shinjohn
06-02-2006, 02:45 AM
(warning.. this is really long winded..)
First, a couple of notes...
* About me: A DIYer for most things I do, and an enthusiast for car, home and pro audio. I used to DJ in a former life, and designed all active, horn loaded speaker systems for use by the company (seems like eons ago). I'm glad I stumbled across this forum. I'm learning alot, and hope some of the things I write about can help others too.
* I've attempted to document the install process of my latest car audio project, a 2005 Subaru STI here at:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3400
Described here are my subjective evaluations and comments as I work to develop this vehicle's sound system.
The "system" as it stands today:
- Pioneer DEH-P3600 head unit: cheap ~$150 CD head, very representative of what the greater masses would buy when they want a "new radio". We recycled this piece from his prior vehicle as a starting point. The plan is to replace it eventually with the Alpine IVA-W200/701 combo w/ amps.
- Sound deadened front doors: thanks to Rick, we've installed Raammat on the inner and outer skins, as well as ensolite foam on the inside of the door. We're moving on to finish the foam, and get other critical areas of the vehicle deadened next.....
- LPG 25NFAs and Seas CA18RLY installed in the stock front door locations. LPG's with a 6dB/oct passive HP @ 3500Hz, no crossover on the Seas. There is no padding on the tweeters. All run off the Pioneer head's internal power.
- Sub is built, sub amp is acquired, but neither is installed yet. All in due time.
It may seem strange to start at this point with this install (given that funds are not a limiting issue), but I wanted to do 3 specific things:
1) Answer the question: does DIY make sense for the average Joe who can't afford all active channels? In other words, can a Joe get a head unit, some speakers (and crossover components) and put something together that beats what the big-box retailers offer at the same price?
2) Establish a starting point for myself to have discourse with the more experienced DIYers here. Having not heard any of DIY components frequently talked about here, I wanted to try something first that MANY people have tried and are familiar with. This gives me a baseline to speak and move from. It also brings everyone else's opinions into clearer relative focus.
3) Show my buddy how different factors (sound deadening, head unit, speakers, amps) all can impact sound "quality" of a system. He can then form opinions on what variables made the most difference in his mind. (I already have my opinions based on my own experience)
OK now, so on to the eval... I will give my opinions relative to my experience with lots of retail-market car audio, and my extensive experience with Dynaudio 2-way setups (which I use in my personal vehicles). I think Dyn is as good a reference as any because many car audio enthuisasts have heard them and they are at least (generally) fairly well regarded.....
LPG 25NFA
Wow. What a tweeter for the $$. I got these off Damian (AzGrower) for a good price and they were well worth it (Thanks D!). They are compact (shallow depth), which allows flexible placement, so I couldn't see these being a problem to install in just about any car. Build quality is good, but the sound really is the most impressive thing.
My Breakdown of Positives and Negatives:
+ Really nice top end extension and detail. Lots of sparkle and shimmer. My buddy says "crisp", I would say "accurate and detailed in the very highest octaves."
+ Smooth, generally non-fatiguing sound. Turn them up and they don't scream like most mass market car audio tweeters.
- Relative to the Dyn MD100, it doesn't play very low (I tried these without a crossover too)
- As Nguyen notes, I do think they get a tad spitty at high volume. Higher crossover points and/or moderate volume levels fix this issue.
My general assessment is that for the $$ they are fantastic. On a value basis (cost/performance), they would clearly rank higher than the Dyn MD100 or any other car audio tweeter I've heard so far. However, I still think there are characteristics of the Dyn tweeter I like more, esp. on classical music. Dyn MD100 doesn't sparkle on the top end like the LPG, but for harpsichord, violin, and strings, they render a higher level of detail and transparency in the lower/mid treble. I tried the LPGs in one of my cars head to head with the MD100, and reaffirmed this difference. This is where personal preference, music taste, etc.. really comes into play. If I were to listen to "ear candy" music more, the LPG would be preferable. On the other hand, I think the MD100s can get harsh at high volume. My high-SPL days are over though, so this isn't too important to me.
Seas CA18RLY
First, I want to say that this driver was chosen for several specific reasons:
1) Good match to the LPGs, or so it's been said.
2) Smooth response, with controlled roll off on the top end, allowing it to potentially be run w/o a xover
3) Shallowest mounting depth of the Seas 7" line. The STI has VERY LITTLE space in the door for speaker depth. This was a VERY important consideration. Otherwise, I'd have prefered the RNX motor, or better yet, the W18NX.
4) Peter (alphakenny1) sold these to me through the forum, and he's even local. Thanks dude!
Assessment:
+ Very neutral sound, with a distinct lack of coloration. The speaker didn't seem to impart it's own tonal characteristic on the music, like alot of drivers do.
+ Smooth, extended, high end frequency response. No harsh cone modes, or other resonances that need to be filtered out. In a car door with no crossover, they sounded great!
+ Firm, respectable midbass response
- Lack of midrange detail
- Not as "snappy" or "fast" as some other midbasses I've heard
Overall, I really liked these drivers. Who says paper is "cheap" sounding? :D
I think the strength of these speakers lies in their neutrality and ability to render music in a way that sounds warm and non-offensive. A good amount of detail comes out, but never in a way that is too forward or in your face. Laid back and versatile would be the best way for me to describe them. These guys do their job, and do it well.
My biggest complaint was midrange detail. I found male vocals such as Josh Groban to be slightly lacking with these. I didn't find this to be very noticable with music such as pop and rock, so YMMV. These speakers are not door rattlers either. Midbass was very good and balanced, but not as snappy like say a Focal Polykev (Power) mid or some metal cone home speakers I've heard. The RLY motor has limited excursion, so no surprise that their ultimate output capability isn't super high either. Is it quite enough for the majority of people? I would definitely say yes.
To compare to say a Dyn MW160, the CA18s are more efficient and seem to play a little higher in frequency. Midbass is tighter on the Dyn, but not by much. I think the Dyn is a little more revealing in the midrange too. Given the price delta, the Seas is the clear value winner. I wouldn't swap my Dyns for the CA18s though. :D Maybe the W18NX.. :p
Performance as a Component Set
I'll wrap this up by saying this much. My expectations were pretty low when I did this "experiment". A couple of tweeters, a couple of woofers, a couple of caps, and about a day's install effort seemed to be worth it to get a baseline. My friend and I critically auditioned the system, and both of us were thoroughly impressed. This basic system, simply put, sounds great. It's the best I've ever heard with a budget roughly of:
$150 head unit
$70 tweeters (used, incl. ship)
$75 woofers (used, local pickup)
$5 for some capacitors
:o
Yowsers. You can't buy ANYTHING in the mass car audio market (that I'm aware of) that will match the performance of this setup. For less that $200 brand new, you can get the speakers and crossover components shipped straight to you. Forget the cheapie big-box brands. There's no comparison to me. I'd also say that this setup gives most $300-$800 (retail priced) components a thrashing, or at least a hard run for their money. Of course, I say this with the caveat that this is based on my own audio-value system and preferences.
Finally, if there are other newbies who want to try the same components or something similar (cheapie, passive setup), some words of advice:
- Invest in the door deadening. It'll hugely improve the performance of your midbass drivers.
- Take your time on the install. It's all in the details, and if you DIY, that's really the fun of it.
- KISS: if this is your first time, go with a simple crossover on the tweeter like I did and get a variety of resistors so you can attenuate the tweeter to your tastes. The irony was that my buddy really likes a bright top end, so he wanted the tweeter unpadded in his setup. I must admit I was hesitant, but it works OK because the tweeter is pretty smooth. If I were to listen to it every day, I'd have knocked the tweeter level down with a ~3 ohm power resistor BEFORE the capacitor (keeps same crossover slope).
- Bear in mind that if you had 4 ohm speakers before, you will not be used to the high gains (levels) you will have to crank your head unit to get the volume up on these 8 ohm drivers. We were able to crank the Pioneer to it's top volume level without clipping on some playback material. This shouldn't be a big deal honestly, because for most it will be plenty loud. Or, just get outboard amps. :D :p
Whew. I think I've had it for one typing session. Hope this wasn't too boring. Good luck all, and of course questions, comments, & suggestions are always welcome.
First, a couple of notes...
* About me: A DIYer for most things I do, and an enthusiast for car, home and pro audio. I used to DJ in a former life, and designed all active, horn loaded speaker systems for use by the company (seems like eons ago). I'm glad I stumbled across this forum. I'm learning alot, and hope some of the things I write about can help others too.
* I've attempted to document the install process of my latest car audio project, a 2005 Subaru STI here at:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3400
Described here are my subjective evaluations and comments as I work to develop this vehicle's sound system.
The "system" as it stands today:
- Pioneer DEH-P3600 head unit: cheap ~$150 CD head, very representative of what the greater masses would buy when they want a "new radio". We recycled this piece from his prior vehicle as a starting point. The plan is to replace it eventually with the Alpine IVA-W200/701 combo w/ amps.
- Sound deadened front doors: thanks to Rick, we've installed Raammat on the inner and outer skins, as well as ensolite foam on the inside of the door. We're moving on to finish the foam, and get other critical areas of the vehicle deadened next.....
- LPG 25NFAs and Seas CA18RLY installed in the stock front door locations. LPG's with a 6dB/oct passive HP @ 3500Hz, no crossover on the Seas. There is no padding on the tweeters. All run off the Pioneer head's internal power.
- Sub is built, sub amp is acquired, but neither is installed yet. All in due time.
It may seem strange to start at this point with this install (given that funds are not a limiting issue), but I wanted to do 3 specific things:
1) Answer the question: does DIY make sense for the average Joe who can't afford all active channels? In other words, can a Joe get a head unit, some speakers (and crossover components) and put something together that beats what the big-box retailers offer at the same price?
2) Establish a starting point for myself to have discourse with the more experienced DIYers here. Having not heard any of DIY components frequently talked about here, I wanted to try something first that MANY people have tried and are familiar with. This gives me a baseline to speak and move from. It also brings everyone else's opinions into clearer relative focus.
3) Show my buddy how different factors (sound deadening, head unit, speakers, amps) all can impact sound "quality" of a system. He can then form opinions on what variables made the most difference in his mind. (I already have my opinions based on my own experience)
OK now, so on to the eval... I will give my opinions relative to my experience with lots of retail-market car audio, and my extensive experience with Dynaudio 2-way setups (which I use in my personal vehicles). I think Dyn is as good a reference as any because many car audio enthuisasts have heard them and they are at least (generally) fairly well regarded.....
LPG 25NFA
Wow. What a tweeter for the $$. I got these off Damian (AzGrower) for a good price and they were well worth it (Thanks D!). They are compact (shallow depth), which allows flexible placement, so I couldn't see these being a problem to install in just about any car. Build quality is good, but the sound really is the most impressive thing.
My Breakdown of Positives and Negatives:
+ Really nice top end extension and detail. Lots of sparkle and shimmer. My buddy says "crisp", I would say "accurate and detailed in the very highest octaves."
+ Smooth, generally non-fatiguing sound. Turn them up and they don't scream like most mass market car audio tweeters.
- Relative to the Dyn MD100, it doesn't play very low (I tried these without a crossover too)
- As Nguyen notes, I do think they get a tad spitty at high volume. Higher crossover points and/or moderate volume levels fix this issue.
My general assessment is that for the $$ they are fantastic. On a value basis (cost/performance), they would clearly rank higher than the Dyn MD100 or any other car audio tweeter I've heard so far. However, I still think there are characteristics of the Dyn tweeter I like more, esp. on classical music. Dyn MD100 doesn't sparkle on the top end like the LPG, but for harpsichord, violin, and strings, they render a higher level of detail and transparency in the lower/mid treble. I tried the LPGs in one of my cars head to head with the MD100, and reaffirmed this difference. This is where personal preference, music taste, etc.. really comes into play. If I were to listen to "ear candy" music more, the LPG would be preferable. On the other hand, I think the MD100s can get harsh at high volume. My high-SPL days are over though, so this isn't too important to me.
Seas CA18RLY
First, I want to say that this driver was chosen for several specific reasons:
1) Good match to the LPGs, or so it's been said.
2) Smooth response, with controlled roll off on the top end, allowing it to potentially be run w/o a xover
3) Shallowest mounting depth of the Seas 7" line. The STI has VERY LITTLE space in the door for speaker depth. This was a VERY important consideration. Otherwise, I'd have prefered the RNX motor, or better yet, the W18NX.
4) Peter (alphakenny1) sold these to me through the forum, and he's even local. Thanks dude!
Assessment:
+ Very neutral sound, with a distinct lack of coloration. The speaker didn't seem to impart it's own tonal characteristic on the music, like alot of drivers do.
+ Smooth, extended, high end frequency response. No harsh cone modes, or other resonances that need to be filtered out. In a car door with no crossover, they sounded great!
+ Firm, respectable midbass response
- Lack of midrange detail
- Not as "snappy" or "fast" as some other midbasses I've heard
Overall, I really liked these drivers. Who says paper is "cheap" sounding? :D
I think the strength of these speakers lies in their neutrality and ability to render music in a way that sounds warm and non-offensive. A good amount of detail comes out, but never in a way that is too forward or in your face. Laid back and versatile would be the best way for me to describe them. These guys do their job, and do it well.
My biggest complaint was midrange detail. I found male vocals such as Josh Groban to be slightly lacking with these. I didn't find this to be very noticable with music such as pop and rock, so YMMV. These speakers are not door rattlers either. Midbass was very good and balanced, but not as snappy like say a Focal Polykev (Power) mid or some metal cone home speakers I've heard. The RLY motor has limited excursion, so no surprise that their ultimate output capability isn't super high either. Is it quite enough for the majority of people? I would definitely say yes.
To compare to say a Dyn MW160, the CA18s are more efficient and seem to play a little higher in frequency. Midbass is tighter on the Dyn, but not by much. I think the Dyn is a little more revealing in the midrange too. Given the price delta, the Seas is the clear value winner. I wouldn't swap my Dyns for the CA18s though. :D Maybe the W18NX.. :p
Performance as a Component Set
I'll wrap this up by saying this much. My expectations were pretty low when I did this "experiment". A couple of tweeters, a couple of woofers, a couple of caps, and about a day's install effort seemed to be worth it to get a baseline. My friend and I critically auditioned the system, and both of us were thoroughly impressed. This basic system, simply put, sounds great. It's the best I've ever heard with a budget roughly of:
$150 head unit
$70 tweeters (used, incl. ship)
$75 woofers (used, local pickup)
$5 for some capacitors
:o
Yowsers. You can't buy ANYTHING in the mass car audio market (that I'm aware of) that will match the performance of this setup. For less that $200 brand new, you can get the speakers and crossover components shipped straight to you. Forget the cheapie big-box brands. There's no comparison to me. I'd also say that this setup gives most $300-$800 (retail priced) components a thrashing, or at least a hard run for their money. Of course, I say this with the caveat that this is based on my own audio-value system and preferences.
Finally, if there are other newbies who want to try the same components or something similar (cheapie, passive setup), some words of advice:
- Invest in the door deadening. It'll hugely improve the performance of your midbass drivers.
- Take your time on the install. It's all in the details, and if you DIY, that's really the fun of it.
- KISS: if this is your first time, go with a simple crossover on the tweeter like I did and get a variety of resistors so you can attenuate the tweeter to your tastes. The irony was that my buddy really likes a bright top end, so he wanted the tweeter unpadded in his setup. I must admit I was hesitant, but it works OK because the tweeter is pretty smooth. If I were to listen to it every day, I'd have knocked the tweeter level down with a ~3 ohm power resistor BEFORE the capacitor (keeps same crossover slope).
- Bear in mind that if you had 4 ohm speakers before, you will not be used to the high gains (levels) you will have to crank your head unit to get the volume up on these 8 ohm drivers. We were able to crank the Pioneer to it's top volume level without clipping on some playback material. This shouldn't be a big deal honestly, because for most it will be plenty loud. Or, just get outboard amps. :D :p
Whew. I think I've had it for one typing session. Hope this wasn't too boring. Good luck all, and of course questions, comments, & suggestions are always welcome.