DIYMobileAudio.com Car Stereo Forum banner

HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

423K views 4K replies 275 participants last post by  audiocholic 
#1 ·
I have used several amps over the past 6 years ranging from RF, LP, McIntosh, MTX, PPI, ARC AUDIO, POLK AUDIO, JBL, ZED, LANZAR OPTI, JL AUDIO, KICKER, ECLIPSE, Etc, Etc. While some amps did have a sound that was pleasing to the ear, I noticed that amps with higher power ratings set to a decent pair of speakers whether they were separates or coaxials sounded just as good as the so called higher end amps. My point is an 100 watt x 4 channel of a good brand sounded just as clean, crisp and clear as the so called higher end brands such as Brax, McIntosh, etc. The same applied to bass as well. I swapped out several good brand of amps with higher end amps to notice very little difference in sound quality using a sealed enclosure. If this is the case, why spend so much money on the so-called higher end brands?
 
#1,519 ·
There is no frills- no gimmicks car amplifiers, no crossovers no bass boosters and such, amps usually cost more than fancy marketing driven amps with all that build in.
 
#1,522 ·
now i have not gone through the full thread but i had to say something. EVERY amp has its own sound. true its hard to find a way to A-B each brand to find one you like but a good audio shop will make sure their demo board is set up properly and even though they are in a different enviorment but any good ear or anyone who knows what to listen to (taking about SQ and not SPL so the person needs to know what TRUE good SQ sounds like). at all the shops i have worked at, managed, or just built the display boards i have always been able to hear a difference in quality of amps. now it does also matter what kind of speakers are being playing along with the type of head unit and the quality of the install parts. everything in the system plays major rolls in who things sound. some head units cause amps to sound warmer because of the quality of the inputs. example did an install with a Sony (customer had to have it) and at the shop i worked at install all XTANT amps (the removable cover ones where the chip sets were needed to adjust them) along with ADS 336is (the install was awhile ago) and the XTANT hex 12 subs with a cut through on f-150 Harley truck. after spending hours trying to tune the truck to sound good (because we knew what the amps and speakers were capable of sounding like) but no matter what we did it was bright as hell and mid bass sucked and the subs were super punchy (more then they should have been). so just to test we swapped out the deck to a clarion dxz835MP (with dual 24 bit dac also one of my favorite decks still using one today, the sony said it was 24 bit dacs and high voltage pre out) but as soon as we put in the clarion the system can alive and sounded so bitchen, warm, clear, crisp, subs sounded great, it was a night a day difference. needless to say customer kept the clarion. now in my personal car i have REALM amps (SCOSCHE/efx high end amp line well was) witch i have a 150x2 and 1100 or 1200 mono. all hooked to a clarion 835 and old school Memphis msq6 (old high end comp set with orange baskets still one of my fav speakers ever) and everyone who sits in my car goes wow sounds great how many speakers and how many mid bass do i have. when i show them what i have just two 6 1/2 comps with silk tweets and one 12 in a vented box, they are always shocked. its super warm mid bass for days only thing is to some people the highs are not bright enough witch i hate bright tweets that go tstststststs. well i swapped out my 150x2 true AB amp and install the MMATS HiFi-6150D (bitchen amp 150x6) but only using the front two channels, the warmth was gone and mid bass went down and over all i was very unimpressed. ended up taking it out. even the sq4100 has a warmer sq sound the the 6 channel. (still have yet to hear a awesome sq system with class d amps not saying its not there but i have not heard it) but that was in my system in my car. what im trying to say is all amps sound different (ab, tube, and D) and anyone with a decent ear will be able to hear a difference if they have a good way to a-b test the amps. plus it all depends on what other gear is in the car like head unit (also if using CD, ipod, ipod format quality, mp3, or the best dvd audio), speakers, the quality of install accessories and most importantly the system needs to be install CORRECTLY and tuned correctly. just think about it this way someone can have a car with the biggest badass motor, with a fully built rear end and nice wheels. but if all the connecting parts are junk (aka install accessories rca's power wire etc), suspension in stock and stock tires the car will go fast then before but not anywhere as fast as it could go if the connecting parts were matched (match but doesnt mean same brand im not a fan of a full same brand system). plus different head units playing different sources will also make amps sound different also depends on the speakers. but most importantly the install needs to be done correctly. i have heard some car that i was impressed on the sq when they were using low to mid end equipment and also been very disappointed in sq on some cars that were full hi end but crappy install. now if adding a processor in the mix that can change things majorly. plus im sure (i have not played with too many processors so cant truly say) each processor will produce different quality of sound. cheap experiment to prove my point would be if there were components try to swap out just the cross overs. then see how they sounds. maybe it will surprise you. same goes with amps. even if its the same power out put and same speakers but each amp is built with different power supplys, different caps, different preamps, etc, witch all leads to different types of sound going to the speakers (i say different type of sound because it may not be a bad thing or even a good thing just different type of sound). also just swap out head unit theres another test that can be done. i can tell a big difference between my clarion 835mp, alpine cda9815, eclipse 8053, eclipse 8443, old alpines like the true SQ old school, pioneer (old upper end one not sure the model but it wasnt cheap), and many other decks i tried. they all had their own sound some were good sounding some where just bla and flat and i always go back to the trusty 835mp. but again that is what i have found best for my set up with my car and i have about 500lbs of sound deadening witch also makes a huge difference. so again goes to install quality along with matching the right components (i dont mean matching brand i never heard and yet to hear a full brand matching system sound amazing) just match the right quality stuff together. also any REAL high end shops will work with anyone who is truly serious about getting a new amp that if the customer is not happy with the sq they should (well the store i managed) would try a few other amps until it has the sound the customer likes. PLUS ONE MAJOR THING IS everyone is different and will hear things differently, so one person may love it one may hate it. its all preference but if anyone is saying all amps or even all amps that are in the same quality class sound the same truly do not know what they are talking about and must not have any real experience with different set ups. i was luck enough to be in car audio for over 12 years and about 6 of them was installing and managing shops so i was able to try out different amps, speakers, head units, wires, etc and i learned what i wanted for my own system that way i got the sound i was looking for. tube amps sound extremely warm (but sometimes they lack the highs also on tube amp i learned that its better to get the biggest (most power output) you can so the amp does work as hard, since they can tend to loose their sq when all the way cranked (depending on the brand that is), also class d amps are great for subs and small space setups but i have yet to hear a true sq system YET not saying its not there but with out using any processor other then whats in the deck i would bet money any day that a true class AB amp with sound richer warmer and better then any class d if the person wants TRUE SQ and that person knows what TRUE SQ sounds like(i have talked to many people who think they know SQ until they here a TRUE SQ car and they its funny to watch them rethink everything they thought they knew. now the bet on class ab vs class D amps on mids and highs for SQ will stand until im proven wrong (witch someday will happen HOPEFULLY but until that day i will keep saying that AB amps will out perform class d amps and class D is for subs only). also just think about this your system is only as good and the weakest link in the chain. so make sure if you really want SQ take your time matching products up and also make sure you use good quality install parts. it will be worth it in the end even if you have to slowly build your system it will be worth it. now there are some cases where some things like high end RCA's where it wont be a noticeable difference like monster RCAs are a joke and they sound the same as other high end cables for half the cost. but like i said any REAL TRUE HONEST UPPER to high end shop should be there and help you decide and will be honest if the $ is worth it (well thats how i used to do things i made sure to never sell so called snake oil products to people who true cared and only did that when either the person was a prick, it was a show car (sponsored), or thats just what the person wanted but i still tried to match it with the rest of their system. its a shame that a lot of shops out there just want to sell things and make a quick buck and dont give a crap about audio. a good audio shop will have employees who are truly into car audio as a passion (eat, sleep, breath it) and there will be atleast a couple cars with full system in them or at least person project cars being done. any shop that does not have any owner or employees car loaded up with a good system is a shop i would be VERY care full at and i would double check everything they talk about because if they never use the products on their own and have a passion for audio, then most of the time the shop is just in it for the money. also any good shop will make sure their customers are happy (even though once in awhile some people are NEVER happy no matter what) but over all a good shop will do everything they can to make sure the customer is happy with their purchase even if it means swapping out amps or whatever to make it happen or tell you what you need to make it sound awesome (some cars need a processor or a single summing product to get best sound (like adding bass in a benz cl550 witch has the bose system where the the louder the system is the bass flattens out and falls out when it shouldnt be and some people are ok with that but true sq people will not be). sorry for long post just hate it when people talk about stuff that they truly have no clue what they are saying and their only real experience they have is with low end or Walmart equipment. its one thing if your on a budget and get only what you can afford and its another when they become MR. or MRS. know it all just because they installed their own or a buddies system and its the first or second car they have ever heard. plus things change and everyone is different. but over all each component plays their part in the system and they all create different sounds and again a system is only as good as the weakest link (ie: using low end power wire like CCA (unless the correct guage is used witch will end up costing near 100% copper wire would cost) like a garden hose if there is a kink in the hose or if the hose is too small the water flows less, crappy power wire starves amps even if they still work and sound ok but its not giving the amp what it truly needs.
thanks
tim
 
#1,537 ·
noise floor is enough to convince most people that all amps aren't equal...

S/n and THD are poor indicators of an amps performance.

You can have a good sounding system with average amps and an average source though.

I've only owned two amps that I consider to be outstanding, neither were stock. It's all about the last few percent performance increase.
 
#1,548 · (Edited)
Lol, significant flaw = being broken, or having an eq curve built in, or some abnormal noise.

Most competently designed amps emit no noise of their own. If your amp has a muting plug in it's input, and connected to the speaker, it makes noise. Get rid of it immediately, it's broken.

If it has an eq curve, it doesn't really sound different than any other amp with the same equalization applied.

Keep propogating bs though... It's hilarious to watch. Its sad to think how how much time energy and money you spend chasing sq in amps though... results are much greater in drivers/placement/eq/TA/Phase/environmental changes than in any typical amp.
 
#1,551 ·
Some people will learn, some people won't. When I started treating car audio purchases like business decisions, it all became clear.

For example: let's assume amplifier B costs $1,000 more than amplifier A. The first thing I ask myself is "Will it sound $1,000 better?" If yes, why?

Then again, I'm from the school of thought where I believe high dollar car audio is an exercise in futility due to the fact that high dollar products are wasted in a hostile environment that offers little to no control.
 
#1,550 ·
You should just add one more disclaimer: in theory all amps designed to do one thing-amplify signal, therefore theoretically they all do the same thing.
Unfortunately on practice they just don`t.
I hoped Boss amp just as good as Brax.
 
#1,558 ·
LOL, Zed audio made some Boss Rev amps back in the day, they were rated double the power they actually made, but were otherwise fine.

The reality is, amps from most reputable manufacturers all simply amplify signal. If they do anything else, they're not doing their job.

Some people will learn, some people won't. When I started treating car audio purchases like business decisions, it all became clear.

For example: let's assume amplifier B costs $1,000 more than amplifier A. The first thing I ask myself is "Will it sound $1,000 better?" If yes, why?

Then again, I'm from the school of thought where I believe high dollar car audio is an exercise in futility due to the fact that high dollar products are wasted in a hostile environment that offers little to no control.
Truth. Some people just believe that $$$$ = SQ. They believe it with all their heart. Unfortunately, these people all tend to have only a simple grasp of car audio. They tend to know little to nothing about tuning, and ask/discuss nothing about how to get good sound in a car. They simply believe buying more expensive (supposedly better) gear is all you need to do to get to SQ nirvana.

Here is what I've learned about people that drivel on about amps sounding different with no measurements proving they do, no scientific basis other than "I use my ears" and no real understanding of why this is simply not the case.

* They tend to be the same people that think sound deadener needs to coat the whole panel (obviously not true), and that deadener blocks noise. They almost never invest in any noise barrier.

* They understand very little about time alignment, phase, acoustics or sound interaction in a vehicle. They never experiment with T/A, or ask questions about how to utilize it best.

* They take no active part in any truly technical discussion on this forum.

* They never experiment with drivers, placement, EQ or active crossovers.

* They are technologically stuck around 20 years ago.

* Their belief stems from a poor understanding of sound, and how to get their car to sound good to them.

Noise is the one area where I've found most amps to perform poorly. Not really much of an issue when using conventional drivers but when using drivers with a sensitivity in the high 90's or above the majority of amps are noisy.
What noise have you measured? and from what amplifiers? Was the noise induced from the source, or did the amplifier itself generate audible noise with no source connected? At what gain level was the noise present? Did you figure out which amp makes the least noise, and purchase that one? If so, which amp was that?

Make more money! only than you don`t have to be boring as hell analyzing every possible scenario in cost vs benefit realm. At some point you just buy the best available product and call it a day. but then where is fun in that?
So what is THE best amplifier, the one unequivocal best, that everyone will agree on as the best, and go out and buy tomorrow? :laugh:

What made it THE best?
 
#1,553 ·
Price should not take a place in this discussion, business approach is not what I'd take while making that decision. Take two nice systems, one cost 3000 bucks, another 10000 .which one is better? will it be 7000 dollars better? `most likely it will be better, what that 9000 means to you is only you can decide. Do you have to skip on life necessities to afford it?
 
#1,554 ·
I'm a CPA by day, so of course price factors in. Furthermore, enjoyment for my money spent factors in too. I once purchased amplifiers on whims chasing that SQ pipe dream only to realize that I was just wasting my money! If spending more money won't give me an exponentially equal enjoyment factor, I see it as a waste of money. Even in this hobby called car audio!

For example, my last dilemma when my Boston Acoustics G3 sub was discovered to be damaged beyond hope was to purchase a Type R 10 or a 10w6v3. I listened to both sealed in demo rooms and a couple of cars. I then concluded that the Type R 10 that I purchased for $104 was the better route to go because the 10w6v3 @ $400 wouldn't give me an additional $296 of enjoyment.

For the record, I drive my wife nuts with my cost/benefit analysis these days.:p
 
#1,555 ·
Make more money! only than you don`t have to be boring as hell analyzing every possible scenario in cost vs benefit realm. At some point you just buy the best available product and call it a day. but then where is fun in that?
 
#1,556 ·
Making money isn't the issue, spending it is.;) While I admit that I was a tad bit reckless with prior purchases, that is a mistake that won't be repeated. In other words, you won't see me getting all nostalgic and purchasing 50 amplifiers in a 2 year time frame any time soon. :p
 
#1,563 ·
Who ever said in that thread anything about EQ? I don`t remember anyone saying that sound signature of an amp can`t be duplicated. you just pulling it out of your ass.

What I Was saying is that amps sounds different, I have 30 years experience to say that.
I will not be drugged into pointless discussion of why is that true.
As for measurements- every amp measured slightly different from same model assembled on the same line by the same people using the same parts. 1% difference is surely audible if you know what listen for.
 
#1,565 ·
At least one of you said "modified FR". What exactly do you think that means? LOL So what am I "pulling out of my ass"? :rolleyes:

So what about them sounds different if the "sound signature" as you put it, can be duplicated? Let me guess, oh they image differently, or theres a airiness or some other BS cop out description that is meaningless.

30 Years experience? What do you think I fell off the turnip truck yesterday? Trust me friend, I started off believing as you do that amps make some huge difference in SQ, then through careful testing for myself, quickly determined that not to be the case.

This discussion IS pointless for you, as I don't expect to convince you. You hear differences friend, I believe that, but you don't know why, and you attribute it to the amp blindly. If this wasn't the case, you'd be able to concisely explain what the differences are, and what causes them.

I'm simply looking to help others understand that the differences are not in the amp, or how much was spent on it, or the supposed unexplainable SQ merits of the amp, and are simply in power level and tuning when swapping from one amp to another.

So of the supposed 1%, what measured differently if not FR/EQ? What measurement change made a 1% sound difference without altering FR at all? I'd love to hear this, since you "know what to listen for". That's always one of my favorite lines in this debate. :laugh: You guys always insinuate that you need "Golden Ears" to hear the difference, which only further weakens your argument.

You could take two identical amps from the same line (see my favorite sig quote from a guy smarter than both of us put together. An OG that explained over and over that competently designed amps all sound identical since they neither add nor subtract from the signal), adjust the gain 1% different, and hear a difference. Does this mean the amps sound different? No, the SETTINGS sound different. Nobody is saying you can't hear a difference in how your amp IS SET, just that it's not some intangible benefit that one amp has over another when set identically.

The reality is 99% of users couldn't set the same amp identically twice. They simply lack the measuring equipment to do so, or the desire/understanding that it's important if insisting their amp is making some large sonic difference. :eek:
 
#1,570 ·
Have a look at this interview with Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note

Pay attention to what he said regarding transformers. (they measure exactly the same but they sound different)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtperKH7XsU


Just an example of how your ears can help. You do not listen with your ears, you use your brain. Mics have no brain. And they will never ear the same things people do.

Another example that if it measures "well" it may sound like crap is the NS10s
 
#1,597 ·
Ok here is where I jump into the deep end of the pool lol. I am in no way nearly as experienced or as involved as most of you guys. I can only speak from my own personal opinion and that is I also feel higher end amps don't make a difference. Don't get me wrong, I've always used quality amps, but at some point and time I've come to realize the amp can only do what it was designed for and for me to expect more from that was just me trying to justify my expense. Does this mean that I'm dumping my Brax amps, heck no as they are paid for lol. What it means is that if I were to buy more amps. I would gladly buy a HD amp and with the proper tuning achieve to me with my hearing, the same results.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WRX/Z28
#1,599 · (Edited)
i have not read the 65 pages in this thread. when amp guts was free i saw that a lot of amp's from various names used the same board this is gonna happen when you have china building your amps then throwing you name on it.the components soldered on the board may be better or worse quality but they still are basically the same.i don't have a golden ear but i do have a RF 500a2 from the 90's in my car working great on my MB Quarts pre buyout German made,an i also have a PPI powerclass 2100 from the 90's as-well and there is a difference in sq from the fosgate to the PPI.the PPI is 100 watts a channel and the RF is 125 watts a channel.i'm telling you the PPI is crisper and cleaner it has a better "slew rate" in the reviews when bench tested in the car audio mag's that is what they attribute the the better sound to i can't say i really hear it on the sub's but i do on my highs.
Slew rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
but mot many bass heads will hear it and really for the most part it not going to matter to your average joe. but i bereave you get what you pay for.yes you can get a boss amp and boss subs and they will boom for dirt cheap.
that being said i was low on cash for a amp so i was told to get the biggest 2 channel la sound amp i could find by my installer back in the 90's.we put it on my highs and it was crisper and cleaner then the pioneer premier amp i had and that LA sound was half the price.
i had a mtx thunder 280 on my RF 10's and the LA sound on my mid's and tweets(it sucked on bass)and i was LOVING IT i got many compliments.
the biggest improvement i got was from not using the crossovers in the amp's and getting a active crossover.
 
#1,626 ·
in my case i have a 4 volt out deck and the RF 500a2 had the gain's just cracked open and the same for the PPI.I tried to keep them as close as i could because i wanted to keep my driveway test as true as possible.the RF has rt+left separate gains and the PPI has 1 gain for both channel's.
like the man said it was not "day and night".but there was a audible difference.
 
#1,629 ·
The problem is, both amps could have the gain turned all the way up, all the way down, or halfway up, and still be set differently due to differences in design. This is one of the things people don't follow.

You need to level match by metering the output at the very least, you really should use an oscilloscope to ensure neither is clipping.
 
#1,628 ·
I love it like it`s always "all other things remain equal"......
other things never equal, different cars, different HU, different processors or luck of them, different requirements to appearance/ size, etc etc.... no complete system sounds the same regardless of equipment used.
Did I ever said that for great sounding system one must use highest quality amplifier?
Yes, one can build great system without spending fortune on highest quality equipment, that is true. it`s just easier to make great system with great equipment.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top