I never intended to write this but I have just had a very stern email from eBay (on behalf of Tru) so thought I would tell people the truth (I know it has been touched upon many times before) but in a bit more detail as I am sure I am one of the very few that know the whole story on this side of the pond.
Last night I put up a listing for my Zelos Full Tube, and in it I wrote something along the lines of: "Designed and built by the same designer of many of the Tru amplifiers, such as the copper and hammer series." Although 100% true, this apparently "violates their intellectual property rights" and "contains unlawful comparison to trademark owner's brand name."
So the truth behind Tru Technology:
TRU is owned by American born Korean (John Yi) and was introduced to Mr. Kim (Abyss International) for ODM proposal. Abyss saw a good opportunity to expand their business to this side of the world so accepted John's offer and made and sold them amplifiers under the "TRU Technology" brand name.
After a few years of this arrangement, TRU 'stole' the blue prints and took them to Chinese/Taiwanese factories to minimize his cost, as he then didn’t have to pay for the rights to the designs. I'm not sure how widely known it is but in hotter countries there was a huge amount of problems with the billet series of amplifiers as the power supply blue-prints were separate and John didn't get a hold of these. John is not an amplifier designer (he is a 'businessman') and they had great difficulty in making them work correctly. It wasn't until recently that the problems have been sorted.
Mr. Kim obviously terminated the contract (there wasn't one left anyway,) and went onto designing and releasing more series of amplifiers (there have been 3 or more series of amplifiers after the billets,) while Tru has stayed largely the same since the split (a part from the Steel series and various ‘upgrades’.)
Tru used to be attacked a lot for this (although they amazingly even deny ever having dealt with Abyss at all,) so decided to move the factory to America to make them ‘hand built in America,’ and try to totally differentiate themselves from any other company.
I am also not saying Abyss is a perfect company; in fact they have probably shut down in the last couple of months. They do not however steal designs, and constantly lie in order to attempt to keep things covered up. Abyss made a mistake by not properly fighting it with the authorities when it first happened, but Tru's actions have hurt the overall car audio relationships between Asia and overseas as a whole. On multiple occasions I have had people quote this occurence as reasons for them stuttering with deals with myself.
I never intended to write this but I have just had a very stern email from eBay (on behalf of Tru) so thought I would tell people the truth (I know it has been touched upon many times before) but in a bit more detail as I am sure I am one of the very few that know the whole story on this side of the pond.
Last night I put up a listing for my Zelos Full Tube, and in it I wrote something along the lines of: "Designed and built by the same designer of many of the Tru amplifiers, such as the copper and hammer series." Although 100% true, this apparently "violates their intellectual property rights" and "contains unlawful comparison to trademark owner's brand name."
So the truth behind Tru Technology:
TRU is owned by American born Korean (John Yi) and was introduced to Mr. Kim (Abyss International) for ODM proposal. Abyss saw a good opportunity to expand their business to this side of the world so accepted John's offer and made and sold them amplifiers under the "TRU Technology" brand name.
After a few years of this arrangement, TRU 'stole' the blue prints and took them to Chinese/Taiwanese factories to minimize his cost, as he then didn’t have to pay for the rights to the designs. I'm not sure how widely known it is but in hotter countries there was a huge amount of problems with the billet series of amplifiers as the power supply blue-prints were separate and John didn't get a hold of these. John is not an amplifier designer (he is a 'businessman') and they had great difficulty in making them work correctly. It wasn't until recently that the problems have been sorted.
Mr. Kim obviously terminated the contract (there wasn't one left anyway,) and went onto designing and releasing more series of amplifiers (there have been 3 or more series of amplifiers after the billets,) while Tru has stayed largely the same since the split (a part from the Steel series and various ‘upgrades’.)
Tru used to be attacked a lot for this (although they amazingly even deny ever having dealt with Abyss at all,) so decided to move the factory to America to make them ‘hand built in America,’ and try to totally differentiate themselves from any other company.
I am also not saying Abyss is a perfect company; in fact they have probably shut down in the last couple of months. They do not however steal designs, and constantly lie in order to attempt to keep things covered up. Abyss made a mistake by not properly fighting it with the authorities when it first happened, but Tru's actions have hurt the overall car audio relationships between Asia and overseas as a whole. On multiple occasions I have had people quote this occurence as reasons for them stuttering with deals with myself.
So, let me get this straight, you tried to sell your amp by using Tru as a reference, yet you have ethical issues now with Tru since they made you pull there name. So now you throw Tru under the bus, Give me a f'n break
2011 Range Rover Sport Supercharge
1996 Porsche 993TT
1965 Mustang FB Restomod & MV Agusta F4 750S
So, let me get this straight, you tried to sell your amp by using Tru as a reference, yet you have ethical issues now with Tru since they made you pull there name. So now you throw Tru under the bus, Give me a f'n break
I didn't say anything remotely harmful towards Tru in my listing.
All I said was that it was designed by the same person that designed some of the Tru amplifiers, such as the copper and the hammer series. I didn't mention that he didn't work for Tru or how Tru stole his designs or anything like that. I also didn't mention that it was an amplifier that could have been branded as a Tru amplifier (The Abyss series were the same as Tru, where as Zelos was higher end.)
Tell me how that warrants them contacting eBay, getting my listing taken down (I assume losing my listing fee?) and have a warning put against my account for selling something which 'violates intellectual property.'
I have tried to contact Tru today and all they reply is that Zelos never had any brand affiliation with Abyss/Zelos (we all know that is BS.) So I am in the wrong.
It's pathetic when they keep going on about this 100% design and made in America stuff when at least half of that is untrue (I don't know how much is made in America.) So yes I am pissed at them, and if they hadn't made this attack towards my stuff, when I did nothing wrong, then I wouldn't go on the offensive, but they have, So I am.
All the information that I wrote came straight from the top of Abyss (very few people on this side of the world will have heard it because the owner only speaks Korean,) and frankly it all fits in perfectly, where as the things that Tru say about the partnership (that there wasn't one) are obviously false as you can see the see Tru branded models of amplifiers that Abyss released years before.
I didn't say anything remotely harmful towards Tru in my listing.
All I said was that it was designed by the same person that designed some of the Tru amplifiers, such as the copper and the hammer series. I didn't mention that he didn't work for Tru or how Tru stole his designs or anything like that. I also didn't mention that it was an amplifier that could have been branded as a Tru amplifier (The Abyss series were the same as Tru, where as Zelos was higher end.)
Tell me how that warrants them contacting eBay, getting my listing taken down (I assume losing my listing fee?) and have a warning put against my account for selling something which 'violates intellectual property.'
I have tried to contact Tru today and all they reply is that Zelos never had any brand affiliation with Abyss/Zelos (we all know that is BS.) So I am in the wrong.
It's pathetic when they keep going on about this 100% design and made in America stuff when at least half of that is untrue (I don't know how much is made in America.) So yes I am pissed at them, and if they hadn't made this attack towards my stuff, when I did nothing wrong, then I wouldn't go on the offensive, but they have, So I am.
All the information that I wrote came straight from the top of Abyss (very few people on this side of the world will have heard it because the owner only speaks Korean,) and frankly it all fits in perfectly, where as the things that Tru say about the partnership (that there wasn't one) are obviously false as you can see the see Tru branded models of amplifiers that Abyss released years before.
my point is that when you thought you could use Tru as a reference to sell your own product you had no issue with them, they make you remove there name and now they are evil. give me a break
there are 2 sides to every story, how do you know that what you have been told is 100% true
2011 Range Rover Sport Supercharge
1996 Porsche 993TT
1965 Mustang FB Restomod & MV Agusta F4 750S
I am a bit confused here though. TRU flagged something and Ebay took it down since it violated THEIR IPR, but you're angry at TRU only ? Ebay created the rule and enforced it. TRU called it and Ebay did the job that They created to do. If TRU was somehow in the wrong here wouldn't Ebay deny the claim ?
Further, you take the word of a fellow that is at the 'Top of Abyss', but not one of the the top of TRU ? Boggling. I am not stating which you should listen to, perhaps neither. But why one over the other ? Especially from one that has really done nothing for years and was held up by a string that eventually broke as opposed to one that is still going.
Where are the claims that 'John created everything' ? Maybe you're onto the wrong John here. There was this guy ( Rest his soul) named Fairchild ...
I even personally and directly stated their WAS a former relationship. Again, the denial ?
You were also ok to USE someone elses name to help promote a sale, but upset when that person didn't like it ? Can I use you as a reference for a sale ? Wait, I wanna do it before you answer. Matter of fact, forget I actually asked. Kinda silly, dontcha think ?
I am a bit confused here though. TRU flagged something and Ebay took it down since it violated THEIR IPR, but you're angry at TRU only ? Ebay created the rule and enforced it. TRU called it and Ebay did the job that They created to do. If TRU was somehow in the wrong here wouldn't Ebay deny the claim ?
Further, you take the word of a fellow that is at the 'Top of Abyss', but not one of the the top of TRU ? Boggling. I am not stating which you should listen to, perhaps neither. But why one over the other ? Especially from one that has really done nothing for years and was held up by a string that eventually broke as opposed to one that is still going.
Where are the claims that 'John created everything' ? Maybe you're onto the wrong John here. There was this guy ( Rest his soul) named Fairchild ...
I even personally and directly stated their WAS a former relationship. Again, the denial ?
You were also ok to USE someone elses name to help promote a sale, but upset when that person didn't like it ? Can I use you as a reference for a sale ? Wait, I wanna do it before you answer. Matter of fact, forget I actually asked. Kinda silly, dontcha think ?
Why did Tru feel the need to flag my eBay add that had nothing to do with them. Was factual, and wasn't in anyway harming their business. eBay isn't going to look into a case like this, they give me a black mark and move on. "TRU Velocity Group, Inc (TRU Technology), a member of our Verified Rights Owner Program (VeRO)" said it was bad so they took it down as to "Comply with the law."
I don't believe Tru because they continue to deny any involvement with Abyss/Zelos ever (as proven by the e-mails I received today.) You may say they were involved, I don't know? But Tru themselves are saying they weren't. Why would they do this if they had nothing to hide? As things were obviously very sour between the two companies, why would this have been if Tru had bought (rather than stolen) the rights to build the amplifiers?
Saying that Abyss never moved on is untrue. After the split they made the Abyss CT series, the Abyss Mini AA and then at the end of 2010 they made the Abyss Nobella series (this is not including any of the special edition Zelos amplifiers.) That is a huge amount more than Tru has done? (what have they done? Line-drivers and steel series only?) The abyss series was out for about 6 months before the demise of the company (Julyish 2011) but they sold around 300 units (across the 4 models) which is pretty impressive!
Yes Abyss struggled through the recession but the actual demise was nothing to do with the company. The owner had family problems and closed the business (not my place to go into in any further detail.)
Why did Tru feel the need to flag my eBay add that had nothing to do with them. Was factual, and wasn't in anyway harming their business. eBay isn't going to look into a case like this, they give me a black mark and move on. "TRU Velocity Group, Inc (TRU Technology), a member of our Verified Rights Owner Program (VeRO)" said it was bad so they took it down as to "Comply with the law."
I don't believe Tru because they continue to deny any involvement with Abyss/Zelos ever (as proven by the e-mails I received today.) You may say they were involved, I don't know? But Tru themselves are saying they weren't. Why would they do this if they had nothing to hide? As things were obviously very sour between the two companies, why would this have been if Tru had bought (rather than stolen) the rights to build the amplifiers?
Saying that Abyss never moved on is untrue. After the split they made the Abyss CT series, the Abyss Mini AA and then at the end of 2010 they made the Abyss Nobella series (this is not including any of the special edition Zelos amplifiers.) That is a huge amount more than Tru has done? (what have they done? Line-drivers and steel series only?) The abyss series was out for about 6 months before the demise of the company (Julyish 2011) but they sold around 300 units (across the 4 models) which is pretty impressive!
Yes Abyss struggled through the recession but the actual demise was nothing to do with the company. The owner had family problems and closed the business (not my place to go into in any further detail.)
You used their name, it is enough. Whether fact or fiction it doesn't matter. Same applies if I use your name. I can use you as a reference and say great things about you, the truth though is that I do not know you at all. Wouldn't it be pretty shitty to do even if I was saying nice things ? Yes.
Again, Ebay sided with TRU making them Just as responsible for your anger, but it still seems solely focused on TRU.
Whether they deny or claim it, there was a relationship. YOU believe who you want, however I have seen some of the FACTS behind it first hand. Nothing I have stated here on this very forum was inaccurate in the least. However you can continue going about believing someone that you will never know/meet and has done more harm than good.
Perhaps their denial is simply due to wanting to remove ANY and ALL affiliation with that 'company'. Personally I don't care why they do. Still doesn't change the facts of what happened in the past. The bold claims of 'stealing' the Billet design from Abyss is just plain ludicrous though.
I will also mention that if you have the 'whole story' about the 'family problems' you might be singing a different tune or none at all just out of the ill feeling you get from what went down.
You used their name, it is enough. Whether fact or fiction it doesn't matter. Same applies if I use your name. I can use you as a reference and say great things about you, the truth though is that I do not know you at all. Wouldn't it be pretty shitty to do even if I was saying nice things ? Yes.
Again, Ebay sided with TRU making them Just as responsible for your anger, but it still seems solely focused on TRU.
Whether they deny or claim it, there was a relationship. YOU believe who you want, however I have seen some of the FACTS behind it first hand. Nothing I have stated here on this very forum was inaccurate in the least. However you can continue going about believing someone that you will never know/meet and has done more harm than good.
Perhaps their denial is simply due to wanting to remove ANY and ALL affiliation with that 'company'. Personally I don't care why they do. Still doesn't change the facts of what happened in the past. The bold claims of 'stealing' the Billet design from Abyss is just plain ludicrous though.
I will also mention that if you have the 'whole story' about the 'family problems' you might be singing a different tune or none at all just out of the ill feeling you get from what went down.
Why can't I use there name on eBay? If what I am saying is factual (and nobody is denying that) then there is no reason why i shouldn't say it. Whether using something else in comparison (e.g. a review where you can slate a company in anyway you want), or like I did, saying it was the same person behind so and so's amplifier. Take Conrad Johnson for an example of the same type of thing. Companies use their opposition in their advertising all the time, saying how they are directly better than their competition (I was actually talking to an ex-head marketer for (I think) pizza hut (college professor) about this earlier and she said there was nothing wrong with what I wrote.)
This is a car forum. I am not going to vent on here about eBay. And eBay's reason is obvious anyway (they are told by a registered company that I have stolen from them - it's a lot easier for them to just take it down then bother looking into it.)
You also know nothing about my relationship with Abyss. How do you know I don't know them (and what do you mean by they have done more harm than good?) For your info I have had many phone calls, and probably 100+ text messages/e-mails shared between myself and Abyss.
If there is a story why don't you say it? I have read stories on Tru ripping off Abyss many times, but never have I seen a proper one in defense of Tru. Only something a long the lines of 'it's not true.' What evidence is there?
I also don't understand your last paragraph? (In reality I see no reason why the strength/lack of strength of the two companies is anything to do with any of this?)
Why can't I use there name on eBay? If what I am saying is factual (and nobody is denying that) then there is no reason why i shouldn't say it. Whether using something else in comparison (e.g. a review where you can slate a company in anyway you want), or like I did, saying it was the same person behind so and so's amplifier. Take Conrad Johnson for an example of the same type of thing. Companies use their opposition in their advertising all the time, saying how they are directly better than their competition (I was actually talking to an ex-head marketer for (I think) pizza hut (college professor) about this earlier and she said there was nothing wrong with what I wrote.)
This is a car forum. I am not going to vent on here about eBay. And eBay's reason is obvious anyway (they are told by a registered company that I have stolen from them - it's a lot easier for them to just take it down then bother looking into it.)
You also know nothing about my relationship with Abyss. How do you know I don't know them (and what do you mean by they have done more harm than good?) For your info I have had many phone calls, and probably 100+ text messages/e-mails shared between myself and Abyss.
If there is a story why don't you say it? I have read stories on Tru ripping off Abyss many times, but never have I seen a proper one in defense of Tru. Only something a long the lines of 'it's not true.' What evidence is there?
I also don't understand your last paragraph? (In reality I see no reason why the strength/lack of strength of the two companies is anything to do with any of this?)
Firstly, I have absolutely no clue why you want to argue with me about the rules/laws of Ebays practice. I did not write them. There is a rule/law in place and it was violated. Not sure why you are unable to accept that yet. I have Zero invested into it.
You're right it IS a car audio forum. TRU sells car audio amps. Car audio has no involvement on Ebay though ? Really ? I think more of it is sold there in one single week than TRU ( any small company) sells in a decade. So how is it not relevant ?
You are right, I don't. However after all of those phone calls you seem quite content to believe a 'stranger' over anything else. You're asking for proof from one side, where is the proof from Abyss ? It does work both ways my friend. I have seen proof, but why believe me ? Continue on, as I already stated, believe what you will.
I am Not airing anyones laundry out here. "stories' as it is put can stay as exactly that. Not my place to put em out in public.
You see no reason why the strength/lack of strength has anything to do with it ? You are the one that brought it on with a 'ripped' off statement.
Firstly, I have absolutely no clue why you want to argue with me about the rules/laws of Ebays practice. I did not write them. There is a rule/law in place and it was violated. Not sure why you are unable to accept that yet. I have Zero invested into it.
You're right it IS a car audio forum. TRU sells car audio amps. Car audio has no involvement on Ebay though ? Really ? I think more of it is sold there in one single week than TRU ( any small company) sells in a decade. So how is it not relevant ?
You are right, I don't. However after all of those phone calls you seem quite content to believe a 'stranger' over anything else. You're asking for proof from one side, where is the proof from Abyss ? It does work both ways my friend. I have seen proof, but why believe me ? Continue on, as I already stated, believe what you will.
I am Not airing anyones laundry out here. "stories' as it is put can stay as exactly that. Not my place to put em out in public.
You see no reason why the strength/lack of strength has anything to do with it ? You are the one that brought it on with a 'ripped' off statement.
I really don't think you have followed anything I have said.
I'm not in any form affiliated with Abyss so there is no reason why I would of seen any documents or anything else that you may take as evidence. I am sure I could find pictures from before Tru was around (though you admit this,) of Abyss amplifiers of the same design, or maybe I could post on modifikasi and get them to give you further details.
I have given you 'my story' about how the ordeal went down (have heard the same from multiple people.) So why don't you reply with 'your story' and explain why things were so bitter after, and how they continued to use Abyss' designs? I have never heard anything beyond 'they went separate ways' from Tru's side. I have never heard a comment on how they continued producing the amplifiers after they split and why they went to another foreign factory first.
I would also be interested in hearing what you were shown.
I will send you my phone number and if you feel like it/have time you can phone me to go through this.
This was covered at great length over at ECA many many years ago! There was a connection between the two & thats all I can remember. I can tell you, you are not telling some of use members nothing we have not already heard. Especially those of us from the old ECA days.
As for your auction. Maybe I should go off on microsoft for having the same done to my auctions. A trade name/mark is an Intellectual property which requires permission to use in this country. Not because you may have used other band names makes it ok. It means you got lucky.
for me this is what i see......it's like Monster cable taking on all taking on all those businesses' just because they have the word Monster in their name. While we may feel this is not right, many courts have felt that they do have that right and have sided with them. So therefor you using "Tru" the name of the company is going against their rights. So with all said at the end of the day what happened may not be rigth in our eyes, but in theirs and the courts it is.
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Tru SB6 running ES ultra full body and (2) jbl w12gti
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From what I've heard they kinda stole LP's future designs (that never took place). John Fairchild was working with Jerri McCord (engineer for LP & kicker) for the legendary Cerwin Strokers. Thats when John Fairchild fell inlove (kinda) with LP's TO3 transistors and SQ, the 5002 and Cerwin Stroker were made around the same time and were made pretty much for eachother.
This is were it gets kinda sticky, and maybe someone else can shine some light, John Fairchild took or saw some "future" designs that LP had in-mind (the whole TO3's being mounted upside down so the transistors be located on top of the amp showing them off). LP never did it, dont know why, maybe cause they got beaten by TRU since they did it before LP could ever do it. But after John showed Yi the designs he took them and called them "his own".
Now dont take my side of the story, this is just what I've heard before. Wish I was there to see what really happened.
That being said, I never own any TRU items. Was close to buying a Hammer "John Fairchild" edition amp but seller backed out.
The fact that Tru blatantly lies about any affiliation with Abyss is, well...a bit shady...don't you guys think?
What're they hiding?
And what credibility is left when a company can't even be forthright about its own beginnings?
Sometimes you can't disclose things whether they are true or not... I have been in situations before where I had signed Non-Disclosure Agreements and couldn't discuss matters involving other companies, even thought doing so would have made me look better... Other people could have done so, but I myself personally couldn't. It's one thing to "have the inside track", but it's entirely another to know it and sign the dotted line stating you won't talk about it.
The bottom line for me is John Yi and John Fairchild (RIP) are both great guys who build the best amplifiers I've ever used. I could honestly care less about any behind the scenes drama, it doesn't make their amps perform any differently...
McIntosh - "Eric Stevens Era" ID - Milbert - TRU - PS8
Can somebody please explain to me HOW this is an IP violation?
Put another way, what is a better way to communicate the idea that the designer of one amplifier also designed another amplifier? I see all over this site, "FS: amp XYZ, designed by Stephen Mantz of Zed". Is that an IP violation? If so, why aren't the DIYMA mods removing all references to Mantz (and to Zed Audio corp)?
Does, "Brought to you from the same director who directed Star Wars..." violate IP law?
Only if the director doesn't want anyone to know he directed the first movie with Steven Spielberg then stole all his ideas and started making his own.
When I tried to sell my abyss tube-2. Tru had my auction pulled on basis of the picture alone. I never mentioned tru in the listing. Since the tube-2 and c7.2t looked the same TRU went to ebay saying it's a counterfit.
When I tried to sell my abyss tube-2. Tru had my auction pulled on basis of the picture alone. I never mentioned tru in the listing. Since the tube-2 and c7.2t looked the same TRU went to ebay saying it's a counterfit.
Wow!
My conversation with Tru curtailed with them continually saying that I had received misinformation because there has never been any ties with Abyss. So I copied much of my original post to them, and of course they stopped replying.
I'm planning to take this up with eBay but have been very busy recently.
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