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Old 04-14-2013   #151
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
... but the smaller gas tank is lighter therefore it has a better 0-60 miles performance - correct?

Kelvin
That's assuming the larger tank is filled to capacity.

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Old 04-14-2013   #152
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
That's assuming the larger tank is filled to capacity.
Less gas in the tank = less centrifugal force = better handling when cornering

Kelvin

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Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 04-14-2013   #153
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
Less gas in the tank = less centrifugal force = better handling when cornering

Kelvin
More gas = more weight aft of the axle to aid in weight transfer (not squat) under acceleration and less lift under braking *assuming a front engine RWD config tank aft of the axle, and not a 944 Porsche. Just a couple assumptions and weight sucks but I'm trying to win an argument.

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Old 04-15-2013   #154
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Are these still amp analogies?
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Old 04-15-2013   #155
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Ear View Post
Are these still amp analogies?
Amp placement at the cars cg and instant center is of utmost importance to not only improve sq due to less centrifugal force on the amp during cornering but also so it doesn't throw the cars handling balance off. Or something like that.

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Old 04-15-2013   #156
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
More gas = more weight aft of the axle to aid in weight transfer (not squat) under acceleration and less lift under braking *assuming a front engine RWD config tank aft of the axle, and not a 944 Porsche. Just a couple assumptions and weight sucks but I'm trying to win an argument.
I'll give you this one coz I know your knowledge about cars and performance
However I'm always ready to argue about audio

Kelvin

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Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 04-15-2013   #157
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Ear View Post
Are these still amp analogies?
You have 2 cars - 1 is a heavier well engineered car: a MERC S-class (class A/B) while the other is also well built car but with way more technology: a TESLA hybrid (class D)

Since both can cruise on a freeway @ 65mph (20Hz-20kHz) for an hour without showing any signs of strain (distortion), does that make both cars the same (sound the same)?

What if both cars are asked to go from point A to point B while following a pattern (music) - ACCelerate hard for 10 seconds then BRaKe hard for 5 seconds then go to the Left lane and ACC then BRK then go to the Right lane and start all over ; yet both cars arrive @ point B exactly at the same time (end of the song) - will the driver experience the exact same kind of driving sensations (listener)?

How's that for an analogy?

Kelvin

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Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 04-15-2013   #158
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehatedguy View Post
You surely can't be implying that the (performance of the) sum of the parts is greater than the parts itself.
Of course not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Ear View Post
Mark, thank you for the analogy. I, for one, don't know anything about the differences between what's inside cheap amps and expensive amps. I do, however, know that I like the sound of my Rockford Fosgate 4 channel amp more than my Zed Draconia. The RF is older and was cheaper so I believe psychoacoustics can be removed from the equation. The RF is 75 wpc versus the Draconia's 150wpc so more power can be removed from the equation. Maybe my ears like class AB over class D? Idk
FWIW, psychoacoustics can NEVER be removed from the equation unless you specifically control for it. Expectation is one thing, but knowing in advance that they are different amps is another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
You have 2 cars - 1 is a heavier well engineered car: a MERC S-class (class A/B) while the other is also well built car but with way more technology: a TESLA hybrid (class D)

Since both can cruise on a freeway @ 65mph (20Hz-20kHz) for an hour without showing any signs of strain (distortion), does that make both cars the same (sound the same)?

What if both cars are asked to go from point A to point B while following a pattern (music) - ACCelerate hard for 10 seconds then BRaKe hard for 5 seconds then go to the Left lane and ACC then BRK then go to the Right lane and start all over ; yet both cars arrive @ point B exactly at the same time (end of the song) - will the driver experience the exact same kind of driving sensations (listener)?

How's that for an analogy?

Kelvin
More like:

"accelerate a little bit for 10 seconds, lightly brake, take a nap, eat a sandwich, accelerate up to 20mph again."

20-20k is easy. Let's see how these fuckers do with RF, and then we can use the accelerate and brake hard analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery
What I wanted to say is that amps ... sound the same.

Last edited by MarkZ; 04-15-2013 at 07:18 AM..
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Old 04-17-2013   #159
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by MarkZ View Post
I believe this point was addressed too, although I might be thinking of another thread.

The great fallacy among "audiophiles" is that a piece of equipment is defined by the "quality" of the components inside. I think they believe that because they don't know how the actual equipment WORKS, so the differences must be with the guts. Well, that's somewhat true, but it's less about the "quality" of the components, and more about the "quality" of the design. A great design can use cheap components.

If you brought an amplifier to me and said, "Mark, how can I make this amp better??" I would first say, "Better how?" Then you would probably say you want improved distortion performance, lower noise, flatter frequency response from 20-20k, etc. To achieve those three things, virtually every modification I would suggest would probably be related to the design, not the components selected within the design. In fact, with a few exceptions, it's usually a bad idea to replace components in an already well-thought-out design.

So, the difference between your Orion amp and, say, the post-DEI Orion amps has less to do with the company putting "name brand" components inside, and more to do with the design overhaul that occurred when they bought out Orion.

But even more importantly, the fact is that there are a shitload of ways to skin a cat. You can alter a circuit to look completely different from another one, but make it behave in the same exact manner.

IMO, some of you guys should spend less time wondering about what's inside your amplifiers and more time trying to figure out how to objectively and systematically measure amplifier performance. Because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is what comes out of the ass of the amplifier, and whether or not it's as clean as the other amplifier.




Been done. Search the site.
Yep, the "ass end of the amplifier". That is what I do. Level match the suckers and listen to well known tracks. Amplifiers with the same factory power ratings sound entirely different. Properly set up. Please enlighten me on this phenomenon. Nothing biased. In fact, some of the amplifiers which I liked better were not mine. Disappointing, to say the least.
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Old 04-17-2013   #160
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I like moar powah :P

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Old 04-17-2013   #161
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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I like moar powah :P
Good for you. "clap hands"
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Old 04-17-2013   #162
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I stopped listening to amplifiers many years ago... I decided to listen to music, instead. Much more rewarding!
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Old 04-17-2013   #163
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Meh, I don't really get it personally, taking car audio this seriously I mean. I'm not in my car long enough to listen much more than 2 or 3 songs at a time usually all while bumper to bumper traffic, cussing or reacting to stupid drivers or being annoyed at home skillet over there driving along side of me blasting four clipping 15's of some self absorbed rapper repeating how gangsta G he is wit dem shkanky ho's bull crap as his trunk rattles like someone's in there trying to bust their way out with a broken coil spring. Toss in some road noise, the hill jack behind me in the Diesel with winter tires who lost his exhaust, the distracting blonde trying to air out her pussy with her leg up on the dash on the other side of me, the douchebag in front who can't signal properly ..etc, I mean it's always something.
I learned that no amount of sound deadening or quality amplifier shuts out all that crap. So long as the amp isn't noisy I don't bother getting too fancy with it.
All I know is you guys must live and drive through some nice quiet countryside's far more often and longer than I get to or something.

I do all my real listening at home where it's much more quiet and relaxing with a good pair of can's and amp. Now that's where it's at
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Old 04-17-2013   #164
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundhertz View Post
Yep, the "ass end of the amplifier". That is what I do. Level match the suckers and listen to well known tracks. Amplifiers with the same factory power ratings sound entirely different. Properly set up. Please enlighten me on this phenomenon. Nothing biased. In fact, some of the amplifiers which I liked better were not mine. Disappointing, to say the least.
Factory power ratings are about as useful as arguing over who manufactured the resistors in the amp. What the manufacturer stamps on the heatsink is probably not an accurate depiction of what's coming out of the ass end of the amplifier.

I'm very curious in getting my hands on the two amps that people report are so markedly different. I want to figure out WHY they're different. In other words, objectively measuring what's coming out of the ass end of the amplifiers and correlating that to what we hear. You guys aren't even a little interested in that question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery
What I wanted to say is that amps ... sound the same.
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Old 04-17-2013   #165
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightScreams View Post
I do all my real listening at home where it's much more quiet and relaxing with a good pair of can's and amp. Now that's where it's at
I hope you're talking about your wife and not headphones. I find wearing headphones to be too fatiguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery
What I wanted to say is that amps ... sound the same.
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Old 04-17-2013   #166
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by NightScreams View Post
Meh, I don't really get it personally, taking car audio this seriously I mean. I'm not in my car long enough to listen much more than 2 or 3 songs at a time usually all while bumper to bumper traffic, cussing or reacting to stupid drivers or being annoyed at home skillet over there driving along side of me blasting four clipping 15's of some self absorbed rapper repeating how gangsta G he is wit dem shkanky ho's bull crap as his trunk rattles like someone's in there trying to bust their way out with a broken coil spring. Toss in some road noise, the hill jack behind me in the Diesel with winter tires who lost his exhaust, the distracting blonde trying to air out her pussy with her leg up on the dash on the other side of me, the douchebag in front who can't signal properly ..etc, I mean it's always something.
I learned that no amount of sound deadening or quality amplifier shuts out all that crap. So long as the amp isn't noisy I don't bother getting too fancy with it.
All I know is you guys must live and drive through some nice quiet countryside's far more often and longer than I get to or something.

I do all my real listening at home where it's much more quiet and relaxing with a good pair of can's and amp. Now that's where it's at
I drive around all day long and I live in a calm part of the world so I do bother to have a nice system in my truck. Even though I have a nice stereo at home, I get to listen more in my truck.
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Old 04-17-2013   #167
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkZ View Post
I'm very curious in getting my hands on the two amps that people report are so markedly different. I want to figure out WHY they're different. In other words, objectively measuring what's coming out of the ass end of the amplifiers and correlating that to what we hear. You guys aren't even a little interested in that question?
I'm interested in that question and a couple others - which sounds better, how much does it cost, and where can I get one?
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Old 04-17-2013   #168
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightScreams View Post
Meh, I don't really get it personally, taking car audio this seriously I mean. I'm not in my car long enough to listen much more than 2 or 3 songs at a time usually all while bumper to bumper traffic, cussing or reacting to stupid drivers or being annoyed at home skillet over there driving along side of me blasting four clipping 15's of some self absorbed rapper repeating how gangsta G he is wit dem shkanky ho's bull crap as his trunk rattles like someone's in there trying to bust their way out with a broken coil spring. Toss in some road noise, the hill jack behind me in the Diesel with winter tires who lost his exhaust, the distracting blonde trying to air out her pussy with her leg up on the dash on the other side of me, the douchebag in front who can't signal properly ..etc, I mean it's always something.
I learned that no amount of sound deadening or quality amplifier shuts out all that crap. So long as the amp isn't noisy I don't bother getting too fancy with it.
All I know is you guys must live and drive through some nice quiet countryside's far more often and longer than I get to or something.

I do all my real listening at home where it's much more quiet and relaxing with a good pair of can's and amp. Now that's where it's at
Really don't want to be in your shoes

Kelvin

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Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 04-17-2013   #169
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
Really don't want to be in your shoes

Kelvin
Yeah, no shit, lol! I live in a spot with nice roads and 90% country driving. In a nice quiet, sound deadened BMW 5 series. I actually CAN hear my music, even when I am driving! :-0
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Old 04-18-2013   #170
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

yeah I live in a City where it can get very packed, not as bad as NY or nothing but it's certainly enough annoyances and external sounds to where there is no way I could listen hard enough to hear every little instrument so no point. The JLA XD amp sounds clean and clear enough for me. I mean I could crank it really loud like some do to shut it out but I find it a tad disrespectful plus I don't care for it too loud anymore.

Plus working construction without hearing protection for so many years didn't help either.
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Old 05-01-2013   #171
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I'll bite this hook. I have much more experience in home audio. I have noticed a difference in sound in home amplifiers over the years. Some amplifiers from the 1970's had a very warm sound that is pleasing to my ears (Marantz, Sansui, to name a couple).

In the 80's I purchased a Carver receiver based on it having the same quality. I've owned two Harmon Kardons that also had that "feel". Some like it, some don't.

My last unit was a high end Onkyo. I found it to be very accurate, but I truly missed that sound.

After 5 years of struggling with it, I went out and bought a new Marantz. Not quite as warm as the others, but somewhere in between.

So in my opinion there can be a difference in how the sound "feels" to me.
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Old 05-01-2013   #172
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by MarkZ View Post
Factory power ratings are about as useful as arguing over who manufactured the resistors in the amp. What the manufacturer stamps on the heatsink is probably not an accurate depiction of what's coming out of the ass end of the amplifier.
"But my Audiobahn has 15000 wpc printed on it with chrome flames, that means it has to be totally bad ass and do rated right?"

Seriously though I've also noticed that most of the time when a company slaps there power ratings all over the box, manual, and the amp and put's "vents/intakes/decals/random shit" all over it, it usually isn't all that great. Kinda like when a 16 year old bolts wings and a fart cannon to a cavalier to tell the world how bad ass he is, all it really says is "I'm a tool and don't realize that no matter what I do it's still a caviler and I probably should have saved my money and gotten something that is actually fast". The same goes for amps a Boss/Legacy/Pyle can slap whatever "edgy/cool/boss" decals and print 6,000,000,WATTS on every square inch of the box and amp, but in the end it's still a cheap amp.

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Old 05-01-2013   #173
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by inspector3711 View Post
I'll bite this hook. I have much more experience in home audio. I have noticed a difference in sound in home amplifiers over the years. Some amplifiers from the 1970's had a very warm sound that is pleasing to my ears (Marantz, Sansui, to name a couple).

In the 80's I purchased a Carver receiver based on it having the same quality. I've owned two Harmon Kardons that also had that "feel". Some like it, some don't.

My last unit was a high end Onkyo. I found it to be very accurate, but I truly missed that sound.

After 5 years of struggling with it, I went out and bought a new Marantz. Not quite as warm as the others, but somewhere in between.

So in my opinion there can be a difference in how the sound "feels" to me.
Home systems are my personal reference for SQ and achieving that type of sound in the car has been challenging.
Without proof though I would guess that the warm sound has more to do with bass being reproduced by speakers in nice solid wood enclosures of appropriate size, corner speaker locations for bass reflection / enhancement as well as a relatively quiet environment that tends not to create the challenging peaks and nulls present in a vehicle's cabin- as opposed to the idea that the warmth originates from amplifier characteristics.

Anyone ever connected a home system to their car drivers?

Pioneer P99 source, JL HD and Slash amplifiers, HAT, Morel, Scan Speak and Focal drivers.
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Well the two amps here were the Genesis dual mono and the Xtant 2200i. The Xtant just sounded and performed better. Both great companies with non-bloated stats.
One thing I find funny. How much power do tweeters really need? Because, with my JL900/5, my highs sounded a bit harsh. Absolutely no harshness with my orion nts. So, goes to show, it's not just about power. Period.
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Well the two amps here were the Genesis dual mono and the Xtant 2200i. The Xtant just sounded and performed better. Both great companies with non-bloated stats.
There are exceptions to the rule and those companies would be two of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by soundhertz View Post
One thing I find funny. How much power do tweeters really need? Because, with my JL900/5, my highs sounded a bit harsh. Absolutely no harshness with my orion nts. So, goes to show, it's not just about power. Period.
The overall design has a lot more to do with the way an amp sounds than how many watts it puts out.

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