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Old 03-10-2014   #351
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My ears might suck then. I don't even care about lossless. Mp3 256k is fine, sounds equal to CD quality imo.

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Old 03-10-2014   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCo View Post
Remember people are sensitive to different things.


A/B a stock c2k 4.0 and then listen to one of Matt R's class A biased amps. There is a huge difference there to my ears.

At the end of the day it's all about what matters to you.
Sure if there's an audible difference then we can measure it as well

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Old 03-10-2014   #353
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
Tested a $100 Sony HU yesterday, performed just as good as my Pioneer P99RS in the RMAA tests. I couldn't hear any difference from the raw output in my home audio setup either when they were properly level matched. Of course, the P99's DSP will make the system sound better ^^

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I am not a big fan of the p99rs either. I would not be surprised if you liked the raw sound of the Sony more in that case.

This is the state of the Car audio market. Most of the gear is only average at best; plain and simple. So it's understandable that the majority of it sounds the same to most people. Look at some of the high end sources on the Asian market, there is a big difference there.

And it's been my findings that the minor differences add up. It took a looong time to find the source units, amps, speakers, and dsp's that I liked the best for everyday use.

Look at the z400.2 that thing has a TON of Power but it sounds dull for full range output. It's a full range amp that should only be used for subs (it get's much better with mod's but stock is really dull... There is a case when you'd be better off buying a ppi 900.2 or whatever the model number is. Because that is a solid little amp and it really does well for the cost.

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Old 03-10-2014   #354
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I couldn't pick out my own system (home or car) 100% accurately 100% of the time. Sometimes it just sounds different. Some say it's the quality of the input power. I find it has more to do with my levels of rest, hunger, stress and listening fatigue (among other things.) Still, I have heard components which sound better, and those which sound worse. I have heard systems (with my own speakers) which can't compare to what I have, and other systems that completely blow it away. A meter telling me what my output, distortion, voltage, headroom etc may or may not be aren't going to mean diddly when I walk into a listening room and hear an open window on the sound - with rich tonality, vast soundstaging, pinpoint imaging, and you-are-there palpability. It's awesome when you first experience it, but chasing it can get very expensive very quickly.

I understand some people rely on the scientific method to prove a point or validate their beliefs.

What I don't understand is why those who can't hear much difference between cables, amps, DAC's or whatever have you - or can't faithfully reproduce and pick out a difference in whatever setting they set up - insist upon telling the rest of us that since they can t prove there is a difference, then there IS NO difference.

I invite you to visit an audio salon with high-end gear, and have them set up 2 different systems - one with affordable, off-the-shelf gear and one with high-falutin, mega-dollar snake-oil-conataining gear. The first can sound remarkably good. I can't guarantee the second will sound better to you, but if it does it can be a mind-blowing experience. If, however, it sounds no different to you - that does not mean that it sounds no different to me.

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Old 03-10-2014   #355
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I don't think anyone is arguing that you won't be able to hear a difference in sound. I think what they are arguing is that you could make them to sound the same. By using the scientific methods mentioned for measuring the equipment so that the output looks the same from a scientific standpoint (within a reasonable margin of variance) what you hear in a blind comparison is not going to be distinguishable.

Simply put (probably for the 100th time), if it measures the same, it will sound the same.


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Old 03-10-2014   #356
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjswarbrick View Post
I couldn't pick out my own system (home or car) 100% accurately 100% of the time. Sometimes it just sounds different. Some say it's the quality of the input power. I find it has more to do with my levels of rest, hunger, stress and listening fatigue (among other things.) Still, I have heard components which sound better, and those which sound worse. I have heard systems (with my own speakers) which can't compare to what I have, and other systems that completely blow it away. A meter telling me what my output, distortion, voltage, headroom etc may or may not be aren't going to mean diddly when I walk into a listening room and hear an open window on the sound - with rich tonality, vast soundstaging, pinpoint imaging, and you-are-there palpability. It's awesome when you first experience it, but chasing it can get very expensive very quickly.

I understand some people rely on the scientific method to prove a point or validate their beliefs.

What I don't understand is why those who can't hear much difference between cables, amps, DAC's or whatever have you - or can't faithfully reproduce and pick out a difference in whatever setting they set up - insist upon telling the rest of us that since they can t prove there is a difference, then there IS NO difference.

I invite you to visit an audio salon with high-end gear, and have them set up 2 different systems - one with affordable, off-the-shelf gear and one with high-falutin, mega-dollar snake-oil-conataining gear. The first can sound remarkably good. I can't guarantee the second will sound better to you, but if it does it can be a mind-blowing experience. If, however, it sounds no different to you - that does not mean that it sounds no different to me.
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Old 03-10-2014   #357
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjswarbrick View Post
I couldn't pick out my own system (home or car) 100% accurately 100% of the time. Sometimes it just sounds different. Some say it's the quality of the input power. I find it has more to do with my levels of rest, hunger, stress and listening fatigue (among other things.) Still, I have heard components which sound better, and those which sound worse. I have heard systems (with my own speakers) which can't compare to what I have, and other systems that completely blow it away. A meter telling me what my output, distortion, voltage, headroom etc may or may not be aren't going to mean diddly when I walk into a listening room and hear an open window on the sound - with rich tonality, vast soundstaging, pinpoint imaging, and you-are-there palpability. It's awesome when you first experience it, but chasing it can get very expensive very quickly.

I understand some people rely on the scientific method to prove a point or validate their beliefs.

What I don't understand is why those who can't hear much difference between cables, amps, DAC's or whatever have you - or can't faithfully reproduce and pick out a difference in whatever setting they set up - insist upon telling the rest of us that since they can t prove there is a difference, then there IS NO difference.

I invite you to visit an audio salon with high-end gear, and have them set up 2 different systems - one with affordable, off-the-shelf gear and one with high-falutin, mega-dollar snake-oil-conataining gear. The first can sound remarkably good. I can't guarantee the second will sound better to you, but if it does it can be a mind-blowing experience. If, however, it sounds no different to you - that does not mean that it sounds no different to me.
Psychoacoustics are very powerful. If you know that you're more subject to the effects of psychoacoustics (everyone is to some degree), then by all means, buy the more expensive gear that you think sounds better.

If you think, whether consciously or completely subconsciously, that the amp with Brax or McIntosh written on the top will sound better than the one with Kicker written on it... it will. Whether it does in reality or not. If your mind thinks it will, it will. So knowing that, if buying more expensive amps will make you enjoy your system more, then do it. That's why they make them. Just realize that the difference in sound lies only in your head, not in reality.

That's why those who know there isn't a difference insist there isn't a difference. Because we know that when presented with a blind test, using speakers, amplifiers, and music of your own choosing, you would not be able to correctly identify which amp you were listening to with much more accuracy than random guessing, no matter how much sleep you got, how good your health and nutrition was for the past few days, and if you got laid the night before.

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Old 03-10-2014   #358
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

okay, I'm going to bat for the audiophiles.

captainobvious had a test that demonstrated, no reliable outcome when different amps were adjusted for gain only.

nobody tightened up their (amps) frequency response, distortion, or noise numbers to a threshold beyond the limit of human hearing.

this is far from the amp challenge, it's exactly like what happens when people change amps in their own cars.

I have heard easily discernible differences between amplifiers with only this consideration.

I don't know if the amps were out of specs, or working with compromised components.

I don't know anything other than the fact that I bought them new, I installed them myself, I did it right and I heard differences.

anything else is traveling outside of a consumer threshold, it's going beyond the normal relationship between products and performance.

manufacturers make things, we buy things, there are differences in those things.
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Old 03-10-2014   #359
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

[QUOTE=strakele;2061888]If the difference between properly level matched amps that measure the same regardless of internal components, brand name, and price tag was noticeable, SOMEBODY would have taken Clark's $10k by now.

The fact is, not one single person has ever been able to accurately tell the difference between amps when they didn't know which one they were listening to. QUOTE]

I know two people who beat the Richard Clark Test. Neither was paid.

I had an OEM let me review their new amp technology and I told them what the THD curve looked like JUST BY LISTENING.

Can you make two amps some the same for a limited band, sure.

Too bad that's not how amps are used.

However, just because an amp cost more does not mean it sounds better.

The fact that some amps disappear and others have sonic signatures, means you just need to know what to listen for to pick out the difference BLIND TEST or NOT.

This is independent of the amps power.

But can I give the other amp the same sonic signature, sure.

Too bad most of go to the store and buy and amp and Wire it up.

In this case, one amp can be different.

But if OEM A makes and amp and OEM B makes and amp and they are basically the same amp, you may never hear a difference between OEM A or B. This is regardless of the fact that amp A is 3 times the cost of amp B.

Yes, I've done blind test and was 4 for 4 and 6 for 6 at correctly identifying A verses B.
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Old 03-10-2014   #360
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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I know two people who beat the Richard Clark Test. Neither was paid.

Link? Story? Proof of any kind? I did read that in the beginning of the challenge a couple people 'won' but that was before he increased the precision of level matching to .1dB - the matching was less accurate at the beginning, and therefore easier to identify a difference based on small level differences.

But can I give the other amp the same sonic signature, sure.

Assuming two amps sound different, if they can be made to sound the same with minimal effort, what's the benefit of getting one over the other, all else being relatively equal?

Yes, I've done blind test and was 4 for 4 and 6 for 6 at correctly identifying A verses B.

Where and when was this done? Who else was there?
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Old 03-10-2014   #361
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by tjswarbrick View Post
I couldn't pick out my own system (home or car) 100% accurately 100% of the time. Sometimes it just sounds different. Some say it's the quality of the input power. I find it has more to do with my levels of rest, hunger, stress and listening fatigue (among other things.) Still, I have heard components which sound better, and those which sound worse. I have heard systems (with my own speakers) which can't compare to what I have, and other systems that completely blow it away. A meter telling me what my output, distortion, voltage, headroom etc may or may not be aren't going to mean diddly when I walk into a listening room and hear an open window on the sound - with rich tonality, vast soundstaging, pinpoint imaging, and you-are-there palpability. It's awesome when you first experience it, but chasing it can get very expensive very quickly.

I understand some people rely on the scientific method to prove a point or validate their beliefs.

What I don't understand is why those who can't hear much difference between cables, amps, DAC's or whatever have you - or can't faithfully reproduce and pick out a difference in whatever setting they set up - insist upon telling the rest of us that since they can t prove there is a difference, then there IS NO difference.

I invite you to visit an audio salon with high-end gear, and have them set up 2 different systems - one with affordable, off-the-shelf gear and one with high-falutin, mega-dollar snake-oil-conataining gear. The first can sound remarkably good. I can't guarantee the second will sound better to you, but if it does it can be a mind-blowing experience. If, however, it sounds no different to you - that does not mean that it sounds no different to me.
And then there's others that can't prove it but by extension must have better ears or something above those others?

What happens when you're placed in front of equipment and lose the a/b/c blind test? You do realize how many people have failed those blind test? The only way those special ears have ever proven to hear something "different" consistently is when they know exactly which amplifier is playing or which RCA cable or Speaker Wire is being utilized.

Amplifiers do sound different from each other...but they all have the capacity to sound extremely similar; to the point that it's indistinguishable to another

So if you're telling me that straight out of a box, amps sound different...I agree. But if you're telling me that they'll always have a "signature" of sorts I disagree. Well, there is of course stand outs like tube amps. Why is it that we can easily tell a tube amp from any other and also consistently measure that distinguishable difference?

My opinion is that these ultra amazing audiophiles should have the capacity to setup all their equipment specifically to their taste with repeatable and measurable results vs. "I know a good amp when I hear it!" Because it's really hard to take you for your word when nobody has ever consistently and repeatedly called out one amp vs. another in a blind test.

I'm not trying to be a jerk and I apologize. It just baffles me that nobody has ever been able to consistently pass a/b blind tests but this thought process has led people to purchase $5k Power cords for their amplifier because it changes the sound characteristics. Am I crazy?


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Old 03-11-2014   #362
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

How about this:

If I'm not able to do anything more than change amps out, is it okay to say I can hear differences in similarly powered amps?


because that's what probably 80% of the people are arguing about. Their own perception bias set aside, the truth is they haven't matched gains, or set up a testing scheme to prove their ears.

I know I'm guilty of it. I admit it, I never went all the way and had people switching things out behind a door or wall in blind tests.

I also believe, operative word here, believe, that I did hear things like a Pioneer amp sounding a little dull on the top end, or my US Amps not being quite as clear as a PPI Art amp, same Power ratings. But the US Amps was better at bass?

Or how Alpine amps are great on highs but had trouble with 2 ohm loads on bass, and Rockford was pretty good at all frequencies.

Or Sony, freakin' old school Sony was super clean, and newer Sony, WALMART the blue Sony, kind of sucked... I had the 502's running mono into JBL T545's and they should have impressed me more...

anyways, if you've been in this hobby as long as I have, you'll pick up some associations and some subjective thoughts about amps that may or may not hold up in a test.
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Old 03-11-2014   #363
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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How about this:

If I'm not able to do anything more than change amps out, is it okay to say I can hear differences in similarly powered amps?


because that's what probably 80% of the people are arguing about. Their own perception bias set aside, the truth is they haven't matched gains, or set up a testing scheme to prove their ears.

I know I'm guilty of it. I admit it, I never went all the way and had people switching things out behind a door or wall in blind tests.

I also believe, operative word here, believe, that I did hear things like a Pioneer amp sounding a little dull on the top end, or my US Amps not being quite as clear as a PPI Art amp, same Power ratings. But the US Amps was better at bass?

Or how Alpine amps are great on highs but had trouble with 2 ohm loads on bass, and Rockford was pretty good at all frequencies.

Or Sony, freakin' old school Sony was super clean, and newer Sony, WALMART the blue Sony, kind of sucked... I had the 502's running mono into JBL T545's and they should have impressed me more...

anyways, if you've been in this hobby as long as I have, you'll pick up some associations and some subjective thoughts about amps that may or may not hold up in a test.
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Old 03-11-2014   #364
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Os Sony is the bomb... There is a reason why I have 4 OS Sony sources in my closet.

Or maybe I am just crazy; who can say really? lol
We're all crazy in this hobby... xD

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Old 03-11-2014   #365
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Os Sony is the bomb... There is a reason why I have 4 OS Sony sources in my closet.

Or maybe I am just crazy; who can say really? lol
some people think it's the Sanken output transistors.

like we can hear a transistor difference, in a blind test?

all I know is those transistors are expensive to replace, and didn't come on low-grade product back in the day. If you look at the bill of materials in the old Sony product, it was not corner cutting components. They spent money to Build those amps and it showed in the quality of the sound.

now it's all about mosfet outputs, but there was a period where using mosfets on the outputs was frowned upon, during that small window of time where amplifier manufacturers were at odds in their designs.

class d is doing away with a lot of the old advertising copy and uses techniques and components that weren't possible back then, so it's kind of unfair to put say, an old Harman Kardon CA260 vs. a JL HD amp, but it'd be fun to see what people thought about it, or if they could hear a difference in sonic signatures between those amps at reasonable levels, and gain matched. Maybe there was something to the claims of ultra wide bandwidth, maybe "high current capability" wasn't just a way of saying the amp met it's specs...
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It's like some of you guys saying that all bacon and cheese burgers all taste the same....even though some may have double cheese, some maybe all dressed and some with just mustard on it! Oh and don't get me started with the fries, yep they all taste the same...why wouldn't they? They all are the same Potatoe aren't they?.....similar sure (lol)

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here we go again, changes coming....why not!!!! YOLO
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Sound Suggestions View Post
It's like some of you guys saying that all bacon and cheese burgers all taste the same....even though some may have double cheese, some maybe all dressed and some with just mustard on it! Oh and don't get me started with the fries, yep they all taste the same...why wouldn't they? They all are the same Potatoe aren't they?.....similar sure (lol)

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as a sense, our hearing isn't as finely tuned a mechanism as taste is, I think that's part of the problem too.

and not everyone hears the same, but most everyone tastes similarly.

but going back to the idea that amp manufacturers putting high-end parts into their circuits and doing a lot of testing before approving an amp's recipe as suitable for production, is all just an exercise in overkill....

I think we need to figure out why an amp is made to perform to higher standards, or to more stringent thresholds of measurement, if anything under 1% is damn hard to tell one amp from another.

It's not just reliability concerns, unless...


hey, maybe that's why so many companies are just taking their business to China, they can't convince the buying public that one amp sounds better than another, so essentially they are all building the same amp, one that makes the most profits!


that's depressing.
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Old 03-11-2014   #368
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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It's like some of you guys saying that all bacon and cheese burgers all taste the same....even though some may have double cheese, some maybe all dressed and some with just mustard on it! Oh and don't get me started with the fries, yep they all taste the same...why wouldn't they? They all are the same Potatoe aren't they?.....similar sure (lol)

New to Tapatalk! It's not bad :-)

I think what we're saying is...if we prep all those burgers in the same manner and cook them in the same pan then they CAN taste VERY similar...to the point of being indistinguishable Fries too!

They will certainly vary prior to any of that though.


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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I agree to a degree, I believe manufacturers are subcontracting Chinese Build house due to cheaper costs and the consumers need and perception they we require a million watts from our amplifiers....I remember back in the day when 25 x 2 was plenty enough to drive almost the whole system

here we go again, changes coming....why not!!!! YOLO

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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
If you were in the area, I'd be willing to arrange a simple test which would allow you to hear exactly for yourself. Our tests included 50 watt per channel amps up to 150wpc amps...some old, some new, some cheap and some very pricey, some class A/B, some class D, some excellent Build quality, some...not so much. When they are all fed the exact same source simultaneously and properly level matched, all playing through the same equipment under the same conditions and in the same environment, I'd wager you will find it extremely difficult to tell the amplifiers apart. My test used Martin Logan electrostats which present a more difficult load for the amplifiers and are very revealing speakers. My testers had a very hard time with simple AX testing. I'd say trying to pick/determine an amplifier out of the lineup with any semblance of consitency would have been a lesson in futility.
I'd love to come down next time I'm in the area. Right now I'm in Diego Garcia, about 9,600 miles from NYC. It may be till 2016 till I get back, but I will be back.

And then you gotta come down to DC, where the monster amps reside under one or two roofs.

Deal?
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Old 03-11-2014   #371
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So you're on vacation banging Brits and Navy chicks. lol.

Man I muss Diego. Best deployment ever.

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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by tjswarbrick View Post

What I don't understand is why those who can't hear much difference between cables, amps, DAC's or whatever have you - or can't faithfully reproduce and pick out a difference in whatever setting they set up - insist upon telling the rest of us that since they can t prove there is a difference, then there IS NO difference.
Thank You, this is the gist of what I'm saying.

We have a huge bell curve in society for people's talent level in all sorts of endeavors....sports, academics, business acumen, etc. Not everyone's hearing ability is created equal. Some people are legitimately superior than others, often much more superior.

There are people who cannot even hear the difference between home speakers that are out of phase and one that is in phase (a very noticeable difference).

Also others who cannot distinguish what analog sound is qualitatively outside of tape hiss or cracks/pops. There's a very real sound to good analog tape/vinyl and if you cannot hear it, don't tell me I can't.

Again, we are very P.C. in the audio world. I don't know why. We need more soup nazis in here to set the record straight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
okay, I'm going to bat for the audiophiles.

captainobvious had a test that demonstrated, no reliable outcome when different amps were adjusted for gain only.

nobody tightened up their (amps) frequency response, distortion, or noise numbers to a threshold beyond the limit of human hearing.

this is far from the amp challenge, it's exactly like what happens when people change amps in their own cars.

I have heard easily discernible differences between amplifiers with only this consideration.

I don't know if the amps were out of specs, or working with compromised components.

I don't know anything other than the fact that I bought them new, I installed them myself, I did it right and I heard differences.

anything else is traveling outside of a consumer threshold, it's going beyond the normal relationship between products and performance.

manufacturers make things, we buy things, there are differences in those things.
Well I rarely ever compare amps on Power ratings, and it's pretty rare to get two amps I would consider that even put out the same amount of power.

And I've pointed out that there are amplifiers that don't put out a ton of Power that sound better than those that do.

This idea that you can tune all amplifiers to sound the same......it's almost insulting to hear that.

There's no level matching for some for some of the big boy amps I've heard in my life. None whatsoever.

[QUOTE=2DEEP2;2062005]
Quote:
Originally Posted by strakele View Post
If the difference between properly level matched amps that measure the same regardless of internal components, brand name, and price tag was noticeable, SOMEBODY would have taken Clark's $10k by now.

The fact is, not one single person has ever been able to accurately tell the difference between amps when they didn't know which one they were listening to. QUOTE]

I know two people who beat the Richard Clark Test. Neither was paid.

I had an OEM let me review their new amp technology and I told them what the THD curve looked like JUST BY LISTENING.

Can you make two amps some the same for a limited band, sure.

Too bad that's not how amps are used.

However, just because an amp cost more does not mean it sounds better.

The fact that some amps disappear and others have sonic signatures, means you just need to know what to listen for to pick out the difference BLIND TEST or NOT.

This is independent of the amps power.

But can I give the other amp the same sonic signature, sure.

Too bad most of go to the store and buy and amp and Wire it up.

In this case, one amp can be different.

But if OEM A makes and amp and OEM B makes and amp and they are basically the same amp, you may never hear a difference between OEM A or B. This is regardless of the fact that amp A is 3 times the cost of amp B.

Yes, I've done blind test and was 4 for 4 and 6 for 6 at correctly identifying A verses B.
I can totally buy that with regards to your performance in the blind test.

Also, more expensive doesn't necessarily mean better gear. That's another part of the audio world that's super challenging.....$5k gear that sounds great and $20k gear that sounds like crap.

BTW, I heard the amp challenge is with test tones? Is that correct? If so, that really is a cheap way out and nullifies the test in my opinion on a stupid technicality.



Quote:
Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT View Post
And then there's others that can't prove it but by extension must have better ears or something above those others?

What happens when you're placed in front of equipment and lose the a/b/c blind test? You do realize how many people have failed those blind test? The only way those special ears have ever proven to hear something "different" consistently is when they know exactly which amplifier is playing or which RCA cable or Speaker Wire is being utilized.

Amplifiers do sound different from each other...but they all have the capacity to sound extremely similar; to the point that it's indistinguishable to another

So if you're telling me that straight out of a box, amps sound different...I agree. But if you're telling me that they'll always have a "signature" of sorts I disagree. Well, there is of course stand outs like tube amps. Why is it that we can easily tell a tube amp from any other and also consistently measure that distinguishable difference?

My opinion is that these ultra amazing audiophiles should have the capacity to setup all their equipment specifically to their taste with repeatable and measurable results vs. "I know a good amp when I hear it!" Because it's really hard to take you for your word when nobody has ever consistently and repeatedly called out one amp vs. another in a blind test.

I'm not trying to be a jerk and I apologize. It just baffles me that nobody has ever been able to consistently pass a/b blind tests but this thought process has led people to purchase $5k power cords for their amplifier because it changes the sound characteristics. Am I crazy?
As I've said before, the process of buying high end gear is not of the blind test nature. And even if it was, it should be a lot more than just 30 seconds on for A and 30 seconds on for B.

I'd love to see the results of a 30 minutes for each piece of gear, blind test.
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

the people who say "just let me take you down to Harry's high end audio salon, you'll hear a difference by God" are also being a little mischievous with the truth.

A salesman's job is to create those differences in your mind, so you can justify one model over the other, because once you lock in on the better one, you're purchase ready. The obstacle for the salesman is overcome with your certainty that you're getting the better item.

This simple logic, the poetic license of salesmen in their craft, precludes any gesture to really "see a difference" for yourself. If you are so sure of your abilities, try and tell the salesman to leave you alone for 1 hour, while you decide for yourself if you can hear a difference. Chances are you'll be politely refused. Some excuse will be available, "I'm sorry sir, we can't let customers alone with the equipment. We've tried it in the past and had broken product result from it, so as a policy we cannot allow you to sell yourself. I'm here and paid very well to sell you. I'm a professional sir, I do this for a living. Leave the information to me, and I'll guarantee your satisfaction. Now come this way, I have a room all ready to go for your extended audition. But first, let me tell you why this model will impress you with it's timbre, it's complete blackness of background, it's noiseless and distortion free circuitry is unparalleled in the audio realm"


haha...
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Old 03-11-2014   #374
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
so being paraded around by salesmen trying to earn their kids' college tuition, in front of who knows what kind of electronic wizardry, in a "room" that looks nothing, sounds nothing like the one you'll set up in at home, is going to trump learning about the differences in speakers from the actual designers of the speakers on these forums?

did not know that.
If you hear the right systems setup by the right people, absolutely yes.

As I've said before, there's a proper spectrum of good sound just like there's a proper spectrum of good music.

Designing a Speaker on 100% science, 0% art is a recipe for something that will okay at best, terrible at worst. Designing 100% art and 0% science is a crap shoot from amazing to terrible.

Need to have a healthy blend of both.

The way to design good gear is to have the vetted ear voice it. One guy designs it, the other listens to it. Makes recommendations, it gets tweaked, listen again, and continue on this path until you reach something nice.

If the designer or engineer does not know what good sound is, he will not be able to create it by himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeak9798 View Post
Then why have people like yourself with all of this real world experience been unable to prove that superior hearing ability in scientifically valid testing? It's not me spouting some mantra, it's the facts of the matter based on the evidence both from our understanding of electrical theory and the demonstrated inability of the human auditory system to identify a difference in sound outside of those listed.

Prove otherwise. Conduct a scientifically valid experiment that proves your point....because so far no one else has been successful at it that I'm aware of. Every experiment I'm aware of does not support your claims.
Nice to know, and I'm comfortable not having to prove it.....because I don't think it's possible to prove it if only for one simple reason:

It would mean that you would have to admit you were wrong. And nobody in this community likes to do that (egos are too big). Coming out of the closet would be easier than saying "oh shhh, you're right, I was wrong."

Case in point, some guys have been proven wrong in the court of law ( a certain audio store I know). But he's got gear and a few hours, and a lot of patience.

WTF am I gonna do with just WORDS?



Quote:
Originally Posted by strakele View Post
If the difference between properly level matched amps that measure the same regardless of internal components, brand name, and price tag was noticeable, SOMEBODY would have taken Clark's $10k by now.

The fact is, not one single person has ever been able to accurately tell the difference between amps when they didn't know which one they were listening to. Until someone can, all the pretty marketing prose, anecdotal sighted experiences, and 'professional' reviews mean absolutely nothing.

Fellippe I bet I could find a couple of guys who would pay your airfare and room if you flew out one weekend and took the test that captainobvious set up and were able to back up your claims in the blind test.
I would like to take the test, but with one caveat....

I supply my amps of choice to go along with what's provided.

Don't get it twisted guys....I'm not here to tell the world I can hear the difference between a PDX and a JL slash and every single amp ever made.

But I'm here to tell you that a few of the amps I like versus others.....I'm very willing to play that game. I might not get 100% but I sure as hell won't get 0%, haha.

Where was this event held out of curiosity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
I've heard systems in the $200000 range. Sounds great... my $4000 sounds just as good. Price does not equal performance. I've done several blind tests, many many equipment swaps both in my home audio system and car. system. What matters?

# Source material (recording)
# Speakers
# Room treatments
# Power
# DSP (car audio)

Amp classes, highend cables, highend source units, high end DACs etc etc. I call BS on that. Differences that can't be measured cannot be heard, period.
LOL, why do you cling so hard to that glass half full mentality?

I want to be inspired in life, to experience greatness. I don't want my sh*** Yugo to all of a sudden be equal to a Ferrari.....I want the Ferrari!

My biggest excitement in home audio gear is as follows:

1. Power amps
2. Pre amps
3. Speakers
4. DACs
5. Turntables
6. Phono stages
7. Cables/interconnects

The price points for Power amps that I want to hit are : $3000, $7000, $10,000, $25,000.

Pre-amps around $5k (add $3k more for phono stage).

Speakers, a custom set around $12-14k would suffice for a very, very long time.

DAC around $3500
Turntable around $6-7k
Cables/interconnects about $3-4k

This is a lot of money, yes, but in the grand scheme of things it's not too insane. Cars, boats, watches, luxury real estate, etc. can and do cost more than this and in most cases won't be as good an investment for enjoyment and value.

If you're topping out at $4k, that's kinda cool in the short term but when you get bored after 6 months or a year, then you're stuck. Been there, done that, it's terrible.

You would have to become a near billionaire to be "done" with this stuff. Much more enjoyable path.

I also live a life of vices. A different mentality on this stuff.

I see it as more of a drug than a hobby.
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

very enlightening.

I agree to some extent, that there is the art of Speaker voicing that goes with home audio passive crossover design, and the matching of drivers to not clash in timbre, dynamic response, or polar response, directivity.

but in Car audio, each Car is a unique test bed, and the old rules are literally obsoleted from the start.

each car audio component, HAS to meet with a standard, there's no easy win with passive crossover voicing that makes a cheap set of drivers sound quite good in practice.

this is why I think it's even more important than the old fall back, "you can't hear anything below 60 db at 35 mph on up, anyways."

you have to literally match everything in place, and deal with a reflection prone nightmare of uneven seating position biased, compartment resonance inducing, vibration transmitting, buzz box on tires that rumble so loud you need 12 db of bass gain just to hear your bottom end...

so no, I think we're all hitting the wall when we say we're actually paying for performance that is prerequisite with price. An all Cadence system may not wow you on the prestige but it has all the working parts to make you blink when you weren't aware of what you were listening to, in a demo.
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