HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH - Page 101 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-24-2015   #2501
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,183

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 61 Jepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Resolution Audio View Post
I just wanted to bring up a few points about the fact that some people say that if there is a difference that can be heard it can be measured:
Generalizations and pontification like this by someone that has not actually read the arguments presented nor understands the science involved is why I will be leaving this discussion.

Most measurements are NOT done from a single point- have you read *anything* on this site about measurement and tuning?

Interaural time difference, Interaural intensity difference, reflective zone versus resonant zone versus zone of confusion (Schroeder frequency) in a car cabin installation are all taken into account in the most basic measurement and tuning processes.

Here is a great place to start learning -> First-timers guide to measuring your system

Your generalizations about technology are naive at best, insulting at worst. Technology has not created a single problem in and of itself. It is a tool that can be applied in many wonderful (and terrifying) ways - by MAN. Religious fanaticism and blind ignorant belief have propagated far more violence and destruction than science.

Can we please invoke Godwin's law and kill this thread now.

Last edited by Jepalan; 02-24-2015 at 09:41 AM..
Jepalan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-24-2015   #2502
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
High Resolution Audio's Avatar
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Posts: 1,430

Thanks: 20
Thanked 16 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 48 High Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jepalan View Post
Generalizations and pontification like this by someone that has not actually read the arguments presented nor understands the science involved is why I will be leaving this discussion.

Most measurements are NOT done from a single point- have you read *anything* on this site about measurement and tuning?

Interaural time difference, Interaural intensity difference, reflective zone versus resonant zone versus zone of confusion (Schroeder frequency) in a car cabin installation are all taken into account in the most basic measurement and tuning processes.

Here is a great place to start learning -> First-timers guide to measuring your system

Your generalizations about technology are naive at best, insulting at worst. Technology has not created a single problem in and of itself. It is a tool that can be applied in many wonderful (and terrifying) ways - by MAN.
Religious fanaticism and blind ignorant belief have propagated far more violence and destruction than science.

Can we please invoke Godwin's law and kill this thread now.
I checked your link. It still seems as if there is only one microphone in the diagram. Am I missing something?
High Resolution Audio is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2503
DIYMA 500 Club
 
captainobvious's Avatar
 
more SQ
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,818

Thanks: 135
Thanked 71 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 194 captainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of light


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Resolution Audio View Post
I just wanted to bring up a few points about the fact that some people say that if there is a difference that can be heard it can be measured:

Most measurements are done with a single microphone. One source point of gathering information.

As everyone knows, we have two ears. Our ears are spaced apart at different widths. Our ear shapes and canals gather sound differently. Our ear canals (amplification chambers) are not exactly inversely symmetrical. We are all different heights. We have two source points for gathering information.

Moving a microphone just 1/2" has shown to have a significant frequency response change.

Knowing all of the above, and adding to the equation that each ear hears sound differently just as each of our eyes sees differently, it is our brains that take and analyze the two sources of information and come up with the final rendering.

I doubt that it would ever be possible to be able to come up with a mechanical tool that is as complicated as the human body system. To do so would infer that we as human beings are as intelligent as our creator.

Lots of people go through life with blinders on. They cannot see the big picture how the entire planet and everything on it has been designed to work together in a symbiotic relationship. How changing one thing can have an affect on so many other things.

Yes, technology is great and wonderful and has helped the human race advance, however, it has also caused just as many problems. To think that by simply measuring something with a mechanical device created by man is the be all end all definitive answer is not opening up your mind to the possibility that life may not just be black and white but many shades of gray.

That's all well and good. But people still can't tell the difference between the "shades of gray" coming out of these amplifiers. That's the point. We understand that we all hear things differently. This still does not change the fact that people aren't able to hear the differences between amplifiers in these tests when outside variables are removed. The most vehement supporters of the "differences" myth are those that have not even been party to a proper blind AX or ABX comparison so I'd argue that their point is moot.

Simply put: You don't know what you don't know...until you do.


.

------------------------------------------------------
2016 Pennsylvania State Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- IASCA Amateur
captainobvious is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2015   #2504
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
High Resolution Audio's Avatar
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Posts: 1,430

Thanks: 20
Thanked 16 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 48 High Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
That's all well and good. But people still can't tell the difference between the "shades of gray" coming out of these amplifiers. That's the point. We understand that we all hear things differently. This still does not change the fact that people aren't able to hear the differences between amplifiers in these tests when outside variables are removed. The most vehement supporters of the "differences" myth are those that have not even been party to a proper blind AX or ABX comparison so I'd argue that their point is moot.

Simply put: You don't know what you don't know...until you do.


.
I have heard differences in amplifiers. The differences were very subtle. Too subtle to actually describe or quantify with words. But out of four amps that I compared, there were three that were nearly identical and one that sounded better to me than the rest.
High Resolution Audio is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2505
DIYMA 500 Club
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
Victor_inox's Avatar
 
UNPLUGGED
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 8,274

12V Company:
Victory Sonics
Position:
Owner/ Engineer/Sales/Support

Thanks: 92
Thanked 46 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 150 Victor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the rough


iTrader: (95)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Resolution Audio View Post
I have heard differences in amplifiers. The differences were very subtle. Too subtle to actually describe or quantify with words. But out of four amps that I compared, there were three that were nearly identical and one that sounded better to me than the rest.
No you haven`t... It`s all your imagination.....

It seems like most people don't care to actually understand reality.
Victor_inox is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2506
DIYMA 500 Club
 
captainobvious's Avatar
 
more SQ
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,818

Thanks: 135
Thanked 71 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 194 captainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of light


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Resolution Audio View Post
I have heard differences in amplifiers. The differences were very subtle. Too subtle to actually describe or quantify with words. But out of four amps that I compared, there were three that were nearly identical and one that sounded better to me than the rest.

I stated in a PROPER BLIND AX or ABX test.


Have you done that? Where? Conducted by whom? Supporting documentation from the tests?


Listening to amps willy nilly and switching back and forth is not a proper control protocol. If you are able to hear differences, that would be revealed in the testing results. If not- well welcome to reality, you're like the rest of us afterall- no shame in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
No you haven`t... It`s all your imagination.....
Same goes for you. Answers to the above questions?



.

------------------------------------------------------
2016 Pennsylvania State Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- IASCA Amateur
captainobvious is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2507
Upgrade Your Membership!
Moderator
 
Diyma Ninja
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Nowhere, overthere
Posts: 11,223

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 250 thehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud ofthehatedguy has much to be proud of


iTrader: (28)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

So when we talk about accurate reproduction, are we talking about live instruments in the studio or what is coming out of the monitors?
thehatedguy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2508
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South africa
Posts: 1,317

Thanks: 6
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 66 Elektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished road


iTrader: (1)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVD240 View Post
So... not knowing what's in the test without visually seeing the equipment is "tricking your brain."

But... seeing the equipment during the test is "preparing you for the test."

Most solid logic presented in this thread thus far.
Don't you think if I could see both amps in a test it levels the playing fields?

After all I ditched a $5000 amp for a $700 amp - surely I would have been biased towards the $5000 amp? I chose the best product to my ears - it just so happened it was the best product to other people's ears as well.. So how far was I off?

I am not interested in being biased to a certain product as I would be shooting myself in the foot doing so..

I do the tests for my benefit not to be biased to a product... That's ridiculous..

Seeing the equipment makes no difference to the end result...

Group AB testing is just a fun exercise that has no bearing on wether or not I would agree on the results or not..

Placing too much emphasis on group ABX testing - taints the end results imho...

Your measuring emphasis as the only way to explain anything and the search for a "solid logic" is like searching for the holy Grail...

You and I don't hear the same - what would a blind ABX test prove? I can hear a difference you can't? Vices versa? so for whose benefit will that serve? Mine or yours? And how does a guy on the other end of the world benefit from those results?

They can't because of a multitude of factors in its way...

As I said it proves nothing...

A BRAX amp probably measures better than a EOS amp - but the EOS amp sounds better?

Do I choose the measurements or my ear?
Elektra is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2509
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,183

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 61 Jepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Resolution Audio View Post
I checked your link. It still seems as if there is only one microphone in the diagram. Am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing everything. You don't need two microphones to account for the fact that we have two ears. Multiple measurements are taken on right and left sides, saved and averaged. The way the data is used and the tuning process itself is design to address all the 'human' qualities you are so concerned about.
Jepalan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2510
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
High Resolution Audio's Avatar
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Posts: 1,430

Thanks: 20
Thanked 16 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 48 High Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
I stated in a PROPER BLIND AX or ABX test.


Have you done that? Where? Conducted by whom? Supporting documentation from the tests?


Listening to amps willy nilly and switching back and forth is not a proper control protocol. If you are able to hear differences, that would be revealed in the testing results. If not- well welcome to reality, you're like the rest of us afterall- no shame in that.



Same goes for you. Answers to the above questions?



.
I will describe the entire event and the conditions etc. a little later as I have to do some errands right now. My story will be a little long, and later on today when I return I will have time to share the events and conditions, etc.
High Resolution Audio is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2511
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,183

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 61 Jepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
I 100% agree with what High Resolution Audio said
Of course you do. There is profit in it for you. Don't get me wrong - I have no direct experience with your products, and have read many good reviews of the value and good performance your amps and PSUs offer. On the other hand it does seem a little strange that someone who is in the business of selling technology products agrees with the "technology is evil" preacher.
Jepalan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2512
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South africa
Posts: 1,317

Thanks: 6
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 66 Elektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished road


iTrader: (1)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
That's all well and good. But people still can't tell the difference between the "shades of gray" coming out of these amplifiers. That's the point. We understand that we all hear things differently. This still does not change the fact that people aren't able to hear the differences between amplifiers in these tests when outside variables are removed. The most vehement supporters of the "differences" myth are those that have not even been party to a proper blind AX or ABX comparison so I'd argue that their point is moot.

Simply put: You don't know what you don't know...until you do.


.
Hogwash... I have heard massive differences between 2 amps equally matched...

By your reasoning we should all choose the cheapest rubbish on the market to install in our cars.. It will sound no different to high end amps.. So why spend $$ ?
I am willing to bet anything you like if I check your ZAPCO posts I can dig out plenty of comments made by you that the "Z amps are the best you heard"

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

You can't even argue power as their are plenty of cheap amps that produce more than enough power to run whatever you want...

You will notice I have not contradicted myself even from those old threads..

So Captain what's in your trunk? Cheap and nasty or high end?
Elektra is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2513
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
subwoofery's Avatar
 
DIYMA Addict
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 6,207

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 280 subwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (7)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX/Z28 View Post
Seriously? Setting gains so both amps make identical power. not "correctly", the gains are set within the limits of the weaker amp. See, you don't even understand the point we are making, nevermind having anything useful to contribute. You don't bother to read the explanation, you just assume it is wrong, so you skim over it...

Have you even read the guidelines of RC's challenge at all?

Knew I should have re-read my post before posting
Well yeah, set the gain to match the lower output one... So you can hear the difference? According to your previous post, yes you could

For the record, I understand everything your camp has been trying to express... RC's challenge? Yes I've read it and understand it too




Please explain what a "distortion profile" is? Assuming you mean distortion is the difference, distortion is measureable, so we should:

A: be able to simply choose the amp that measured the least distortion.

B: not be able to hear the fractions of a percent of distortion the amp makes over the 3% or more distortion the speaker itself creates.

C: already know that distortion below a certain threshold is inaudible.

You may post it many more times (I don't remember seeing it accepted as useful information), but it still holds no water.

Keep posturing as though you've made some revelation to us that we're all missing... by all means...

That's the thing, you guyz ARE MISSING something... Please read this:
The Decware Audiophile Tube Amplifier / Model ZEN TORII MKIII
What I want to point out is in "SET sound from Push-Pull"



That you dismiss that information too because you "think" we can't hear it is fine... but the difference is there - if it measures different, it sounds different... remember?
Everything is in my sig, nothing to hide
My post for reference:
Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
Buy looking at some tests done on some amps, I've noticed a trend - the warm sound we hear from some amps doesn't come from the freq response but from the distorsion figures over the whole spectrum (usually above 1kHz). Here are a few examples:




I also want to point out that the distorsion figures we see doesn't necessarily mean that "warm" amps have the highest "Total Harmonic Distorsion" numbers.
"Warm" amps:
Audison - THD @ 4 ohm is 0.138%
DLS Ref - THD @ 4 ohm is 0.029%
Mosconi - THD @ 4 ohm is 0.07%
Sinfoni - THD @ 4 ohm is 0.02%

"Clinical" amps:
Brax X2 - THD @ 4 ohm is 0.44% (not a mistake)
DLS TA2 - yes, this hybrid tube amp actually exhibits more of a clinical sound. It's THD @ 4 ohm is 0.046%
Focal - THD @ 4 ohm is 0.028%
Zapco - THD @ 4 ohm is 0.005%

Let's discuss

Kelvin
Kelvin

Lycan
Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
subwoofery is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2514
DIYMA 500 Club
 
captainobvious's Avatar
 
more SQ
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,818

Thanks: 135
Thanked 71 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 194 captainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of light


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elektra View Post
Don't you think if I could see both amps in a test it levels the playing fields?

After all I ditched a $5000 amp for a $700 amp - surely I would have been biased towards the $5000 amp? I chose the best product to my ears - it just so happened it was the best product to other people's ears as well.. So how far was I off?

I am not interested in being biased to a certain product as I would be shooting myself in the foot doing so..

I do the tests for my benefit not to be biased to a product... That's ridiculous..

Seeing the equipment makes no difference to the end result...

Group AB testing is just a fun exercise that has no bearing on wether or not I would agree on the results or not..

Placing too much emphasis on group ABX testing - taints the end results imho...

Your measuring emphasis as the only way to explain anything and the search for a "solid logic" is like searching for the holy Grail...
You're so far off base here. You need to understand psycho-acoustics and how they can affect what you perceive. This is why your argument is fundamentally flawed. YES, seeing the amplifiers makes a difference in what you think you hear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elektra
You and I don't hear the same - what would a blind ABX test prove? I can hear a difference you can't? Vices versa? so for whose benefit will that serve? Mine or yours? And how does a guy on the other end of the world benefit from those results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elektra
As I said it proves nothing...
Have you done an AX/ABX controlled blind evaluation? If not, then how can you dismiss its merits and worth...?

------------------------------------------------------
2016 Pennsylvania State Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- IASCA Amateur
captainobvious is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2515
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
subwoofery's Avatar
 
DIYMA Addict
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 6,207

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 280 subwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond reputesubwoofery has a reputation beyond repute


iTrader: (7)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
Good point Kelvin.

I'd argue though that you should not be running amplifiers into their range of higher distortion as that's not what the product is designed for and not where its designed to be operated. That's buyer error for not selecting the amplifier with enough output for their systems needs. Distortion profile is irrelevant if you're operating them in the designed range which is below audibility, no?
I just made a post that replies to yours

Explanation is in the Decware link.

Kelvin

Lycan
Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
subwoofery is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2516
DIYMA 500 Club
 
captainobvious's Avatar
 
more SQ
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,818

Thanks: 135
Thanked 71 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 194 captainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of light


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Resolution Audio View Post
I will describe the entire event and the conditions etc. a little later as I have to do some errands right now. My story will be a little long, and later on today when I return I will have time to share the events and conditions, etc.

Thanks for taking the time to do so.

------------------------------------------------------
2016 Pennsylvania State Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- IASCA Amateur
captainobvious is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2517
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,183

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 61 Jepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elektra View Post
Don't you think if I could see both amps in a test it levels the playing fields?
^^ No. It has been demonstrated many times that knowledge of the product under test *does* bias your perception. This isn't something you 'will' to happen - it just does.

Quote:
I am not interested in being biased to a certain product as I would be shooting myself in the foot doing so..
You cannot will sub-conscious psychological biases to happen or not.

Quote:
Seeing the equipment makes no difference to the end result...
^^^Yes, it does matter. This is the entire point of most of the 100+ pages of discussion here. It has been proven many times that it *DOES* matter.

Quote:
You and I don't hear the same - what would a blind ABX test prove? I can hear a difference you can't? Vices versa? so for whose benefit will that serve? Mine or yours? And how does a guy on the other end of the world benefit from those results?
They can't because of a multitude of factors in its way...
As I said it proves nothing...
A BRAX amp probably measures better than a EOS amp - but the EOS amp sounds better?
Do I choose the measurements or my ear?
Why are you talking about measurements now? Blind ABX is a *listening* test. Period.

Let me explain one benefit of blind testing for you...

Everything that is recorded and everything that is captured on camera uses science and engineering that has been painstakingly targeted at the scientifically measured capabilities of human aural and visual perception. This extensive data was taken in very controlled ways using blind test methodologies. Everything in the process of capturing light & sound, storing it, compressing it, and reproducing it depends on the knowledge gained from from these well-controlled experiments.

Last edited by Jepalan; 02-24-2015 at 10:28 AM..
Jepalan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2518
DIYMA 500 Club
 
captainobvious's Avatar
 
more SQ
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,818

Thanks: 135
Thanked 71 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 194 captainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of light


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elektra View Post
Hogwash... I have heard massive differences between 2 amps equally matched...

By your reasoning we should all choose the cheapest rubbish on the market to install in our cars.. It will sound no different to high end amps.. So why spend $$ ?
I am willing to bet anything you like if I check your ZAPCO posts I can dig out plenty of comments made by you that the "Z amps are the best you heard"

Are you not contradicting yourself here?

You can't even argue power as their are plenty of cheap amps that produce more than enough power to run whatever you want...

You will notice I have not contradicted myself even from those old threads..

So Captain what's in your trunk? Cheap and nasty or high end?

As I said- PROPER AX/ABX comparison. This is NOT what you did. What you did is NOT a controlled blind evaluation and therefore introduces psychoacoustics and biases into the mix.


I've admitted before and I still do that I once also thought I could hear differences between amplifiers- until I learned better.

Also- I've also said numerous times that there are MANY considerations that one must take into account when selecting an amplifier for their system. The "sound" of the amplifier just happens to not be among those considerations. Size, power output, price, aesthetics, warranty, customer service, exclusivity...these are just a few of the considerations I would recommend. Sound? No.

Currently in my trunk is nothing...but soon to be JL HD amps. And JL XD amps in my wifes car. Class D....the horror!

------------------------------------------------------
2016 Pennsylvania State Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- IASCA Amateur
captainobvious is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2519
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,183

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 61 Jepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enoughJepalan will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
I just made a post that replies to yours
Explanation is in the Decware link.
Kelvin
It is well known that certain amplifier topologies produce even order distortion products and others do not. It has also been shown (in blind ABX listening tests) that in some cases these differences are audible.

The point is:
If the differences are audible, then they are measurable.

NOT the other way around.
Jepalan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2520
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
High Resolution Audio's Avatar
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Posts: 1,430

Thanks: 20
Thanked 16 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 48 High Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enoughHigh Resolution Audio will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jepalan View Post
Yes, you are missing everything. You don't need two microphones to account for the fact that we have two ears. Multiple measurements are taken on right and left sides, saved and averaged. The way the data is used and the tuning process itself is design to address all the 'human' qualities you are so concerned about.
Who is to say that the L + R average is the correct rendering? You would be assuming so if you did.
Using your logic, with eyesight for instance, what you see with the right eye is different from the left. If you came up with a drawing that averaged what both eyes saw, would that be the way out brain perceives the image? You would be wrong if you did so.
High Resolution Audio is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2521
DIYMA 500 Club
 
captainobvious's Avatar
 
more SQ
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,818

Thanks: 135
Thanked 71 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 194 captainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of light


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
I just made a post that replies to yours

Explanation is in the Decware link.

Kelvin
Not sure I fully understand Kelvin. Are we talking about harmonics that end up being 80db or more below the fundamental frequency being audible?

Pretty amplifier- nice craftsmanship by the looks of it.

------------------------------------------------------
2016 Pennsylvania State Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- IASCA Amateur
captainobvious is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2522
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South africa
Posts: 1,317

Thanks: 6
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 66 Elektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished road


iTrader: (1)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
As I said- PROPER AX/ABX comparison. This is NOT what you did. What you did is NOT a controlled blind evaluation and therefore introduces psychoacoustics and biases into the mix.


I've admitted before and I still do that I once also thought I could hear differences between amplifiers- until I learned better.

Also- I've also said numerous times that there are MANY considerations that one must take into account when selecting an amplifier for their system. The "sound" of the amplifier just happens to not be among those considerations. Size, power output, price, aesthetics, warranty, customer service, exclusivity...these are just a few of the considerations I would recommend. Sound? No.

Currently in my trunk is nothing...but soon to be JL HD amps. And JL XD amps in my wifes car. Class D....the horror!
Indeed horror.. Lol
Elektra is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2523
DIYMA 500 Club
 
captainobvious's Avatar
 
more SQ
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,818

Thanks: 135
Thanked 71 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 194 captainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of lightcaptainobvious is a glorious beacon of light


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elektra View Post
Indeed horror.. Lol

Some of the very best autosound vehicles in the world utilize them. You might be surprised to learn what excellent vehicles are running lower budget amps or class D amplifiers- and doing so VERY successfully.


The JL's are excellent amplifiers. Well designed, well executed and well supported. They fill the check boxes for almost all areas for me.

------------------------------------------------------
2016 Pennsylvania State Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- MECA Modex
2016 National Points Champion- IASCA Amateur
captainobvious is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2524
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South africa
Posts: 1,317

Thanks: 6
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 66 Elektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished roadElektra is on a distinguished road


iTrader: (1)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
Some of the very best autosound vehicles in the world utilize them. You might be surprised to learn what excellent vehicles are running lower budget amps or class D amplifiers- and doing so VERY successfully.


The JL's are excellent amplifiers. Well designed, well executed and well supported. They fill the check boxes for almost all areas for me.
That's what I say... If it checks the boxes then it is for you.. I don't like JL amps as they are too expensive here I can get amps that check my boxes for much less
Elektra is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-24-2015   #2525
DIYMA 500 Club
Upgrade Your Membership!
 
Victor_inox's Avatar
 
UNPLUGGED
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 8,274

12V Company:
Victory Sonics
Position:
Owner/ Engineer/Sales/Support

Thanks: 92
Thanked 46 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 150 Victor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the roughVictor_inox is a jewel in the rough


iTrader: (95)



Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jepalan View Post
Of course you do. There is profit in it for you. Don't get me wrong - I have no direct experience with your products, and have read many good reviews of the value and good performance your amps and PSUs offer. On the other hand it does seem a little strange that someone who is in the business of selling technology products agrees with the "technology is evil" preacher.

There is no many of good review there is only good reviews....

I`m not preaching technology is evil ,strange you came to that conclusion reading my posts.
What i`m saying that technology is not as simple as 3 sets of parameters you guys preaching. Never i said measurements are unimportant.
Funny things how you people love to put words in my mouth.

It seems like most people don't care to actually understand reality.
Victor_inox is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Location
Where you live
First name
Last name
Do you work in the 12 Volt industry?
Do you work in the 12 Volt industry?
Youtube Channel
Enter Your Youtube Username, And It will Be Linked To In Your Posts!
12V Industry - Company Name
Your company name.
12V Industry - Your Position
Your position in your company.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Ad Management by RedTyger

Home | User CP | Members List | New Posts | ITrader | Faq | Post Spy