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Old 08-13-2013   #226
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
I get a laugh every time I read that. I love the fact they never mention that sound travels in waves. What happens to waves when they interact with each other? They distort each other. Yes we only hear up to the 20k range. Does that prevent a sound that we can not hear from distorting a sound that we can? The answer is no. So, YES higher frequencies that we can not hear do influence sounds we hear all the time.
24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed

AES E-Library » Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution audio Playback
BAS Experiment Explanation page - Oct 2007

"[Engineering Report] Claims both published and anecdotal are regularly made for audibly superior sound quality for two-channel audio encoded with longer word lengths and/or at higher sampling rates than the 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard. The authors report on a series of double-blind tests comparing the analog output of high-resolution players playing high-resolution recordings with the same signal passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz “bottleneck.” The tests were conducted for over a year using different systems and a variety of subjects. The systems included expensive professional monitors and one high-end system with electrostatic loudspeakers and expensive components and cables. The subjects included professional recording engineers, students in a university recording program, and dedicated audiophiles. The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels."


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Old 08-13-2013   #227
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I think a lot of people miss what an actual audiophile is all about. The audiophile posers are most often connected with the term.

A real audiophile is all about exact reproduction of what was recorded. They want to be there in the recording studio with the artist and musicians to hear with their own ears what it was like. Audiophiles will go to extremes to achieve this end. This causes audiophiles to seek the best quality recording to reproduce the closest possible sound to what it was like in the studio. This is why 192kHz/32-bit matters to a real audiophile.

A poser is someone who claims to be able to hear a difference at those levels of reproduction. They generally have inadequacy issue so they want to be better than everyone else. This leads them to make claims that are impossible to substantiate.

I am an audiophile. My home audio system is insane. I can tell which key of a saxophone is being pressed on my McCoy Tyner New York Reunion CD at any point in time. I can tell you which direction and distance each instrument is located in relation to where I sit. That is what being an audiophile is about. Immersion in the sound to be able to place yourself there. if you swap high end amps I can not hear a difference. If you swap out my Magnepans I can tell a difference unless it's to a Mark Levinson. Planar Speaker make a world of difference since they produce the full spectrum of sound from one exact spot. Component Speaker sets (tweet mid and 3 mid bass) do have peaks and valleys in their sound reproduction that can be heard. The golden ear hearing sound frequencies that others can not is all myth created by posers with self esteem issues.

So please keep us real audiophiles out of that bad group of posers. :-)
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Old 08-14-2013   #228
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
I think a lot of people miss what an actual audiophile is all about. The audiophile posers are most often connected with the term.

A real audiophile is all about exact reproduction of what was recorded. They want to be there in the recording studio with the artist and musicians to hear with their own ears what it was like. Audiophiles will go to extremes to achieve this end. This causes audiophiles to seek the best quality recording to reproduce the closest possible sound to what it was like in the studio. This is why 192kHz/32-bit matters to a real audiophile.

A poser is someone who claims to be able to hear a difference at those levels of reproduction. They generally have inadequacy issue so they want to be better than everyone else. This leads them to make claims that are impossible to substantiate.

I am an audiophile. My home audio system is insane. I can tell which key of a saxophone is being pressed on my McCoy Tyner New York Reunion CD at any point in time. I can tell you which direction and distance each instrument is located in relation to where I sit. That is what being an audiophile is about. Immersion in the sound to be able to place yourself there. if you swap high end amps I can not hear a difference. If you swap out my Magnepans I can tell a difference unless it's to a Mark Levinson. Planar Speaker make a world of difference since they produce the full spectrum of sound from one exact spot. Component Speaker sets (tweet mid and 3 mid bass) do have peaks and valleys in their sound reproduction that can be heard. The golden ear hearing sound frequencies that others can not is all myth created by posers with self esteem issues.

So please keep us real audiophiles out of that bad group of posers. :-)
Its an honour to read something by a real audiophike with perfect pitch! Well I can said for myself that I love audio. Now I live the idea that become a vice to reproduce the best audio posible in a non recomended environment MY TRUCK . Sometimes I realize no matter what and how hard I try, im not going to sound like the bowers an W and onkio bose etc system I checked and listened on best buy.

Focal KRX3, Helix amp on stand by, mcIntosh mc440 & jl audio 750 hd amps helix p dsp. Idmax12 sealed. sony avx601bt double din.excuse my english its not my native lenguaje
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Old 08-14-2013   #229
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy View Post
I think a lot of people miss what an actual audiophile is all about. The audiophile posers are most often connected with the term.

A real audiophile is all about exact reproduction of what was recorded. They want to be there in the recording studio with the artist and musicians to hear with their own ears what it was like. Audiophiles will go to extremes to achieve this end. This causes audiophiles to seek the best quality recording to reproduce the closest possible sound to what it was like in the studio. This is why 192kHz/32-bit matters to a real audiophile.

A poser is someone who claims to be able to hear a difference at those levels of reproduction. They generally have inadequacy issue so they want to be better than everyone else. This leads them to make claims that are impossible to substantiate.

I am an audiophile. My home audio system is insane. I can tell which key of a saxophone is being pressed on my McCoy Tyner New York Reunion CD at any point in time. I can tell you which direction and distance each instrument is located in relation to where I sit. That is what being an audiophile is about. Immersion in the sound to be able to place yourself there. if you swap high end amps I can not hear a difference. If you swap out my Magnepans I can tell a difference unless it's to a Mark Levinson. Planar Speaker make a world of difference since they produce the full spectrum of sound from one exact spot. Component Speaker sets (tweet mid and 3 mid bass) do have peaks and valleys in their sound reproduction that can be heard. The golden ear hearing sound frequencies that others can not is all myth created by posers with self esteem issues.

So please keep us real audiophiles out of that bad group of posers. :-)
you are all over the place. you claim that "posers" want stuff that cant be heard or substantianed yet you want 32 bit 192 khz samples that also cant be differentiated from 44.1khz.

make up your mind.

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Old 08-14-2013   #230
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

What about recordings that aren't a reproduction of any single live event? And ones that include room synthesis on either the individual instruments or on the mixdown to make it seem like the recording was made with all the musicians together in one place? How do you audiophiles reconcile your need to hear exactly what was recorded? I love "how the artist INTENDED it to sound". How do you know what he intended?

I'll take believability over accuracy any day.
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Old 08-14-2013   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
What about recordings that aren't a reproduction of any single live event? And ones that include room synthesis on either the individual instruments or on the mixdown to make it seem like the recording was made with all the musicians together in one place? How do you audiophiles reconcile your need to hear exactly what was recorded? I love "how the artist INTENDED it to sound". How do you know what he intended?

I'll take believability over accuracy any day.
I kinda agree......

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Old 08-14-2013   #232
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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I'll take believability over accuracy any day.
Just wanted to toss in that many of us are still anxiously waiting for "The Head Cheese" to reveal his "secret."
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Old 08-14-2013   #233
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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This causes audiophiles to seek the best quality recording to reproduce the closest possible sound to what it was like in the studio. This is why 192kHz/32-bit matters to a real audiophile.
Wow.. 32-bit 192kHz. I'm pretty happy with 256k Mp3 streamed from my iPod xD

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Old 08-14-2013   #234
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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you are all over the place. you claim that "posers" want stuff that cant be heard or substantianed yet you want 32 bit 192 khz samples that also cant be differentiated from 44.1khz.

make up your mind.
Am I missing something here? At the begining of the post i covered that inaudiable frequences change soundwaves that we hear all the time. If you dont notice the higher than human hearing frequency that does not prevent and audiable impact on soundwaves that you can here. I also said an audiophile wants the cleanest possible recording to start with which is why 192khz/32-bit is important to the real audiophile and that a poser is the one who thinks they can hear a difference where there is not a noticeable one. How is highest quality source for best possible reproduction contradicting anything? The more data to reproduce, the better the output. The goal of an audiophile is the best sound they can produce with what they have, wether or not a slight difference can be heard or not is irrelevant. We audiophiles, to an extent, are nut cases. How have I been all over the place?

Oh, and on the 44.1khz comment. I know a recording engineer that played back a studio recording of an artist back for them at 192khz/32-bit and the artists responce was "that's the first time I've ever heard the same thing out here as I have heard in the there." It's not about the frequency recorded so much as it is about how much is recorded. With 192khz/32-bit there is way more data to reproduce. Going from a 44.1khz CD to a 192khz/32-bit wav file is similar to going from a 128 bit mp3 to a CD as far as amount of data to reproduce. The audible difference is just not as dramatic.
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Old 08-14-2013   #235
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Am I missing something here? At the begining of the post i covered that inaudiable frequences change soundwaves that we hear all the time. If you dont notice the higher than human hearing frequency that does not prevent and audiable impact on soundwaves that you can here. I also said an audiophile wants the cleanest possible recording to start with which is why 192khz/32-bit is important to the real audiophile and that a poser is the one who thinks they can hear a difference where there is not a noticeable one. How is highest quality source for best possible reproduction contradicting anything? The more data to reproduce, the better the output. The goal of an audiophile is the best sound they can produce with what they have, wether or not a slight difference can be heard or not is irrelevant. We audiophiles, to an extent, are nut cases. How have I been all over the place?
again you are claiming that the "posers" are the ones that claim to be able to hear things that are inaudble. the difference between those two is inaudble.
Quote:
Oh, and on the 44.1khz comment. I know a recording engineer that played back a studio recording of an artist back for them at 192khz/32-bit and the artists responce was "that's the first time I've ever heard the same thing out here as I have heard in the there." It's not about the frequency recorded so much as it is about how much is recorded. With 192khz/32-bit there is way more data to reproduce. Going from a 44.1khz CD to a 192khz/32-bit wav file is similar to going from a 128 bit mp3 to a CD as far as amount of data to reproduce. The audible difference is just not as dramatic.

no its not. its like going from a 500 hp ferrari to a 750 hp ferrari. yes you have more Power and yes it will go faster, but 0-60 is nearly the same.

since a CD is not 32 bit and is not 192khz, your point is moot. how many albums can be gotten at that bitrate and sample rate? just about none. where are 95% of all the mp3 and wav and other lossless formats ripped from? CDs
Just because you have tons more data doesnt equate into tons more fidelity. its law of diminishing returns at its best.

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Old 08-14-2013   #236
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Wow.. 32-bit 192kHz. I'm pretty happy with 256k Mp3 streamed from my iPod xD
32bit is the new it thing ever since they started coming out with 32bit capable DAC chips. Too bad the effective number of bits of everything made to date is still limited to 19. Every little bit counts though right. Take for example, the other day I went out of my way to scrap some bug shit off my car's bumper, because I knew the weight reduction and reduce drag would improve my gas mileage.

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Old 08-14-2013   #237
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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again you are claiming that the "posers" are the ones that claim to be able to hear things that are inaudble. the difference between those two is inaudble.



no its not. its like going from a 500 hp ferrari to a 750 hp ferrari. yes you have more Power and yes it will go faster, but 0-60 is nearly the same.

since a CD is not 32 bit and is not 192khz, your point is moot. how many albums can be gotten at that bitrate and sample rate? just about none. where are 95% of all the mp3 and wav and other lossless formats ripped from? CDs
Just because you have tons more data doesnt equate into tons more fidelity. its law of diminishing returns at its best.
Who says I've been starting with CDs? Remember that nuts comment I made earlier. Here's a URL to where you can get a good selection. There are a lot more sites like this one.

https://www.hdtracks.com/

PS: I have zero music I did not pay for. So no downloaded music equates to total control over what source material is used.
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Old 08-14-2013   #238
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

read this. maybe you will understand why 192khz sampling is pointless, if you wont beleive me.

where do they get thier masters from? I highly doubt the recording companies lend out the master recording from studios.

24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed

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Old 08-14-2013   #239
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
32bit is the new it thing ever since they started coming out with 32bit capable DAC chips. Too bad the effective number of bits of everything made to date is still limited to 19. Every little bit counts though right. Take for example, the other day I went out of my way to scrap some bug shit off my car's bumper, because I knew the weight reduction and reduce drag would improve my gas mileage.
And you know what, I'm glad those chips are now affordable. Any new purchases will be 32-bit. As to the 19bit recordings, I'd like to show you some 24 bit recordings from 2007 and before.

192/24 Master WAV Discs
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Old 08-14-2013   #240
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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read this. maybe you will understand why 192khz sampling is pointless, if you wont beleive me.

where do they get thier masters from? I highly doubt the recording companies lend out the master recording from studios.

24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed
Yup, I've read that and laughed before. Remember I'm nuts.

Follow this link for masters you can buy. 192/24 Master WAV Discs
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Old 08-14-2013   #241
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

yup, I guess arguing with crazy people is pointless.

wow $45 for a $10 album that doesnt sound better, what a bargain.

Quote:
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And you know what, I'm glad those chips are now affordable. Any new purchases will be 32-bit. As to the 19bit recordings, I'd like to show you some 24 bit recordings from 2007 and before.

192/24 Master WAV Discs

you have 120db of dynamic headroom with only 16bits!??! what the hell are you going to do with 32 bits? music is not that dynamic. its not a matter of "being a nutty guy" its just wont happen and is complettely worthless.

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Old 08-14-2013   #242
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Get yourself a tube amplifier and call me in the morning. That's a difference. Wabam!
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Old 08-14-2013   #243
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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yup, I guess arguing with crazy people is pointless.

wow $45 for a $10 album that doesnt sound better, what a bargain..
Keep in mind some of those recording were never release in any other format.

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Originally Posted by minbari View Post
you have 120db of dynamic headroom with only 16bits!??! what the hell are you going to do with 32 bits? music is not that dynamic. its not a matter of "being a nutty guy" its just wont happen and is complettely worthless.
How else are you getting as close to analog recording quality reproduction in a digital format?
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Old 08-14-2013   #244
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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How else are you getting as close to analog recording quality reproduction in a digital format?
analog still has a limitation to how much dynamic range is possible. you dont get infinity db crest factor just because it is analog.

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Old 08-14-2013   #245
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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32bit is the new it thing ever since they started coming out with 32bit capable DAC chips. Too bad the effective number of bits of everything made to date is still limited to 19. Every little bit counts though right. Take for example, the other day I went out of my way to scrap some bug shit off my car's bumper, because I knew the weight reduction and reduce drag would improve my gas mileage.

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And you know what, I'm glad those chips are now affordable. Any new purchases will be 32-bit. As to the 19bit recordings, I'd like to show you some 24 bit recordings from 2007 and before.

192/24 Master WAV Discs
Effective number of bits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Effective number of bits (ENOB) is a measure of the quality of a digitised signal. The resolution of a digital-to-analog or analog-to-digital converter (DAC or ADC) is commonly specified by the number of bits used to represent the analog value, in principle giving 2N signal levels for an N-bit signal. However, all real signals contain a certain amount of noise. ENOB specifies the number of bits in the digitised signal above the noise floor.[citation needed] Often ENOB is used as a quality measure also for other blocks like sample-and-hold amplifiers. This way also analog blocks can be easily included to signal-chain calculations as the total ENOB of a chain of blocks is usually below the ENOB of the worst block."

Again, the best components at any price are just beginning to approach the 19bit range.

Now someone will then say why then have that level of digital headroom in the digital domain if it can't be realized in the recording or export processes? Because the dynamic range headroom is beneficial in the production/mastering process where many individual tracks are mixed together and or manipulated. Once you export to the listening medium, anything over 16 bit is wasted. Even a DSP stage since unlike in music production, there is only one digital stream to process.

http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Bit_Depth

"32 BitSome see 32 bit recording as taking things to extremes. Although 32 bit recording can in theory have better technical specs than less bits, it is not often such great bit depth is needed. General purpose recording does not need 32 bit depth for the same reason clothing sizes do not come in increments of 1/1000th of an inch.

Finding audio sources capable of providing signals with better dynamic range than than 24 bit resolution is a demanding task. A 32 bit data stream records 65,000 times the dynamic range of 16 bit CD audio. In real world applications, a lot of those bits will be normally recording nothing but very low level background noise.

Also bear in mind that in many cases you will exporting to a 16 bit format (there are not many computer media players that support playing 32 bit files, and if you are burning to a standard audio CD, that format is by definition 16 bit).

But if you want the highest standards (for example, operate a recording studio), expect to do a large amount of manipulation of the data before export, and have audio source equipment with an extremely low noise floor, 32 bit recording (which is the default setting in Audacity) will give the best possible quality and avoid the bit depth having any effect on the sound even after heavy manipulation of the audio.

Much of the reason for this is that Audacity uses "float" format for 32 bit recording instead of fixed integer format. Normalised floating point values are quicker and easier to process on computers than fixed integer values and allow greater dynamic range to be retained even after editing. This is because intermediate signals during audio processing can have very variable values. If they all get truncated to a fixed integer format, you can't boost them back up to full scale without losing resolution (i.e. without the data becoming less representative of the original than it was before). With floating point, rounding errors during intermediate processing are negligible.

The (theoretically audible) advantage of this is that 32-bit floating point format retains the original noise floor, and does not add noise. For example, with fixed integer data, applying a compressor effect to lower the peaks by 9 dB and separately amplifying back up would cost 9dB (or more than 2 bits) of signal to noise ratio (SNR). If done with floating point data, the SNR of the peaks remains as good as before (except that the quiet passages are 9dB louder and so 9dB noisier due to the noise they had in the first place).

The advantage of using 32 bit float to work with holds even if you have to export to a 16 bit format. Using Dither on the Quality tab of Audacity Preferences will improve the sound quality of the exported file so there are only minimal (probably non-audible) effects of downsampling from 32 bit to 16 bit."

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Old 08-15-2013   #246
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

While you all argue about 24 or 32/192, I am going to point out that it only matters in studio mastering, and not at all for playback. What does make a massive difference in audible playback though, is how well the album you play was mastered by the studio engineer. Read the wiki page on "loudness wars" and you'll see why a $45 CD of Pink Floyd's Dark side of the monn from MFSL sounds so much better than the original mass-pressing CD release of the same CD that sold for $13. I'm far more interested in the engineer's work and dynamic range of the album than I am in how many bits the DAC has on which it's being played back in a Car with 70dB of road noise.

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Originally Posted by GlassWolf View Post
While you all argue about 24 or 32/192, I am going to point out that it only matters in studio mastering, and not at all for playback. What does make a massive difference in audible playback though, is how well the album you play was mastered by the studio engineer. Read the wiki page on "loudness wars" and you'll see why a $45 CD of Pink Floyd's Dark side of the monn from MFSL sounds so much better than the original mass-pressing CD release of the same CD that sold for $13. I'm far more interested in the engineer's work and dynamic range of the album than I am in how many bits the DAC has on which it's being played back in a Car with 70dB of road noise.
And how is your 16 bit max cd better than my 16 bit max cd?

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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

The work done by the studio sound engineer in re-mastering the album for CD from the original master studio recordings is superior on the MFSL CD, as compared to the mass-pressing version. This is the case for a number of high-end CD releases that were re-mastered by better engineers using the original master studio recordings of the albums, like Sony Mastersound, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab, and the like. I never said the physical CD itself was any different. We're not comparing SACD or DVD-A to CD here, and quite frankly, even then I dislike multi-channel audio tracks, and most SACDs only sound better than the original CDs due to the re-mastering, not the increase in bits or any of that nonsense. Too many labels, executives, engineers, and artists want an album to have more dynamic compression so it sounds "louder" and therefore "better" to the untrained ear of most listeners. I, on the other hand, like many better engineers, prefer superior dynamic range on a recording, even if it means you have to turn the volume up a little higher to get the same average audible volume (reference volume) from the CD as compared to one recorded with a ton of dynamic compression.

Want to audition the difference? Get a copy of both Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms, from the original 1986 release, and the newer 1991 digitally remastered release.
The original has fat superior engineering. The "digitally remastered" version has higher dynamic compression that turns the cymbals on the drum set into something resembling a person slapping wet leather. It's horrid. "digitally remastered" usually translates into "lots of compression, and a lot less quality."
The re-mastering quality will make a much greater audible difference to an album than the DAC used for a CD.

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Last edited by GlassWolf; 08-16-2013 at 08:43 AM..
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Old 08-15-2013   #249
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

^^ This
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Old 08-15-2013   #250
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

The older Dire Straits you mentioned sounds much better on the orginal...which does need turned up if you want it loud. One of the best recorded around.
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