This is pretty crappy stuff for fixing speakers to.

Does anyone think it would be a good solution to glue a 3/4" ring of marine grade plywood behind the speaker recess part to give screws something to bite in, and then cut another ring of plywood and place it in the recessed part, with material to decouple the ring from the door, then screw the two rings together sandwiching the recessed MDF part between the two rings?

The outer ring would be rather thin, so the speaker would be surface mounted rather than flush mounted but not sticking out half an inch. Of course the speaker would also be decoupled from the outer ring.. probably with some sort of thickish rubber gasket rather than clay or what i intend to use for the ring (butyl).

Is this plan flawed in any way? Or would it have close to no benefits over the current mounting scheme.

Perhaps another solution would be decoupling the back ring from the recessed part and decoupling the speaker from the recessed part, essentially eliminating the front ring from the scheme above, yielding a cleaner look while still effectively decoupling the speaker from the door and giving it a thicker slab of wood to mount in. I would just drill holes in the recessed part and fill them with butyl in order to decouple it as much as possible, screwing the speaker only to the rear plywood ring, and the screws would just pass right thru the door panel.

[a$$hole]

well-nuts, do a search here or on web.

[undercover cavalier]

Noob question, but in the pictures in the original post, it looks like the speakers stick out quite a bit farther then they normally would. Do the stock door panels usually still fit over the speaker if you do something like this or do you have to make something custom that will fit?

Also, if I did this in my car and decided to get new speakers, how hard is it to get all the clay out?

[Headknocker]

What do you spray on the eggcrate acoustic foam to reduce the chances of mold growth?

Would spraying some 3M water repellent do the trick since it would reduce or eliminate water soaking into it for the most part?

[jacka]

Noob question, but in the pictures in the original post, it looks like the speakers stick out quite a bit farther then they normally would. Do the stock door panels usually still fit over the speaker if you do something like this or do you have to make something custom that will fit?

Also, if I did this in my car and decided to get new speakers, how hard is it to get all the clay out?

clay isnt too hard to remove, might be a little stiff at first but it should be able to remove most of it

[WrenchGuy]

I was toying with non hardening roofing caulk the other day. Its just like puddy when it cures. Could be a clay replacement and less weight.

[mojako]

saw this on zaph's website (but pertains to sealed boxes though)

Egg crate foam is the worst there is. It's almost like using nothing. One potentially good cheaper material is 1/2" thick carpet padding.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/whispermat.html

Does this hold true to doors?

[elvisjer]

Hey guys, i just posted about some sound deadening cotton matts i'm looking to maybe market...what do you think?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=530376#post530376

[bumpnzx3]

I was toying with non hardening roofing caulk the other day. Its just like puddy when it cures. Could be a clay replacement and less weight.

Most of the idea of the clay is it's weight- you want to add mass around the speaker.

[emrliquidlife]

Most of the idea of the clay is it's weight- you want to add mass around the speaker.

Whoa, just read through all this. Got my notes. I guess I'm going to give RaamMat the call. So, last thing, people don't like the eggcrate? In my mind it seemed better able to absorb the sound wave. But after midnight, I'm not paying much attention anyway.

E

[bumpnzx3]

If you use the eggcrate- spray it with some sort of water repellant (*sp?). Because of a fear of possible mold, I bought a set of deflex pads from partsexpress.com. Some people think they work better than eggcrate/foam, others think the foam is the better way to go. To me- foam seems as though it would work the best. However, my ears probably wouldn't be able to tell a difference between the two- so I just chose the deflex pads and not worry about the possible mold.

[Jopop]

You can use scotchguard (sp?). I used silicone spray.. pretty much the same stuff. I don't know if it has made a difference at all though.. but it seems to me i can turn up two notches higher without too much distortion. Probably a psychological effect though :D But i do seem to recall it sounded like crap earlier on the volume dial. I can turn it all the way up now and it's good on most tracks.

[Mac]

Should I be applying molding clay on the inside of speaker kick panels. They really don't have much mass to them. They are cheap ABS plastic. I added some dynamat to the kick panels which made them sound a fair bit better. Eventually i will make some fiberglass panels but for now they do the job, just not to well.

[Jopop]

Should I be applying molding clay on the inside of speaker kick panels. They really don't have much mass to them. They are cheap ABS plastic. I added some dynamat to the kick panels which made them sound a fair bit better. Eventually i will make some fiberglass panels but for now they do the job, just not to well.

You could always reinforce your existing ones with polyester.. just put a coat or two on the inside. I think your dynamat solution would work better than clay.

[WrenchGuy]

Should I be applying molding clay on the inside of speaker kick panels. They really don't have much mass to them. They are cheap ABS plastic. I added some dynamat to the kick panels which made them sound a fair bit better. Eventually i will make some fiberglass panels but for now they do the job, just not to well.

Liquid Nails.

Spread it on the back of the panel like peanut butter. It hardens up and sturdies it up well.

[JoshHefnerX]

I just thought I would add my 2 cents on this. For those of you who live in the south (like me), I wouldn't use that non-hardening clay in the car. I was worried about it melting so I put some in the oven. The oven was set to 200deg. By 155 it was starting to melt (the surface was shiny) and at 170 it was a full on puddle of liquid. Once it cooled back down to room temp it was solid again. People in the northern states may not have this problem though.

Josh

[Rudeboy]

I just thought I would add my 2 cents on this. For those of you who live in the south (like me), I wouldn't use that non-hardening clay in the car. I was worried about it melting so I put some in the oven. The oven was set to 200deg. By 155 it was starting to melt (the surface was shiny) and at 170 it was a full on puddle of liquid. Once it cooled back down to room temp it was solid again. People in the northern states may not have this problem though.

Josh

Great information. 170°F is very easy to reach in a door in sunlight.

[WolfSong]

I haven't done the oven test, but I picked up some non-hardening modeling clay at AC Moore last week. When I was in the store it didn't seem very pliable at all, and looked like it was going to be a lot of work to get it soft enough to install.
I left it in the package, sealed and left it in my center console for the day while I was at work. It was actually a very cool day in comparison, 75ish instead of 95ish that we see in the summer. The clay wasn't melted but it was definitely very pliable, to the point that I'd wonder how well it will stay in position, especially with an extra 20 degrees of average heat.

[theRESONANCE]

:\ I just used some pure Silicone caulk from home depot. And got some plumbers gap sealer to line every corner of the door that has crevices which air causes whistling noises.

Can anyone recommend ways to rid road noise / Engine noise ?

I hit some of the inner tire humps with Damp pro. I'm going to try to buy some wheel well bondo spray liner next and coat all my tire wells down real well. has anyone done this ?

[ZoNtO]

Nope I can say I've never coated my tires with anything...

[rockondon]

:\ I just used some pure Silicone caulk from home depot. And got some plumbers gap sealer to line every corner of the door that has crevices which air causes whistling noises.

Can anyone recommend ways to rid road noise / Engine noise ?

I hit some of the inner tire humps with Damp pro. I'm going to try to buy some wheel well bondo spray liner next and coat all my tire wells down real well. has anyone done this ?

You cant rid engine noise. Unless you want to pull the engine. apply a full barrier to the firewall. Plug all the holes tighter. ect ect.

Use a barrier as high up the firwall you can get.[Inside]
And down to at least where the seats start.
Best is a full barrier.

[aztec1]

How can one be sure that the modeling clay is stiff enough to keep the driver from moving the baffle and canceling some of it own output? Or soft enough to actually do the job it was intended to do? It's already been determined that the stuff can change viscosity in heat, what about humidity?

[npdang]

I'm not sure what kind of "clay" everyone is using, but I've never had it melt, run, or shift on me. I've opened doors up years later and the clay looks just the same as the day that I put it on.

I don't use clay under or above the baffle any longer, (I like this hard rubber/foam sheeting I found), but I still use it around the baffle as it's heavy and does make a very measurable difference in terms of vibrations and rattles.

[theRESONANCE]

imo. Just be safe. use some caulk. i dont know what the difference is.

[capnxtreme]

I believe the difference is MASS, which I understood was the whole point of the clay.

I'm not crazy about the idea though--it ain't in my doors.

[theRESONANCE]

Hm that makes a lot of sense. but i still wouldn't sacrifice the safety. Isn't that the reason why we use butyl and not asphalt ? :D

Anyways, I got probably 20 or so Sq Ft of Damplifier Pro left.. But i'm not sure where to put it. So far i have my front two doors sealed to the max.. I'm not going to get a subwoofer, so my trunk doesn't need deadening. I drive a 4 door sedan. What else should i hit up, my rear passenger doors ? :\ I'm still pissed about the road noise/Engine >:O.. But Hell There's only so much you can do right !

[JoshHefnerX]

I'm not sure what kind of "clay" everyone is using, but I've never had it melt, run, or shift on me. I've opened doors up years later and the clay looks just the same as the day that I put it on.

I don't use clay under or above the baffle any longer, (I like this hard rubber/foam sheeting I found), but I still use it around the baffle as it's heavy and does make a very measurable difference in terms of vibrations and rattles.

Just an FYI, the modeling clay I tested w/ was from Van Aken. Here's a link to the packaging http://www.dickblick.com/zz332/68/ According to their website this has some wax base to it, and so does not suprise me that it melts....

Josh

[Ge0]

Just an FYI, the modeling clay I tested w/ was from Van Aken. Here's a link to the packaging http://www.dickblick.com/zz332/68/ According to their website this has some wax base to it, and so does not suprise me that it melts....

Josh

Yep, if Van Aken clay gets over 80F it turns to ooey gooey sticky sluge that stains everything it touches with its color dye.

Rumor has it this stuff is the great alternative. Temperature does not affect it:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=392811&postcount=15

Ge0

[backotruck]

Here is a good closed cell foam option
http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_9990000031988011P

I bet you can get them at Sears too, since they own Kmart them. $8

[backotruck]

Or actually, to follow up on my follow up...used closed cell foam excercise mats at any Play it Again Sports. Genius!

[splvictim19]

very nice man look's great:).

[FoxPro5]

Keep in mind that if you've done a sufficient damping job on the outer door skin (especially with a quality foil-backed VE damper) you're also thermo-insulating your doors at the same time. Aluminum is a great insulator. I can't believe a well-done door (or even one with a single layer) can reach temps of 150*F or more. Completely naked, I can see that. I have not done any measurements myself, but keep this in mind if you're worried your mass loading clay is going to melt.

Lately, I've been using Kleen Klay with good results. It's a bit more waxy/oily (has castor oil and Vaseline in it) than the other stuff I've used. It's also touch heavier and denser, too. Yay!

I contacted the manufacturer and they said it will start to break down at 105*F and get pretty soft at 120*. The petroleum in the clay will melt at 145*. Keep this in mind.

I've used the Yaley NHMC that Ge0 linked above for awhile and it has been rock solid though hot and cold.

[psykosis]

great info.

I'll be doing a full install in a couple weeks, and this will come in very handy.