SQ, why are coaxial speakers...

[slipchuck]

as far as sound quality, what makes coaxial speakers worse then components?

any and all reasons welcomed

thanks

randy

[ern2112]

Originally Posted by slipchuck

as far as sound quality, what makes coaxial speakers worse then components?

any and all reasons welcomed

thanks

randy

Components allow you to have better xovers and power handling and speaker components. That said, the only thing that matters is how the systems sounds. A Coax is a single origin point for r and l......and THIS makes for more realistic image as well as low speaker localization. In component sets with coax mounting ability....you can get this as well.

Have heard some very nice coax in my day.....so nice you would assume they were components if you did not know. Like I said...bottom line is how it sounds.

[sirvent_95]

There have been amazing coaxial speakers sold in the past. I was a big fan of the JL VR series. However, as a general rule coaxials tend to be of lesser build quality so they can be sold cheaper. Baskets are stamped and thinner, cones made of cheaper materials, and any crossover networks are rudimentary at best since they have to be affixed directly to the basket.

On the VR's I remember that they had a couple different components (mylar capacitors I think) affixed to the basket of their coax speakers. These components were physically large and seem out of place, but when installed in factory locations you were able to get excellent sound without installing a component system. The downside is that in order to get good sounding coaxials you need to spend as much as you would on components anyway. It becomes a wash at a certain point.

[ern2112]

Originally Posted by sirvent_95

There have been amazing coaxial speakers sold in the past. I was a big fan of the JL VR series. However, as a general rule coaxials tend to be of lesser build quality so they can be sold cheaper. Baskets are stamped and thinner, cones made of cheaper materials, and any crossover networks are rudimentary at best since they have to be affixed directly to the basket.

On the VR's I remember that they had a couple different components (mylar capacitors I think) affixed to the basket of their coax speakers. These components were physically large and seem out of place, but when installed in factory locations you were able to get excellent sound without installing a component system. The downside is that in order to get good sounding coaxials you need to spend as much as you would on components anyway. It becomes a wash at a certain point.

What he said

[chefhow]

Search is your friend...

coaxials cannot sound as good as components

[alton00]

However, as a general rule coaxials tend to be of lesser build quality so they can be sold cheaper. Baskets are stamped and thinner, cones made of cheaper materials, and any crossover networks are rudimentary at best since they have to be affixed directly to the basket.

[Candisa]

Coax versus components...
Cons:
- For simple installs, coax speakers end up in the doors with the tweeters off-axis and staging at your feet... A compo-tweeter can be mounted easily on every dashboard/A-pillar
- Most coaxials (there are exceptions!) rely on midwoofer roll-off and a simple capacitor as a crossover, instead of a nice passive network on most component sets
- Components allow to go active and individual pairs of drivers can be replaced by failure (passive and active) or as an upgrade (active)

But it's not all bad!
Pro's:
- Coaxials are point-source drivers, which can be a good thing for staging when mounted and aimed in the right spot
- There are coaxials that come with seperate passive crossover-networks and can be made active (although I see little use to that if the passive network is well-designed)
- 1 pair of nice round pods or kickpanels with just 1 hole in them can house both midrange/midwoofer ànd tweeter, and it's covered by only 1 grille...

We've actually thought about making 4" DIY coaxials to put in pods on the dashboard, combined with midbasswoofers in the doors, because of the good things that come with coaxial speakers!

Isabelle

[07azhhr]

+1 to ALL of the above.

[Wesayso]

Not all are bad: Zaph|Audio check out the Kef...

[Laramy-Audio]

Most coax speakers lack an actual crossover, having only a capacitor to block low frequencies (LF) from going to the tweeter. The problem is that HF going to the LF driver can produce some nasty cone breakup, causing distortion. Component systems use crossover networks using both capacitors and coils to filter the signal to both drivers.

Some coax speakers have real crossovers, and produce good sound, like the Infinity Kappa series, but you still have the tweeter in a non optimum location. Components give you the option of mounting the tweeter in a good location and orienting them toward the listener for better response. Most HF drivers are directional, and do not produce good HF response pointed at your ankles.

[cajunner]

the coax is a compromise, and most are designed as drop-in replacements.

steel baskets (shallower depth), universal flange/grill mounting, (compromised for factory standard dimensions), smaller magnet/motor (lower cost, designed for head unit power) makes for a speaker that has to cut corners.

Take something like the Aura MR Braxials, or the JBL GTi Braxials, they are big and burly, with cast frames and big motors, and outboard component crossovers.

The problem as to why they may not be able to achieve the sound of components lies in their mounting location. IF the speakers are high enough to achieve a good soundstage, then they are either in the dash or high in the door, both locations having issues with reflections and back wave treatment.

If they are put low in the doors, then you are dealing with a lower soundstage due to the width. In kicks they can sound pretty good, but the car has to be suitable for kick staging.

so, it's a lot of things, and diffraction at the tweeter bezel plays a role, magnet size for heat dissipation on the tweeter voice coil is another important factor, output, phase response from the midrange that's allowed to run off naturally wreaking havoc with the post-mount, or bayonet style coax designs..

let's just say that the same reasons plate speakers, (yeah, you eat on 'em, heh) were designed all the way back in the what, late 70's?, still exist today and components' biggest virtue was that freedom in placing the tweeter, many people here would be pleasantly surprised to hear an old ads 300i or Visonik David, or even an old EPI plate speaker in the right install today.

[jguthrie]

Originally Posted by sirvent_95

There have been amazing coaxial speakers sold in the past. I was a big fan of the JL VR series. However, as a general rule coaxials tend to be of lesser build quality so they can be sold cheaper. Baskets are stamped and thinner, cones made of cheaper materials, and any crossover networks are rudimentary at best since they have to be affixed directly to the basket.

I never see good quality coaxial speakers in person. They are always seem to be the cheaper products.

[captainscarlett]

Originally Posted by slipchuck

as far as sound quality, what makes coaxial speakers worse then components?

any and all reasons welcomed

thanks

randy

Its dependent on many factors. In my experience, i'm not quite sure they are! Having bought a pair of Vibe components speakers, after day 2/3 they sounded so bl@@dy awful, that i went back to my Morel Tempo coax's.

I had this issue in the headphone game where you would have many focusing on the types of fabrication/engineering side of things, bar the fact that regardless that they were $300 ear buds, with superhuman technology, they still sounded rubbish.

For me, the Vibe purchase was a harsh lesson and money wasted. I don't care if the basket is made from a used spaceship from a Ridley Scott film and the cones are made from Supermans underpants, if it sounds good, it sounds good, and those Vibe Black Air speakers were absolute garbage ...component consideration aside!

[07azhhr]

Originally Posted by captainscarlett

Its dependent on many factors. In my experience, i'm not quite sure they are! Having bought a pair of Vibe components speakers, after day 2/3 they sounded so bl@@dy awful, that i went back to my Morel Tempo coax's.

I had this issue in the headphone game where you would have many focusing on the types of fabrication/engineering side of things, bar the fact that regardless that they were $300 ear buds, with superhuman technology, they still sounded rubbish.

For me, the Vibe purchase was a harsh lesson and money wasted. I don't care if the basket is made from a used spaceship from a Ridley Scott film and the cones are made from Supermans underpants, if it sounds good, it sounds good, and those Vibe Black Air speakers were absolute garbage ...component consideration aside!

Two HUGE problems here. First your new components may just need a break in period. Second is you are comparing two different brands of speakers here. If you were trying the Vibe comps againt the same line of Vibe coax then you would be comparing apple to apples but right now you are comparing apples to oranges.

[cajunner]

even if the amount of raw materials, engineering, and build quality are compromised in a coaxial speaker, it's possible to improve their response by doing what manufacturers do with their components:

add a passive crossover that has 12 db/oct rolloff for both woofer and tweeter.

adding in zobel compensation and a notch filter for hard cone response peaks, would make a lot of people marvel at their "cheap" coaxes' new-found abilities.

[captainscarlett]

Originally Posted by 07azhhr

Two HUGE problems here. First your new components may just need a break in period. Second is you are comparing two different brands of speakers here. If you were trying the Vibe comps againt the same line of Vibe coax then you would be comparing apple to apples but right now you are comparing apples to oranges.

They were already broken in before i fitted them ... i learned the hard way when i blew my DLS tweeter after two hours. As i drive for a living anyway, they still had a good few hours behind them

The point is, garbage speakers are still gonna sound garbage whether they're components or coax's, and the Vibe were/are garbage!

There's no use trying to say; components are always going to be better. That's a sweeping generalisation that again is dependent on many factors, brand, fitting, amped or power by the HU, active, passive, sound proofing, pod design .. the list could go on.


So i stand by my initial statement

Originally Posted by captainscarlett

Its dependent on many factors.

The factor in my case Vibe vs. Morel ... which would you have?

The other factor is personal listening preferences and avoiding certain prejudices including branding. Don't get me wrong ... those Vibes were the third pair of Vibes i'd owned, so Vibe had more than one chance to impress me, but each pair was worst than the next.

Morel were a breathe of fresh air ... and though my DLS Classic's were cheaper, for under £100 in the UK DLS i feel have far and away been my best purchase.

Knowing what to listen for hast to factor in their somewhere. Don't get me wrong, i don't think EMMA are going to ask me to judge one of their competitions any time soon, and i have a long way to go .. but going back to my experience with headphones, sometime what people 'say' and what's actually happening doesn't quite match. That's why i stuck my head out and said that the Lady Gaga headphones by Monster weren't bad ... the rest of the Monster range is a hideous travesty!

I'm no expert when it comes to 2 or 3 way systems, processors, setting up db slopes, but at least I've got the guts to ask or say "I don't know/understand" when i don't.

Again going back to the headphones, regardless of magical technology, my final question is; how does it sound? I don't make judgements based on engineering theories, I listen with my ears. Components, coaxials .. I'm looking for the sound.

I've read various theories and opinions, point source speakers, diffraction, group delay, phase variants etc, ... but my final question is; how does it sound?

[jel847]

these are the AURA MR braxials that i have in my car. i have used them in a few cars over the years and they are some of my favorite speakers. i also have a set of the mr tweeters in my sail panels so you may say i might as well have just installed a component set.





a/d/s always made some really great sounding coaxial speakers. the new illusion audio point source speakers really have me interested but havent heard many reviews of them yet.

[Spyke]

I love the sound of a cheap pair of lightning audio coax's that i've had for years and years. They usually end up in work vehicles but I love their sound. If it wasn't for the stigma, i'd probably put them into a serious build.

Edit: Personal preference trumps price and type every time.

[Rodek]

I drive a classic car. Although I could probably achieve better sonics by modifying the door panels to house a component set, I just can't bring myself to do it. I'll stick with the coaxes.

[07azhhr]

Originally Posted by captainscarlett

They were already broken in before i fitted them ... i learned the hard way when i blew my DLS tweeter after two hours. As i drive for a living anyway, they still had a good few hours behind them

The point is, garbage speakers are still gonna sound garbage whether they're components or coax's, and the Vibe were/are garbage!

There's no use trying to say; components are always going to be better. That's a sweeping generalisation that again is dependent on many factors, brand, fitting, amped or power by the HU, active, passive, sound proofing, pod design .. the list could go on.


So i stand by my initial statement


The factor in my case Vibe vs. Morel ... which would you have?

The other factor is personal listening preferences and avoiding certain prejudices including branding. Don't get me wrong ... those Vibes were the third pair of Vibes i'd owned, so Vibe had more than one chance to impress me, but each pair was worst than the next.

Morel were a breathe of fresh air ... and though my DLS Classic's were cheaper, for under £100 in the UK DLS i feel have far and away been my best purchase.

Knowing what to listen for hast to factor in their somewhere. Don't get me wrong, i don't think EMMA are going to ask me to judge one of their competitions any time soon, and i have a long way to go .. but going back to my experience with headphones, sometime what people 'say' and what's actually happening doesn't quite match. That's why i stuck my head out and said that the Lady Gaga headphones by Monster weren't bad ... the rest of the Monster range is a hideous travesty!

I'm no expert when it comes to 2 or 3 way systems, processors, setting up db slopes, but at least I've got the guts to ask or say "I don't know/understand" when i don't.

Again going back to the headphones, regardless of magical technology, my final question is; how does it sound? I don't make judgements based on engineering theories, I listen with my ears. Components, coaxials .. I'm looking for the sound.

I've read various theories and opinions, point source speakers, diffraction, group delay, phase variants etc, ... but my final question is; how does it sound?

Where did I ever say a component is better then a coax? I was and still am stating that you are not comparing speakers that are on the same level as one another so you are comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps for you I should have used the Morels in my example but the example is still the same. If you were to compare Tempo components to Tempo coax's then you would be comparing apples to apples.

I have never ran either brand so I can not say at all how either sounds and will not. I am merely pointing out that your comparison has HUGE FLAWS in it.

FWIW I am pretty sure there are some incredible coax's out there that will rival the best components.

[captainscarlett]

Originally Posted by 07azhhr

I have never ran either brand so I can not say at all how either sounds and will not. I am merely pointing out that your comparison has HUGE FLAWS in it.

FWIW I am pretty sure there are some incredible coax's out there that will rival the best components.

Comparing one brand against another is the beauty of being able to choose!

[subwoofery]

Originally Posted by captainscarlett

Comparing one brand against another is the beauty of being able to choose!

07azhhr's mainly stating that the method isn't good when comparing brand A coax to brand B comp
Apple to apple is either:
brand A coax VS brand A comp - from the same line (which is better coax or comp)
brand B comp VS brand B comp - from the same line (which is better coax or comp)
brand A coax VS brand B coax (which is better brand A or brand B)
brand B comp VS brand A comp (which is better brand A or brand B)

Kelvin

[07azhhr]

Originally Posted by subwoofery

07azhhr's mainly stating that the method isn't good when comparing brand A coax to brand B comp
Apple to apple is either:
brand A coax VS brand A comp - from the same line (which is better coax or comp)
brand B coax VS brand B comp - from the same line (which is better coax or comp)
brand A coax VS brand B coax (which is better brand A or brand B)
brand B comp VS brand A comp (which is better brand A or brand B)

Kelvin

Thank you Kelvin.

Also I fixed your post a tiny bit .