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Old 03-27-2014   #501
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
But honestly, I don't know much about the in depths of amp emulation and DSP. I know I have a guitar processor that has amplifier emulations in it, and they are sort of close to the real thing...but not exactly the same.
I heard quite a few VST plugins that sounds better than real thing with more adjustability, stand alone guitar DSP lucking processing power. Any dual core CPU is light years faster.

It seems like most people don't care to actually understand reality.
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Old 03-27-2014   #502
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by strakele View Post
Right, I think everyone's on the same page as to playing amps in their non-clipping range. Basically, power, required features, and reliability are the only performance aspects worth paying for. Not 'passion in engineering resulting in tighter bass, a warmer, purer midrange, and more airy highs.'
Good posts.

Something I previously wrote in the thread linked in my sig:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obnoxious self quote
There are a great many factors that go into an amplifier purchase. I personally feel that part quality and build quality are very important and contribute to the performance in the long run as well as reliability. I think aesthetics are important as well to many people and beautiful designs like the Audison AV/Thesis, Mosconi's, Zed's, etc are hard to acquire in a lower price range. I also think that things like power configuration and output, size , external noise (fans, etc), customer service, etc. play a very important role.

Choices in many of our car audio purchases are very emotional. Whatever configuration gives you the best overall emotional response to your sound/music is certainly a winning one. Sometimes it's about the "specs" for people, sometimes it's about performance vs low cost, sometimes it about loyalty to a manufacturer that has done right by you, sometimes it's simply a beautifully engineered piece of artistic audio brilliance that you have to have.

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Old 03-27-2014   #503
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
I'll pay more if something gets me closer to my desired outcome simply because time is money.

And I'd pay even more if JL would fix those atrocious plugs on the HDs.

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk

You mean stop using locktite on them?

Yeah I would prefer a panel mounted termination point instead of the plugs too.

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Old 03-27-2014   #504
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Just trying to illustrate where it would take more than just an EQ adjustment here and there to make amps sound the same.
this is the crux of it, to me.

we don't have Bob Carver skill.

our new-fangled DSP products at the consumer level, aren't giving you that Bob Carver quality in matching components. He was in there with multiple distortion potentiometers, each harmonic accounted for.

I don't remember any consumer product that did that, except perhaps fixed as in the Aphex exciter or ModWaves, BassWaves, whatever they are called.

and we don't know how he matched phase response, he had a lot of wizardry going on there.

this remains true:

if you buy an amp and listen to it, you will develop a memory for what it is supposed to sound like, and when you put another amp in the same system, it's going to sound different.

whether or not you match gains, turn pre-amp screws, adjust all the user options, it's not going to sound like the other amp.

some of it's psychological, but much of it is based on the amplifiers, and doing measurements and tests, isn't changing that.

just because someone out there can adjust your amp using extra equipment to sound more like another amp doesn't mean you can too, even if you are in possession of the super duty DSP boxes.

Nor will you, let's not forget that as a rule nobody's buying amps to match a sound another amp makes; they are more validated in trying to match a reference that is analog and it's natural, and it's as simple as hearing someone speak.

I hope the board starts recognizing the differences in amps again, I liked that better because it more closely resembles my own preconceived notions, and actual experience. This thing where everybody wants to make amps sound the same, is tiring and it's not even true for the most part. Only electronic wizards can accomplish the feat, for the rest of us the amps do sound different and will be bought and sold based on what we think of the way they sound. If that means we keep getting more powerful amps, that to me is okay. I'd rather assign the differences I hear to varying power levels than some other focal point like distortion or phase, and especially noise since I can't do anything about that. I can always buy more powerful amps though.
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Old 03-27-2014   #505
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My only input to this wonderful debate.....I really enjoyed reading this final summation by cajunner.......I agree.

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Old 03-27-2014   #506
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
this is the crux of it, to me.

we don't have Bob Carver skill.

our new-fangled DSP products at the consumer level, aren't giving you that Bob Carver quality in matching components. He was in there with multiple distortion potentiometers, each harmonic accounted for.

I don't remember any consumer product that did that, except perhaps fixed as in the Aphex exciter or ModWaves, BassWaves, whatever they are called.

and we don't know how he matched phase response, he had a lot of wizardry going on there.

this remains true:

if you buy an amp and listen to it, you will develop a memory for what it is supposed to sound like, and when you put another amp in the same system, it's going to sound different.

whether or not you match gains, turn pre-amp screws, adjust all the user options, it's not going to sound like the other amp.

some of it's psychological, but much of it is based on the amplifiers, and doing measurements and tests, isn't changing that.

just because someone out there can adjust your amp using extra equipment to sound more like another amp doesn't mean you can too, even if you are in possession of the super duty DSP boxes.

Nor will you, let's not forget that as a rule nobody's buying amps to match a sound another amp makes; they are more validated in trying to match a reference that is analog and it's natural, and it's as simple as hearing someone speak.

I hope the board starts recognizing the differences in amps again, I liked that better because it more closely resembles my own preconceived notions, and actual experience. This thing where everybody wants to make amps sound the same, is tiring and it's not even true for the most part. Only electronic wizards can accomplish the feat, for the rest of us the amps do sound different and will be bought and sold based on what we think of the way they sound. If that means we keep getting more powerful amps, that to me is okay. I'd rather assign the differences I hear to varying power levels than some other focal point like distortion or phase, and especially noise since I can't do anything about that. I can always buy more powerful amps though.
Sig worthy next to what Lycan already said (in my sig)

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I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 03-27-2014   #507
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Most buying amps and everything else for that matter based on their personal beliefs, some of those believes complete crap but nonetheless.
Try selling something with no name recognition?
People want brand name, mistakenly thinking that it somehow correlates with good quality.
If there no information on the net they usually skip in favor if inferior product with known to masses name.
most buyers will prefer POlk audio to herz or HAT or scanspeak.
I have two solid audio in classified I can`t sell for a few month now.
I know price is right and building quality simply outstanding. Sound better than Focal2.150 I A/B compared it with. That just prove my point, I sold JL XD amps I haven`t even try to sell but not solids.

It seems like most people don't care to actually understand reality.
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Old 03-28-2014   #508
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

OEM car stereos are EQ'd quite a bit to make them sound decent. Some are actually pretty nice, better than a number of "SQ" setups I've heard from a tonal balance point of view. Mostly because they understand the concept of not sucking out midrange and rolling off highs.

And they often accomplish this with s*** drivers as well.

However, their limitation is and always will be a lack of real dynamic range, SPL, bass and a sound that is often not as present in the cabin. Part of that is the lack of real amplifications, and also drivers.

But for the price and convenience it's not so bad.

That ELS system in the Acura TL is legit.

So I bring this up because here is an example of "EQ" as the savior to a system.

Grayson, I submit to you that you would be hard pressed to get a JL slash or Alpine PDX amp to mimic the sound of a Milbert. 1 dB of change....really??

Part of the problem is even if you can magically find an EQ setting that is close (after a lot of bands have been moved around), the sound of amplifiers is not linear throughout the "rev range". The sound of amplifiers as you push them changes. Over a variety of music played at different SPL levels, I really don't see it happening.

And then there are the other aspects that can't be simulated.

I notice how many setups can sound pretty good at low SPL, but the louder you crank, the harder it sounds. This is where you tube amp particularly shines.

The sound of the Phoenix Gold MS series, Xtant X604 and Milbert amps were all awesome out of the box running a fully passive system, with no EQ. The MS was the most powerful, the Milbert the smoothest, and the Xtant was right in the middle. All had a rather recognizable difference immediately upon listening. And I wouldn't have ideas of trying to make one emulate the other.

The Alpine PDX and JL slash amps couldn't hack it in any regard.....smoothness, bass output, midrange, dynamics, etc.

For $500-600 more (if even that much), you get instant guaranteed results. Or you can save the money and pray you can match it (although buying an EQ and spending a ton of time tuning it, is not "free" either).

Still will stick to my guns about high end amps, but the argument about $ and time is legit.
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Old 03-28-2014   #509
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
Amps don`t sounds the same, they should in theory but life would be boring.
LOLOLOL.

Now we are getting somewhere.
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Old 03-28-2014   #510
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by porscheman View Post
where exactly on any piece of electronic test equipment are the settings to see air and immediancy?
If you don't have the ears for this sorta stuff then gear will not help you.

There are people in this world who cannot appreciate the driving experience of an Italian exotic vs. a fast Japanese car. They say they have similar skidpad #s, slalom speeds, lap the race track at similar speeds, etc.

But one car inevitably is just more fun and ENGAGING to drive.

And haven't you wondered why a Ferrari or Lamborghini just has a sound that most other exotics cannot match? They can be similar sounding, but never QUITE LIKE IT.

You can't measure EVERYTHING in life. Sorry bro.

Somethings you have to do by ear, trial and error.
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Old 03-28-2014   #511
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I know for a fact that amps sound different "when you push them". That is close to/at clipping. Heard cheap class-D amps with serious rail-sticking issues that sounded horrible once you pushed them too far, that degradation was NOT subtle. But in the range where the non-linear distortion is -60dB below fundamental or even further down, I find it very hard to believe that there's any difference related to anything else than frequency response. If an amp measure flat into resistive and reactive loads at any power level within its limits, it wont sound different from another amp that measures the same if non-linear distortion is below -60dB or so. It doesn't matter what brand, price, operating class or technology is used...

I still think the amp discussion is ridiculous. Get powerful and efficient amp from a well known quality brand and be done with it. Even among those who believe there are differences call the difference "subtle". If you're not a "believer" and compete at the highest level with the car off in a quiet environment, what's the damn point of all this???
DSP (tuning), install and speakers are the components that everyone can agree on changes the sound in ways that cannot be debated. There is a reason WHY these threads keep on going like forever, know why? Because so many don't believe that amps and other stuff got a "character" that cannot be measured. If the difference was anything but "subtle" these discussions wouldn't occur in the first place.

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Old 03-28-2014   #512
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
If you don't have the ears for this sorta stuff then gear will not help you.

There are people in this world who cannot appreciate the driving experience of an Italian exotic vs. a fast Japanese car. They say they have similar skidpad #s, slalom speeds, lap the race track at similar speeds, etc.

But one car inevitably is just more fun and ENGAGING to drive.

And haven't you wondered why a Ferrari or Lamborghini just has a sound that most other exotics cannot match? They can be similar sounding, but never QUITE LIKE IT.

You can't measure EVERYTHING in life. Sorry bro.

Somethings you have to do by ear, trial and error.
Lol. That was a really really bad analogy. Don't compare electronics with feelings. It's like you're admitting that what you hear is nothing but placebo.

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Old 03-28-2014   #513
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
If you don't have the ears for this sorta stuff then gear will not help you.

There are people in this world who cannot appreciate the driving experience of an Italian exotic vs. a fast Japanese car. They say they have similar skidpad #s, slalom speeds, lap the race track at similar speeds, etc.

But one car inevitably is just more fun and ENGAGING to drive.

And haven't you wondered why a Ferrari or Lamborghini just has a sound that most other exotics cannot match? They can be similar sounding, but never QUITE LIKE IT.

You can't measure EVERYTHING in life. Sorry bro.

Somethings you have to do by ear, trial and error.
The signal coming out of an amp is an ELECTRICAL signal. Not magic. It can be measured. Period.

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Old 03-28-2014   #514
 
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Urg!!!!! Can't take it anymore people, unscribing from this thread! There will never be a compromise

New to Tapatalk! It's not bad :-)

here we go again, changes coming....why not!!!! YOLO
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Old 03-28-2014   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainobvious View Post
You mean stop using locktite on them?

Yeah I would prefer a panel mounted termination point instead of the plugs too.
I don't mind the plugs but they don't need to be SO tight that you need pliers to remove them. It defeats the purpose of a removable plug. Love the amps though.

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Old 03-28-2014   #516
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I agree with cajunner as well, and was exactly the point I was trying to illustrate as well.

The only thing you can say (and was proved by Bob Carver) is, all amps if they measure the same will sound the same. Measuring has more to do with just the FR of the amp.

Now in a car where we have such lovely listening environments, the degree of how much differences can be heard or not be heard is up in the air.
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Old 03-28-2014   #517
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Pliers were used on mine...so was a flat blade screw driver a time or two.

I feel your pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
I don't mind the plugs but they don't need to be SO tight that you need pliers to remove them. It defeats the purpose of a removable plug. Love the amps though.

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Old 03-28-2014   #518
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
If you don't have the ears for this sorta stuff then gear will not help you.

There are people in this world who cannot appreciate the driving experience of an Italian exotic vs. a fast Japanese car. They say they have similar skidpad #s, slalom speeds, lap the race track at similar speeds, etc.

But one car inevitably is just more fun and ENGAGING to drive.

And haven't you wondered why a Ferrari or Lamborghini just has a sound that most other exotics cannot match? They can be similar sounding, but never QUITE LIKE IT.

You can't measure EVERYTHING in life. Sorry bro.

Somethings you have to do by ear, trial and error.
He won't understand your analogy, he's a Porsche guy

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I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 03-28-2014   #519
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by strakele View Post
I'm sure that many of the RC tests involved a high end tube amp and a cheap class d or other amp, and we all know how those tests turned out once the amps were properly level and FR matched.

Even if distortion profiles aren't the same, look at their levels! The highest distortion peak the graphs posted above is like 70db down from the fundamental. So if you're listening to music at 90db which isn't really that loud, you think you can hear a difference in sound at one particular frequency at 20db (which is 128x quieter than the music)? Give me a freaking break. You'd need to be listening critically to some good speakers in a very quiet room to hear distortion 20db below the fundamental. But 70db? Not a chance. That's the same level of difference as saying that you can hear a person whispering while in the front row of a rock concert. Not possible by even the most golden of human ears.
Here's the link I wanted to post (the website wasn't available last time):
The Decware Audiophile Tube Amplifier / Model ZEN TORII MKIII
Just go down to "Here is a distortion graph of a typical push pull amplifier:" For folks that want to read up on harmonics.

Kelvin

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Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 03-28-2014   #520
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
If you don't have the ears for this sorta stuff then gear will not help you.

There are people in this world who cannot appreciate the driving experience of an Italian exotic vs. a fast Japanese car. They say they have similar skidpad #s, slalom speeds, lap the race track at similar speeds, etc.

But one car inevitably is just more fun and ENGAGING to drive.

And haven't you wondered why a Ferrari or Lamborghini just has a sound that most other exotics cannot match? They can be similar sounding, but never QUITE LIKE IT.

You can't measure EVERYTHING in life. Sorry bro.

Somethings you have to do by ear, trial and error.
This sounds like psychoacoustics

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Old 03-28-2014   #521
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Default

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Originally Posted by Golden Ear View Post
This sounds like psychoacoustics

Or psycho something, lol.


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Old 03-28-2014   #522
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Ear View Post
This sounds like psychoacoustics
Does he need to do a blind drive test to prove that he can enjoy one car over another and tell them apart?

Kelvin

Lycan
Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 03-28-2014   #523
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Entirely different and not comparable in any way.

And the decaware page still doesn't help the argument. All it shows is that while it has even order harmonics, they are 20db above the level of the odd order harmonics of the other amp. Again, id challenge anyone to hear harmonics that are 70db down, 2nd or 3rd order. Decaware seems to be implying that having a certain type of distortion in a reproduction system is a good thing, when really the goal in a reproduction system would be to have as little distortion as possible. Unless your not trying to faithfully reproduce the source.

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http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-timer-sq.html

Last edited by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL; 03-28-2014 at 11:00 AM..
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Old 03-28-2014   #524
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Bye bye 3" widebands and little midranges...they will never faithfully reproduce the dynamics of the live source of sound, say a piano or drum kit.

Neither will small midbasses or subwoofers.

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Originally Posted by TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL View Post
Unless your not trying to faithfully reproduce the source.
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Old 03-28-2014   #525
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

^absolutely agreed. Dont tell fg79. He'll tell you that with the right amp, a 6.5" midbass is all you need.

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http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-timer-sq.html
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