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Old 08-29-2014   #1251
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
That part i wholeheartedly agree on, with SS on midbass that will be a bliss.
THat exactly what I`m doing in my own car. sounds terrific in my test closet (shaped as cabin of my 4runner) with brax matrix driving MW 160 and tubes on 140 and 102. 12W single ended each. MOst likely I`ll move up on 650 430 110 in actual vehicle but leave amps as described.
All I read was brax matrix ........ You should get rid of it

Specially if it's an x4

No good
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Old 08-29-2014   #1252
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by DBlevel View Post
All I read was brax matrix ........ You should get rid of it

Specially if it's an x4

No good
You have few braxes yourself stay away from mine, please

It seems like most people don't care to actually understand reality.
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Old 08-29-2014   #1253
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
You have few braxes yourself stay away from mine, please
Send them to the dark side!!!

Mr Vic

I'll show them all the attention you don't
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Old 08-29-2014   #1254
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by DBlevel View Post
Send them to the dark side!!!

Mr Vic

I'll show them all the attention you don't
Maybe I should listen to gurus here and switch to class D copycats since they sounds just as good.
THey like it here. I posted in your for sale thread, answer please.

It seems like most people don't care to actually understand reality.
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Old 08-29-2014   #1255
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
Maybe I should listen to gurus here and switch to class D copycats since they sounds just as good.
THey like it here. I posted in your for sale thread, answer please.
Sorry Vic man didn't see that, I'll go look real quick.
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Old 08-29-2014   #1256
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
Architect, not all tube amps are the same so you shouldn't be so quick to jump to those conclusions.

I've been around some high power tube amps around 100WPC+, and some tubes that are only like 5-10 WPC.

Depending on the application, one is better than the other. If you have rather inefficient speakers, then the very low power amps won't be ideal and the higher would be better in many cases.

But with very efficient speakers, like say a nice horn loaded setup with 15" or 18" woofers putting down 105+ dB @ 1W, then the lower power tubes are almost always "nicer" sounding.

There's an inherent nicer sound at the lower output levels for these low power tube amps (not every single one of them....just the "good ones", hehe).

So this isn't a general statement that all low power tubes sound better than high power tubes. But when you take the best of the best in each category, and you don't *need* all of that power, then that's been my experience.

Car audio is a little different of course because the efficiency of drivers are not as good as what is available in home/pro audio. A pure tube only setup would be very refined indeed but I'm not sure if tubes all by themselves would give you that classic "car audio" experience if you know what I mean.

A nice bi-amped setup with tubes driving horns or tweeters/dedicated midranges would be awesome and untouchable IMO.

The philosophy of low vs. high power tube amps, I would also extend to SS to a good degree. In comparing my old Phoenix Gold MS amps to the Xtant X604, they are both of similar caliber but the tradeoff is overall power/headroom vs. SQ, respectively.
You missed the part where I said the high powered Genesis tube amp I recently heard was very neutral, probably because it was not being driven to its limits. I used the word "Usually" because it is not always the case that tube amps are low powered. But it is the case almost all of the time because the market for high power tubes is just so small.

One of the best systems I ever heard was the Edgarhorn setup on tubes at Image Dynamics many years ago. But I do not believe it was being driven into distortion.

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Old 08-29-2014   #1257
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
I'd like to try it as well as the Tang Band version.

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Old 08-30-2014   #1258
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Most of the lower powered tube amps are probably single ended...and single ended on horns is good IMO.

But Dr Edgar liked to use Cyrus Brenemman's amps, and they were mostly push pull.
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Old 08-30-2014   #1259
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

And technically the Genesis is a hybrid...a really good and unique one (if you are talking about the P15).
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Old 08-30-2014   #1260
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
Maybe I should listen to gurus here and switch to class D copycats since they sounds just as good.
THey like it here. I posted in your for sale thread, answer please.
Most if not all, class D amps are rebranded....same pbc/circuit shared with various companies. Crap if you ask me, you go thinking you bought a one of a kind class D amp then to find out Pyle and Boss also have the same pbc layout just marketed a bit different (outrageous specs).


Critical Mass got caught selling the same amps "So and so" sells for less than a couple of hundred bucks and CM slap a retail of 12K...LO FUKCING L. They even had the nerve to use the same EXACT heatsink/terminals/end covers...

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Old 08-30-2014   #1261
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Most of the lower powered tube amps are probably single ended...and single ended on horns is good IMO.
I don't know if the Western Electric amps are singled ended, but they are nicer than the AN amps which are already very good on their own.

More weight.
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Old 08-30-2014   #1262
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
Most of the lower powered tube amps are probably single ended...and single ended on horns is good IMO.

But Dr Edgar liked to use Cyrus Brenemman's amps, and they were mostly push pull.
Good to know, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
And technically the Genesis is a hybrid...a really good and unique one (if you are talking about the P15).
Pretty sure this one was all tube...one-off custom job by their lead engineer.

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Old 08-30-2014   #1263
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_inox View Post
Maybe I should listen to gurus here and switch to class D copycats since they sounds just as good.
THey like it here. I posted in your for sale thread, answer please.
Meh, it's going in a car and car audio is all about compromise. I picked the compromises I was willing to accept, with dedication to amplifier real estate being the main one, and designed the system around that.

Could I achieve better sound with an all class ab setup? Maybe.

Am I willing to dedicate the space and budget for the electrical system to support an all class ab setup in a compact car? Nope.

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Old 08-30-2014   #1264
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I can definitely tell a difference (or think I can ) between my SS Reference A/B amp on component set vs. my wife's SS Picasso Nano class D. BUT, hers fits easily under front passenger seat while mine takes up a good portion of my large trunk amp rack...plus hers never gets hot and the Reference can get pretty hot even with the rack being fan cooled.

Meh, I didn't need the space in this case, like we did for her SUV (mommy mobile). It's hard to say how much of the better sound in my car is due to the amp vs. having better component set than she has.

Her fronts are a midrange kenwood component set, albeit one that gets great reviews and does sound fairly good. But the SS Reference paired with my Momo 6501 set definitely has better midbass, much more impact and blends great with sub, and the mid/high frequencies do sound better as well. But hey, her component set was like $150 or less and mine was about $240.

My guess is that the speakers make more difference than the amp, though I do think her Picasso Nano amp, having a worse S/N and Thd could not sound as good on my component set as the SS Reference - haven't tested that though.

Also, my front doors actually have 4 speakers each lol - so of course my front stage will sound better than just a woofer/tweeter combo in each of her front doors, with proper power and all. I'm running 1 momo 6.5" woofer, 3" mid, and 2 tweets in each front door - sounds fantastic with the dsp on time align and EQ duty to get everything blended perfectly.

I will say the momo 6.5" woofer is VERY impressive paired with the SS Ref2.370 amp! I have to keep the midbass dialed back even with a 3" mid and 2 tweets or it is too much. For a little woofer in a door it really kicks!

Oh yeah, back to the point - because my speaker set up is so far superior to hers, and I have a dsp and she doesn't, really hard to know just how much the difference in amps contributes to overall sound quality. And I'm too lazy to swap speakers out just to test it.

Last edited by Dspencer; 08-30-2014 at 11:35 PM..
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Old 08-30-2014   #1265
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
Meh, it's going in a car and car audio is all about compromise. I picked the compromises I was willing to accept, with dedication to amplifier real estate being the main one, and designed the system around that.

Could I achieve better sound with an all class ab setup? Maybe.

Am I willing to dedicate the space and budget for the electrical system to support an all class ab setup in a compact car? Nope.
I hear ya - I went full class D for wife's SUV because she needs all the cargo space she can get. Modern class D amps that are built decently aren't bad at all. I was actually quite surprised by her Picasso Nano 4ch. I was expecting it + components to sound better than her factory system, but not by as much as it does - she has the JBL premium factory amped system before. It actually sounded good enough to spur me to jealousy so I upgraded my car, lol. Very surprising!

Back when I was heavier into car audio (pre-marriage and kids), class D on mids/highs just wouldn't cut it. Seems that they do now.
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Old 09-09-2014   #1266
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I believe this for the most part, I run audison amps and they sound good, but not much
different than many other amps run in their power/distortion sweet spot.

But then there's old hifonics/zed; and to my ear those amps do sound better running
full range than just about anything I've heard, like taking a wet blanket off the speaker.
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Old 09-11-2014   #1267
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

It's not all about frequency response. There can be big differences in the noise floor and "dynamics" of similarly rated amps. For the most part, it is hard to tell one amp from the other as long as there is no difference in the noise floor and they're compared at similar wattage under clipping. Saying that, I've run and installed a number of amps in my and my friend's cars over the years. I haven't run any real high dollar amps, but the only amps I've been thoroughly impressed with has been the Zed made HiFonics Gen X and the first A/B series of amps from Zed Audio. Dynamics are outstanding and they seem to deliver better detail that other amps I've run. The only explanation I can come up with is that both these lines of amps have "over built" power supplies and have a super low noise floor at all volumes.

The biggest surprises have come from the clearance priced Cerwin Vega EXL amps from a few years back - the best budget amps EVER - extremely low price and good power with a more than acceptable noise floor. The other was the JL HD amps. Expensive, but the only Class D full range I think I could personally run,,, which considering how I feel about the other Class D amps I've installed is saying something - lol.
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Old 09-12-2014   #1268
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I'll also add that I can hear difference in amps.

My most recent surprise/example was when I had to test an old Mmats 4 channel amp for a friend before he sold it. I had no intention of even listening for a difference in SQ but I hooked it up through the pre outs of my Denon (Made in Japan) 85 x 2 receiver I use in my garage system and I was only doing this to check the amp and make sure all the channels worked and woooow it sounded much better and smoother than my Denon which I always thought was decent. I can also say I heard the SQ difference immediately even at low volume and all volumes, it was very obvious when I connected the first speaker.

Now its got me thinking I even need separates in my garage system also!
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Old 09-12-2014   #1269
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by probillygun View Post
I'll also add that I can hear difference in amps.

My most recent surprise/example was when I had to test an old Mmats 4 channel amp for a friend before he sold it. I had no intention of even listening for a difference in SQ but I hooked it up through the pre outs of my Denon (Made in Japan) 85 x 2 receiver I use in my garage system and I was only doing this to check the amp and make sure all the channels worked and woooow it sounded much better and smoother than my Denon which I always thought was decent. I can also say I heard the SQ difference immediately even at low volume and all volumes, it was very obvious when I connected the first speaker.

Now its got me thinking I even need separates in my garage system also!
And they will measure different if there really is an audible difference. That's the real debate here.

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Old 09-13-2014   #1270
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I'm not convinced that standard measurements on test tones tells the whole story of an amp's ability to play complex full range music. I think in most cases it does.
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Old 09-13-2014   #1271
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsoul View Post
I'm not convinced that standard measurements on test tones tells the whole story of an amp's ability to play complex full range music. I think in most cases it does.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

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Old 09-14-2014   #1272
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

it is not a myth!
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Old 09-16-2014   #1273
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsoul View Post
I'm not convinced that standard measurements on test tones tells the whole story of an amp's ability to play complex full range music. I think in most cases it does.
Good read here: Butler Audio: Tubes vs. Transistors

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Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 09-29-2014   #1274
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
And they will measure different if there really is an audible difference. That's the real debate here.
Exactly. Everyone agrees amps can make a sound difference in systems. The issue is whether brand A vs brand B, both have specs good enough to scientifically have no audible distortion/noise/eq difference, sound different outside of psychoacoustics.

Brand A may be +$200, or be a brand the listener prefers, etc., and suddenly people swear it sounds better. Though no scientific test can prove so. Which leads to the theory of psychoacoustics - that the difference in sound is all in our minds and not physical at all.

The other issues is back to personal preference - do you prefer your amps have no built in EQ and therefore, if high quality aka without distortion through power range, does not color the sound in any audible way (some call this clinical - people preferring the "clinical" or clean amps) or a preference for amps that do in fact color the sound, and when high end they are built so on purpose. Maybe the amp makes the sound "warmer," for example.
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Old 09-30-2014   #1275
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dspencer View Post
Exactly. Everyone agrees amps can make a sound difference in systems. The issue is whether brand A vs brand B, both have specs good enough to scientifically have no audible distortion/noise/eq difference, sound different outside of psychoacoustics.

Brand A may be +$200, or be a brand the listener prefers, etc., and suddenly people swear it sounds better. Though no scientific test can prove so. Which leads to the theory of psychoacoustics - that the difference in sound is all in our minds and not physical at all.

The other issues is back to personal preference - do you prefer your amps have no built in EQ and therefore, if high quality aka without distortion through power range, does not color the sound in any audible way (some call this clinical - people preferring the "clinical" or clean amps) or a preference for amps that do in fact color the sound, and when high end they are built so on purpose. Maybe the amp makes the sound "warmer," for example.
Your post implies that psychoacoustics is no science, that is simply incorrect.
Please educate yourself on the matter before making ignorant statements.
Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound (including speech and music). It can be further categorized as a branch of psychophysics.

It seems like most people don't care to actually understand reality.
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