How to make your RTA with $100 dlls.

[doitor]

Hi guys
Just got my RTA going.
$100 for all the pieces new.
Want to know how?
Paypal me $100 and I'll let you know.:o
j/k

Behringer ECM8000 $49.95 at Amazon.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc163/doitor/DSC06585-1.jpg

MXL Usb Mic Mate payed $49 at my local Guitar Center. Cheapest I've seen online $79.99
This thing has phantom power and you plug it directly to the mic and then to a USB port on your computer. It detects it automaticly.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc163/doitor/DSC06586.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc163/doitor/DSC06587.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc163/doitor/DSC06588.jpg

TrueRTA free. (http://www.trueaudio.com/) the 1 octave is free and there are several versions 1/3 octave ($39.95), 1/6 octave ($69.95) and 1/24 octave ($99.95).

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc163/doitor/DSC06589-1.jpg

I know there are several programs to do it.
That's not my car's graph by the way, just measuring my office noise.
I think I need to eq my office. :o
Well that's it, $100 dollar totally portable, RTA and SPL meter.

Jorge.

[sonicnirvana]

Kewl Beans...but what about the $500 computer :rolleyes:

[BlackSapphire]

Great post! I'm going to build one as well. Any downsides to this setup or is it fairly accurate? I am used to people using larger mic pre-amps and such.

Anyone care to comment? I'm psyched Doitor - thanks again.

[BlackSapphire]

Two questions:

1. I see the Hi/Med/Low switch - what position should it be in normally?
2. On the TrueRTA software. Which version is 'necessary'? I don't mind buying one of the other levels if it's absolutely worthy of the price.

I'm new to the RTA world so thank you in advance for the advice.

[bobditts]

Nice tutorial! One question though..... What added bonus does the other method in the link bleow offer over this method if any?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17

[robbyho]

also, a really good program that is totally free is call room eq wizard and it will do frequency response graph with ease (though not an rta, it is essentially the same).
google it and you shall find...I believe you need to register for the forum to DL it.

also winmls lets you do a trial for 30 days and the program is extremely simple to get going.

for any program you'll need a measuring mic and a preamp. As well as a xlr cable, an xlr to 1/8" jack, and an 1/8" jack to your sound system. plus an 1/8" to 1/8" to measure your sound card's FR.

Robby

[BlackSapphire]

also, a really good program that is totally free is call room eq wizard and it will do frequency response graph with ease (though not an rta, it is essentially the same).
google it and you shall find...I believe you need to register for the forum to DL it.

also winmls lets you do a trial for 30 days and the program is extremely simple to get going.

for any program you'll need a measuring mic and a preamp. As well as a xlr cable, an xlr to 1/8" jack, and an 1/8" jack to your sound system. plus an 1/8" to 1/8" to measure your sound card's FR.

Robby

Good advice Robby - thanks.

By using the preamp doitor is using (Mic Mate), it seems you can avoid many of those cables. True?

[supersaag]

Is there a "special" mic needed? And if were using a USB connection for the mic, as Doitor did, we dont need to measure the FR of the computer do we?

[doitor]

Kewl Beans...but what about the $500 computer :rolleyes:

Let me change the title to:How to make your RTA with $100 dlls If you have a laptop.;)

Jorge.

[doitor]

Two questions:

1. I see the Hi/Med/Low switch - what position should it be in normally?
2. On the TrueRTA software. Which version is 'necessary'? I don't mind buying one of the other levels if it's absolutely worthy of the price.

I'm new to the RTA world so thank you in advance for the advice.

1.- Don't know, I have it in low and works ok.
2.- I think depending on the eq you have. My H701 has 1/3 octave eq, so that should be more than enough.

I'm also new to RTA's and wanted one for some time, but for this price it was hard to pass.

Jorge.

[doitor]

Nice tutorial! One question though..... What added bonus does the other method in the link bleow offer over this method if any?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17

The method on the link shows how to tune with a pc measurement setup.
Mine is not a method, just a way to get a cheap, totally portable, pc measurement setup.

Jorge.

[doitor]

Good advice Robby - thanks.

By using the preamp doitor is using (Mic Mate), it seems you can avoid many of those cables. True?

Yes.
The MicMate plugs directly to the mic and then just an USB cable to the computer.
So just one cable, no adapters, no extra power needed.

Jorge.

[doitor]

Is there a "special" mic needed? And if were using a USB connection for the mic, as Doitor did, we dont need to measure the FR of the computer do we?

As far as I know you can use just about any mic.
The behringer ecm8000 is one of the most widely used.
And don't know about the second question.

Jorge.

[BlackSapphire]

1.- Don't know, I have it in low and works ok.
2.- I think depending on the eq you have. My H701 has 1/3 octave eq, so that should be more than enough.

I'm also new to RTA's and wanted one for some time, but for this price it was hard to pass.

Jorge.

Good deal Jorge, I copied your setup for now. I just ordered the Behringer and the Mic mate.

[doitor]

First measurements.
After "tuning" by ear for some time for daily driving, this is what the first RTA showed.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc163/doitor/Both.jpg

I will start playing with it and experimenting to see/hear what I can do.

Jorge.

[npdang]

Don't forget 2 very important settings, weighting and averaging!

[chad]

One can pick up a M-Audio USB-Pre fro around 40-50 bucks used that gives you 2 channels of balanced IO, 2 mic pre's, and phantom power. BUT you have to shop around and possibly wait.

[BlackSapphire]

Don't forget 2 very important settings, weighting and averaging!

Please expand on that thought (or point me to some really long thread). ;)

[supersaag]

So Doitor, when you ran TrueRTA to show you that graph. Did you use "Quick sweep"?

[npdang]

Please expand on that thought (or point me to some really long thread). ;)
Averaging is important because it gives you greater noise immunity. Random noise in one measurement will be averaged out over the long run but may cause a loss of fine detail.

Weighting is important because it compensates for the lack of bass, and overly represented treble due to the long measurement window. Look up A, B, and C weighting on google and you will see what each weighting curve does.

[BigRed]

np, what weighting do you lean towards? B?

[Ge0]

np, what weighting do you lean towards? B?

I can't speak for Nguyen, but I tune to a modified B weighted curve. I follow the B scale in the bass region but not so in the treble region. I prefer to taper my treble off a tad so it is not overpowering vs boost it as B weighting would suggest.

I dumped the Behringer mic in favor of a binaural summed and averaged solution. I use this in combination with long measurement averages to come up with a pretty damn realistic tonal balance and stage presentation. I've been told by people with fairly high credentials that my system sounds VERY pleasing. If I could only find the time to clean up my install one day I might actually compete.

Ge0

[tijuana_no]

JORGE , which sound card did you use , i heard that the one from the comp. is not very reliable for this type of programs . i also have this program .

[BMWturbo]

I hope i haven't missed this in the thread somewhere, but say you had available a pair of ECM8000's and a 2 channel mixer/pre-amp, would it be lucrative to set-up a mic in the location of each ear and run the tests in 'stereo' rather then using a single mic in teh centre of the head style arrangment?

[doitor]

So Doitor, when you ran TrueRTA to show you that graph. Did you use "Quick sweep"?

No.
I admit that I'm an RTA newbie and need to read a lot to get the most out of this.

Jorge.

[doitor]

Payed with the RTA this Sunday.
Put the mic where my head would be, sat in the back seat with the laptop and the C701 controller, got only the right speakers playing and started measuring. I then tryed to get it as flat as possible with the C701. After I got it the best I could, did the same thing on the left channel and then with both channels together.
Let me tell you I'm impressed with the results.
Tonality wise it's a totally different system.
Before this I've been listening to the Focal 1 cd for one week non stop.
After the "tune" I could hear a lot of thinks that I've never heard before.
I'm going to read and learn as much as I can on how to properly tune with one of this, but the differencie is HUGE.
And I didn't even knew what I was doing.:o

Jorge

[michaelsil1]

After the "tune" I could hear a lot of thinks that I've never heard before.
I'm going to read and learn as much as I can on how to properly tune with one of these, but the difference is HUGE.
And I didn't even know what I was doing.:o

Jorge

I would love to find some kind of class in Los Angeles.

I've also had really good results from using PC Based Measurement Software and I don't have a clue as to what all the settings are for. :confused:

[BigRed]

Doitor, take note on the graph you shared, you have a 20db swing on frequency response. My point is that flat could be more accurate if you change the db setting so it gets down to 5db differences between large graph points. also try averaging as Npdang suggested :)

Just trying to help my teammate out :)

Good luck amigo!

[BigRed]

also, I thought you werent a controller / laptop kinda guy?? The 701 was supposed to be all you need?? You are learning jedi knight!! j/k lol.

[doitor]

Thanks for the info, Red.
I know there's a LOT to learn.
Just starting with this and really like the results.

Jorge.

[solacedagony]

I dumped the Behringer mic in favor of a binaural summed and averaged solution. I use this in combination with long measurement averages to come up with a pretty damn realistic tonal balance and stage presentation.
Do you have your mic placement/aiming in any threads already? If not, would you care describing?

[BlackSapphire]

I received the final piece of my setup today. Everything worked fine out of the box. Setup was easy.

One question/comment however. Correct me if I'm wrong but all of the steps regarding 'calibrating your sound card' really do not apply if you are not using the analog in/out on your card. If you are using MicMate or similar (USB-based), the sound card doesn't even come into play IMO.

[txbonds]

Thanks for this thread. Following suit, I just picked up the mxl mic mate and behringer ecm8000 mic from ebay. Not counting shipping, the price is the same as your title, but with shipping it put me $10 over. :)

Anyway, please keep the posting going as I'll have to learn to use this as well, but for self tuning or just seeing what is going on, this seemed like an awesome way to go for the DIY person.

Any updates?

Also, are you guys using any type of mic stand or bracket to hold the mic?

And, are you using any sort of test tones or tracks during measurement?

Thanks.

[doitor]

I'm glad that this thread helped you out.
You might want to read ndpang's much more advanced posts on how to use an RTA (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17), and I'm sure you can find a lot of good info using search.
I bought a mic clamp at my local guitar center. Something like the one posted a couple of posts above and clamp it to the head rest.
As for material used for the test, most people use pink noise, but there's also a tutorial about using test tones to get every frequency in the center of the dash, but I don't remember where I found that one.
Let me look and I'll post here when I find it.

Jorge.

[BlackSapphire]

I'm still learning too but here is what I think....

Two ways to do this.

1. Play a quality pink noise track (autosound 2000 cd or similar) at 0db reference. Raise volume to some level (need help here- 70db sufficient?). Do RTA with this setup and freeze the FR graph to see where you're at. You could also tweak EQ settings in real time and watch the results on the FR graph.

2. Tie the output of your soundcard into the various inputs on your amplifier/EQ/whatever and do a 'quick sweep' on the RTA/MLS software. This generates the tone and then records it via the mic.

One method uses your headunit to generate the tone, the other uses the RTA/MLS program to generate the tone.

Experts, Are both ways acceptable?

Also, I purchased a 'low-profile mic stand with boom'. They're only $20 and give you lots of flexibility.

[snaimpally]

Is there a "special" mic needed? And if were using a USB connection for the mic, as Doitor did, we dont need to measure the FR of the computer do we?

Yes, a special mic is needed. If you google this particular mic you will find that it is specially designed for analysis and measurement:

"The ECM8000’s linear frequency response and omni-directional polar pattern allows you to carry out measurement and alignment tasks with minimum hassle and maximum precision, making it a perfect complement to any real-time analyzer."

Most mics do not exhibit these characteristics.

[snaimpally]

The sound card does not come into play because the usb port is being used to transmit the audio information.

I received the final piece of my setup today. Everything worked fine out of the box. Setup was easy.

One question/comment however. Correct me if I'm wrong but all of the steps regarding 'calibrating your sound card' really do not apply if you are not using the analog in/out on your card. If you are using MicMate or similar (USB-based), the sound card doesn't even come into play IMO.

[BlackSapphire]

The sound card does not come into play because the usb port is being used to transmit the audio information.

Exactly what I figured. I wonder if there is anything interesting with respect to TA. I mean, the analog audio out of the soundcard is sending the sweep to the connected equipment. The ECM8000 is recording the output via the USB Audio Codec.

Food for thought...

Anyway, I was playing with it today on my home system. Anyone think the first track of the 'Straight Outta Basstown' CD emphasizes the lower octaves? LMAO

It's a great way to find all of your room rattles. My wife had set a plant on top of the sub. It pretty much walked itself off onto the floor.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/impalaboy/RTA/RTA.jpg

[snaimpally]

Doitor, many thanks for this info. I did not think I could afford an RTA setup and instead it is very affordable. I plan to order the mic and interface in the next few weeks. I use my laptop to configure my RF 3sixty.2 so I should be able to switch back and forth to see how adjustments in eq affect the RTA.

[BlackSapphire]

I think the setup works great. The MicMate is much better than expected.

Yes, thank you Doitor!

So far, I've used this setup with TrueRTA, Fuzzmeasure Pro3, and Room EQ Wizard. Great results and no hiccups so far. Luckily the ECM8000 is so popular that find finding mic calibration files for it is easy.

[doitor]

Glad I can help.

Jorge.

[supersaag]

Hey Jorge did you find the post that shows how to get the image centered with test tones?

[SigTest]

Is the frequency response of MicMate flat enough for ECM8000?

[BlackSapphire]

Draw your own conclusions:



MicMate

Scarborough, ON, MXL Microphones, the professional audio division of Marshall Electronics, is pleased to announce the introduction of their new MicMate Universal USB Microphone Interface. Designed as an incredibly easy-to-use tool that enables any dynamic or condenser microphone to be connected to a personal computer, the new MicMate opens up the world of recording to anyone with a desire to capture crystal clear, professional quality audio. This versatile, compact interface makes capturing audio for podcasts, adding dialog to presentations, recording live performances , and a host of similar applications as simple as connecting any other USB peripheral.

Working with the new MXL MicMate is a pleasure. As a plug and play device for both Windows and Macintosh, it requires no special drivers whatsoever. Simply connect the MicMate’s USB cable to a computer’s USB port, and installation is quick and effortless. The new MicMate is a USB 2.0 high-speed device that is backward compatible with USB 1.1. With a cylindrical form factor roughly equal in size to a Cuban cigar, the MXL MicMate’s operation couldn’t be more intuitive—and as for its performance, let’s just say it ‘smokes’ the competition.

The MXL MicMate is sonically transparent and adds no coloration to the sound of the attached microphone. The analog section of the new MicMate features a 20 Hz-20 kHz frequency response, and a 3-position, switchable attenuation pad with settings for Hi (0 dB), Medium (-5 dB), and Lo (-10 dB), making it easy to configure the attached microphone to virtually any sound source. The digital section features a 16-bit Delta Sigma A/D converter with a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz. For use with condenser microphones, the MicMate supplies 48V Phantom power.

Wayne Freeman, MXL’s Director of Sales and Marketing, commented on the company’s new offering, “The new MXL MicMate Universal USB Microphone Interface makes interfacing both dynamic and condenser microphones into the desktop recording environment an effortless, completely seamless process. Now, amateurs and professionals alike have a plug and play solution for integrating high quality audio into a wide range of recording applications. I’m confident customers will be pleasantly surprised by its easy operation.”

The MXL MicMate Universal USB Microphone Interface carries an MSRP price of $99 and will be available in Q3 of 2007.

[SigTest]

Thanks a lot for the bandwidth information (i.e. 20 Hz-20 kHz) of MicMate. I cannot find this on their website. Will definitely buy one and try.

[egoaudio]

Thanks for the tutorial man. Mine's on its way. Now I just need a laptop. lol.

EGO

[BlackSapphire]

No laptop required. I think it'll all work by osmosis actually. ;)

[doitor]

Thanks for the tutorial man. Mine's on its way. Now I just need a laptop. lol.

EGO

No problem
Glad to help.
Si then it's not $100 for you.:o

Jorge.

[doitor]

No laptop required. I think it'll all work by osmosis actually. ;)

So where would you plug the mic?:o
LOL.

Jorge

[BlackSapphire]

So where would you plug the mic?:o
LOL.

Jorge

Bend over, I'll show ya. :o

LOL..... sorry, just being goofy. Hey Doitor, I just got a nice Canare 15' mic cable. It works so much better now not having that mic plugged directly into the micmate. It's much easier to move around and not stress the connections. Also I noticed that if you plug the mic directly into the mic-mate, you have to remove that metal ring to get the XLR connector to fully seat. Not the case with a real XLR mic cable.

I've got a little mic boom setup coming today (but no car to try any of this in). Oh the humanity.

[kaigoss69]

Hey guys, great info here. Would the Mic Mate work with the mic from the Alpine PXH-100EQ imprint kit? The mic has an 1/8" plug.

[doitor]

Hey guys, great info here. Would the Mic Mate work with the mic from the Alpine PXH-100EQ imprint kit? The mic has an 1/8" plug.

No.
The MicMate is to power "bigger" mics that need phantom power to operate.
You can plug that mic directly to the computer and it should work, but it would be better to have a "measurement mic" to get better results.
That's why the Behringer is used. It's "cheap" and works great.

Jorge.

[kaigoss69]

Thanks Jorge. I am sure I would need an external sound card then, as the sound chip in my laptop would probablt not be adequate. I think I read something about this here before but I cannot find it. What sort of sound card do you guys recommend?

BTW, I think it has been determined that the mic for the Alpine imprint kit is of relatively high quality, not sure though how it would compare to the Behringer.

[doitor]

One of the advantages of the MicMate is that you plug the mic to the computer via USB, and that way you dont need and external soundcard.
If all goes well I will put the "$100 RTA" against a real one (Audiocontrol) and will post results here, to see how accurate it is.

Jorge.

[BlackSapphire]

One of the advantages of the MicMate is that you plug the mic to the computer via USB, and that way you dont need and external soundcard.
If all goes well I will put the "$100 RTA" against a real one (Audiocontrol) and will post results here, to see how accurate it is.

Jorge.

I'd love to see that if you get time to do it.

[doitor]

I'd love to see that if you get time to do it.

It's a done deal.
The Audiocontro RTA should be here next week if all goes well.
I'll post results as soon as I have them.

Jorge.

[BigRed]

David's gonna let you touch the audio control he got from Kevin? :)

P9? 701? is the jury out? :)

[doitor]

David's gonna let you touch the audio control he got from Kevin? :)

P9? 701? is the jury out? :)

Yes he is.:)
And also add a certain H900 to the list.:o
But don't spoil the surprise.
H701 vs H900 vs P9 thread also comming soon.

Jorge.

[txbonds]

Cool. HOpe it proves to be ultra accurate, as I have one of the pieces arriving today, and the other piece arriving Monday to use for my $110 RTA setup, unless you count the cost of TruRTA with 1/3 or 1/6 octave.

[BigRed]

david got a sweet deal on that rta. kevin keeps his stuff in prestine condition and takes very good care of his stuff :)

Good luck Doiter :)

[BlackSapphire]

Did a little testing today with my setup connected to an IBM T60p thinkpad.

I had the Behringer ECM8000/MicMate combo (with a 15' Canare Mic cable) doing some RTA via TrueRTA. I then took some known good 0db test tones on my OTHER PC (desktop) and played them to see what the Behringer/MXL combo measured. No matter which tone I tried (between 20hz and 20khz), the corresponding peak on the RTA was identical to what was suspected. No shift at all.

Today I received an Onstage Kick Drum/Amp mic stand w/boom. This thing is the perfect height for what we're trying to do in my opinion. It'll easily sit in the back seat with the boom centering the microphone at ear level.

[BlackSapphire]

Double post.

[txbonds]

Wish I had known to order an xlr mic cable, stand and usb cable. Got the mic mate and mic in hand, but didn't get any cables. Not sure if the mic mate should have come with one, but mine didn't. I'll have to go dig around in the garage for an unused printer cable when I get a chance, but want to also get an xlr mic cable and stand at some point to.

[snaimpally]

Wish I had known to order an xlr mic cable, stand and usb cable. Got the mic mate and mic in hand, but didn't get any cables. Not sure if the mic mate should have come with one, but mine didn't. I'll have to go dig around in the garage for an unused printer cable when I get a chance, but want to also get an xlr mic cable and stand at some point to.

The Micmate connects to a PC via a standard sided USB cable. It doesn't come with one but these are the standard sized USB so I'm sure you have one lying around or can get one cheap at a computer store.

You do need an XLR cable though to plug your mic in. I don't think that was mentioned. Luckily I have some lying around. Your local Guitar Center or other music store will have some.

Incidentally, I ordered the Micmate and Behringer from Musican's Friend and got both for $49 each with free shipping. The Behringer is on back-order but I might just use one of my existing mics.

[txbonds]

The Micmate connects to a PC via a standard sided USB cable. It doesn't come with one but these are the standard sized USB so I'm sure you have one lying around or can get one cheap at a computer store.

You do need an XLR cable though to plug your mic in. I don't think that was mentioned. Luckily I have some lying around. Your local Guitar Center or other music store will have some.

Incidentally, I ordered the Micmate and Behringer from Musican's Friend and got both for $49 each with free shipping. The Behringer is on back-order but I might just use one of my existing mics.

Yeah, I'm sure I've got a spare cable too once I can put my hands on it. It's basically just a printer cable, with standard USB-A and USB-B ends, or whatever they call them.

The XLR is not absolutely required, as the mic mate can plug directly into the mic, but to get any cord length, to be able to test from outside the vehicle, it would be necessary, so I'll ahve to get a cord.

I got both of my pieces from ebay for $49 and $45, but with shipping the total was $110. :)

[kidwolf909]

Do you guys think it's worth the $100 to build your own RTA to tune your system even if you don't have all the processing power of say an H701 or similar? I have a CD7200mkII and will soon be running fully actively, but will it be worthwhile to buy an RTA system to tweak or is it not enough difference to care about?

TIA!

[my89_928gt]

I have the True RTA $100 program calibrated mic and all that for near 2 years now and have never been able to make it work on my PC :(
Course I did not call tech support either.

Richard

[larryboy2911]

np, what weighting do you lean towards? B?

Professionally I always tune systems using an A weighting curve averaging 80-85dbSPL. In quiet to moderate environements the A weighting is similar to how we hear. As the SPL goes up the weighting shifts over to B then C. if you are tuning to a B or C curve it will be quite bass heavy because naturally we attenuate those frequencies at louder SPL's.

[snaimpally]

I think it is worth it because you can at least find out where the issues are. If you have a good eq, you can even address the major problem areas as well.

Do you guys think it's worth the $100 to build your own RTA to tune your system even if you don't have all the processing power of say an H701 or similar? I have a CD7200mkII and will soon be running fully actively, but will it be worthwhile to buy an RTA system to tweak or is it not enough difference to care about?
TIA!

[12v Electronics]

It's a done deal.
The Audiocontro RTA should be here next week if all goes well.
I'll post results as soon as I have them.

Jorge.

Did you get to compare it to the Audio Control?

Just wondering how it stands up to it. This Micmate sounds pretty cool. I may have to pick one up and run it against our AC RTA myself.

[doitor]

Did you get to compare it to the Audio Control?

Just wondering how it stands up to it. This Micmate sounds pretty cool. I may have to pick one up and run it against our AC RTA myself.

Not yet.
If all goes well I should do it at the Dallas Meet on July 20th.
I'll post the results here.

Jorge.

[bikinpunk]

I compared my laptop setup to a "legitimate" RTA-in-one and got the same readings.

[dvsadvocate]

@bikinpunk
Whats the RTA you compared yours to? Thats really great news!

[bikinpunk]

@bikinpunk
Whats the RTA you compared yours to? Thats really great news!

i really don't know. It's Kirk Proffit's. I saw it at night so never caught the name. He said he paid a couple hundred for it and that was a steal, so it's apparently a high-end RTA.

[12v Electronics]

i really don't know. It's Kirk Proffit's. I saw it at night so never caught the name. He said he paid a couple hundred for it and that was a steal, so it's apparently a high-end RTA.

Did it look something like this?

http://www.mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=16732&d_Id=5252&l1=5252&l2=

We have one of these and I will probably order the mic mate today so I will give them a test. I am curious myself.

[bikinpunk]

Might have. It was dark. All I remember is red dots. May have been 1/3db octave resolution.

[SigTest]

Hi, anybody know the difference between MicMatePro and MicMate, except that MicMatePro has audio output?

[avaxis]

anybody ordering a set soon? can get an extra set and ship it over to me? i'll buy you a beer for the trouble.

[doitor]

Hi, anybody know the difference between MicMatePro and MicMate, except that MicMatePro has audio output?

MicMate

Studio-quality USB Microphone Preamp
Supplies 48V Phantom Power for condenser microphones
Plug and record with your favorite software
No special drivers required
Fully balanced low noise analog front end
Analog gain control
Compact travel size 0.85" OD x 5.75" Long
Heavy duty diecast metal construction


MicMate Pro

Supplies 48V phantom power
Studio-quality microphone preamp
Zero latency monitoring
1/8-inch Stereo headphone jack
Fully balanced low-noise analog front-end
Gain and headphone controls
44.1 kHz and 48.0 kHz/16-bit
USB Powered
Less than 6 inches long
USB 1.1 and 2.0 Compatible

The only differences I can find are the jack out, gain and headphone control.

Jorge.

[SigTest]

Thanks, Jorge, I just found another one, MicPort Pro, it has higher sampling rate (i.e. 96kHz) and bit depth (24 Bit):

http://www.centrance.com/products/mp/i/MicPort%20Pro%20Other%20Side-200.jpg

http://www.centrance.com/products/mp/

[James Bang]

Thanks for the suggestion of the Mic Mate Jorge. I now have one on the way to replace the Behringer UB802 mixer I was using to phantom power my mic and transmit the data via a phono cable.

Now I don't have to worry about the extra wires and power supply to plug in.

I also have the TrueRTA program as well. I'm not sure of some settings though. Especially the input settings. L+R. L-R. R-L. ??? Which one would be ideal for a one mic RTA setup.

(I have full access to all the levels as well, which I may be able to assist others to obtain it as well for free)


One thing I find helpful on the program, is being able to save the curves on memory. It also brings a question. for saving curves to compare left and right sides, should I use the PEAK HOLD feature before I save, or should I use a very wide average?

[James Bang]

got mine in yesterday. I have yet to use it, but it looks to be of good quality. Sure cuts down all the wires I used to need with my old RTA setup

[satsloader]

James, my experience has been ( recording at home ), L+R= both channels summed to mono, L-R= left/right stereo, R-L= Right/left stereo ( channels reversed ). I'm assuming that's the options available as you described..

Cheers,

Bill

[James Bang]

James, my experience has been ( recording at home ), L+R= both channels summed to mono, L-R= left/right stereo, R-L= Right/left stereo ( channels reversed ). I'm assuming that's the options available as you described..

Cheers,

Bill

Thanks for your reply satsloader. Hopefully I can finish some little adjustments in my install/speaker aiming and start getting some more hands on experience with RTAing.

[jdsimons]

Alright guys I order the equipment and hope to see it in a few days.. Get ready for this thread to take off again when I get it cause I'm guessin I will have tons of questions.. :D.. I spent a good 20 hours in my garage last week sitting in the car listening to music and trying to get it by ear. I am hoping this will help improve effeciency.. lol.. and see where the starting point is. Also one quick question.. It seems that I should EQ the RIGHT side then move over to and EQ the LEFT and then see how the RTA looks when both are playing at the same time?? I'll post up data probably here with what it looks like, well.. unless its really bad.. lol..

[jdsimons]

Well it ended up running a bit over $200.. lol.. Mic, Mic MAte, Mic Stand, and the software.. Hope all works good, and seems from those using this system has been pretty happy with its performance..

[12v Electronics]

Got mine today. I will do a side by side test with an Audio Control 3055 shortly. I should have time to do it tonight. I am waiting for the download of the True RTA to show up. I upgraded to the 1/6 octave, but they haven't sent it to my email yet.

[James Bang]

I have the 'scoop' for the 1/24 oct.

I'll trade for some tips and tricks :)

[12v Electronics]

Scoop?

[James Bang]

blah. I need to get it off my other HDD. thought it was on my laptop...

[michaelsil1]

blah. I need to get it off my other HDD. thought it was on my laptop...

Tease! :p

[12v Electronics]

Well it doesn't look like it is going to happen tonight. No code yet. I think testing it in 1 octave mode would be about as accurate as Ray Charles trying to play a game of darts.

[12v Electronics]

I decided to go ahead and try what I had anyway.

The RTA used is an Audio Control 3055 certified spectrum analyzer. This is a quick pic I took testing the Hybrid Audio Clarus 6.5's in my car.

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/5729/rtacomp1oa6.jpg

It is kind of hard to tell at 1 octave resolution, but they look surprisingly close. The mic position and everything else was the same. I unplugged the mic from the Audio Control and plugged it into the Mic Mate.

I decided to mess with the EQ a bit and see if the True RTA would follow.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7479/rtacomp2zy2.jpg

Not too bad, but again it is very hard to tell with the 1 octave resolution. You would definitely need at least need the 1/3 octave version to make any decent adjustments.

Once they send me the registration code for the 1/6 octave version I paid for I will do it again.

[James Bang]

See if this would work.

Code: 6482 1F24 041D

That's all I have for now, until I can get to my other HDD

[12v Electronics]

See if this would work.

Code: 6482 1F24 041D

That's all I have for now, until I can get to my other HDD

Thanks, but that would be piracy :)

Besides, I think the registration code is tied to the name you gave upon registration.

Thanks anyway. I will repost when the code arrives.

[bikinpunk]

I had mine set to 24db resolution. Honestly, anything above 12db is overkill. Actually, 6db is plenty sufficient unless you have superman processing controls.

So, ANYONE WHO'S BUYING THE HIGHER RESOLUTION VERSIONS: 6db is sufficient. ;)

[12v Electronics]

I had mine set to 24db resolution. Honestly, anything above 12db is overkill. Actually, 6db is plenty sufficient unless you have superman processing controls.

So, ANYONE WHO'S BUYING THE HIGHER RESOLUTION VERSIONS: 6db is sufficient. ;)

I agree. The 1/3 is all you need. The only reason I went to the 1/6 is becuase of the extra features it has in the signal generator section.

The only other reason I could see for going into higher resolutions is for diagnosing problems with phase, etc. At that point you really need to know what you are doing with it.

[thazy2]

OK, apparently you guys are much smarter than I. I have purchase Winml and Smart, usp pre, 8000 mic, and notebook but i cant get anything to work. The settings are too confusing, especially for a newbie like me who doesnt understand all the terminology and how they relate. I really want to learn this stuff. at this point, i am seriously considering Audio Control RTA. I came across this thread today. I will give one last attempt. Would someone please post a step by step "how to" on setting of TruRTA? Apparently, i am that slow : (


example: buy tooth past, bring home, open box, remove cap, dispense small amount onto brush, place under running water, insert into mouth, gently rotate to cover all tooth surfaces, rinse brush under running water, now rinse mouth, then smile. LOL


thanks.......Jason

[BlackSapphire]

Well it doesn't look like it is going to happen tonight. No code yet. I think testing it in 1 octave mode would be about as accurate as Ray Charles trying to play a game of darts.

Not many people know this but Ray Charles is an excellent dart thrower. It's true - check the Wikipedia if you don't believe me.

[jdsimons]

Ok I got everything in I ordered a few days ago and have been trying to do some tuning. Unfortunately I really don't have a lot of experience reading and configuring RTA meters. I google searched about an hour and couldn't really find any good info on what to look for and how to set machine settings and parameters. I upload a screen shot of the right front speakers only with no sub. My Question is this if I could get some help:

Where exactly do I need to keep the input level. If you look at the graph everything is negative and that is with my system almost maxed out at the head unit. The head unit runs into a Audio Control Matrix then front stage goes to 2 Audio Control EQT's. So there are a few places I can go to turn up volume by tweaking input and output levels, but we set the JL amps according to the recommend way using the voltmeter and head unit plugged in with no speakers plugged and staying within their spec for 4 ohm impedance.

Well if anyone here has any thoughts or anything would be great. I basically just turned it up loud and then found what frequency I was lacking in and had to much of others and adjusted accordingly. But not sure if the range is correct with it being in the negatives.. Thanks

[michaelsil1]

Ok I got everything in I ordered a few days ago and have been trying to do some tuning. Unfortunately I really don't have a lot of experience reading and configuring RTA meters. I google searched about an hour and couldn't really find any good info on what to look for and how to set machine settings and parameters. I upload a screen shot of the right front speakers only with no sub. My Question is this if I could get some help:

Where exactly do I need to keep the input level. If you look at the graph everything is negative and that is with my system almost maxed out at the head unit. The head unit runs into a Audio Control Matrix then front stage goes to 2 Audio Control EQT's. So there are a few places I can go to turn up volume by tweaking input and output levels, but we set the JL amps according to the recommend way using the voltmeter and head unit plugged in with no speakers plugged and staying within their spec for 4 ohm impedance.

Well if anyone here has any thoughts or anything would be great. I basically just turned it up loud and then found what frequency I was lacking in and had to much of others and adjusted accordingly. But not sure if the range is correct with it being in the negatives.. Thanks

Now use your ears to fine tune then measure again.

[12v Electronics]

Ok I got everything in I ordered a few days ago and have been trying to do some tuning. Unfortunately I really don't have a lot of experience reading and configuring RTA meters. I google searched about an hour and couldn't really find any good info on what to look for and how to set machine settings and parameters. I upload a screen shot of the right front speakers only with no sub. My Question is this if I could get some help:

Where exactly do I need to keep the input level. If you look at the graph everything is negative and that is with my system almost maxed out at the head unit. The head unit runs into a Audio Control Matrix then front stage goes to 2 Audio Control EQT's. So there are a few places I can go to turn up volume by tweaking input and output levels, but we set the JL amps according to the recommend way using the voltmeter and head unit plugged in with no speakers plugged and staying within their spec for 4 ohm impedance.

Well if anyone here has any thoughts or anything would be great. I basically just turned it up loud and then found what frequency I was lacking in and had to much of others and adjusted accordingly. But not sure if the range is correct with it being in the negatives.. Thanks
Unless you are checking SPL, there is no reason to turn it up that loud. Turning it up loud caused resonances and distortion that will throw off your measurements.

This is one problem I see with this RTA. There is no input level adjustment, but you can get the same results by choosing a line midpoint between your frequencies and using that as your reference point. The general rule is to cut frequencies rather than boost them, so keep that in mind when tuning.

[12v Electronics]

I had a chance to compare the True RTA 1/3 octave version to the Audio Control 3055.

I took three shots from the Audio Control RTA and averaged them. I plotted them on a screenshot from the True RTA. The red dots are what the Audio Control unit had measured.

http://www.12velectronics.com/images/rta-3.gif

I am pretty impressed with the accuracy. The 200 hz to 5 khz is pretty much right on the money.

IMO a great deal for the $100.

[slvrtsunami]

Tom, thanks for the comparison. I am glad to see an Audiocontrol piece that I used to use in the '90s is still in use. Shopping I go!!

[12v Electronics]

Tom, thanks for the comparison. I am glad to see an Audiocontrol piece that I used to use in the '90s is still in use. Shopping I go!!

Still in use and still one of the best for car audio IMO. The one I used is actually a newer model and has a few new features, but still the same old quality.

Another thing about the True RTA I don't like is the divisions on the graph. It is vey hard to read. Try to find 315 hz. Not quick and easy and there doesn't seem to be a way to change this.

[jdsimons]

Unless you are checking SPL, there is no reason to turn it up that loud. Turning it up loud caused resonances and distortion that will throw off your measurements.

This is one problem I see with this RTA. There is no input level adjustment, but you can get the same results by choosing a line midpoint between your frequencies and using that as your reference point. The general rule is to cut frequencies rather than boost them, so keep that in mind when tuning.

Thanks for the help and advice. One thing I noticed on your screen shots is your floor is -40db and it looks like your frequencies are almost to 0db and actually had a few frequencies that broke the 0db. If you notice on my screen shot I left the floor way down at -110db and the top at +10db. All of my frequencies I tried to get flat and ended up at -31db any real reason for this. I also set the Mic Mate to High cause when set to low it lowered even more so.

On your thoughts on trying to cut frequencies I set my Source Unit's 9 band EQ to -6db and set all frequencies on the EQT's to 0db. Just as the starting point and see how flat the rta was. Then I adjusted the Eqt's to level up each of the frequencies. Should I set the Source units 9 band EQ to flat 0db rather then the way bottom of -6db. I always thought to start at the bottom so I could have a little more adjustment room, but that might be bad logic. THanks again for all the help.

[12v Electronics]

Thanks for the help and advice. One thing I noticed on your screen shots is your floor is -40db and it looks like your frequencies are almost to 0db and actually had a few frequencies that broke the 0db. If you notice on my screen shot I left the floor way down at -110db and the top at +10db. All of my frequencies I tried to get flat and ended up at -31db any real reason for this. I also set the Mic Mate to High cause when set to low it lowered even more so.

On your thoughts on trying to cut frequencies I set my Source Unit's 9 band EQ to -6db and set all frequencies on the EQT's to 0db. Just as the starting point and see how flat the rta was. Then I adjusted the Eqt's to level up each of the frequencies. Should I set the Source units 9 band EQ to flat 0db rather then the way bottom of -6db. I always thought to start at the bottom so I could have a little more adjustment room, but that might be bad logic. THanks again for all the help.

Don't get too caught up on the 0db mark. Since the input gain is not really adjustable on this, just pick any flat line and use it as your 0 db point. Youe EQ curve is the important thing, not the 0 db mark. Also make sure you have set the volume controls on your laptop correctly as per the instructions.

BTW, The screenshot I used is from a very badly EQ'ed car. Normally you would zoom in a bit when fine tuning.

As far as your source unit, I would set it all to 0 db and use the EQ to make the adjustments.

[jdsimons]

Ok I will have to do that 12v thanks for all the help. Ya notice a couple of dips in that sq car..;)

[skibum]

I just got mine in today. Ordered the mic and micmate from americanmusical.com

Both for 99 and change shipped. Got the 1/24 octave truerta also. Cant wait til this weekend so I can tune.

[AAAAAAA]

This with the H701 are the best investments I have done yet for my system.

Thanks lots doitor.

[doitor]

This with the H701 are the best investments I have done yet for my system.

Thanks lots doitor.

Glad to help.

Jorge.

[X Ray]

I was reading this thread and it had me interested in True RTA. I downloaded it, and was trying to get it to work. I figured I'd dig out the measurement mic that came with my Alpine H650 to see if I could get it to work with True RTA, so I was digging through boxes in the garage.......

LOOK WHAT I FOUND!! :D

I totally forgot I had this! I could have sworn I sold this thing years ago. SWEET!! When you find stuff you forgot you had, it's almost like getting free $hit! :D It's been a long time since I've been into car audio, but now that I've been bitten by the bug again, i'll put it to good use all over again. :p

(the a/c was on when I took the pics, hence the low frequencies)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b269/68LT1camaro/DSC022041.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b269/68LT1camaro/DSC021981.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b269/68LT1camaro/DSC021961.jpg

[AAAAAAA]

So playing around with it and truRTA, it seems as though it's way to sensitive to low frequencies, I got it to look very flat but when llistening to it there was no lows at all (I was expecting it when tuning since my midbase had to be at the lowest setting).

Any ideas? I tried to look and find the "weight" A, B or C but couldn't locate it.

I am starting to think that calibrating the mic is going to be a must.

[michaelsil1]

So playing around with it and truRTA, it seems as though it's way to sensitive to low frequencies, I got it to look very flat but when llistening to it there was no lows at all (I was expecting it when tuning since my midbase had to be at the lowest setting).

Any ideas? I tried to look and find the "weight" A, B or C but couldn't locate it.

I am starting to think that calibrating the mic is going to be a must.

I don't think True RTA has any Weighting.

[12v Electronics]

So playing around with it and truRTA, it seems as though it's way to sensitive to low frequencies, I got it to look very flat but when llistening to it there was no lows at all (I was expecting it when tuning since my midbase had to be at the lowest setting).

Any ideas? I tried to look and find the "weight" A, B or C but couldn't locate it.

I am starting to think that calibrating the mic is going to be a must.

Calibrating the mic as well as the PC IS a must.

Flat is just what the name implies. If you shoot for flat, the bass will not be at any higher of a level than the rest of your frequencies.

[AAAAAAA]

I will have to investigate how to calibrate the mic and PC. I did some reading and said measurement mics can use calibrating but if you don't care about the precise result but more for the the relitive results then it wouldn't need it.

But the PC might still require the calibration it would seem.

The thing about loosing all the lows, because flat should still mean I hear sometihng coming form my mids, what I am getting at is for it to be flat the left side hat to be at 0 on my h701 and right at 1 (it goes to 13). So basically background noise coming from the neighbourhood is all I need to make it apear flat. So it doens't make much sense.

[Timmah318]

having seen 1 octave RTA, I would recommend 1/3 at LEAST. Another software package to look at is SMAART by ewa - fully functioning for 30 days, and easy interface, and great features :)

[BMWturbo]

Try ARTA also, Since my WinMLS code ran out I've been using it.

http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/download.htm

[arcman]

anyone have a mic and usb set up they want to sell ?

[rekd0514]

I want to get an RTA setup like this for sure. Thanks for posting this up! It seems to me though after reading through this thread and playing with the free TrueRTA version that a lot left unexplained in this thread.

It would be sweet if someone could make a guide of the proper settings for doing various things on it. What exactly to put it on for level matching each set of speakers and sub. Doing the frequency analysis on each set of drivers.

I was also wondering if you can use the oscilloscope to see if your tweeters are set correctly. Also can you do time alignment with this equipment like npdang does in his tutorial? What do you have to do to setup this up for accurate db testing? The list goes on it seems. I have an idea of how to do averaging but not exactly sure on it.

What about Mic Cal File, House Curve File, Sound System Correction, Input/Output Frequency, the different Calibrations. What applies when using this USB setup when usually you would be using a sound card.

[chuyler1]

I just got mine in today. Ordered the mic and micmate from americanmusical.com

Both for 99 and change shipped. Got the 1/24 octave truerta also. Cant wait til this weekend so I can tune.

Does the Mic Mate have a cable with it or do I need to buy one of those also? I just need to go from my laptop to ear-height in my car :)

[doitor]

From the Mic Mate to the computer you need one of those printer USB cables.
The ones with the funky square usb conector on one side and a regular rectangular USB on the other.
The Mic Mate plugs directly to the mic on the other side, or you could use an XLR cable i you need more lenght.


Jorge.

[braves6117]

I want to get an RTA setup like this for sure. Thanks for posting this up! It seems to me though after reading through this thread and playing with the free TrueRTA version that a lot left unexplained in this thread.

It would be sweet if someone could make a guide of the proper settings for doing various things on it. What exactly to put it on for level matching each set of speakers and sub. Doing the frequency analysis on each set of drivers.

I was also wondering if you can use the oscilloscope to see if your tweeters are set correctly. Also can you do time alignment with this equipment like npdang does in his tutorial? What do you have to do to setup this up for accurate db testing? The list goes on it seems. I have an idea of how to do averaging but not exactly sure on it.

What about Mic Cal File, House Curve File, Sound System Correction, Input/Output Frequency, the different Calibrations. What applies when using this USB setup when usually you would be using a sound card.
Anybody want to take this request on? I know theres a bunch of people that would benefit from it.

[rekd0514]

It would be very helpful. I mean I understand the basics of what everything does, but if I am going to put the money and work into analyzing the sound I want to at least be doing it the proper way. Basically instead of just guessing what I am doing and not getting good results from it. I don't really want to spend $150 on a setup just to play around on it. I can already do that with the free software and a mic. :)

[chuyler1]

I had a chance to compare the True RTA 1/3 octave version to the Audio Control 3055.

I took three shots from the Audio Control RTA and averaged them. I plotted them on a screenshot from the True RTA. The red dots are what the Audio Control unit had measured.

http://www.12velectronics.com/images/rta-3.gif

I am pretty impressed with the accuracy. The 200 hz to 5 khz is pretty much right on the money.

IMO a great deal for the $100.

This was all I needed to be convinced. I just placed my order at https://www.americanmusical.com.

I'm willing to bet that the differences you see in the comparison above would go away as you got the system closer to a smooth curve. After all, both systems accurately report bass 20-40hz levels in addition to 200-5KHz. Lower the bass and the major descrepences between 50-200Hz won't be different by 10db anymore.

It could also be a factor of how TrueRTA (or AudioControl) averages levels. This could easily explain why the sloping sections of the graphs differ while the flat sections are relatively equal.

Anyway, based on your assesment, it is more than enough proof to me that the system is accurate enough for enthusiast tuning...and as an alternative to the popular MobilePre from M-Audio I think I would rather have this because it reduces the number of wires I have to fiddle with.

[rekd0514]

This was all I needed to be convinced. I just placed my order at https://www.americanmusical.com.

I'm willing to bet that the differences you see in the comparison above would go away as you got the system closer to a smooth curve. After all, both systems accurately report bass 20-40hz levels in addition to 200-5KHz. Lower the bass and the major descrepences between 50-200Hz won't be different by 10db anymore.

It could also be a factor of how TrueRTA (or AudioControl) averages levels. This could easily explain why the sloping sections of the graphs differ while the flat sections are relatively equal.

Anyway, based on your assesment, it is more than enough proof to me that the system is accurate enough for enthusiast tuning...and as an alternative to the popular MobilePre from M-Audio I think I would rather have this because it reduces the number of wires I have to fiddle with.

Exactly why I want to get one of these. I can play around with my car/home/computer speakers for cheap with good results.

[chuyler1]

Damn that was fast. My shipment from american musical already arrived!

Just an FYI for others, the Mic Mate has a square USB input. You will need a USB printer cable. I was thinking my USB extension cord would work but nope, you do need the square adapter that is found on the end of a printer/peripheral cable. I think I've got one in my box of wires...if not I'll be going printer-less for a few days while I try out my new setup.

[braves6117]

It would be sweet if someone could make a guide of the proper settings for doing various things on it. What exactly to put it on for level matching each set of speakers and sub. Doing the frequency analysis on each set of drivers.

I was also wondering if you can use the oscilloscope to see if your tweeters are set correctly. Also can you do time alignment with this equipment like npdang does in his tutorial? What do you have to do to setup this up for accurate db testing? The list goes on it seems. I have an idea of how to do averaging but not exactly sure on it.


Bump for this ^^^^^^request, I'm still battling here!

[chuyler1]

Time Alignment
Cannot be done with TrueRTA that I am aware of. You'll have to do it by ear or with some other software. If someone were to suggest another software suite (preferrably free or at least free-trial) that would be great.

DB testing
If you mean SPL output, I don't believe the ECM8000 should be used for that sort of thing. A calibrated SPL mic should be used instead.

[rekd0514]

Not really to test db for SPL which I think you very well could with this mic. Maybe not as accurate though. I was just wanting to use it for level matching.

[bikinpunk]

Time Alignment
Cannot be done with TrueRTA that I am aware of. You'll have to do it by ear or with some other software. If someone were to suggest another software suite (preferrably free or at least free-trial) that would be great.

DB testing
If you mean SPL output, I don't believe the ECM8000 should be used for that sort of thing. A calibrated SPL mic should be used instead.

t/a can be done with arta. it's free.

[Sillyboy]

So, I picked up the mic and fancy usb adapter and sorta kinda vaguely tried it out, but... I don't actually know what I am doing :)

while normally a windows guy, my bestest lappy is a mac, so I downloaded (trial version I guess?) of FuzzMeasure. I downloaded (a potentially lame?) version of pink noise in mp3 format and put it on my ipod.

Told FuzzMeasure to ... measure... while I played the pink noise and got a graph, but it seems unlikely'ish to me.

Given the huge range of decibels, and that I generally find the tweeters "too loud" (and I don't see that in the graph), I am skeptical of my technique. :)

Normally FuzzMeasure plays a sweep, but I dont have an easy way to get that into my system.

Attached a screenshot, notice the crazy dip at 1k. 35db diff from there to the large bass numbers? skeptical.

Anyone have thoughts (other than... go away n00b :)) ?

[jdsimons]

I used a mac also to do my testing but I use Apple's FREE dual boot and used windows.. lol.. its worth the 100 bucks for a seat of xp on a apple, runs great :) I am not sure about the software your using, wish i could help out there but I ended up buying the TrueRTA softare anyway not sure if there is any good free software for Apple or not.. I may do some looking and see whats out there. About your 1k frequency dip, most people don't like the sound of a flat rta anyway so if you want less tweet then leave.. I use Quarts and on my rta meter showed they were very high so I had to reduce the crossovers to about -2 to -4 db's on the tweeters and made a big difference in getting rid of the harshness of the tweeters at high level and even lower level..

I think I'm gonna go check out that software and see how it compares to TrueRTA on the same computer and see if it is as accurate and such.. Will post screenshots when I can get that ok..

[chuyler1]

From what I can see, your sub gain is pretty high. Nothing wrong with that.
You've got a resonating freq between 250-400Hz which is common with door installations, you may want to cut that range with an EQ.


As for the 1KHz drop, that looks to me like cancelation, or possibly you have a 700Hz crossover point (I hope not). Discconnect both tweeters and subwoofer and run the mids by themself. Check the RTA again to see if the 1K is still there. If it is, try reversing the polarity of one of your mids. You can do the same test for your tweeters as well (run them separate). Finally connect tweeters and mids and see how things work. Try reversing the polarity of both tweeters to see how it looks. Etc, etc, etc. Lastly, connect the subwoofer and try reversing polarity to see which works best.

[Sillyboy]

Ya, I have been meaning to get Windows installed on my MacBook Pro, but I can never decide between parallels, vmware and boot camp... so I keep doing nothing :)

Anyway, lets ignore measurements from my car for a moment and look again at our $100 RTA...

I can confused by what I am seeing here. I used FuzzMeasure twice... with the only changed being "built in mic" to "usb codec". to my untrained eyes, the built in actually looks a flatter? (which isn't to say it *should* be super flat, I man... the output is coming from a tiny computer speaker).

Also not sure what the more "fuzzy" nature of the ecm8000 implies (like more smoothing was required to make it look okay).

[jdsimons]

Well I downloaded the Fuzzmeasure and can tell you as of now I absolutely hate it..lol..:) I guess I am not sure how to change most of the settings on this thing. But I would definately use the usb Microphone, I'm guess the laptop mic will not be able to pick up a full frequency range from 20hz to 20khz with any kind of accuracy, it may, but I guessing not. After trying to use that program for a few hours I went back to TrueRta and the measurements were nothing alike. I think I also had the same case where it dipped severely around the 1k mark to around 2.5, which should not be true. When I took the measurement back to the TrueRTA software that valley was gone and had a more controlled curve. That is from the same laptop, usb port, same mic, same position and same volume. Reading what that software is capable of, I thought it may have been better then the true Rta software but also tends to be a more complex I guess. Fuzzmeasure says that it can measure distortion and resonances also, just not sure how the setup the program to tell me all that stuff.. Thats the software newbie in me I guess.. lol .. :)

[Sillyboy]

Hrm, apparently I really do have an issue at 1k, even according to ghetto free version of True RTA :)

[xlynoz]

I want to make sure I got everything straight in my head before I place the order.

Here is the hardware I will need:
Behringer ECM8000
MXL USB Mic Mate XLR to USB Preamp Converter
XLR Cable (connect Mic Mate to Behringer)
USB Cable (connect Mic Mate to PC)
Mic stand and boom

Can someone confirm that a sound card is not needed. My laptop has one but it sucks. I just don't want to have to purchase another one if I don't need to. If this is the case is it just a direct configuration of the pre-mic / mic in TrueRTA?

Also there has been mention of having to calibrate the mic and PC. Is there a preset file that I can use for this?

If everyone can pitch in on the data I would be more than happy to pull it all together for a tutorial on how to set up and use this configuration.

[12v Electronics]

I want to make sure I got everything straight in my head before I place the order.

Here is the hardware I will need:
Behringer ECM8000
MXL USB Mic Mate XLR to USB Preamp Converter
XLR Cable (connect Mic Mate to Behringer)
USB Cable (connect Mic Mate to PC)
Mic stand and boom

Can someone confirm that a sound card is not needed. My laptop has one but it sucks. I just don't want to have to purchase another one if I don't need to. If this is the case is it just a direct configuration of the pre-mic / mic in TrueRTA?

Also there has been mention of having to calibrate the mic and PC. Is there a preset file that I can use for this?

If everyone can pitch in on the data I would be more than happy to pull it all together for a tutorial on how to set up and use this configuration.

That is all you will need. The Mic Mate replaces the input side of your sound card. Changing the sound card is not necessary.

There is a calibration file for the ECM8000 built into the software and the PC calibration is simple to do. There are good instructions in the help section of the software.

[chuyler1]

If you get a long enough USB cable you don't need an XLR cable. The end of the MicMate screws off so you can hook the Mic up directly. Remember that you need a printer-style USB cable (rectangular on one end, square on the other).

[Sillyboy]

How do I get myself into these things? :)

After spending money on Parallels to let me run Vista on ye' old mac lappy, and spending money on TrueRTA to get better resolution... I still don't know what is going on :-P

Note: I did swap the +/- on the left side... meh.

I tried my semi-normal listening setup w/ all kinds of wackyness enabled on the head unit (bbe, extra bass and such)... with a different pink noise file. Valley of death at 1kz, spike of death at ~3kz. And some suggestion of gynormous amounts of bass. (ya, right)

The 2nd one is with all the fancyness turned, bass/treble at zero, and I sorta manually balanced the sub against the frequency response graph. And, this was a sweep... w/ truerta setup to store the "peeks". Same epic trough/peak at 1khz/3khz, consistent is good :)

Two things:
- the graph lies :) In listening, what you really notice is "oh, alot of volume is coming from the tweeters". the good news is these tweeters are not harsh at all, so its listenable... but even my wife noted "the tweeters seem loud". sub-note, I am using the built in cross over w/ the ID component set.

- um, my door install. ya, holes. Is this likely causing my trauma and cancellation? Pic from my 5th blog entry (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/blog.php?b=6):
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/blog_attachment.php?attachmentid=1&stc=1&d=1223962877

[chuyler1]

Cancelation, as I said before is most likely due to swapped polarity on one or more speakers. Disconnect everything and tune speakers one at a time, and two at a time. left midbass, right midbass, then left and right midbass together, etc etc.

As for going for a flat response, most people don't enjoy that much treble so often times we tune for a downward sloping response which means more bass and less tweeter.

Use the RTA for a visual, and correct things with your ear. If your corrections don't sound right to your ear, they probably aren't the right corrections... :)

[chuyler1]

dbl post.

[Sillyboy]

chuyler1...

Note: I did swap the +/- on the left side... meh.


I run component speakers w/ the passive crossover that came with them. So... I don't think I have any realistic way to tune the tweeters/mid separately.

Swapping the polarity of one side (at the amp), didn't seem to have any impact.

maybe its time to man up and use the 4 channel amp to drive just the front tweeters and woofers. really wish I had a fancy deck w/ a mic that just made everything magically work :)

[xlynoz]

chuyler1...


I run component speakers w/ the passive crossover that came with them. So... I don't think I have any realistic way to tune the tweeters/mid separately.

Swapping the polarity of one side (at the amp), didn't seem to have any impact.

maybe its time to man up and use the 4 channel amp to drive just the front tweeters and woofers. really wish I had a fancy deck w/ a mic that just made everything magically work :)

Sure you can. Make your phase swaps at the output of the passive crossover. For tuning individually pull the tweeter/mid connection one at time at the crossover.

[xlynoz]

That is all you will need. The Mic Mate replaces the input side of your sound card. Changing the sound card is not necessary.

There is a calibration file for the ECM8000 built into the software and the PC calibration is simple to do. There are good instructions in the help section of the software.

Great news. I will get this ordered. Once I get it in I will start on a step by step tutorial. Please everyone I'm sure I will be asking questions so any help you provide will be helping the forum.

Thanks in advance.

[Sillyboy]

Sure you can. Make your phase swaps at the output of the passive crossover. For tuning individually pull the tweeter/mid connection one at time at the crossover.

That makes sense :) And I actually though of that, but recall reading an article some moons ago about destroying tweeters if something went wrong w/ your crossover... and got scared. This is clearly different.

Though, given swapping the +/- on left side (admittedly for both tweeter and woofer) seemed to have no impact... do we actually think swapping at the crossover will make any difference?

[ericnord]

Is it cheaper to get the mic that comes w/ the Alpine kit for $29.99. Then all you need to do is buy TrueRTA:

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=140&i=500KTXH100&search=h100&tp=116&tab=detailed_info

[michaelsil1]

Is it cheaper to get the mic that comes w/ the Alpine kit for $29.99. Then all you need to do is buy TrueRTA:

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=140&i=500KTXH100&search=h100&tp=116&tab=detailed_info

The cheaper you go the less accurate your measurements.

[doitor]

Is it cheaper to get the mic that comes w/ the Alpine kit for $29.99. Then all you need to do is buy TrueRTA:

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=140&i=500KTXH100&search=h100&tp=116&tab=detailed_info

You need a measurement mic with a known flat response to get good accurate results.
I can loan you mine along with the micmate if you want.

Jorge.

[ericnord]

Thnx Jorge,

You still coming up this way end of the week?

[doitor]

Thnx Jorge,

You still coming up this way end of the week?

Yes.
Sending you a pm right now.

Jorge.

[arcman]

I was having problems getting room eq and TrueRTA to work correctly for some reason, seems to be picking up noise, even if I unplug the mic it is still showing results?? Anyways, I found another small rta program that got me going so I could do some tuning for now.

http://www.e.kth.se/~johk/jdft/download.html
it took only a few second to download and worked instantly

[Sillyboy]

Another USB -> XLR converter:
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BLU-ICICLE

No idea if its better/worse/same than the other one in this thread, but thought I would pass it along.

[handy]

http://bb-measurement.angelfire.com/

anyone us it?