why dont amp companies make amps that automatically adjust the output ?

[JAX]

What i was trying to say is why cant they make an amp that senses the voltage at the input and adjust the ouptut for what it is getting.

wouldnt that take all the guess work out of improperly setting the gains?

I have installed lots of stuff and I honestly will not say that by ear I have always set the gains right.

seems like this day and age they could make an amp that knew what the input voltage was and make the amp perfom to its max unclipped ouput.

smart amp I guess it would be called

[danssoslow]

Or better yet, through the many companies that make headunits and amplifiers, a system by which full voltage is always present between the headunit and the amp; and the volume is adjusted at the amplifier's output stage.

[07azhhr]

Originally Posted by danssoslow

Or better yet, through the many companies that make headunits and amplifiers, a system by which full voltage is always present between the headunit and the amp; and the volume is adjusted at the amplifier's output stage.

^^^^ this is the only way this vvvvv work since the HU's output voltage changes as the volumn is changed.

Originally Posted by JAX

What i was trying to say is why cant they make an amp that senses the voltage at the input and adjust the ouptut for what it is getting.

wouldnt that take all the guess work out of improperly setting the gains?

I have installed lots of stuff and I honestly will not say that by ear I have always set the gains right.

seems like this day and age they could make an amp that knew what the input voltage was and make the amp perfom to its max unclipped ouput.

smart amp I guess it would be called

Otherwise we would never get any more volumn. It would be full tilt or OFF lol.

[JAX]

Originally Posted by 07azhhr

^^^^ this is the only way this vvvvv work since the HU's output voltage changes as the volumn is changed.


Otherwise we would never get any more volumn. It would be full tilt or OFF lol.

makes sense


somehow couldnt amp know when the deck is putting out max output? maybe learn it somehow?

[07azhhr]

Originally Posted by JAX

makes sense


somehow couldnt amp know when the deck is putting out max output? maybe learn it somehow?

Sure it could but then it would need some kind of chip based processor to self learn and even then you would have to be involved by turning the deck up when prompted.

There are a few amps that have clipping indicators built in now. Some line drivers have it on both the inputs and the outputs to help with tuning. Perhaps those will be the baby steps to this. I actually wish they all had these clipping indicators both on the inputs and outputs.

[danssoslow]

Even if the amp could know the radio's max output voltage, the source material whould throw another wrench into the mix.

To simplify this whole deal, and keep it out of the realm of proprietary, how about the amplifiers provide the D/A conversion, keep the volume control at the amp's ouput stage, and all radios provide volume adjustment via a phone jack that runs straight to the amplifier. All processing anyone wishes to use stays in the digital domain, wiring would be simplified, and gain would no longer be an issue. Plus, volume would remain constant ( or predictable, if you'd rather) no matter the source or material.

I'm sure I've oversimplified this, but good idea?

[MarkZ]

Originally Posted by JAX

What i was trying to say is why cant they make an amp that senses the voltage at the input and adjust the ouptut for what it is getting.

wouldnt that take all the guess work out of improperly setting the gains?

I have installed lots of stuff and I honestly will not say that by ear I have always set the gains right.

seems like this day and age they could make an amp that knew what the input voltage was and make the amp perfom to its max unclipped ouput.

smart amp I guess it would be called

So, play a calibration tone (e.g. 0dB sine wave) and have the amp automatically calibrate its gain? Sure! That would work, and would be easy to implement. Amp manufacturers probably don't do this because they know it's a bad idea to calibrate to 0dB.

[t3sn4f2]

Anyone ever heard of a home A/V receiver? If you have, have you ever noticed the volume setting that they start to distort with most speakers and most music? Yeah around half of full. Why is that? Hmmmmm

[danssoslow]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Anyone ever heard of a home A/V receiver? If you have, have you ever noticed the volume setting that they start to distort with most speakers and most music? Yeah around half of full. Why is that? Hmmmmm

Don't know, never used anything beyond what the television came with as far as sound goes. Care to share? Something to do with dynamics?

[Victor_inox]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Anyone ever heard of a home A/V receiver? If you have, have you ever noticed the volume setting that they start to distort with most speakers and most music? Yeah around half of full. Why is that? Hmmmmm

walmart special HT in a box? sure. go try top of the line Denon, maranz or premier Elite- no distortion at 0 db db least `i can't hear any. Denon and harman kardon can be preset to start at any volume desired 0db or anything you want. I set mine starting at -25 ' I'm capable of adjusting my own volume what a big freaking deal?

[TrickyRicky]

I figure for it to sense the voltage of the HU, the HU would need to play a few seconds of sinewaves (either 100hz for sub duty or 1khz for upper duty) in order for it to detect the output voltage of the HU. And even after that music cannot be compared to sinewaves, so lets say if the amp is to adjust to the output every nano-second the fhz changes or output of the HU. So it would be pretty much worthless to do so.


But I know where you going on this Jax. It would be nice, especially for those that cannot set a gain in the first place, lol. For me it doesnt bother me that amps dont have the auto-sense.

[MarkZ]

If you don't know how to set gain, you have no business trying to install an audio system in the car with the expectation that it will sound better than stock.

[JAX]

Something I do think all amps should have and that's clip indicators.

Just a great tool when setting an amp as long as its accurate. I have had amps with that. Seems like it should be on all amps.

That would be fairly simple.

I do like the idea of a smart amp though.

Was just a thought. Lol.

[JAX]

Originally Posted by MarkZ

If you don't know how to set gain, you have no business trying to install an audio system in the car with the expectation that it will sound better than stock.

That's like saying if you can't set points on a car you shouldn't do a tune up but yet now there is no such thing as points in a car since the tech was there to eliminate the need.


To say people shouldn't install if they don't know how to set gain is silly since we all know there are plenty of people fucking up shit setting it wrong.

There is a need for improving how it's done.

Myself never broke anything by setting gain wrong. Doesn't mean I don't wish it was improved.

Without tools you are talking about setting things with your ears . The same ears that hear things differently with each person.

[MarkZ]

I'm not saying people shouldn't try. It's a DIY site, I'm a big fan of people DIYing. But most aftermarket installs sound like garbage, and if your goal is truly to improve the sound beyond what your stock system can provide, then you've got a LOOONG way to go if setting gains is presenting a difficulty.

If your goal is to have fun, take on a project, learn something, etc, I'm all for it.

By "you", I don't mean you, Jax.

[JAX]

Ok then

[TrickyRicky]

Originally Posted by JAX

Something I do think all amps should have and that's clip indicators.

Just a great tool when setting an amp as long as its accurate. I have had amps with that. Seems like it should be on all amps.

That would be fairly simple.

I do like the idea of a smart amp though.

Was just a thought. Lol.

Making clip indicators is pretty easy. Depends on how deeep you want to get into on the clip indicators (barely clipping, slightly clipping, clipping, clipping hard, okay you've been warn clipping). But its not worth the time and components for a simple on time use (or only checked once in a while)...you see where am going. Music is different, so while on song may be louder than the other it may clip slightly on that song, but not at all on the other, those that mean your going to adjust it on every song/genre?

[ChrisB]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when it comes to clipping, 12v manufacturers should implement Peavey's DDT circuit.

[JAX]

Originally Posted by TrickyRicky

Making clip indicators is pretty easy. Depends on how deeep you want to get into on the clip indicators (barely clipping, slightly clipping, clipping, clipping hard, okay you've been warn clipping). But its not worth the time and components for a simple on time use (or only checked once in a while)...you see where am going. Music is different, so while on song may be louder than the other it may clip slightly on that song, but not at all on the other, those that mean your going to adjust it on every song/genre?

they have it on line drivers like that. audio control does anyhow.

I can see why they will not, cause it would keep people from destroying their stuff but it would be nice.

[TrickyRicky]

Originally Posted by JAX

they have it on line drivers like that. audio control does anyhow.

I can see why they will not, cause it would keep people from destroying their stuff but it would be nice.

Yeah but if you stop them from destroying their stuff, how are they going to stay in business. Most companies want idiots to destroy their amps so they come back and buy new ones (oh I forgot they have Jimi's warranty).


A clip indicator is not hard to make, but most amplifiers are already crammed packed inside, but it doesnt take much space to include in the circuit.

[evo9]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Anyone ever heard of a home A/V receiver? If you have, have you ever noticed the volume setting that they start to distort with most speakers and most music? Yeah around half of full. Why is that? Hmmmmm

Sorry not totally true! Yeah my $2500.00 Onkyo from the 90s had that problem. My $2500.00 Denon form 2 years ago dont.

On the Onkyo anywhere between 9 & 12 position on the knob would be enough to damage things. The Denon has a digital volume & I can go close to 0.

[Chapman]

According to me amp Acoustic Control Corporation,Behringer,Carvin A&I these company are good for amp and speakers.

[Candisa]

I have 4 Genesis Dual Mono's waiting to be installed, 2x150W RMS at 4ohms and 0.1%THD with running car in reality...
I will use these on midbass (no problem there), but also on midrange and tweeters, no way I would EVER want to put full power on mids'n'tweets (do these play softer versions of guns'n'roses songs?)... Not even while calibrating the amps...

If Genesis Series 3 amps had this kind of technology, I'd probably had to get a Stereo60 on the tweeters (and still blow them, but that's the lightest amp they have!), a Stereo100 on midrange and still get a Dual Mono Extreme, bridged Four Channel or maybe even a pair of Monoblocks to make the midbasswoofers sound in balance to the mids and tweeters...
- I'd still be deaf way before my volume-dial comes even close to it's maximum...
- I'd spend crazy money on powering the midbasswoofers, while the tweeters and mids would still be overpowered and have less stereo-separation (no dual-mono-topology in the ST60 and ST100) on them...
- I'd have 3 different size amps in my trunk -> harder to create a nice design
- If I'd swap my midrangers by more efficient ones, I'd have to sell that ST100 to get a ST60 for them and rebuild my trunk... Wait, spending a lot of time to get and install a *less* powerfull amp???

A simple clip-indicator is all what's needed: tune the levels by ear and make sure none of the clipping-indicators are (severely) flashing...
Want full output on your subs: set the gains so the clipping indicator lights up at 0dB signal, but doesn't at -1dB... Easy, isn't it?


I wouldn't want to pay for technology that is intended to use only once everytime I change drivers or amps (auto-gain) and still have quite a bit of downsides, if a much cheaper technology (clipping-LED) does the job too and doesn't come with these downsides...

A volume control at amp-level would solve a few downsides, but if you have way overpowered amps like me, you'd still have to buy/build dummy loads to calibrate the amps without blowing your speakers...


PS.: Calling Behringer amps good really made my day

Isabelle

[minbari]

this has been done already. company called BBE made an anti-clipping circuit. it would detect when the output got near the rail voltage and would turn the gain down for you.

so you could set the gain all the way up and crank sine waves all you want, it would not clip. best part is it really worked! worst part is, it really worked! it took out all the dynamics of music since it wouldnt allow any clipping. beleive it or not, we listen to clipping all the time and cant hear it until it gets to ridiculous levels.

bottom line, it didnt sound very good and only low end amplifiers used it.

[robert_wrath]

I remember BBE from the early Pro Logic days in A/V receivers. Completely shattered sound stage in 5 Ch & Stereo.