Making My Own Deadener

[SOHCKing03]

I have bought the rights to a sound deadening product. Once the final purchase has gone through I will be able to post pictures and some more info.

But how loyal are all of you to your sound deadening supplies?

Would some of you be willing to test my product for very cheap (I was given the estimate that you could deaden your entire car for probably under $300 but I cannnot verify that)?

I would charge VERY cheap for these first few purchasers with the hope that they right a nice review for me. And by "nice" I mean honest. If the product sucks, then say it sucks. But please be honest and give the product at least a few weeks before you review it.

Does this seem like a good investment for this place or are people here too loyal to their current deadeners (eDead, SecondSkin, RAAMmat, etc).

I am also in NO WAY trying to take business from RAAMmat. I know he is a great guy and I am doing this as a little side job... NOT to compete with others.

I am hoping that a few people would be willing to help spread my word and review my product. I also want to do this for my friends and the teens around my area.

So would a couple people be willing to do some reviews in a few weeks and spread my word. Also, what do people think of this?

-Brad

[pontiacbird]

well, we'd first need to know some details of your product....:)

what do you think would make your product different from the competition?

i think rudeboy would be the guy you should talk to

[mike_d_us_amp]

I have tried a few different deadeners and would like to try your out. I just bought a 2007 caliber that im getting ready to take apart and see what i can do. I also work for a major chain store and my word counts so I would also be able to help promote your product. Also I like supporting small business people as I am one myself and found a product to keep your car from getting scratched my satellite radio antennaes. keep in touch.

[rannalf]

I would be willing to test if you had scientific specs such as substrate and backing composition and performance data, etc. I might be willing to put some Car audio specific performance data together if you don't have it available from the manufacturer.

Keep in mind that I will be paying for RAAMat for my car regardless. Just because I think Rick deserves my business for the great product and customer service he provides, not to mention his dedication to the community. You have to understand that your product WILL be competing, even if you don't want to hurt anyone else's business (and I really believe you don't).

At any rate, if I tested the product(s), it would be blind with someone else in my house holding the key to which one is which until it was all over and published. Hope this helps.

[bassfromspace]

Honestly dude, if you're not bringing something new or an improvement to the market then you may be throwing money away.

[unpredictableacts]

I do believe in Ricks Raamat and it is very proven over and over.....plus he is so SEXY.....but I would be down if the price is right on a small order.....

[ArcL100]

I am the last person to e-love someone, but honestly, Rick's customer serive plus RAAMmat & Ensolite is da bomb diggity. Can't imagine using anything else.

-aaron

[dragonrage]

Depending on specs, I might be willing. And $300 may or may not be cheap depending on what you get for that $300.

[Relax]

I happen to be at the stage of purchasing deadening for my vehicle. If you give me some info on the product (once you can give it out) I would like to help you out.

[robbyho]

I've got secondskin in my two front doors and my rear hatch, but still need to do some more in my rear doors, floor, and roof. I wouldn't use an untested product on my roof, but I'd consider using it in my rear doors and floor if the price were right. Keep us updated.

Rob

[unpredictableacts]

I happen to be at the stage of purchasing deadening for my vehicle. If you give me some info on the product (once you can give it out) I would like to help you out.

I to am looking to do some on my hatch, I did how ever just finish up a 350z which I used raammat and it made a huge difference........so let me know....

[Relax]

Yeah- right now I am thinking RAAMMat or ED stuff. I am mainly focused on value - price for performance ratio.

[SOHCKing03]

Whoa, that's a lot of replies...

well here is a comparative pic between my product (left) and Second Skin (I believe)...

http://threads.rebelscum.com/photogallery/data//840/medium/P1010020.JPG

It is much thicker than most deadeners, which could be good or bad depending on application.

I am going away this weekend but will be able to make final purchases early next week. Then I can start doing pre-orders in just a few weeks (once school starts easing up). I can start making much more of it during the summer because school won't conflict. But if school gets too hectic, I'll do some ordering and then assemble the first kits right when summer starts.

I'll give out more info as things unfold.

-Brad

[dragonrage]

Looks like a small layer of deadener plus some low density...stuff...on top of it. Looks like it'll hold water, too.

[unpredictableacts]

Looks like a small layer of deadener plus some low density...stuff...on top of it. Looks like it'll hold water, too. like a sponge...I think I ll just stick with whats proven....raamaudio

[Rudeboy]

Hard to tell from the pictures, but I share the previously expressed concerns about the composition of the low density stuff. It's also going to make it tough to layer, which is almost always needed. You are right to be concerned about the thickness.

I'll be happy to look at it if you want to send a sample. 3 7"x7" squares are all I need.

I don't mean to question your motives, but be aware that there are far too many bad actors in this market. People willing to claim anything to move inferior products. Asphalt flashing tape, bubble wrap insulation, all kinds of things have been repurposed as the next great thing. Unless you can provided solid data about composition, durability, acoustic loss factor, shearing forces at the constraining layer - does your stuff have a constraining layer in contact with the adhesive? - you are going to have a tough time of it, and should.

Have you considered liability issues? Selling products that permanently alter the vehicle can be risky, especially if it is being used in a different way than the manufacturer intended.

I'm all for innovation and quality. If this stuff is the result of top notch, application specific R&D, then go for it. If not, ...

[Preacher]

I love to hear about new products and great value items turn my head. I've got Raammat waiting to go in my wife's matrix. My Camry has improperly deadened doors. I'd like to deaden that car, but I'm not going to spend a dime on anything that cannot be removed with 240,000 miles on the OD.

Your product looks like it may be a nice addition to Raamat in trunks and on interior floors (maybe), but you'll find most people apprehensive to put that in their doors.

I spent a few hours scouring the net for better value than raammat/ensolite, and didn't get much. You can beat his prices by a couple of bucks here and there, but none to make it worth the search. Plus you get eaten ordering from multiple locations and shipping costs. I'd rather spend my extra $7.43 keeping a great resource in business and secure the great value; Rick has great customer service.

[02bluesuperroo]

Hoping it's at least butyl based?

[internecine]

nope, i would not buy your stuff as long as raamat is around.

[89grand]

nope, i would not buy your stuff as long as raamat is around.


That's a bold statement. You wouldn't even buy his product if was proven to be better AND cheaper?:o That's unlikely, but if it was, it'd be foolish NOT to buy it.

[internecine]

yes it is a bold statement. i think this is what the op was looking for. i like raamat, it works, its cheap, i get ensolite as well. his product looks like a 2 in one thing. i wont buy it.

[SOHCKing03]

well I respect that. I will have all technically information as soon as I can.

Thanks for all the replies/support.

-Brad

[chad]

I would be interested in trying some out as now I have NO deadning in my car. I really only plan to so the doors and spot treats with leftover material. Soooooo, it would be a nice test bed since I NEED it and would not have to peel anything off. Let me know.

Chad

[Relax]

If the spongy looking stuff is heavy and the normal looking deadener part is Butyl based and the adhesive is plenty strong in higher temps- your product could be killer. Especially if its cheap.

The main thing with deadening is strapping as much mass to the panel or object you want to deaden. If your product can do that more efficiently then others and stay on extremely well- like the higher performers in the deadening market- theres no reason it won't be a hit.

Head the warnings though- deadening is already a hyped and overpopulated market, jumping in with an inferior product hoping to make it big is not a good idea.

[Rudeboy]

The main thing with deadening is strapping as much mass to the panel or object you want to deaden.
The more I look at this stuff, the less likely I think it is that mass loading is key - it may or may not be where we are now, but it should not be where are trying to go. We know that a more massive panel will have a lower resonant frequency, so we theorize that an important function of sound deadening is moving RF out of our ability to hear it.

We also know that sound deadeners stiffen panels. Less flexibility and more mass mean more energy required to excite the panels. If these were the only relevant functions of sound deadeners, some sort of rigid curing adhesive loaded with the cheapest and heaviest filler we could find would be ideal. We do know that if we smeared some of this stuff on our panels, there would be some benefit.

There are other things going on, but it is difficult to quantify their role. The mass loading only theory applies to vibration damping and ignores the other ways sound deadening works. If we just focus on vibration damping, we know there are other mechanisms at work. Viscoelastic damping is real, but we don't know how real because of the overly exhuberant marketing claims and the expense of doing proper testing. There is a lot of scientific literature on the topic and from what I can gather, both constrained layer - aluminum foil clad adhesive mats and unconstrained - liquids and vinyl or Dynamat Original type mats are all able to convert significant amounts of vibrational energy into insignificant amounts of heat. It appears that the key factors are the density of the constraining layer, the thickness, viscosity and elasticity of the adhesive (or the product itself in the case of unconstrained systems). This is complicated stuff, but I believe that ultimately, the best sound deadeners will be those that optimize these characteristics for our specific application.

Vibration damping is not the only thing we want our sound deadening products to do. We also want them to block noise from intruding into the passenger compartment. We know that the most effective bariers are made of layers of materials with very different densities - Foam/Lead/Foam is the most obvious. There again, there are other factors to consider, but it is safe to say that sound has more trouble making its way through a complex system than it does any homogenous material, whether dense of light. This is part of the reason that heavy foil seems to be so much more effective than Mylar as a constraining layer material. Viscoelastic effect stronger, barrier effect stronger.

We are currently approaching things in a very unscientific manner. One layer didn't get the job done? Slap another one on. The only areas where these principles are being applied with any rigor is OEM treatments. It's worth their while to make the investment in developing optimal solutions. In time, we will be seeing lighter and more effective options for aftermarket use. It wasn't all that long ago that people were using concrete to sound deaden. A few years from now, the products we are currently using will probably seem just as whacky.

I mean no disrespect to Relax or anyone else proposing a simple model. I think things are much more complex and that we need to understand the complexity to make the best use of the materials currently available and to push for improvements.

[robbyho]

amen to that

[OldOneEye]

We are currently approaching things in a very unscientific manner. One layer didn't get the job done? Slap another one on. The only areas where these principles are being applied with any rigor is OEM treatments. It's worth their while to make the investment in developing optimal solutions. In time, we will be seeing lighter and more effective options for aftermarket use. It wasn't all that long ago that people were using concrete to sound deaden. A few years from now, the products we are currently using will probably seem just as whacky.

I mean no disrespect to Relax or anyone else proposing a simple model. I think things are much more complex and that we need to understand the complexity to make the best use of the materials currently available and to push for improvements.

Interesting you bring up the OEM side. The manufacturers worry about other things besides how quiet a car is. They worry about weight (more weight equals less gas mileage, something the feds are pretty picky about), and cost (again, every cent in material and labor costs gets paid by someone). How quiet a car is probably low on the priority for compact to medium size cars.

They probably have computers doing analysis we could never comprehend (why else would my car have a credit card size piece of damper in my C pillar, much too small to be random).

In many cases, OEM guys are reinventing the wheel. My car came with some Butyl-like product (the credit card six piece) and some of the newer cars have some sort of asphalt looking stuff too.

The products we use aren't as quaint as the application (using a bomb to kill a fly).

Juan

[Rudeboy]

Interesting you bring up the OEM side. The manufacturers worry about other things besides how quiet a car is. They worry about weight (more weight equals less gas mileage, something the feds are pretty picky about), and cost (again, every cent in material and labor costs gets paid by someone). How quiet a car is probably low on the priority for compact to medium size cars.

They probably have computers doing analysis we could never comprehend (why else would my car have a credit card size piece of damper in my C pillar, much too small to be random).

In many cases, OEM guys are reinventing the wheel. My car came with some Butyl-like product (the credit card six piece) and some of the newer cars have some sort of asphalt looking stuff too.

The products we use aren't as quaint as the application (using a bomb to kill a fly).

Juan

No doubt about it. I've spoken to a few guys who develop the materials and some who model the applications for everything from economy cars to aircraft and satelites. I don't even know what the symbols mean in the equations they throw around :)

That CC sized piece probably accomplishes as much as we can with 10X the material. The OEMs are EXTREMELY concerned with weight and cost. They also have production requirements to worry about. That asphalty looking stuff actually is applied as part of the painting process and has to be able to survive a bake cycle.

[ludlamtheory]

im down for a little bit.
can never use too much deadener.
even if its not all that great, ill lay the stuff down on the floor

[SOHCKing03]

Okay due to money issues I am unable to aquire FULL rights to this product but I am entitled to all the necessary information to build the product and have the right to sell it.

So to begin with I will purchase the needed information (which I will tomorrow) and after building the first set of materials I will send it out for testing.

From there I will examine test results and adjust my product accordingly.

It WILL be my product though, I have full rights to it. I just do not have exclusive rights to it meaning the seller may sell the information to someone else. However, my adjusts to the product will not be sold therefore keeping it an original product.

If you would like to purchase a small sheet for testing (obviously it will cost very little) then please PM me with how much you would like for testing and what type of testing you will perform.

Thanks for all the input/feedback. Keep it coming.

-Brad

[Whiterabbit]

Id say it looks like there is a constraining layer on top of the foam, and noone here will use it exclusively anyways.

So if the butyl/asphault, foam, constraining layer layup turns out to be very effective to block road noise but is open celled, one could easily apply it to a door, then cut some strips of standart matting and border the layup so that the foam is sealed inside deadener.

That should clear up anyone's concerns about whether or not its open or closed cell foam in there.

[SOHCKing03]

Once I get the build the first sheet of this I will hopefully make some changes. If it is open cell then I will integrate a material into the design to keep the product from absorbing water.

Any other concerns I should think about?

-Brad

[SOHCKing03]

Well as an update...

I have fully purchased the information and can begin making my first sets of AcouStick =]

Please PM me or reply here for what sizes you want and if you need additional information. The product will be sold with little to no profit for me to begin with (as I want these tests/reviews to be done).

Thanks for all the support so far.

-Brad