Ascendant Audio Poly 6.5" mid

[npdang]

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/DSC00323.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/DSC00324.JPG

For $35 this is a beautiful, well constructed mid. Cast frame, aluminum chassis, copper sleeve, and curvilinear poly cone. There's also some nice venting under the spider and a split coil design.

Frequency response is a bit rough up top, and Imho not the best example of a poly cone.

Frequency response:
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/fr.JPG

Frequency response 10db scale:
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/fr10db.JPG

Perfect spec for IB use in a car door and good efficiency.

Impedance and t/s parameters:
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/impedance.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/ts.JPG

Very nice BL curve. Symmetric and centered. CMS curve is symmetric, but quite a bit off centered. As shown below, distortion is mostly suspension related. Le distortion is quite low, well under the typical 10% contribution.

Xmax is about 9mm one way. Excellent results for a $35 driver. Suspension appears to lock up hard at about ~20mm p-p.

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/bl.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/cms.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/le.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/dist.JPG

Distortion results at 4Vrms:

http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/60hzdist.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/80hzdist.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/200hzdist.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/800hzdist.JPG
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/aapoly7/3khzdist.JPG

Good to excellent results all around. I'm pleased to say that this driver is also above average noise wise when driven hard. Quite a bargain.

I only had a few hours to listen and compare, so take it fwiw. I used the Alpine F#1 disc. Vocals and instruments tended to be soft and hazy, but definitely not muddy or overly heavy. The midrange was very similar to the max acoustics mids, but not as open sounding I felt as Dynaudio although close enough. Detail was also not up to par with the Dayton reference which are within the same price range, however some may prefer it's more laid back and forgiving nature. Bass I felt was more noticeably controlled and accurate than the Dayton 7" or the Dyn mw170; this maybe a direct advantage of the split coil technology. All in all, an excellent driver and an unbeatable value. For some who are looking for an easy going mid with strong controlled bass on a budget, it will be the perfect choice.

[|Tch0rT|]

Thanks for the review! I can't wait to get these mids installed in my ride. Anyway what would you recommend for the useable frequency range (i.e. 63hz - 2500hz, etc)?

Thanks again,

Ryan

[MiniVanMan]

Whew!!! Good to hear. Hopefully this review will not cost Chad $35,000.

I've been a fan of AA since he came out, and have had nothing but fantastic things to say about him. Whatever your opinion of him though, he makes a really product. I guess it helps that I deal with him personally as he's in the Chicago suburbs as well.

[Tn_Audiophile]

So would this be an excellent midbass for between 50hz-200hz ?

J

[AJinFLA]

Thanks for the test NP. That looks like a very nice value.

cheers,

AJ

[cotdt]

it's not a 6.5", it's exactly a 7", I hate 7"s because the grills are so hard to find, while there are tons of nice grills for 6.5"s (165-170mm).

[Tn_Audiophile]

I am not acustomed to reading the above graphs... will this driver be a capable midbass in the range of 40hz-50hz to 80hz...

I am in need of some very strong midbass' to put into a 0.41ft3 sealed enclosure in my doors...

Thanks !
J

[npdang]

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1002

Personally I wouldn't use anything but a high throw 10 or 12 at 40hz.

[Tn_Audiophile]

Thanks npdang,

I was hoping they would be useful down to 50hz at least...

J

[jinx8402]

I am looking for a mid that can be run IB in doors that have a good strong midbass (down to 55-60hz) and can be crossed up high at 2500hz. How would this compare to the Seas CA18RLY? What would ideally be better for my situation?

[|Tch0rT|]

Npdang,

Do you think the AA Poly mid will match well with the BG Neo 3's?

Ryan

[WLDock]

I pondered that same question...I tried these with the Max Fi tweets and there seemed to be a hole in response using an 18dB/oct x-over at about 2.6KHz. Could have been the wrong crossover for these?

Although, after looking at the response chart, I see they are a little limited up top so maybe a lower crossover point would be better? 2KHz? I guess that would be the lowest one would want to run the BG Neo's? I plan to try them with the Neo's when I get them installed. Also, will try them with the Max Fi's again. Once I get the two-way sounding right(and I find the time), I will probably try to add a mid in the kicks and turn the Polys into midbasses. Maybe the DIYMA drivers will be out by then? ;)

THANKS DANG for testing these.

[300Z]

split coil technology
Got more info on that?

Thanks for the review. :)
Leo

[npdang]

WLDock: Checkout the thread in the main forum titled "fun with praxis". Even the Scan 4" had a pretty large gap ... completely unrelated to the driver.

300z: No clue that's just what I was told :)

[Tommythecat]

spilt coil is like reverse xbl^2. DW broke it down here: http://forum.carstereos.org/f-official-adire-audio-forum-48/t-difference-between-xbl-and-new-coil-technologies-56398

Although I really appreciate the break down, I still haven't seen Dan's theories backed up by results as far as one technology over another (efficiency, distortion, etc).

[300Z]

spilt coil is like reverse xbl^2. DW broke it down here: http://forum.carstereos.org/f-official-adire-audio-forum-48/t-difference-between-xbl-and-new-coil-technologies-56398

Although I really appreciate the break down, I still haven't seen Dan's theories backed up by results as far as one technology over another (efficiency, distortion, etc).
Thanks for the link...

Isn't that intersting...? ;)

Leo

[Lightninghoof]

I am looking into purchasing this driver but I have a question. How is it that Ascendant Audio claims Xmax of 11.5mm one-way and a FR graph that is flat to over 5kHz but this review shows otherwise? npdang states 9mm one-way and the suspension even locks up above 20mm p-p. The FR graph shows that the driver rolls off pretty hard above about 2.5kHz, which is a huge difference between AA's ultra flat and extended FR graph. What gives?

Also, npdang can you eleborate a bit on the real-world differences between the AA 6.5" mid and the Dayton Reference 7" 4-ohm mid? They are in the same price range and I am considering either of these drivers for my upcoming install. Thanks.

[300Z]

At least the difference isn't as big as the Extremis which is claimed to have an X-Max of 13mm and actually has 8mm (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=664) ... :p

Leo

[Derek]

At least the difference isn't as big as the Extremis which is claimed to have an X-Max of 13mm and actually has 8mm (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=664) ... :p

Leo


"Also, Klippel is not quite as good as Dumax at measuring driver's extremes. "


pretty sure mr. klippel measured the first extremis himself...which is where they got the 13mm measurement from....


and who knows....maybe the extremis would have even more on the dumax :)

[300Z]

Adire Extremis 6.8 - The XBL motor allows for a suprising amount of excursion. While it's rated at 13mm, it's effectively more like 8-10mm considering the smallish surround and spider from Zaph tests...

Npdang uses Klippel to test the drivers... Which I believe is a better/more realistic measurement method since it uses actual power applied to the driver instead of air pressure... ;)

Leo

[Derek]

from Zaph tests...

Npdang uses Klippel to test the drivers... Which I believe is a better/more realistic measurement method since it uses actual power applied to the driver instead of air pressure... ;)

Leo


just saying.....the guy who invented the machine...using it....got 13mm....:) pretty sure he did it at CES the first year the extremis was released....i guess i'd trust klippel more than zaph....:)

[300Z]

Also don't forget all the drivers mentioned here have been tested by the same machine and same person under the same circunstances... No variables... ;)

Leo

[300Z]

just saying.....the guy who invented the machine...using it....got 13mm....:) pretty sure he did it at CES the first year the extremis was released....i guess i'd trust klippel more than zaph....:)
Problem is, did he test an actual production model or a "prototype"? ;)
Just remember the drivers here have been tested under the same conditions... ;)

Leo

[Derek]

Also don't forget all the drivers mentioned here have been tested by the same machine and same person under the same circunstances... No variables... ;)

Leo


what you're not getting is.....i don't care.


:)


what i'm gathering from you is....klippel and wiggins are lying...because zaph and np got a lower number?

[Derek]

and quit using the wink smiley face.

[300Z]

what you're not getting is.....i don't care.

:)

what i'm gathering from you is....klippel and wiggins are lying...because zaph and np got a lower number?
Not calling any1 a liar...

I take an independent test over a manuf claim any day...

I could care less if you like it or not, I'm simple stating the facts...

Leo

[Derek]

Not calling any1 a liar...

I take an independent test over a manuf claim any day...

I could care less if you like it or not, I'm simple stating the facts...

Leo

is wolfgang klippel a manufacturer though?


and thanks for getting rid of the fake wink smiley faces :)


it could have been a prototype...that i do not know....

[Derek]

here's what i was looking for:

http://forum.carstereos.org/p-extremis-xmax-post590637/postcount5

[300Z]

I suppose that if the AA driver were tested in the same conditions as DW suggest it would have an even higher number then? :D

What you missing or not giving credit is the fact that the #'s we are using here were obtained by the same machine, same person using the same method.
The #'s are different yes, but don't forget what Jeff says... remove all the variables... :D

Leo

[cotdt]

I agree with 300Z that the fact that other drivers are measured under the same conditions by npdang lends npdang's measurements more useful. you wouldn't compare that 13mm figure to a Peerless XLS8 measurement under different conditions by a different company, so you can't compare different woofers this way making the entire system useless. but when it comes to measuring xmax, yes it is very difficult to get an exact number. however, you can just play 2Hz sine waves through them and measure the xmax yourself with a simple ruler. it works surprisingly well if you are meticulous.

[PlanetGranite]

Why is it that DIY testers can get accurate results for products from D-S-T, Seas, and Dayton, but these same people can't get accurate results for products from Adire? Is the audio community conspiring against Adire? Is there something super special about XBL^2 that is beyond the testing abilities of everyone?

Just wondering.......

[NaamanF]

Either that or it really sucks. Makes you think doesn't it. Adire fanboys...? So much drama from one company.

[cotdt]

yeah man, you can just look at the size of the extremis surrounds and think "you can get 13mm one-way from that little thing?"

[KingSVT]

Hey jinx, I'd go 3 way, but I think the peerless hds nomex 6.5" or exclusives 7" "MAY" handle 60hz?, but its alot to ask of one driver, would require a steep slope I think. the seas CB17RCY/P may work too? maybe some one has experence with these drivers? I think theres some reviews around of the peerless too.

[npdang]

AA uses a 10db scale FR plot which makes it more difficult to see variations in the response, which is why I also posted a 10db scale plot for comparison. Their specs are pretty spot on for this, as well as the t/s parameters.

As far as xmax, I would say it's fairly accurate for this driver. I received 4 samples and they were all within 9mm +/- 1mm at best. As someone else mentioned the suspension locks up hard at ~20mm. It's actually quite good if you think about it, since the driver is almost always operating within it's linear range.

@Derek - Dan is correct. It's very difficult to get accurate bl vs. x measurements when the suspension locks up well before the motor runs out of steam (or vice versa as with say Focal or AC where the coil actually leaves the gap). I ran the tests to the limits of the Klippel machine several times, although at the time I didn't think to run them for longer periods of time which I do now in such cases. Also, IIRC the impression I got from Klippel was that the laser was not much of an improvement for the large signal tests and was used rather for the linear parameter measurement.

[Thoraudio]

fwiw, Derek = not an Adire fanboy.

still very gay though.

[300Z]

LOL...

[drocpsu]

how deep is this driver?

[Excelsior]

Why is it that DIY testers can get accurate results for products from D-S-T, Seas, and Dayton, but these same people can't get accurate results for products from Adire? Is the audio community conspiring against Adire? Is there something super special about XBL^2 that is beyond the testing abilities of everyone?

Just wondering.......

No actually it's the exact opposite.

I doubt NpDang has any bias towards any company. What you see is actually the results.

Nothing is special or difficult to test about XBL2 or split coil. What you see is what you get with a klippel measurement. There is no possible way a speaker can be tested "wrong" unless parameters are inputed incorrectly, however, dumax can not actually be wrong as far as BL and CMS are concerned.

If you look at the AA 6.5" spider you will understand why CMS is in that shape and it's Xsus point is 7.5mm one way

Why Dan or Chad have not just paid the $100 fee for Dumax to test their 6.5" to end this discussion is beyond me.

[Excelsior]

is wolfgang klippel a manufacturer though?




I contacted klippel about BL vs. x accuracies and they did not seem to indicate the problems you stated.

He explained that if the Xsus is drastically lower than the BL 70% point that the BL graph possibly could be subject to odd graphing, however, he explained (the obvious point) that an xsus that much lower would make the driver unusable to the full BL 70% point anyway

what you actually get with a graph that say locks up at 15mm p2p (like the AA) is you get a speaker that's Fs has risen by 3 times... making it destroy SQ (look at the distortion products from CMS in Dang's graph) and add ridiculous amounts of distortion into the equation.

I encourage the smarter and brighter people here to model a 36mm N42 neo dome motor and figure out a way to get XBL2 or split coil to have a flat or even semi flat 13mm one way. I still have not come up with a way to do it with such a small magnet system (remember the extremis has a 1mm thick copper shorting ring as well to calculate in)

I'm not saying either of these companies are lying, but there is no reason to assume that a 300% CMS point way below the point of 70% bl is a good thing. Certainly arguing excursion about such a driver is not going to yield any productive discussion when the suspension is near the point of ripping the cloth into pieces.

[AJinFLA]

Feandil,

my guess is that PlanetG might have included some sarcasm there LOL.
It's clear that neither driver is useable out to their respective xmax "specs". But both manufacturer's know that xmax sells. When your target audience are bass junkies with limited technical knowledge, it's an excellent recipe for sales. I'm not bashing either company, that's just a fact. Both are units that have well above average xmax and will give users a bit more extra kick than driver X by larger manufacturers (Seas, DST, et al). For $35, the AA strikes me as a very nice value. Especially for bass duties. (Too bad its IMD Poly. I prefer rigidity for my mids).
For $99, the Adire might not be a good value, but will give extra oomph when a larger driver simply cannot be used.
Luckily for DIYers, there are folks like NP and Zaph to 2nd and 3rd opinions to manufacturer claims.
That said, WTF happened to your 22mm xmax 95db/W 6.5" midbass?

cheers,

AJ

p.s. with the uproar created over on DIYAudio, you'd have had some sales for sure bro! I mean, you had Andrew freakin Jones looking at those things LOL.
Andrew Jones :o :rolleyes: ;) :D

[Finleyville]

Whew!!! Good to hear. Hopefully this review will not cost Chad $35,000.

MiniVanMan,

Sorry so OT, but why would this cost Chad anything? I think I am missing some background drama...

[Excelsior]

That said, WTF happened to your 22mm xmax 95db/W 6.5" midbass?


Sensitivity was dropped significantly to 90db/w, the very first prototype was 93db/w not 95db/w (due mostly to the lack of low end in workable ported boxes). Samples are still being worked out (been through a few in the past 3 months). Sorry to say that the first prototype didn't meet everything we desired (mostly price point). However when you custom cast frames, custom inject advanced material domes and stamp custom large spiders, it takes time to get it right. Not to mention the other lines of product that's been tested and sampled over and over.

Patience is a virtue. Sarcasm is generally difficult to read, at least in some cases. :p

MiniVanMan,

Sorry so OT, but why would this cost Chad anything? I think I am missing some background drama...

Don't ask for it. It's not worth anyone's time. I think it's worth getting back to discussing the testing here.

Those questions being addressed, I will recess back into the shadows for another month until most of our lines are ready :D

[demon2091tb]

Hey Excelsor still eagerly awaiting your product drops as well. Intresting designs.

[AJinFLA]

What (Klippel?) measured/confirmed xmax can we expect? 90db/2.83v is by no means inefficient....if the (6.5-7") driver has half the previously claimed xmax, I'd be pleasantly suprised. I can't recall what cone material, but I'm sure its not going to be a ceramic/metal - in which case I would surely buy one.

cheers,

AJ

[DanWiggins]

Hi all, perhaps I can add some clarification...

1. I've spent quite a bit of time with Herr Dr. Klippel over the last 3-4 years, along with my design partner Dr. David Hyre, and we've discussed at length the issues with the Klippel measurement system. It has some significant issues in terms of measuring BL and Cms linearity if one is larger than the other. I believe NPDang will confirm this the case from his own testing.

2. Klippel has some significant issues with Le testing as well, in that it cannot accurately measure inductance versus excursion. Using Klippel to guide a design in terms of Le reduction will result in serious compromises. We're still talking with Klippel about this and trying to find a resolution for this.

3. DUMAX has some very significant problems, especially with smaller drivers and with noise immunity. DUMAX is good for larger, coarser measurements but simply cannot do fine-resolution measurements. DUMAX also does not provide power or dynamic results such as you can get from Klippel.

4. The parabolic shape of a split coil design is expected; simple FEA analyses may not indicate the problem, but a more detailed examination with tools that are not freely available will quickly point this out.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

[cotdt]

I've listened to these drivers for a while and here finally is my "subjective" review (technically since these are my observations, science considers it objective).

The first thing I noticed about this driver is how light it feels in my hand, thanks to its neodyium magnet. It's not really a 6.5" but a 7", since it's flange is 176 mm. It's deeper than the RS180 but not by much. I normally don't like poly mids due to their "blended" sound signiture, which kind of sounds muddy. However, the AA Poly 6.5" is not like other poly mids. Its midrange is very clear and neutral, and has high frequency extension. You can play it without a tweeter and it'll still sound good, although a bit dull. You can probably cross as high as 3kHz or more, though I would cross at around 2kHz. It's best to listen to these Poly 6.5's off axis, since there is a rising response in the upper midrange, though you could also just use an equalizer.

It's not quite as detailed-sounding as the Dayton RS180 as npdang mentioned, but it's more laid back and has a wider soundstage. Peerless Exclusive has better clarity midrange, but this driver has a warmer sound which I like. And it's far punchier midbass than the Peerless. The low bass on this driver is so much better than any other 7" I've tried, except for the Adire Extremis. But I don't really like the Extremis because those drivers sound like poly. Playing 10Hz sine waves through the AA Poly 6.5" in free air, I got around 18-20mm of total excursion before there was audible mechanical noise, so npdang's xmax figure for this driver seems very reasonable.

Unfortunately if you're going to mount this in a door, you can't really make use of the bass capability, since even with several layers of Raamat sealed airtight, my doors rattle like crazy without a lowpass. Which is a shame, because had it not rattled, you really won't need a sub. Below 40Hz isn't musical content but vibrations, and this woofer can go down cleanly to 30Hz so that's my reasoning. Those that play really loud should still get a sub, but I already got hearing damage at the volumes I listen to, so those of you who play even louder than me well I fear for your hearing.

This is definately one of my favorite mids, and I prefer it over the RS180 overall.

[03blueSI]

Sounds good. For the price of these mids I may just pick up a pair of these and a pair of the extremises and see which I like better and sell the other set.

[|Tch0rT|]

cotdt:

How much power were you running to the AA Poly's? I got at least 200 watts x 2 @ 4ohm to give them. That should make them slam when ever I get them installed.

Ryan

[cotdt]

cotdt:

How much power were you running to the AA Poly's? I got at least 200 watts x 2 @ 4ohm to give them. That should make them slam when ever I get them installed.

Ryan

I got 90 Watts per channel, but I didn't turn it all the way up or it's too loud.

[mitchyz250f]

Where can I purchase these? I didn't see the on Maisound or PE. How do they compare with the Adire for strickly midbase (100-200Hz or 100-300Hz)?

[Tommythecat]

ascendantaudio.com

[mitchyz250f]

I should have known.

[WLDock]

Where can I purchase these? I didn't see the on Maisound or PE. How do they compare with the Adire for strickly midbase (100-200Hz or 100-300Hz)?

I think AA may be out of stock right now and they are going through some changes over there.
As far as the Adire Extremis....It has more XMAX and a more powerful motor so it and seems to have more "Extreme" midbass. :)
Adire Audio Extremis 6.8 Review:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=664&highlight=Adire

Both will do midbass but the performance gets better at twice the cost:
Extremis - $78 each
6.5 Poly - $35 each

[Neil]

Well, I am growing impatient and excited at the same time. It sounds like the Poly's will be available in about two months time. In the meanwhile, here's some info from a conversation with Scott about the future plans with the popular Poly's.


When will Poly's be available again and will they be changed...
We will have more polys a little while after the subs are rolling again... Then we are adding a slightly modified version of the poly to the lineup as well. This one uses a 6.5" basket and will have provisions for a car audio grill. I would rather switch over to this new driver only (same basic driver but with a different basket)... but the HT crowd has grown to love (and I feel rightfully so) the current driver and its HT styled/sized basket... not to mention that I want more of them for personal products

Will the Polys still be the same price...
The standard polys will be a little more (its one of those things I hate to do... but itll be offset by solid price drops on other lines). Im changing the inductance rings from the last version (only changes inductance characteristics and not specs) and pricing for steel and parts has gone up since the initial order of polys was made close to 2 years ago. But, the price difference will be minimal... Yes they will still drop the same. There really wont be any changes made to them at all. I love the current ones and the only real changes to the car version will be cosmetic (more car oriented in size) and not performance.

Willing to discuss specifics on the original and new ring design, and how they compare? Can we expect a good drop in inductance, or are we talking about a shorting ring design to simply decrease flux modulation by steering eddy currents back into the gap?
The new ring is slightly thicker and the sleeve wraps over the top vs just a sleeve on the original. In having time to go back through with a new FEA program, the changes seemed to make some sense for this run of them. While it wont be magically amazingly different, it is a tweak that could be made and I felt should be. While it reduces inductance, it also evens the inductance swing, reducing distortion a little further. With most measurement systems, inductance is a lumped measurement, meaning that it averages in and out stroke inductance (which can vary wildly). All to often people add a pole cap as it is very easy to do and they measure a decrease in overall inductance... while there is a decrease overall, it can be completely contributed to the outstroke (which already has the lower side of the inductance swing). So while they see this decrease as a good thing, it actually just increased overall distortion due to making the in and out shift even greater.

Sounds very promising across the board and I think addresses some of the concerns mentioned in this thread. I'm curious to see how efficiency drops if more copper is getting added to the motor; of course, the Poly's efficiency gains are largely netted via the low moving mass, so I'm not expecting anything too big.

[Thumper26]

i'm running the AA polys in my car right now. Send me a PM if you're interested in taking them off of my hands.

[lyttleviet]

glad it was good bc i love AA.