how to: fiberglass fabrication

[benny z]

buddy of mine posted this on our local site...figured i'd link it here.

mad skills he's got...mad skills!

http://www.cicenet.net/showthread.php?t=4124

[Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX]

Nice...!!! X1000

[robbyho]

I think he is missing the pics where he reinforced the resin-soaked-carpet from behind with fiberglass.

At least I hope he is missing those pics.

[benny z]

always a hater! :D

If needed, you can add fiberglass mat to the backside for extra strength. You will have to decide if your piece requires this or not. You can do as many layers as necessary.

[Rudeboy]

I think he is missing the pics where he reinforced the resin-soaked-carpet from behind with fiberglass.

At least I hope he is missing those pics.

Doesn't sound like it, but it looks nice.


If needed, you can add fiberglass mat to the backside for extra strength. You will have to decide if your piece requires this or not. You can do as many layers as necessary.

[BLD MOVS]

Very nice!!

[meteoro84]

niceeeeeee

[robbyho]

Guys, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but if those panels aren't reinforced with fiberglass on the backside, then they are not "nice" at all. They will flex and the paint will crack in a matter of months or sooner. Knowing of so many fabricators who don't reinforce, I am hesitant to give him the benefit of the doubt regardless of the quality of finish (a hem, orange peel).

I am not one to hate on teh internet, but structural reinforcement it is an important thing to look for when it comes to fabrication of this sort. Whether you be the one doing it or paying for it, you should expect it.

Robby

[benny z]

in case you didn't read through the lines...

they___are___reinforced.

he'll be updating the thread if he hasn't already.

thanks for your concern. :)

*edit - actually, yeah, looks like he did update it.

If needed, you can add fiberglass mat to the backside for extra strength. You will have to decide if your piece requires this or not. You can do as many layers as necessary. I added multiple layers of cloth on the exposed areas on the inside of the enclosures. You can also use this method to seal up gaps, holes etc.

[reindeers]

Wow... Your friend does great work. Very impressive.

[robbyho]

in case you didn't read through the lines...

they___are___reinforced.

he'll be updating the thread if he hasn't already.

thanks for your concern. :)

*edit - actually, yeah, looks like he did update it.

glad to hear it! :D

[Boostedrex]

Your friend does some nice work. Though that's the first time I've seen anyone use speaker box carpet as their forming medium. I would think that would be a bit on the expensive side in comparison to fleece or t-shirt material. But it seems to work for him.

The one thing that I didn't catch on there. Was he adding layers of glass to the inside of the speaker enclosures or to the outside?

Zach

[benny z]

not sure why he used the carpet. i'd guess because it was just handy...he has huge rolls of several different colors at the shop, so that's probably why he just used that. may also have something to do with the strength of the backing...not sure.

he applied layers of fiberglass matting to the back side (inside) of the enclosures after the resin had cured on the carpet.

[MidnightCE]

I'm disturbed by how many people don't take safety precautions when working with resin.

[Boostedrex]

not sure why he used the carpet. i'd guess because it was just handy...he has huge rolls of several different colors at the shop, so that's probably why he just used that. may also have something to do with the strength of the backing...not sure.

he applied layers of fiberglass matting to the back side (inside) of the enclosures after the resin had cured on the carpet.

If he has that much carpet laying around the shop then that would easily explain why he chose to use it. :) And he has a great deal of patience to do layers of glass inside the enclosure. I'm way too impatient for that. I just do layers on the outside because it's about 10 million times easier. LOL!

And the amp rack/enclosures turned out beautifully once the paint was finished on them. Very nice work.



Midnight, you're right. I've seen so many people glassing stuff without wearing a respirator or even wearing rubber gloves. Not the most intelligent people though. Maybe Darwin was right after all? :D

[tr0y_audi0]

Thanks to : mklett33 of www.fiberglassforums.com

For an average project the following items and materials are needed. Anything that does not have a specified price means it is under $10. Anything that does not have a location to obtain the item is assumed that you would be able to find the item easily in a typical store. The items are ordered in a manner to help with the production of a work piece. (Note: Common tools ie. Table saw, jig saw are not listed)

Plunge router: Very useful, allows you to use all sorts of various bits and such. Used to make rings and rabbit grooves into skeleton structures allowing for cleaner edges where the fiberglass structure meets the wood structure. Obtain at hardware stores. $50 and up.

Custom router table: Secures the router allowing for ease in production. Obtain at hardware stores. Can be made or bought.
Roundover bit: Can be used to smooth visual edges, useful on edges of speaker rings so no “hard” edge is seen. Obtain at hardware stores. $20 and up.

Flush mount bit: Makes an exact copy of a shape into wood. Useful for obtaining symmetry while producing the wooden skeleton. Obtain at hardware stores. $20 and up.

Rabbiting bit: Allows for a groove in the workpiece. This allows a channel for which the staples can be fastened when securing the fabric to the wood structure. Allows a clean cut to be made. Obtain at hardware stores. $20 and up.

Circle jig: Some research is needed here but this allows you to make perfect circles using a router for speakers etc. It can be made or purchased.

3/4 – inch Medium Density Fiberboard (MDF): For framing the basis of the structure, use as much as possible as it is cheaper than building up fiberglass to the same strength. Obtained at local lumber yards and Home Depot / Lowes. Price: $26 (4'-8' Sheet).

Dust masks or hydrocarbon mask: Helps you keep from getting “high” off resin fumes as well as preventing you from getting lung cancer while sanding later in the process.

Polyester resin w/ cataylst: The main ingredient for fiberglassing. Used with catalyst to bond the strong fibers of glass to one another. The resin alone is not strong and rather brittle when dried. It is the glass fibers or carbon fiber that produce the strength. Obtained at boat repair stores, hardware stores, and online. Ranges in quality priced at $30-50 a gallon.

Fiberglass mat: This produces the strength when “wetted out” with resin. Comes in various weights per area. A denser mat allows for strength to be produced quicker but is harder to use on curves of a structure. Obtained at boat repair stores, hardware stores, and online. Varies in price: Look online (not expensive compared to resin).

Fleece: Used to produce a structure shape over the MDF skeleton in order to allow the initial coat of resin to dry and thus be strengthened via more mat and resin. Obtained at local fabric stores. ~$4 a yard.

Staple gun: This allows you to staple the fabric to the wood structure. Get shallow staples as strength is not important and you may have to pull the staples a few times in order to manipulate the fabric into not having any wrinkles.

Scissors and razor: Allows you to cut the fabric as well as the fiberglass mat into nice little squares.

Plastic drop cloth: Nice for not messing up the garage floor.

Mixing cups (1 qt and 2.5qt) and sticks: Used to mix resin, the cheaper the better as you can throw them away after to much use. Obtained at: Painting stores, hardware stores.

Latex gloves: To protect your hands.
2-3” chip brush: Best for applying resin to your creation. Leave it in the cup to dry that way any extra resin pulls out with the cup allowing you to reuse the cup.

Fiberglass roller: Best item in order to roll bubbles out of the mat after it has been “wetted” out with resin.

Spray glue: Can be used to hold mat in place before applying resin, makes for a cleaner application process.

Acetone: Used to clean resin off things it shouldn’t be on, always keep around just in case.

Plastics spreaders: Used to spread body filler in a uniform manner not introducing air bubbles. Obtain at hardware stores or paint supply stores.

Body filler: Once your structure is made you apply body filler, this will allow you to have a nice smooth surface. Research “green stage” sanding. Can be obtained at auto parts stores and painters supply stores. STAY AWAY FROM BONDO BRAND. Varies in quality $15-50 a gallon.

Die grinder and/or DA grinder: Useful in knocking down heavy filler. Follow up with sandpaper. Obtain at hardware stores. $20 and up.

Sandpaper 40-220 grits: Use to sand the body filler to a satisfactory smoothness in order to allow for paint or wrapping of covering materials like suede or vinyl.

Hopefully this will help, pm me for additions... Special thanks to xiidentiity for the original thread

[tr0y_audi0]

Also A Great Post On www.fiberglassforums.com


DISCLAIMER: This thread will appear pointless at a glance unless you READ the text in between each picture)


well i went to Joanns Fabrics to pick up some vinyl samples and look at some micro suede .. and i remembered that orange felt that frodo uses.. so i grabbed a yard to try..
I was browsing around and over by the polyester spandex or "poly-dex" i found another similar material called Ponte(at least thats what the damn sign above it said). its 100% polyester.. no Lycra or rayon in it.
so i decided to grab some of it to try as well.

Now over time after having used fleece,grill cloth, trunk liner and polydex to stretch a project with.. i have to say my preference is to use grill cloth for smaller stuff and trunk liner for larger stuff. But since I havn't used either one of these two materials I got at Joanns yesterday , i figured i would toss a quick test together. and I know you guys love pics and info so... here goes.


the two materials
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00023.jpg
the felt.. you've seen this before.. lol
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00027.jpg
and the white cloth (ponte).. this stuff looks alot like grill cloth, buts its 2 to 3 times as thick and is stiffer and has a firmer stretch, yet will stretch farther than grill cloth IMO..
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00026.jpg

I decided to make just a couple of quick speaker pods from some rings that just happened to be on my bench at the time. nothing special.. just something to test the materials out. While I was at it, I decided to employ frodo's cardboard trick to mount the rings, instead of dowels or the mdf sticks i usually use.
worked out decent i might add too...
I did a small pod for the ponte cloth and......
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00022.jpg
a little bit of a larger one for the felt....
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00021.jpg
some pics of the pods stretched and ready for resin.. no staples since this was a quick project and i didn't rabbet the edges of the rings to staple too.. so i just CA glued the fabric into place.. i must say the white cloth was A LOT easier to glue to the ring THROUGH the cloth than the felt was.. due to the thickness obviously.. so there is one thing i liked about the white cloth.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00019.jpg
I didn't feel like getting resin on me at all since it was 2am.. so i quickly glued together a couple of mdf stands and just ca glued the stand directly to the fabric
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00030.jpg
ready for some late night resin at this point..
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00032.jpg
Felt after resin... much like fleece, the felt took a decent amount of resin to wet out fully and had to be worked into the fabric to properly absorb. completely felt like fleece in this respect.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00040.jpg
White Cloth(Ponte) after resin (Much much much much less resin i might add)
I only mixed up about 6 oz's of resin (if that) to do both of these pods and I have to say that the felt took just about all of it. I actually only dipped the brush in the resin to do the white pod 3 times for complete coverage.. Granted its a very small pod.. but this cloth is super absorbent and takes very very little resin to wet out. I only had to make sure the cloth and the rings where fully wet and bonded together.. and that only took 30 seconds and some stippling.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00039.jpg

[tr0y_audi0]

Next part

heres both pods curing.. I got impatient so i brought out the heat gun to convince the resin to cure (it was cool out and I used B440 which yields great pot life). plus i wanted to mix it properly and not over catalyze it which would make the resin excessively brittle and could affect the overall outcome of my little test and its results.. just enough heat was added to help jump start the exothermic reaction..
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00038.jpg

here are both pods cured and back on the bench after having the center and excess fabric cut out.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00041.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00045.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00049.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00046.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00047.jpg
I removed what I could of the cardboard that originally held the rings in place(was a bitch since I used CA glue and not staples) so that I could check the back side of the fabrics and how the resin absorbed into them both.
I can definitely say that both wet out good and were completely hard inside and out.. unlike with fleece where sometimes you can have soft spots since the material is so dense and absorbs so much resin. I can also say that the felt was definitely stiffer.. this due to the fact that its a thicker material than the white ponte cloth and can absorb a lot more resin.
Also, the felt was notably rougher to the touch like cured fleece and trunk liner due to the fuzzy texture. The White cloth while by no means smooth, is far less rough after curing and you could easily get away will applying fiberglass cloth or mat right over without sanding it and not suffer for air bubbles the way you would if you were to apply fiberglass cloth or mat on the felt without sanding prior. (the same goes for fleece and trunk liner as well)

I decided to try lightly/quickly sanding a spot on each pod.. just to see how each material sanded after having cured.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00052.jpg
it was kind of hard to tell in the picture what the texture looked like after sanding so I hit both pods with a little SEMS guide coat before sanding again.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00059.jpg

i lightly sanded again after the guide coat and you can clearly see in this picture the results.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00069.jpg
the felt was very rough and sanded that way plus it has alot of little pits in it(again, just like fleece and trunk liner) that would likely cause little air bubbles all beneath the surface after applying chop mat.. not the end of the world.. but annoying to me in any case. The white Cloth on the other hand sanded with little effort and was completely smooth to the touch. despite the fact that you can see areas in the weave where the guide coat remained.. i can assure you that it was smooth to the touch in that area, and you could apply chop mat or cloth with no air bubbles(or very tiny bubbles if that,or a very negligible amount if any.:p )

lastly, one more pic.. this one of the cured fabric removed from the center of each pods ring.. i just happen to pick the cured felt ring up and was tinkering with it and noticed how easily it snapped when i applied a little pressure to it.. so naturally I grabbed the white cloth and tried this.. and to my surprise it would not snap.. i had to bend and attempt to tear at it.. and while it did bend it wouldn't snap, tear or break.. i believe this is due to the dense weave of the materi

[tr0y_audi0]

And then the finished
I could have gotten it to obviously.. but only wanted to exert as much force as i did with the thicker felt material to make it snap..
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/cloth%20test/DSC00070.jpg

so thats that.. I have to say.. the felt is okay.. i DO like it better than fleece as it does wet out better i felt.. but its very similar to fleece too(over absorbent resin eater, rough texture, rough sanding etc). However I dont like that the felt has no elasticity.. as far as stretching it goes.. its all give and no take.. it wont snap back to its previous position.. some may like that.. but i did not.. i found if you pull it to far one way (N to S lets say), you have to stretch it in the other direction(E to W) to remove the stretch marks.

But all in all, after this test and all the other materials I have used.. I definitely found a new material to use.. and thats the white cloth.. It has several pros that I feel some of the other materials lack.. mainly.. it absorbs very little resin.. its thicker than grill cloth(my previous favorite).. i like how it stretches but is firm and doesn't sag like other similar materials when pulled properly, and it sands very easily. Its also very smooth even without being sanded, and will provide a smooth surface to glass over. I will still use trunk liner on larger projects like sub enclosures that will be subject to internal sound pressure.. and may even use felt but for the most part.. I would say I have a new commodity in my fiberglass arsenal.

[DrJamesHouse]

Nice!

[tr0y_audi0]

More Tricks from the Masters
Tips given by Triple-X.

Props to him for teaching his methods.






Thats how you do it. Actually, the method your refering to its called "stippling", (like s tip ling not stypling):D, basically your using your brush in a poking like motion to aid the resin in soaking the mat , or whats called "wetting out".
A few things I have learned overtime.. NEVER OVER RESIN YOUR MAT.. use just enough to wet it out.
You can also use a brushing motion after it is all applied and wet out to help mend or join the edges and seams together better. This will help create a smoother more uniform surface. Also I usually take several pieces and dab some resin on to hold them up, (see pic below). Then I wet out all the pieces and brush them over to smooth em out.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/1%2010%20box%20simple/1TenBoxSimple077.jpg

The premium layup resin from USC wets out great so a little dab in the center of each piece and they stay up fine till I finish em off.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jgf276/1%2010%20box%20simple/1TenBoxSimple067.jpg

Now see how smooth the glass looks? I got that by brushing it lightly to smooth it out after applying it. Keep in mind you have to do this with just alittle resin on your brush or you will over saturate the chop mat. You also might lightly disturb the pieces, (they will move a little and begin to come up), just brush them back down smoother. Just experiment with it. With good mat, resin, some patience and mixing small batches of resin at a time, this can be easily achieved.

Lastly, you can use fiberglass cloth or stiched mat. It is less messy, but it doesn't have close to the same strength as chop mat does unless 2 to 3 times more layers are applied. If using this method over the chop mat, be sure to variate the direction of the stiching with each layer. Stiched mat is only bi-directional , meaning it's stitched together up and across. So it's strength lies on two ways , where as mat has strands which in turn equal strength in every direction. So when using cloth, apply your layers diagonally to achieve good strength.




What you said was on the money. And in addition to that, the resin that alot of you guys are using is bondo brand resin which has a high wax content and usually has inconsistant cure times. So what happens is you apply a layer or two, your already caking on the resin which is comprimising the strngth to begin with, and then the resin starts to gel on you and have to stop there. Some will actually think, 'Oh no, I gotta hurry and get this resin on and not waste it.' Then end up cakin on more resin, except now it's clumpy and ruins your somewhat smooth surface. But aside from that. My point was once your first layer or two cure, now your left with a layer or two of glass with a nice layer of waxy resin that really needs to be sanded before the next layers of fiberglass can and/or should be applied. Waxy resin can be a bitch to sand too.
When layed up correctly, fiberglass chopped strand mat with just enough resin applied leaves somewhat or a coarse but level surface behind. You can feel the texture of the cured fiberglass strands and this allow something for the next consecutive layers to grab onto, while also allowing for maximum strength to be accomplished.





Dane, I use good quality mat and resin. For instance, at the stage you see in the pic where it looks really smooth and you can see the hairs and texture, I lay more fiberglass and mat right on top without sanding it. That's the point actually. Since the texture is there and I use non or low wax resin and I dont cake it up thick, I can glass right on top of my cured previous layers. And then I dont have to add alot of filler on top.
But my method is several layers of chopmat until I achieve my desired thickness, then I duraglass the entire thing. Grind it down to fairly smooth, (which is a piece of cake if the layers of glass layed were at least fairly smooth and level). Then when that's done I spread Rage over it.
If it's really level, I will add resin to the Rage to thin it out, so it can be poured on and will self level. If not, then I spread it and green stage sand it, (sanding as soon as it begins to cure).

At the point in the picture, your seeing 2 layers resined and cured. At that point no sanding had been done. Actually i take that back. When I stretched the trunk liner and resined it, I grinded the rough resined trunk liner down to prep the surface for chop mat.






The ONLY way to get fiberglass chop strand mat to conform to curves is to use THIN MAT. I use 3/4 oz mat ONLY for everything I do. I use to use 2oz, (still have some), and some 1.5oz. But I found it easier to lay 2 pieces of 3/4 oz on top of one another to obtain a 1.5oz piece, than to try and get a 1.5 oz or 2 oz piece to conform to a shape. Also I lay it in smaller pieces because it's much harder to lay in large pieces, especially when using thick mat like 1.5 and 2.0 oz. It will poke and pop up in areas when the bends and shapes have trouble conforming. Then you have to apply excess resin to try and get it to sit back down. And like I metioned above, to mush reisn is not good.
I mean everyone has their own way, but I HIGHLY recommend you try it my way. Compare it to whatever else you have read or learned and see what works best for you. You might like your way better. But until you have experience doing it different ways, you can't possibly know or decide what works best.
If it were me, I would take that 2 oz mat and tear or split it into two or three sheets to make thinner mat. Like seperating two sheets of paper. I have done that many times, and it works. But the only thing I don't like is that it makes a mess with hairs everywhere. I recommend you cut and tear all your mat outside.

[tr0y_audi0]

I guess I will add my door pods aswell..

Ok I start my tape'n the door after the Dynamay/Second Skin has been added
I then Glass the shape of the door,
I used a marker to show the shape I wanted So I can cut it to that shape later, I Used 3/4" MDF for my ring but plan on doing them from 1/4" Aluminum later this year..
I then glass the ring to the door skin,
I used My Second Skin to seal the pod after I mounted it..
Im adding some closedcell foam to the door panel & the speaker ring to seal the cone to the door, this is so more of the energy of the speaker is going into the cab of the car insted of the inside of the door..
The Door Pods
http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/7/web/2755000-2755999/2755849_186_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/7/web/2755000-2755999/2755849_191_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/7/web/2755000-2755999/2755849_192_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/7/web/2755000-2755999/2755849_231_full.jpg