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Old 05-18-2016   #26
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mic10is View Post
I'll refer you to your own post and Eric's response.
Horns are intended to be listened to off axis. VERY Few cars have pulled off horns in the dash with any real success of the car actually sounding good.

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Well hopefully I'm one of the few. I'm doing it ! and how many of the ones that did try it point the horn streight up into the glass (YUK) that would be a trainwreck of arrival times imo. Not to mention all the other combfiltering problems that would be a issue as well. I'm not pointing them torwards the sky, that would shrink the stage to the car interior and cause so many bad problems. They will be firing straight forward like a underdash setup, and far back like your bmw was . Just up a little higher so the HF isn't buried into my legs.

I have been spending months playing with them on and off axis, preparing for this , in that thread Eric gave me some very key info as to understanding how it all works. Comparing what Eric said and what I have listened to I my own tests, I think I'll be successful. I will have a 4" PLD from either seat from head rest to motor. The horns will not at all be up close and in your face. The mounting is going to go straight forward and relitive to head position the horns will be about as high as your chest. So they will be relatively low , thus making them in-between off axis and off axis. At a distance of 44" driver and 49" passanger ( from driver seat) and 42" passanger and 47" driver (from passanger seat) I think it should do very very well. ( so wierd how un-symmetrical a car is, driver seat is more in middle of car and passanger seat is very close to passanger door panel, they definitely gave the driver more room)

The problem in my tests has been mouth termination at crossover. I can definitely hear the air break around 1k, subsequently where the horn size it self is at its absolute lowest point (minis) above 1k it's fine. I wasn't able to simulate this car and the termination ( obviously I haven't made the cuts yet) but if I keep the crossover above 1k it shouldn't be a issue. Although I'm banking that the windshield will help terminate the horn very well. The glass is flat and has no concave shape to it at all, that should help tremendously for combfiltering and such .

In my tests I really wanted to know at what point on the horn the energy is thrown out from the horn the strongest, I want to further test that so I can possibly get the correct Angle (if any) to the horn when I mount them. I think I'm just going to have to see how it works out when time comes. Based on what Eric has said, the strongest point should be in the area right at the opposite listeners head area. I used a yard stick and followed the shape of the horn right at the flare about 2" away from the edge of mouth, and it points to that spot in car. So, hopefully it is right. I also took my rta and put a 1.6k/3k/5k/ sine wave and measured spl as I slowly moved mic about 6" in front of mouth of horn and watched for where the highest spl was as I moved the mic from side to side in front of the horn. I also tryed some the same thing off axis slightly. I got a 6db gain on the sides of the horn compared to directly in front of it .

I think I'm going to have to worst case add some foam around the mouth of horn where it terminates . Just to get some of the energy calmed a bit. And have some foam paneling on the bottom 3" of the windshield all the way across. As well as some foam on the a pillars ,

So, yeah . I totally get what your saying. The horns ARE meant to be played off axis. And I agree , so I'm mounting them off axis, just not very far off axis, and definitely not below the dash.

If its dismal failure I will be the first to admit it and I'll simply change to a diffrent horn, like a 4"x4" jbl. Or a 10"x2" selinium, on the contrary I think it's going to work out very good. Eric's horns still toss energy to other side on axis, and they still sound good on axis. They just work remarkably well off axis. I just need to worry now about what to do with all that off axis energy that smashes into the windshield. I'm pretty sure a 10" foam pad should do the trick pretty good.

Why not just use a diffrent horn all together? One that is made to be on axis? Well that's a good question, I just can't find one the sounds as good as Eric's horn in a car on axis. I have about 10 different types of horns or waveguides. And IMHO, Eric's horns still paint a more realistic stage on axis as a selinium or a jbl or a peavy horn can.

The biggest problem with Eric's horns on axis is PLD and Eric even said it himself and I absolutely agree with him while heartily, PLD has to be low low to get it to work right on axis. In my Hyundai I had a 14"PLD, I had FIR processing and gobs of shelving eq on the right horn just to tame its output. The right horn was further away but louder than the driver side by 10db. And it was wierd, it normalized under 2khz, I had to do a shelving eq centered at 1600hz and bring down the right side so much to get it to sound correct. It worked , but the problem was the horns were too close to the listener and a artifact of it again was poor PLD.

Getting some distance between the listener and the horns allows the opposite energy to get to both ears in correct time so It can work the right way based on the horns shape. I think it's the ITD/IID stuff at play that makes them work so good but I'm not sure. I'm not a hearing expert, but I am a thinker.

So, I'm not sure if you were trying to reccomend I not do it , or were just warning me about there off axis inherent design, however I assure you it can work good. Definitely nothing I would recommend to someone to do, because these horns are not meant to be on axis, and again I'm not using them on axis. At least not completely.


Think about the space you listen in, think about it more as space rather a car interior , now use why you know about speaker behavior and think it out.

If a horn controls the pattern of the dispersion off axis a certian way that is desirable, who says you have to stick it under the dash? Well the manufacturer reccomends it yes, but why? Because that's the spot in a car interior that is off axis, what if it was mounted directly in front of you and the moth of the horn was pointing to the floor? Well , it would control the pattern the same as it would mounted under the dash right? Yes, that part dosent change , you would have to completely remove the dash all together for that to work, however if your just far enough off axis for the pattern control to work our beneficially and the source of the sound is in a desired location, why would it work? The only thing I can come up with is off axis reflection, that can be controlled in HF pretty easily with dampening.

By the end of it I may have a completely custom horn like some have done, but maybe not. Well see.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 05-19-2016 at 12:04 AM..
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Old 05-19-2016   #27
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

horns on top of the dash?

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Old 05-19-2016   #28
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mic10is View Post
Nice find, thank you! I haven't read that thread, however even not reading these responces tells me I have the right approach with the treatments and placement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Stevens View Post
If you can couple the horn with the windshield and then treat the top of the dash with proper sound absorption foam to prevent compound reflections it should work excellent.

Eric
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Stevens View Post
Poor PLD (path length difference) so it would only work for single seat and the dispersion pattern of the under dash horns that makes them work well in a reflective environment will only work mounted horizontal.

To sum up, wont work well at all.

Eric
Again, that truck had a setup much like my santafe did. Very close in proximity, can only get to sound really good in one seat with gobs of dsp .

I'm going to have a cream puff for PLD. At least I hope so

On pats thread you have been against upper dash mounting as well, which I agree with as well . I'm against it for 90% of cars that a underdash is better suited. My santafe underdash arrangement was horrible, nothing could get them to sound right. I sat too far upright and the underdash was too far forward meaning my legs were inches from underdash.

The FIt I can do underdash pretty good, I sit pretty low, I probably will try it before I go chopping things up, but I know I'll end up with the up top.
Call me crazy but I like it .

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-20-2016   #29
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Got most of the CLD installed. Just that alone made a huge difference, tomorrow I do closed cell foam , MLV, and thick padding . The stock padding I decided to leave in contrary to what SDS (sound deadener showdown) reccomends. I think they might want you to just use and buy more of there material, maybe some cars stock padding isn't good, the stock padding in the fit is very dense and thick. I kept it in just skipping the thick padding step in those areas. In fact the stock padding seems a bit better than the SDS stuff, whatever , it's in there.

Also got some wiring pulled to the back. Ran OFC speaker wire , three runs to the front. I used electrical tape around the runs with black loom on top of that. Just to match the factory runs . The Honda loom is more grey than black , but at least it's the same type of insulation.

On the rcas I taped and loomed all 4 runs in one bundle. Ran a remote and source ground wire as well.

The 0ga stinger OFC I did not use tape on, just black loom on top of it. I thought it was cleaner that way so went with it.


The spare tire well is very shallow, I was wanting to start fab on that and get some glass down. I think I'm going to take the car to a buddy that welds airplanes. I think he has some engineering expertise and want to know if he can build a metal cage that is like a strut brace bar but for under the car. The spare tire well under the car has structural frame beams that connect the main car beams together in the back. If I cut out the spare tire well to make it deeper , I think the structure will be compermised , so I'm going to have to weld some beams in/under the lowered spare tire well.

Joy, I wasn't expecting to have to do that, but I definitely want some kind of trunk left , and want to keep weight down. And I still want me triple configuration enclosure for the sub.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-20-2016   #30
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Quote:
Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Got most of the CLD installed. Just that alone made a huge difference, tomorrow I do closed cell foam , MLV, and thick padding . The stock padding I decided to leave in contrary to what SDS (sound deadener showdown) reccomends. I think they might want you to just use and buy more of there material, maybe some cars stock padding isn't good, the stock padding in the fit is very dense and thick. I kept it in just skipping the thick padding step in those areas. In fact the stock padding seems a bit better than the SDS stuff, whatever , it's in there.

Also got some wiring pulled to the back. Ran OFC speaker wire , three runs to the front. I used electrical tape around the runs with black loom on top of that. Just to match the factory runs . The Honda loom is more grey than black , but at least it's the same type of insulation.

On the rcas I taped and loomed all 4 runs in one bundle. Ran a remote and source ground wire as well.

The 0ga stinger OFC I did not use tape on, just black loom on top of it. I thought it was cleaner that way so went with it.


The spare tire well is very shallow, I was wanting to start fab on that and get some glass down. I think I'm going to take the car to a buddy that welds airplanes. I think he has some engineering expertise and want to know if he can build a metal cage that is like a strut brace bar but for under the car. The spare tire well under the car has structural frame beams that connect the main car beams together in the back. If I cut out the spare tire well to make it deeper , I think the structure will be compermised , so I'm going to have to weld some beams in/under the lowered spare tire well.

Joy, I wasn't expecting to have to do that, but I definitely want some kind of trunk left , and want to keep weight down. And I still want me triple configuration enclosure for the sub.
I had a hell of a time getting mlv to fit in my door. Eventually gave up and ripped it out when the door panel wouldnt fit on properly anymore. So be very careful and tedious about how you get it on there. The velcro stickies add thickness as well and after they are on for awhile. They dont like to come off.

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Old 05-20-2016   #31
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
I had a hell of a time getting mlv to fit in my door. Eventually gave up and ripped it out when the door panel wouldnt fit on properly anymore. So be very careful and tedious about how you get it on there. The velcro stickies add thickness as well and after they are on for awhile. They dont like to come off.

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dood you ain't kiddin, the ram I did ( 2015 Ram build log ) was a total horror to do. I spent the better part of a week on it ( the sound treatments) and have been dreading doing it in mine.

In fact the gent that owns the ram hook me up with all his left over SDS materials , totally enough to do my car. He's such a good dood , I'm so thankful for that.

But yeah, the fit doors are tiney and I'm not at all looking forward to doing it .
Being I'm not putting speakers in the doors tho , I think I'm going to use as much stuffing that will fit in there without the pannel pops coming un-snapped lol

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-20-2016   #32
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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dood you ain't kiddin, the ram I did ( 2015 Ram build log ) was a total horror to do. I spent the better part of a week on it and have been dreading doing it in mine.

In fact the gent that owns the ram hook me up with all his left over SDS materials , totally enough to do my car. He's such a good dood , I'm so thankful for that.

But yeah, the fit doors are tiney and I'm not at all looking forward to doing it .
Being I'm not putting speakers in the doors tho , I think I'm going to use as much stuffing that will fit in there without the pannel pops coming un-snapped lol
Id like to try filling my doors with expanding foam. I wonder how well that would block sound.
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Old 05-20-2016   #33
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Id like to try filling my doors with expanding foam. I wonder how well that would block sound.
Minus the Windows not being able to go up/down I bet it would work killer!

Ok I was kidding, I know what you meant

There are factory foam blocks in a lot of cars that feel just like dryed expansion foam.

:scratch head: I think your on to something

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

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Old 05-20-2016   #34
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Minus the Windows not being able to go up/down I bet it would work killer!

Ok I was kidding, I know what you meant

There are factory foam blocks in a lot of cars that feel just like dryer expansion foam.

:scratch head: I think your on to something
Its to stiffen the panel against the metal. I feel like the mlv method only works on specific cars. It has to be an all or nothing treatment too. Sound is like water. It can be loud through even a small hole.

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Old 05-20-2016   #35
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by Jscoyne2 View Post
Its to stiffen the panel against the metal. I feel like the mlv method only works on specific cars. It has to be an all or nothing treatment too. Sound is like water. It can be loud through even a small hole.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk
That's so true , I had a customer in a older f150 come back to the shop complaining that the engine seemed louder, she thought we cut a big hole in the firewall, after inspecting the truck, the factory unused grommet we poked the power wire through came un-seated somehow. So a 1" hole was now exposed to the inside of the car, right behind it was the exhaust manifold granted , but still , a flimsy thin plastic grommet kept SOOOOOOO much sound from coming in the car.

I was mystified that she was able to hear it because to me it seemed so minor, but she pointed the sound out and she was right.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-22-2016   #36
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Put the 270A monster in today. Worked out well
































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im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

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Old 05-25-2016   #37
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Starting my test placements today. Hooked up my handy dandy 12 yr old Kenwood amp I modded. Sick tiny little amp btw.

Put some very nice 4"/1" computer speakers in my desired locations and starting testing.

For where I want to put my midrange I have a PLD of 6". From 350hz-and up I don't need any TA to get a nicely centered image, under 350hz it's hard to tell. It's not totally clear and sorta muffled. I need my dash mat to show up and some treatments to really tell .

So far so good. It's going to work, I'm really hoping the 250-350hz range works out that could really smear the image for both seats if it's not done just right.

I've been on a anti-time alignment kick, it seems to really destroy stage width in a hurry and causes nothing but problems. I'm hoping to just use TA just between drivers on the same side and zero TA against drivers on opposite side.

Found the cars dip today also. Looks to be centered about 390hz. Hopefully I can work placement angles enough so cancelation from side to side is minimized. I know there won't me a whole lot I can do, but being at that frequency it won't matter a whole lot where the speaker is "aimed" it will matter in the speakers upper range. I'm going to have to try a few diffrent aiming spots to try to get the suck out reduced while maintaining proper pattern coverage throughout the drivers bandwidth. Something tells me I'm going to have to make a compermise.

I have about 45degrees total positioning adjustments to play with and still have the install look good and not behave something different from either seat.

Anyway. Getting excited to start the fab. Also not excited. It's going to be a crap load of work.

Does anyone know where I might get the braided loom? I really want to use that. I want red and black. I need 0ga , 10ga, and 16ga sizes. Or whatever . I want to do all my underhood and speaker runs with it.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-26-2016   #38
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Most everyone seems to use Furry Letter's store on eBay. Great prices, great selection and great service.

Wirecare.com and Parts Express also carry some, but not a wide variety.

Jay

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Old 05-26-2016   #39
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Most everyone seems to use Furry Letter's store on eBay. Great prices, great selection and great service.

Wirecare.com and Parts Express also carry some, but not a wide variety.

Jay
Thanks Jay. Just ordered some !

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-26-2016   #40
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Got the wheels today!! Woot woot






screen cap

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

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Old 05-28-2016   #41
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

got the civic si steering wheel buttons working today. I did the whole wheel and got aftermarket illuminated buttons. Used the paddle shifters as vol up/down. Had to re-wire the wheel a bit. All works and is good . Gotta love the SWIRC

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-28-2016   #42
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Put the 270A monster in today. Worked out well
Did you figure out how to disable the Honda ELD?

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There is a difference between overkill and bad. Your idea isn't overkill, it's bad.
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Old 05-28-2016   #43
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Did you figure out how to disable the Honda ELD?
Yeah, there's a few different ways to do it . I want to keep the pcm codes working, yet I want full power mode on demand.

So , after studying the ELD schematic on all data and other sources I have found a way to "trick" the ELD into going into high power mode with some resistors. And some basic wire tapping.

What I want to do is add a 2nd external voltage regulator to control the add on circuit. There's guys that have done the mod by use of a toggle switch, I want it to do it on its own.

I think I should be able to use the regulator and a tr7 to trigger the in/outs to the custom circut.

It's the only way I can think of to controlling it. If it dosent work I'll use a toggle switch .

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 05-31-2016   #44
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Nice progress! Si steering wheel. No wheels. Big alternator.. Dang son!

2008 Civic Si Sedan - Sony RSX-GS9, Helix DSP Pro-2 & Director, JL Audio XD1000/5v2 (2), Audiofrog GB10 & GB25, Stereo Integrity TM65, Acoustic Elegance SBP12 (2)
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Old 05-31-2016   #45
 
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Got the wheels today!! Woot woot




screen cap
I see you got dem 420 edition wheels...
I've been following your build and just had a question:
What are the pros and cons of horns in a car, from your experience?
Is it that they have better off-axis response and can be crossed lower, raising the sound stage, plus higher effciency? Why are some people against horns in a car?
Thanks!
And we need some shots of the wheels & steering wheel mounted
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Old 05-31-2016   #46
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by KrautNotRice View Post
I see you got dem 420 edition wheels...
I've been following your build and just had a question:
What are the pros and cons of horns in a car, from your experience?
Is it that they have better off-axis response and can be crossed lower, raising the sound stage, plus higher effciency? Why are some people against horns in a car?
Thanks!
And we need some shots of the wheels & steering wheel mounted
thanks for lookin and responding.
Yeah horns are kinda tricky to get to sound good. Only in the sence that they get very very loud with very very little distortion. So that leads a lot of first time horn users to over gain them. They are a bit tricky to eq as well and tune. But the benefits are well worth it.

They are very forward sounding. They really put the high end concert pa sound in a car very easily.

The only real cons about car horns other than tuning is horn honk, or higher order modes. Horn honk is when the mouth of the horn is not terminated correctly. A user might try to eq out the honk or barking sound to get them to sound good but at the expense of frequency response. Like 1.2k is a big problem for most horns. It's the band where the mouth of the horn/size reaches wavelength. The high pressure air from inside the mouth will break and become low pressure and will have a snapping sound. Properly mounting the horn under the dash (or where ever) extending the horn flare reduces honk dramatically. If one can't get good termination a higher crossover point is the only option. That way the high pressure to low pressure changes happens inside the horn and the flare on the horn acts like a round over somewhat.

HIgher order modes or HOM is where there's diffraction and reflection inside the horn. A frequency can bounce around inside the horn and basically get louder. It's like a harmonic side band that is too loud. If one try's to eq it than you are eqing down fundamentals so the system won't sound correct. Some sort of padding can be used to filter out HOMs. Foam is most popular and works very well. But a good mouth termination and proper mounting of the horns as a pair can minimize these problem.

This may sound intimidating but really it can be dealt with, I could give you more reasons why not to use a direct radiator.

The good thing about car horns is there off axis responce and pattern control. It's crazy how well they get sound to go upwards and place L/C/R information across the sound stage with articulate perfection for both sides of the car.

In my experience not every car works very very good with horns. About 75% of cars will work very well. The other 25% (just a wild guess) the seats are too forward and lower dash line is too low. Someone could make modifications in these kinds of cars to get them to work. These are typically a suv with a very tall dash and a seat that dosent go very far back and very large center consoles. Even in those cars good imaging can be achieved with a soundstage slightly below the top of the dash. Most cars tho sound stage is above the dash.

As far as pics go yeah ill post some pics of the wheel up tonight. That was such a fun mod to do. Nothing like getting a modification done in a hour and have it work flawlessly.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 05-31-2016 at 08:38 PM..
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Old 05-31-2016   #47
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Nice write-up, I didn't plan to use my ES before few months... Will be harder to wait!

Horny Froggy...
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Old 06-01-2016   #48
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Some pics of the wheel and some other goodies that showed up

One of three batteries came today , and of course the ugly but sound pleasing dash mat. Had to do "SQ-Fit" embroidered into it . Yeah I'm a nerd so what?!










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im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 06-01-2016 at 05:12 PM..
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Old 06-01-2016   #49
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Did some cutting today. Got the hole in the dash sized up for the horns.

Cut 10" of dash away, I just figured 10" Is roughly 1000hz and is the leinght of the horn mouth , so might as well have that much area in front of the horn.

I'm going to cut the rain tray/fire wall next and get the horn to sit flush up against it. The horn motors will be out side the car.

Also did some testing with some test speakers in that location. Images good in both seats. If I add 2" of TA it locks the center in, so it looks like I might have to play with that when comes time to tune. I'll either have one seat image good and the other image excellent, or have both image good. We'll have to see what happens.

The cool part is when I have zero TA the vocal image is just beyond the windshield and nicely center. I'm going to have to get used to listening this way it's so diffrent than the last car. My first reaction is start playing with TA to get the vocal center on the dash board. It's just center mid hood now.

It will also be intresting to see how the horn and midrange combo images together.
The more experiment with it it seems like I might be able to mount the midrange firing up torwards the windshield. I'll have better PLD doing that but I really don't want to fire a speaker into the glass. I want to use the glass as a wave guide not a reflector.

Hopefully I will cut the metal tomorrow or the next day. And get the horns in there home













im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-03-2016   #50
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

So I was only able to cut half the horn depth into fire wall. It's still sunk in. It still mates up windshield. The driver side had a dam wiper motor that made it so I could either cut the horn off by 2" or have it stick out 1". I have it stick out 1".

The cuts are done, now time to fab the a pillar Windows and the horn shroud. I'm going make a HUGE round over for the horns that mates it to windshield.

Will be fun!

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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