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Old 06-04-2016   #51
 
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
thanks for lookin and responding.
Yeah horns are kinda tricky to get to sound good. Only in the sence that they get very very loud with very very little distortion. So that leads a lot of first time horn users to over gain them. They are a bit tricky to eq as well and tune. But the benefits are well worth it.

They are very forward sounding. They really put the high end concert pa sound in a car very easily.

The only real cons about car horns other than tuning is horn honk, or higher order modes. Horn honk is when the mouth of the horn is not terminated correctly. A user might try to eq out the honk or barking sound to get them to sound good but at the expense of frequency response. Like 1.2k is a big problem for most horns. It's the band where the mouth of the horn/size reaches wavelength. The high pressure air from inside the mouth will break and become low pressure and will have a snapping sound. Properly mounting the horn under the dash (or where ever) extending the horn flare reduces honk dramatically. If one can't get good termination a higher crossover point is the only option. That way the high pressure to low pressure changes happens inside the horn and the flare on the horn acts like a round over somewhat.

HIgher order modes or HOM is where there's diffraction and reflection inside the horn. A frequency can bounce around inside the horn and basically get louder. It's like a harmonic side band that is too loud. If one try's to eq it than you are eqing down fundamentals so the system won't sound correct. Some sort of padding can be used to filter out HOMs. Foam is most popular and works very well. But a good mouth termination and proper mounting of the horns as a pair can minimize these problem.

This may sound intimidating but really it can be dealt with, I could give you more reasons why not to use a direct radiator.

The good thing about car horns is there off axis responce and pattern control. It's crazy how well they get sound to go upwards and place L/C/R information across the sound stage with articulate perfection for both sides of the car.

In my experience not every car works very very good with horns. About 75% of cars will work very well. The other 25% (just a wild guess) the seats are too forward and lower dash line is too low. Someone could make modifications in these kinds of cars to get them to work. These are typically a suv with a very tall dash and a seat that dosent go very far back and very large center consoles. Even in those cars good imaging can be achieved with a soundstage slightly below the top of the dash. Most cars tho sound stage is above the dash.

As far as pics go yeah ill post some pics of the wheel up tonight. That was such a fun mod to do. Nothing like getting a modification done in a hour and have it work flawlessly.
Thanks for taking the time to explain the pros & cons of horns in a car! I had no idea about any of that.
The dash mat stitching is a nice touch!
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Old 06-05-2016   #52
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Spent the whole day in the sun in fab. Massive sub burn .

Totally kinda bummed about my triple configuration sub box. My idea is not going to work.

It could work and I probably will do it at some point but the spare tire well is only 4" deep. I went to cut it out and realized there's some serious structural beams that go through it on the bottom of car.

I do t have a welder or a metal shop. So, I think I'm going to do the amps and batteries in spare tire well and do a regular sealed box.

On the good side of things my dash fab is going good. Got the horns Nicely tucked away into the cowl. My projected PLD of 4" turned out to be 5" after mounting them and measureing. Ill take it. The bad side of things the PLD where the mids will go will not be that low. I'm going to have to stick with some off axis a pillar mounting. If I go on axis (I can get 6"PLD but than the left side speaker blocks the edge of horn that's parrellel with left ear. I don't want to loose that direct sound so , I'll opt for slightly off axis and get 7-9" PLD. 9" on the close side of driver and 7" on the far side of driver:

I think it will still work pretty good in both seats as long as I aim them correctly. I've been testing with a few diffrent test speakers and got it to work. Nice center , good width. And for god sakes no time alignment.

I'm very worried that the custom work will block stuff , I'm been thinking very hard how I'm going to make it look good and sound correct.

The car is going to definitely have the look of a sound studio with all the sound absorbing paneling I'm installing In lower windshield and sides of dash area. It seems it's the only way I can get it to work right on both seats. It's just starting to look like too much foam. I'm going to have to make cuts to it and find where it makes a difference and where it dosent and than somehow integrate that into a decent looking install.

I'm definitely going to keep some very unexpected elements as a suprise for the end. Let's just say I ran a extra set of wires to the dash. And no I don't mean for a center channel.

It definitely has to be able to swap drivers easily. I love trying new speakers and sizes too much to be stuck with a install that has to use one set of drivers.

So far I would say I'm 70%aprx to my original ideas and 30% has changed from the 1st post.

I threw in the p99. I'm having some issues before I buy the x008. I just found out the optical output dosent have a volume control from the deck. That's really dumb.

I was thinking maybe get an old PAC swc module that does IR and send vol up/down buttons over a diffrent swc module to the 2x4hds . I have to make sure that will work before I do that tho. So I stick with the p99 for now until I get that all sorted out,

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-06-2016   #53
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Got the minidsp 2x4HDs installed.
The lower glove box houses 4 dsp's , 2in 4out. For a total of 16 dsp channels.

Yeah I'm a FIR snob I guess. Soon everyone will be doing it and it will be commonplace, the advantages are far too good (one you learn how to make a good set of filters )

I'm going to use two platforms to make my FIR filters. Filter hose and re-phase. Running 96k sample rate.

Anyway got them all installed and playing.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-06-2016   #54
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Glad I haven't ordered the other two FPS amps.
Might just stick with the setup I already have based solely on space.

This setup fits like a glove. I don't think I have the room for two more class AB amps.

I'm not 100% on this but maybe I can stack an amp underneath the board and have a couple up on top of it but than I would have to raise the floor.

If I keep this setup (which is a proven setup) it will fit as is , and the stock cover will go on and no one would be able to tell anything is even in the trunk. I kinda liking this idea.














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im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-06-2016   #55
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
Got the minidsp 2x4HDs installed.
The lower glove box houses 4 dsp's , 2in 4out. For a total of 16 dsp channels.

Yeah I'm a FIR snob I guess. Soon everyone will be doing it and it will be commonplace, the advantages are far too good (one you learn how to make a good set of filters )

I'm going to use two platforms to make my FIR filters. Filter hose and re-phase. Running 96k sample rate.

Anyway got them all installed and playing.
Wow, so you'll cascade 2 pairs?

Horny Froggy...
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Old 06-07-2016   #56
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Wow, so you'll cascade 2 pairs?
I'll Just use 1/2 of each one. The 2x4hd has 4096 taps available. 2048 for left and 2048 for right. With a 96k impulse response I will need at least 2048 taps per speaker to get the level of convoluteability (new word maybe?). Low amounts of taps can have pre ringing and other artifacts of a FIR filter that is undesirable. Although I've used the standard 1024 taps at 96k and had no ill effects, but for some of the filters I've been making it requires more taps. I'm doing linear phase crossovers as well as some all pass fir filters. And basicly making fir filters that add delay/phase changes to parts of a speakers bandwidth.

I've been playing with the 2x4hds enough and taught myself with the help of andy wehmeyer and Simon aka Hanatsu. And a few others. I think I've got pretty good at making fir filters. They sure do sound good at least so that must mean something. Still No expert , but I plan on becoming one that shit is fun to do !

So yeah, I just want to be able to have more taps so I got 4 seperate units.

Also , the p99 has 4way active and it's nice to keep and use the crossovers in the p99 however , I have been using LR crossovers so I won't use the 4way in the p99. Just use it as full range outputs .

I wouldn't cascade dsp's , going from d to a back to d back to a is enough punishment on the signal,

If I can get the volume sorted out I will go ahead and buy the x008 and use optical into the dsp's just for that reason.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 06-07-2016 at 09:09 PM..
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Old 06-09-2016   #57
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Got the wire braids today. What a pain in the ass to put on 16' leinghts. Looks super nice tho. I honestly don't care about this kind of install gear, but now that I have my first set it is pretty nice.

Just way too much work, split loom goes sooooooo much faster

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-09-2016   #58
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by oabeieo View Post
I'll Just use 1/2 of each one. The 2x4hd has 4096 taps available. 2048 for left and 2048 for right. With a 96k impulse response I will need at least 2048 taps per speaker to get the level of convoluteability (new word maybe?). Low amounts of taps can have pre ringing and other artifacts of a FIR filter that is undesirable. Although I've used the standard 1024 taps at 96k and had no ill effects, but for some of the filters I've been making it requires more taps. I'm doing linear phase crossovers as well as some all pass fir filters. And basicly making fir filters that add delay/phase changes to parts of a speakers bandwidth.

I've been playing with the 2x4hds enough and taught myself with the help of andy wehmeyer and Simon aka Hanatsu. And a few others. I think I've got pretty good at making fir filters. They sure do sound good at least so that must mean something. Still No expert , but I plan on becoming one that shit is fun to do !

So yeah, I just want to be able to have more taps so I got 4 seperate units.

Also , the p99 has 4way active and it's nice to keep and use the crossovers in the p99 however , I have been using LR crossovers so I won't use the 4way in the p99. Just use it as full range outputs .

I wouldn't cascade dsp's , going from d to a back to d back to a is enough punishment on the signal,

If I can get the volume sorted out I will go ahead and buy the x008 and use optical into the dsp's just for that reason.
Cool, I hope you'll document your future tuning process too .
Not too much of a pain to manage 4 devices separately? Or did you find a solution for plugging them all in the same time?

Horny Froggy...
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Old 06-10-2016   #59
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by Elgrosso View Post
Cool, I hope you'll document your future tuning process too .
Not too much of a pain to manage 4 devices separately? Or did you find a solution for plugging them all in the same time?
Manage them seperatly, lol yeah but the more complex it gets the more fun it is to stay on top of that t all.

I basicly have 4 diffrent USB cords that come out of glove box, there marked sub/low/mid/high

Yes I will definitely post up some measurements and such

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-11-2016   #60
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Do the minidsps have enough delay to correct for group delay everywhere?
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Old 06-11-2016   #61
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Do the minidsps have enough delay to correct for group delay everywhere?
More than enough. They come with 80ms analog delay and 22.5ms for a 2048tap fir filter @96k

One could buy just one unit in a 2way allocate 1842 taps on a sub box and 206 taps for a midbass (which is plenty using good appropriate impulse centering)

The 1536 tap could fix group delay from a ported box up to about 19ms. , as well as add a linear crossover and still have no ill effects to frequency response.

If one used an entire unit just for sub , you could get 4096 taps going and get group delay correction to almost 50ms .

That's pretty awesome , the most I could see someone needing is about 3000taps for sub. And under 1000 for everything else.

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-12-2016   #62
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Pic of three of the 4 minidsps . 4th one is in my house setup for now so I can play filter making.

I made a filter for the sub that sounds really really good, using 1748 taps
And it's only 8.8ms long. Just a Lin phase custom cosine shaped roll off . Roll off look like a bell shaped. Zero ripple nutall-Blackman windowing , energy centering . Amazing sounding bass . It really is night & day diffrent vs. standard crossovers.

The best way I can describe it is -' you know when you TA your midbass to the sub and you can TA a certain area that anchors the sub up front.? Well the sound is sorta like that, but better, because there's no TA. The midbass and sub are in perfect alignment in time with each other. Even with 48db slopes you can still hear the speaker half way through the first oactave of roll off. 1/2 oactave in sub range is dam near 30% of the bass. So about 30% of the bass is a massive train wreck of arrival times. With a simple fir filter none of that is an issue. I'm just so surprised this technology hasn't hit the mass market sooner. We've had 400mhz processing for quite some time now. But it's here now and it's not very difficult to get working really good. Granted it does take Some effort of fiddling with different programs and such, but it's fun.

Enough rambling, here's some pics of the minis. I think I'm going to move the minis to behind the glove box and have the usb cables go in the glove box. Not sure how I want to trim it out and make it permanent



im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-18-2016   #63
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Getting the new wheels and new tires put on now.

I hope they done scratch them or mess up wheel sensors . Will post pics tonite

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-18-2016   #64
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Got some pics the new wheels on. Had to hunt for the right tires. Very oddball size, overall I like the way it turns out. For 16s looks like I probably could of got away with 18s , but I'm glad I didn't , the 98hp motor would have had a bitch of a time trying to turn them.


Pretty good transformation from a basic fit to a sport fit.






im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-20-2016   #65
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Lookin good! Keep the pics coming!!

Hurst Challenger - McIntosh - Milbert - TRU - Stevens Audio - Rane - XS Power
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Old 06-20-2016   #66
 
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Keen to understand how you did the group delay with the miniDSP. Step by step?

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Old 06-21-2016   #67
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Nice looking Alternator! You might wanna change the way the ground lug is mounted to the negative post of the battery. Those Honda OE terminals are low torque strap like contacts. You can pretty much tighten them till start to stretch and touch. That means that your aftermarket lug will never really be solidly grounded since you can't really torque them down without destroying the terminals. And even if it does feel solid it could easily come loose over time from vibrations and the cable torquing it constantly. Add to that the face where the lug is butting up against isn't perfectly flat so the contact point is reduced.

Unfortunately the only way to get around the problem is to replace the terminal. I suggest removing and keeping the OE ground cable. That way you can put it back if you ever sell the car. Then using the thick cable as your new ground cable. Cut the lug off the battery end and put a terminal that supports that gauge. The other end of the cable is fine.

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Old 06-21-2016   #68
 
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

nice work m8 looking forward to more
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Old 06-21-2016   #69
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
Nice looking Alternator! You might wanna change the way the ground lug is mounted to the negative post of the battery. Those Honda OE terminals are low torque strap like contacts. You can pretty much tighten them till start to stretch and touch. That means that your aftermarket lug will never really be solidly grounded since you can't really torque them down without destroying the terminals. And even if it does feel solid it could easily come loose over time from vibrations and the cable torquing it constantly. Add to that the face where the lug is butting up against isn't perfectly flat so the contact point is reduced.

Unfortunately the only way to get around the problem is to replace the terminal. I suggest removing and keeping the OE ground cable. That way you can put it back if you ever sell the car. Then using the thick cable as your new ground cable. Cut the lug off the battery end and put a terminal that supports that gauge. The other end of the cable is fine.
Yeah thanks Dood
Actually I need to update the pics I added braided loom and got stinger brass 0ga ends for all the alt runs.

As far as battery post I have 2 Xs power xp750s going side by side where you see the stock battery , that way I can keep the factory battery terminals inONE battery and a bus bar to the other battery.

In that pic I had to do something temporary so I could drive that's why I did that for time being. I didn't want 270A going through the stock 10ga wire lol.


I just got the new battery's waiting for the posts to show up and will do the conversion

I'm also doing a plexi cover over both

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-21-2016   #70
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

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Originally Posted by lsm View Post
Lookin good! Keep the pics coming!!
Thank you! Oh yes can't wait for more time to working it

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Keen to understand how you did the group delay with the miniDSP. Step by step?

I will do a write up I promise

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-22-2016   #71
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Okay gang I made a SHORT video of the minidsp and rephase , it's 13min and I easily could have gone into a 2hr lecture, there's so so much more to it than what I put in the video, I will make a Ernest effort to do a actual write up on the product review page, with 6kifs and Work it just a time thing for me , I would love to make the contribution so I will do small bits and pieces of it over the next few weeks and I'll start a thread on that sub forum


I have had a few people ask me to show some basics so I made this video . I'll be happy to answer any questions


im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-22-2016   #72
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

^ sorry for horrible demonstration of making a filter , obviously if one was to spend a bit more time you could get a really nice filter created. That was just to show some basics lol


I'll build a sick set of filters and video it , I'll go through the entire process

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI

Last edited by oabeieo; 06-22-2016 at 09:46 PM..
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Old 06-22-2016   #73
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Here's another short video or making a filter for a compression driver.
Just a quick tho together, but just shows how easy it is to make a very unique shaped filter


https://youtu.be/FA-5FVzCvKg

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-26-2016   #74
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Got a lot of pms sent , I think I have responded everyone .

Got to wait another 45-60 days for the 8s to be made available.

Starting to think there not going to ever come. Must be patient, it's hard but I really want those 8s .

I wish so much there was a 4ohm or 2ohm HE mid bass in 3"-4"-5"-6"-8"-10" with shorting rings and copper caps and neo motors with lots of overhang and lower fs and midQ .
There's none! Kinda sad , I must be patient and wait, until than I will maybe do a different driver , I just have my heart set on those SAs

im so in love with my speakers I found a song I sing to them

https://youtu.be/VgU6LXY-AjI
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Old 06-26-2016   #75
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Default Re: 12 fit SQ 2 seat

Which 8s?
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