Offer input for Design Experiment.

[Whiterabbit]

I love to mull over designs. I come up with (im not joking) dozens of design ideas before I'll even decide to do an experiment in my car to try one out. It is the sole reason I love this hobby so much, and anyone I think would benefit from my install ideas, I try to convince to use them.


At the end of the thread I'll summarize what im hoping for in a response, so for the lazies, skip to the bottom :blush:



Here is one commonly discussed design challenge. A bit of a bandwagon install idea lately, Though Ive seen no execution of it despite all the talk.

The Design Idea (nothing new here, guys!) is that of running 10" midrange drivers in doors to accompany horns in a 2 way soundstage.

Some of the things I have been considering have been mounting depth as door real estate is at a premium. Efficiency to match up to horns which might be important when other install constraints limit amp selection. I also considered percieved frequency response (not neccesarily "rated" frequency response); subwoofers simply will not do.

here are the choices I have selected for discussion:

B&C 10NW64 10" NEODYMIUM WOOFER
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-679

What I love about this driver is the efficiency, and it appears to be able to play super low without sacrificing the top end neccesary to match up to some horns. I DONT like the mounting depth, and that basket spells trouble for doorframe fittment!

SELENIUM 10PW3-SLF 10" DRIVER
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-332

Now, this one is interesting. its got a KILLER efficiency rating, but PE doesnt rate its low extension so well.....also the mounting depth is terrible, though I would suspect that the more tapered basket would make door modification easier than the B&C!

MOREL H10.1 10" HYBRID SERIES WOOFER
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-068

Three inches deep. That simply cant be beat! efficiency sucks though. Almost as much as the price. super low FS though. PE claims the range is just about as ideal as it can get for a driver to match up to horns, even after figuring some goof space for their claimed bottomend extension!

AUDAX HT240ZO 10" COATED PAPER WOOFER
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-605

middle of the road choice. kinda deep, in between efficiency, and what looks to be a great range.


I never took QTS into any of my thoughts for the design.


What I'm hoping for from the DIYMA community is participation in an evaluation of a driver or drivers for this particular application. what would make you lean one way or the other? actually picking one means nothing for this design discussion, its all just fun and games. (I think any would likely make a fine choice) Perhaps you think one or more would be entirely unsuitable? how about all of them? why? what factors would you look at and why? how do you think the application could affect one driver's elegibility more than others?

what are you thinking?

[Ianaconi]

This is kinda offtopic... Didn't know you could buy Selenium drivers in the USA.

It is a Brazilian brand. Here in Brazil people use their woofers/drivers and subwoofers only for SPL systems and also those systems that need to get very loud with the trunk open/etc. Not sure what is the term in English :)

[chad]

Remember the selenium and B&C are PA drivers. A 10" in PA land is a true midrange, usually coupled to a woofer playing rather high.

Chad

[Whiterabbit]

chad, thank you for bringing up a fantastic point, and I am hoping you can expand on this more. "true midrange" isnt good enough :)

if I have two drivers, both play from below 100Hz to above 1000Hz, both efficient, low xmax, etc, but one is labeled PA and the other home audio, are they really different?

what differences in speaker properties would you expect to see comparing a driver in "PA land" versus our other two drivers listed?

[chad]

Drivers intended for PA midrange use usually start at 12" and go to 6" Many 10's are seen. I usually use 12's and a large format horn. Anyway. When used as "mids" they are crossed over higher. I cross mine at about 250 but my bass horns play nicely that high.

These type of drivers usually have low distortion and high efficiency, the trade off is excursion hence low frequency output. If you are looking for a 10" driver to play down to, say, 50 cycles then I'd look elsewhere then pro stuff.

I am in no way discouraging the use of pro drivers in a car, I think it's novel. BUT I would not play them that low, I'd say no lower than 80-100 and that would be pushing it at high volumes. But given the transfer function in a car I think 80 would be just fine and would play DAMN loud down there. In a high power PA app no lower than 200 or you will burn them up trying to get the output up there.

In other words, just because it's larger diameter driver does not mean it will play lower, but it will play louder.

Chad

[Whiterabbit]

Im curious about that, because we see very low FS for these drivers, well below 80 Hz. That seems to belie the idea that these particular drivers are incapable of playing down low. agree?

[SQ_Bronco]

Put their TS parameters into winisd and see how they do...

FWIW I've used a couple of the older morel 8" designs (WR-8 and 59.22) and wouldn't recommend them over like 400hz or so. The midrange got really muddy even at that point. I can't imagine the new 10" is much better.

[Whiterabbit]

WR isnt the MW. different animal :)

Im curious though. does winISD model up how a speaker will do in a door? or are you suggesting it simply model it as a large sealed enclosure? how do you get winISD to rolloff on the top end? it only rolls off on the bottom end for me

[chad]

one is 50, one is 73.

The E-120's I use (JBL) for mids have an FS of 60 and work admirably as mids. I would never think to play them that low and expect them to even last thru a show. I took them down to the low 100's once and they sounded like shit. BUT they are semi horn loaded (no compression plug) and lose horn loading that low.

E120's were also used in stage monitors in standard vented boxes. They live a short life when subjected to too much low end. I usually use them on vocals and put a HPF about 80-100 just in case.

But again, in a car it will be a different story due to the fact that there is a transfer function involved. But they are also running IB and may suffer from that. If you plan to run those as hard in a car as I run mine in a venue I pity your hearing. My E-120's can see about 350-400W each (4 of them total in the "half rig" used most of the time) and I don't want to be that close when they do. During a normal show in a club I can easily hit 115-120dB at FOH if I want and the mids will probably only see 150-200W. Subs... A whole different story, my HF horns have the ability to see 125W at 16 Ohms (250W/CH at 8) and the signal lights never really fully illuminate. When they do (and I have) your eyes will feel like they are going to stop working, fall out, and roll across the floor.

I usually mix between 103 and 105 A weighted. Picky rooms get less but the same volume C weighted. And rowdy rooms more but I put sensaphonics plugs in to bring it down to the 103-105 area. It's a rock band, loud rock, most of the time I'm keeping up with the snare drum coming off of the stage.

Chad

[SQ_Bronco]

WR isnt the MW. different animal :)

Im curious though. does winISD model up how a speaker will do in a door? or are you suggesting it simply model it as a large sealed enclosure? how do you get winISD to rolloff on the top end? it only rolls off on the bottom end for me
TS parameters are only useful for bottom end response.

[300Z]

I agree with Chad with almost everything...
But taking into account the vehicle cabin gain and considering the internal volume of a car door I think a 10" driver would act more like it's in a larger sealed box and also considering the usual box size requirements for Pro Audio drivers tend to favor larger boxes, I think it would work fine, It may not have the very low end but it should have lots of impact. :D
Out of your listed choices I think the B&C is the best choice by a long shot.
The Morel and Audax has only half of the x-max of the B&C and the Selenium is a joke in comparison. The Efficiency on the Audax is actually 90db/w same as the Morel.
The B&C may need a little bit of EQ on the bottom end but I think it would work great.

Cheers

Leo

[chad]

I agree. It will have GREAT midbass. Like being hit with THE drumstick.

Also remember pro stuff is built for efficiency as a #1 goal, then power handling, then sound quality. There very well may be some bumps and valleys in the FR.

BUT OTOH I trust that you will have some VERY tunable EQ in there since you have horns, the horns will be tougher to tune than ANY 10" with some "bumps and valleys" :)

Chad