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Old 03-08-2013   #101
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Driving an amplifier into a challenging loudspeaker is significantly more complex than a resistive load. For example, if the load is highly reactive with major phase issues the amplifier can be driven into clipping @ significantly lower output than its rated power. In our lab, using the Audio Precision System, Cascade 2 we were able to drive an amplifier rated @ 250W per channel into clipping with only 35 watts of output..
Any truth to that? If so it can explain lots of things...

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Old 03-08-2013   #102
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH



Is this enough information about how an amp performs with a reactive load btw?

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Old 03-08-2013   #103
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Too bad the DLS ultimates are no longer
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Old 03-08-2013   #104
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeGratton View Post
GREAT article on actually testing to show a difference in amplifiers sound

The Sound of Audio Amplifiers: Can you hear a difference between Amps?

I didn't read the whole thing. It looks like they just copied and pasted Rod Elliott's site. But I found a significant error at the beginning...

"When people talk about the sound of an amplifier, there are many different terms used. For a typical (high quality) amplifier, the sound may be described as "smeared", or having "air" or "authoritative" bass. These terms - although describing a listener's experience - have no direct meaning in electrical terms."

To me, this is like saying, "A number divided by zero has no meaning." Well, this is sort of true. But in effect, we have a number of tools that can actually make real world divide-by-zeros meaningful and tractable.

There have been a number of studies that have demonstrated the correlation between signal and percept. Like I said in another recent thread, there's a whole NIH-funded field devoted to doing exactly that. We absolutely can quantify these differences. It doesn't make sense for people to just throw up their hands and say we cannot know these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery
What I wanted to say is that amps ... sound the same.
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Old 03-29-2013   #105
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

excuse my english, first of all , its an honour to read all the post from all the aknowledget expert audiophiles, I have learned lots of things, nothing is written on stone too.
the effect placebo is there indeed, but if you have the money use it, we like to feel we have the best , and as I wasted my 100% of money in audio, for others are just the 1% so they can buy a brax , moscony, mcintosh, tru technology, etc... but sometimes the problem is inside, we want more, IM very sure that my system sounds better than never now that I put a helix amp and the focal krx3, but im going for more, i remember I bought an eclipse amp in a pawnshop for 30 dlls, and really made a good work that amp,, I know there are some oldschool amps being sold for a very little bucks that can make a better work than most class d actual amps, but if you have the money use it,, im so budget limited but even so, I have 2 head units, conected, 2 audiocontrol procesors, 3 amps, all the waves just TO aquire SQ. THIS IS MY SYSTEM VIDEO LINK


Focal KRX3, Helix amp on stand by, mcIntosh mc440 & jl audio 750 hd amps helix p dsp. Idmax12 sealed. sony avx601bt double din.excuse my english its not my native lenguaje
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Old 03-29-2013   #106
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I have noticed that, the more a person paid for a particular piece of gear, the more benefit they perceived. This is true for everything from audio gear to golf clubs to clothing to guns.

I have spent my life in and around pro audio (large scale music PA's for touring and large theaters) and I have definitely heard them argue about durability, weight, heat management, maintenance issues, cost and a ton of other things, but NEVER sound quality. They seem to understand that, at a certain level, the SQ is the same or so close that it doesn't really matter.

My amps had lots of feel and emotion, so I put them on Paxil. Now they are smooth and mellow. Silly amps.
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Old 03-30-2013   #107
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And that is about the gist of it...

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Old 03-30-2013   #108
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleCarter View Post
I have noticed that, the more a person paid for a particular piece of gear, the more benefit they perceived. This is true for everything from audio gear to golf clubs to clothing to guns.

I have spent my life in and around pro audio (large scale music PA's for touring and large theaters) and I have definitely heard them argue about durability, weight, heat management, maintenance issues, cost and a ton of other things, but NEVER sound quality. They seem to understand that, at a certain level, the SQ is the same or so close that it doesn't really matter.
love this video.....nice clean sound

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Old 03-31-2013   #109
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by file audio View Post
excuse my english, first of all , its an honour to read all the post from all the aknowledget expert audiophiles, I have learned lots of things, nothing is written on stone too.
the effect placebo is there indeed, but if you have the money use it, we like to feel we have the best , and as I wasted my 100% of money in audio, for others are just the 1% so they can buy a brax , moscony, mcintosh, tru technology, etc... but sometimes the problem is inside, we want more, IM very sure that my system sounds better than never now that I put a helix amp and the focal krx3, but im going for more, i remember I bought an eclipse amp in a pawnshop for 30 dlls, and really made a good work that amp,, I know there are some oldschool amps being sold for a very little bucks that can make a better work than most class d actual amps, but if you have the money use it,, im so budget limited but even so, I have 2 head units, conected, 2 audiocontrol procesors, 3 amps, all the waves just TO aquire SQ. THIS IS MY SYSTEM VIDEO LINK

Looking fo SQ. Audio, focal krx3 helix amp - YouTube
This is so painfully true.

The truth is that people do not distinguish between what our ears can hear to what our instruments measure or produce.

The truth is that some people claim to hear noises in frequncies that only dogs can hear.

The truth is that our brain does so many manipulations to what we hear or see that we can be easily fulled or tricked - the truth is we are blind, what we see (hear) is nearly a portion of what is being played.

Taking in addition that beneeth certain gap of db we only hear the higher note, our hearing is selective! and is degraded as we grow up.

But spending money sure is fun and at least you know for 100% that you got your money's worth and can also brag about it if you want.

That is for the myth part.

But as for reality part - there is also a lot of sence spending so much money on high-end equipment and the reason for that is exactly as I wrote above, you know what you get for what you give.

For me, the main reason to high end is that you know that for that product, the vendor made most efforts to put the maximum result on the product it self.

Meaning - you have to do the minimum effort on that product in order to get best results.

You don't need to hardly do any EQ work on high end speakers - the vendor made them just right to sound the best on the factory xover - that is one example.

You don't need to do much tuning on a high end amp and you know that it would probably survive an atomic hollacost.

Some of TRU amps (billet six) are sent packed in a sniper rifle suitcase - that is a very good reason to get frisked at the airport custom's

And sometimes just knowing that your tweeter's membrain is made out of diamond cuts (accuton) is so sexual arrousing

Yet, you know that you can now lay back and relax, enjoy the music (until the next time you get board out of your Fn' mind )

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Old 04-02-2013   #110
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Well, its more notorius the difference between change from pioneer 6.5 speakers to boston pro and the focal krx3 is the best one I hqve listen3d , in amps of course there are differences but we need to have a more trained ears, maybe we dont realize that the goal isnt always happiness, So im trying to enjoy the right now , fighting to stop myself from switching a song for another just to hear how it sounds the next one, cause we lose the joy of music cause the hobbie(vice)factor is stronger than never

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Old 04-02-2013   #111
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by file audio View Post
Well, its more notorius the difference between change from pioneer 6.5 speakers to boston pro and the focal krx3 is the best one I hqve listen3d , in amps of course there are differences but we need to have a more trained ears, maybe we dont realize that the goal isnt always happiness, So im trying to enjoy the right now , fighting to stop myself from switching a song for another just to hear how it sounds the next one, cause we lose the joy of music cause the hobbie(vice)factor is stronger than never
Very well said. The more I listen to and enjoy my favorite music in my truck, the less I focus on the differences in amp sounds, build quality, etc.
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Old 04-02-2013   #112
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

You could just say ignorance is bliss you know.

Not loosing the joy of music is what separates between a sane audiophile to an insane audiophile.

Hearing and listening becomes technical over time, that is for sure -> but this is exactly what drives us in this hobby, we simply try to improve the "best".

Don't forget to smile during.

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Old 04-03-2013   #113
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Most audiophiles have this mentality:

I paid more for it, therefore it is better!

Custom built tube amps, silver wiring, cable lifters, gold wall sockets, isolating/levitating equipment racks, $8,000 towers that use a Silver Flute woofer with a Vifa XT-25 tweeter per tower, etc. Being an audiophile is the game of he (or she) who spends the most wins!

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Old 04-03-2013   #114
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^^^^ THIS!!

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Old 04-03-2013   #115
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Well, I have/had powerful quality amps and less powerful quality amps, from different and same brands, and they do in fact sound different. Allthough very little - but of course, the more you push them, the more obvious the difference.

However, I've also had a decent 5-channel amp from a respected maker. And that one sounded like shit.

I spent hours tuning trying to remove a weird peak in my upper midbass/lower midrange. I gave up as I was changing my car anyway, thinking it must have been a resonance issue either from the door dimensions/size or the car itself, and that it would be fixed when getting a new car.

Putting the same gear in my new car, I got the same freaking problem.

Turns out it was the freaking amp having a "loudness"-like function (built in, not switchable).

In general, I think same wattage/quality amp differences are less important that almost anything else, and I don't think of "amp SQ" when I plan or purchase for my builds. Amp quality and reliability is more important.

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Old 04-03-2013   #116
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
Most audiophiles have this mentality:

I paid more for it, therefore it is better!

Custom built tube amps, silver wiring, cable lifters, gold wall sockets, isolating/levitating equipment racks, $8,000 towers that use a Silver Flute woofer with a Vifa XT-25 tweeter per tower, etc. Being an audiophile is the game of he (or she) who spends the most wins!
Buying that Vifa XT-25 separately is actually pretty good value for the money spent .
But I agree with the general point made here. There are good decent priced (hate to use the word cheap here) products and there are good expensive products though. Not everything that is affordable is good but sadly not everything expensive is good either.
The testing on this site should help us make up our mind but it never really clears up the mystery's around certain expensive gear.

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Old 04-04-2013   #117
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesayso View Post
Buying that Vifa XT-25 separately is actually pretty good value for the money spent .
But I agree with the general point made here. There are good decent priced (hate to use the word cheap here) products and there are good expensive products though. Not everything that is affordable is good but sadly not everything expensive is good either.
The testing on this site should help us make up our mind but it never really clears up the mystery's around certain expensive gear.
Thd% is there but the button functions (shaping sound capanle) and watts from an amp to another is where the notoriuos difference appear, quality reliability and intention or target is what makes a good amp, a Toyota corolla takes me there for sure but the mercedes is the mental placebo, more silent more nice and exoensive but if we put a macintosh shell on a kenwood amp, we will hear the difference, off topic , I read that you have a 88prs using it 2way std, i use the 880prs 3way in the nwo, any sugestions for krx3 central speaker, and sub, strange to rear the rcas is high rear mid front why?

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Old 04-04-2013   #118
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

The best sounding amps I have are 25 year old Zapco Z220s I got for free. I have bought amps to replace them thinking they would sound better but they don't sound as good. Obviously, I believe all amps don't sound the same and how much I've spent on them has nothing to do with it. It was said earlier and I think it's important, buy quality that you know will last and is built well with good components.
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Old 04-05-2013   #119
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
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off topic , I read that you have a 88prs using it 2way std, i use the 880prs 3way in the nwo, any sugestions for krx3 central speaker, and sub, strange to rear the rcas is high rear mid front why?
I don't quite get the question here... you are running a 3 way with the 880PRS? Passive between mids and tweeters?

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Old 04-05-2013   #120
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
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The best sounding amps I have are 25 year old Zapco Z220s I got for free. I have bought amps to replace them thinking they would sound better but they don't sound as good. Obviously, I believe all amps don't sound the same and how much I've spent on them has nothing to do with it. It was said earlier and I think it's important, buy quality that you know will last and is built well with good components.
I agree with this statement 100%. The differences in amp sounds are so minute and thats when build quality is more important.
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Old 04-06-2013   #121
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
Most audiophiles have this mentality:

I paid more for it, therefore it is better!

Custom built tube amps, silver wiring, cable lifters, gold wall sockets, isolating/levitating equipment racks, $8,000 towers that use a Silver Flute woofer with a Vifa XT-25 tweeter per tower, etc. Being an audiophile is the game of he (or she) who spends the most wins!
not necessarily. you can spend lots of cash on audio and it could sound worse than the cheaper stuff! i love by $70.00 boston acoustics tweeters and despise the focal tweeters that came with a $600.00 comp set.

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Old 04-06-2013   #122
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by avanti1960 View Post
not necessarily. you can spend lots of cash on audio and it could sound worse than the cheaper stuff! i love by $70.00 boston acoustics tweeters and despise the focal tweeters that came with a $600.00 comp set.

Have you ever met a real audiophile that spent at least $100k on his room and hundreds of thousands on his system while bragging to everyone how everything in that room costs more than most people's houses? I did sometime around 1989 or 1990. The individual was a friend of my grandfathers, insanely rich, a billionaire, and a widower in his 50s at the time. He became a recluse after the death of his wife and the only thing he enjoyed was listening to music and drinking. His setup was the only one to date that I have witnessed utilizing an ELP turntable!

Regardless, he was typical of most audiophiles I met over the years. Another was a McIntosh/Klipschorn person. While not quite as elaborate as my grandfather's friend's setup, he bragged about his $15k in room treatments, levitation rack, cable lifters, gold plated wall sockets, and all sorts of other incidental stuff that cost a fortune yet probably had little to no impact on the sound. Well, aside from the room treatments...

I also met a few more in my profession, usually super wealthy business owners, and the one common denominator that all of them had was bragging about the cost of their gear.

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Old 04-06-2013   #123
 
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For me, it's about matching the components. You need dynamic headroom without distortion and the dampening factor is also significant, imo. If you get both of these correct, then its a matter of seasoning to taste... swapping caps in the amps to suit, et al. I use planars from 900 up. They will absolutely tell you where your system lacks and are very responsive to upstream components. The theory that "power is power" is simply rubbish and has been disproved, but its great fun to talk about!
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Old 04-07-2013   #124
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I dont think its a myth its more like the guys said before about build quaility and honestly preference, power, and current draw.. I currently have 7 or 8 amps in my possession and have owned many many many more... I am in the middle of a build and decided to have a head to head with my Arc Audio xxk 4150 (badass specs for a decent price), Monitor 1 2.70 (cheap price great build quality), Zapco c2k 2.0 (possibly SQ myth amp), and last but not least old school zapco z250c4...
I played each one of the amplifiers on tweeters, mids, midbass.. They all were different and I would use different amps for different reasons..
Honestly for midrange and tweeters I would rank the amps
1. C2k 2.0 2. Monitor1 3.z250c4 4.xxk4150
Midbass was totally different BTW all amps were bridged
1.xxk4150 2. C2k 2.0 3. Monitor1 4. z250c4
I ranked them based on my needs and personal taste. I honestly think that the Zapco c2k amplifiers are the BEST bang for buck SQ amps... They beat the pants out of most high end amplifiers IMO in price, power, and sound.. I have had arc SE, TRU, Helix etc... There is no comparison.. Honestly in my test I was pulling for the Monitor1 because of price and Size, Thinking I could sell the rest and get more than 60 bucks an amp, but in some test they just didnt match up totally..

So bottom line High END amps are NOT a MYTH depending on the amp and what your needs and taste are..

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Old 04-07-2013   #125
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
Have you ever met a real audiophile that spent at least $100k on his room and hundreds of thousands on his system while bragging to everyone how everything in that room costs more than most people's houses? I did sometime around 1989 or 1990. The individual was a friend of my grandfathers, insanely rich, a billionaire, and a widower in his 50s at the time. He became a recluse after the death of his wife and the only thing he enjoyed was listening to music and drinking. His setup was the only one to date that I have witnessed utilizing an ELP turntable!

Regardless, he was typical of most audiophiles I met over the years. Another was a McIntosh/Klipschorn person. While not quite as elaborate as my grandfather's friend's setup, he bragged about his $15k in room treatments, levitation rack, cable lifters, gold plated wall sockets, and all sorts of other incidental stuff that cost a fortune yet probably had little to no impact on the sound. Well, aside from the room treatments...

I also met a few more in my profession, usually super wealthy business owners, and the one common denominator that all of them had was bragging about the cost of their gear.
i had a friend in high school who had wealthy parents and both his home and car audio system had the best money could buy. luckily he was not the bragging type. at some point i would guess it drives someone slightly neurotic if the sound of their investment does not line up with the price they paid- either they admit they wasted their cash or trick themselves into believing the sound.
there are times when i think about certain speakers for example and believe that they would sound poor only because of the cost. however i personally am all about sound and could care less about bragging rights. unfortunately i think i am a person who can tell the difference and am tempted to upgrade when i hear issues related to a component (or so i believe).
i do think high end amps sound better.

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