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Old 05-01-2013   #176
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-FiDelity View Post
"But my Audiobahn has 15000 wpc printed on it with chrome flames, that means it has to be totally bad ass and do rated right?"

Seriously though I've also noticed that most of the time when a company slaps there power ratings all over the box, manual, and the amp and put's "vents/intakes/decals/random shit" all over it, it usually isn't all that great. Kinda like when a 16 year old bolts wings and a fart cannon to a cavalier to tell the world how bad ass he is, all it really says is "I'm a tool and don't realize that no matter what I do it's still a caviler and I probably should have saved my money and gotten something that is actually fast". The same goes for amps a Boss/Legacy/Pyle can slap whatever "edgy/cool/boss" decals and print 6,000,000,WATTS on every square inch of the box and amp, but in the end it's still a cheap amp.
That would be a direct result of BAD technical plannig, a poor layout and poor elements chosen.

You will get the WATTS that is no doubt, but along side with them you will get poor SNR and when heat is going up, poor performance.

Noisy power suppliers, noisy layout of elements, bad filtering etc.

Then when you get an amp which is quarter of that power but it is strong enough to move your speaker right, you get puzzled that it sounds better - the above is why.

And remeber: With great power, comes great responsibility

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Old 05-02-2013   #177
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Without proof though I would guess that the warm sound has more to do with bass being reproduced by speakers in nice solid wood enclosures of appropriate size, corner speaker locations for bass reflection / enhancement as well as a relatively quiet environment that tends not to create the challenging peaks and nulls present in a vehicle's cabin- as opposed to the idea that the warmth originates from amplifier characteristics.
Certainly speakers and room acoustics have some bearing on sound, but I was specifically speaking to differences in amplifier sound. This difference is subjective, but I have compared different amplifiers side by side many times. The warmth I'm pointing out I typically associate with tube amplifiers.

I have even gone as far as comparing my wife's guitar amplifiers. She has two solid state units and one tube amp. There is a night and day difference between them.

Bob Carver spent a good amount of time trying to model the tube sound into his solid state amplifiers and he succeeded to some degree. I haven't listened to his newer Sunfire brand, but I have a feeling he went down the same avenue.

You can take a Carver receiver and compare it in the same room with the same speakers and speaker placement to say a newer Sony or Pioneer and you will hear a difference. The same can be said for the old Marantz and Sansui receivers.
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Old 05-12-2013   #178
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I challenge the people who are against amps sounding different to go and get some of the high end amps I have owned and try them against their new class d stuff. Not even close when you go to the old high end amps. Been there, tried that. Wished the small class d would have but simply can't compete with sound.
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Old 05-12-2013   #179
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

An amp is an amp..until you turn it on.

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Old 05-12-2013   #180
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by Hi-FiDelity View Post
An amp is an amp..until you turn it on.
Exactly
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Old 05-12-2013   #181
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundhertz View Post
I challenge the people who are against amps sounding different to go and get some of the high end amps I have owned and try them against their new class d stuff. Not even close when you go to the old high end amps. Been there, tried that. Wished the small class d would have but simply can't compete with sound.
I've got a McIntosh 4 channel and JL HD amps. The HDs are powering my system including the Esotar 110s which are VERY revealing tweeters. The Mac is collecting dust. Why, because there was absolutely no difference in the way they sounded except the HDs have a non existent noise floor and are better behaved when pushed to the limit. The decision to go class D was very simple. No difference in sound quality with all of the advantages of class D.

You either wanted to hear a difference or you tried a crap class D. I'm not afraid to spend money on audio, my tweeters cost as much as some people's systems. If there was anything to be gained from an inefficient and overpriced class AB I would have one in my car.

In the beginning I used to tell people what's in the car and more than half said they could tell I'm running class D because of the artifacts and harshness. When I stopped saying I had class D and even lied saying they were powered by the Mac all of a sudden people thought the system was great and warm and all of the usual stuff people believe about AB amps.

There is no difference in a good class D full range amp and an old AB unless the AB is coloring the sound. There was no difference in the Mac, HD, and $90 Interfire AB amp at lower levels.

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Old 05-12-2013   #182
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
I've got a McIntosh 4 channel and JL HD amps. The HDs are powering my system including the Esotar 110s which are VERY revealing tweeters. The Mac is collecting dust. Why, because there was absolutely no difference in the way they sounded except the HDs have a non existent noise floor and are better behaved when pushed to the limit. The decision to go class D was very simple. No difference in sound quality with all of the advantages of class D.

You either wanted to hear a difference or you tried a crap class D. I'm not afraid to spend money on audio, my tweeters cost as much as some people's systems. If there was anything to be gained from an inefficient and overpriced class AB I would have one in my car.

In the beginning I used to tell people what's in the car and more than half said they could tell I'm running class D because of the artifacts and harshness. When I stopped saying I had class D and even lied saying they were powered by the Mac all of a sudden people thought the system was great and warm and all of the usual stuff people believe about AB amps.

There is no difference in a good class D full range amp and an old AB unless the AB is coloring the sound. There was no difference in the Mac, HD, and $90 Interfire AB amp at lower levels.
Agree 100%. My opinion as well. Tried tons of amps, found that speakers, install and DSP makes the biggest difference ^^

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Old 05-12-2013   #183
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuickGN View Post
I've got a McIntosh 4 channel and JL HD amps. The HDs are powering my system including the Esotar 110s which are VERY revealing tweeters. The Mac is collecting dust. Why, because there was absolutely no difference in the way they sounded except the HDs have a non existent noise floor and are better behaved when pushed to the limit. The decision to go class D was very simple. No difference in sound quality with all of the advantages of class D.

You either wanted to hear a difference or you tried a crap class D. I'm not afraid to spend money on audio, my tweeters cost as much as some people's systems. If there was anything to be gained from an inefficient and overpriced class AB I would have one in my car.

In the beginning I used to tell people what's in the car and more than half said they could tell I'm running class D because of the artifacts and harshness. When I stopped saying I had class D and even lied saying they were powered by the Mac all of a sudden people thought the system was great and warm and all of the usual stuff people believe about AB amps.

There is no difference in a good class D full range amp and an old AB unless the AB is coloring the sound. There was no difference in the Mac, HD, and $90 Interfire AB amp at lower levels.
Well, maybe the Mac was your problem. Kidding. I tried the JL HD and I was hoping it would suffice for space saving install. I really was. No bias at all. I was hoping to make the change but top end and bottom end suffered compared to my NTs. So, sold the JL. The Jl isn't smooth enough on the top without big time EQing. And the NTs have a beautiful bottom end like no other that I've tried.
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Old 05-12-2013   #184
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Agree 100%. My opinion as well. Tried tons of amps, found that speakers, install and DSP makes the biggest difference ^^
Really? Well, why not buy a nice source unit, shitty speakers, shitty amps and shitty everything? Just dsp the hell out of it. Perfect.
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Old 05-12-2013   #185
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by soundhertz View Post
Really? Well, why not buy a nice source unit, shitty speakers, shitty amps and shitty everything? Just dsp the hell out of it. Perfect.
Is that a well thought out response? I sure hope not, for your audio sake.

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Old 05-12-2013   #186
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

lol.. very entertaining read!!.the jl full range class d amps have come along way siince xtant released the 100 watt monoblocks 10 or so years ago.. I can always hear the difference between amps that I swap in and out of my system,but only at very high volume which is where my volumes always at.. lol.. with better amps I can achieve the same volume with my crossovers turned down, achieving better midbass punch without any audible distortion.. and also allows the same volume without giving me a headacheafter an hour of high volume listening.. I'm a fan of 8 volt eclipse decks before an audiocontrol 3.1 volume all the way up on CD player with volume controlled by the 3.1halfdin processor..with a clean source,a nice linear volume control and real CDs.. lol.. I can always hear a difference, I may not remember what the previous amp sounded like, but I can tell if my midbass sounds like hell and if my tweets are giving me a headache.. for those of us who listen to music at highvolumes at all times with lots of different types of music and who know everysong in our music collection very personally, there is a difference between amps! ..the only problem with the old inneficient amps like the esoteric e8 later bought by diamond and called the d8 series is that u had to up ur alt amperage and get a couple AgM batteries to power them.. but if u do so, u would hear a dramatic difference at extreme levels over time...
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Old 05-12-2013   #187
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

especially if u have real kickpods that are solidly built and ur mids aren't in ur door.. lol..good kicks+high powerhandling low distortion mids coupled with a clean high-power amp =awesome midbass and and a system that's actually fun to listen 2 at highvolumes..
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Old 05-12-2013   #188
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundhertz View Post
I challenge the people who are against amps sounding different to go and get some of the high end amps I have owned and try them against their new class d stuff. Not even close when you go to the old high end amps. Been there, tried that. Wished the small class d would have but simply can't compete with sound.
I challenge you to take the Richard Clark challenge. Since you can tell the difference, it should be easy for you to win $10,000 from him. Just think, you'll be the hit of all the audiophile magazines!

In all honesty, the fact is even in tests where amplifiers weren't altered to measure the same, there were many instances where the most golden of ears could not pick out which amp was which with any statistical significance. Now, let's factor in the worst reproduction environment known to man, the car, and the subtle differences between how the various quality amplifiers sound really become a moot point.

Then again, if I was super loaded, I would run Audison Thesis amplifiers just because I could.

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Old 05-13-2013   #189
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

lol.. so ill install a zapco iforce amp in my car and a zapco competition series amp in my car of equal power there gonna sound the same?..I already know they don't, when I spend an hour trying to adjust levels and wondering if maybe I have a speaker out of phase just to come to the conclusion that everything's hooked up correctly, and that its just the amp ,then I can confidently say I can hear a difference, cuz that's happened a 1000 times..
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Old 05-13-2013   #190
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Then again, if I was super loaded, I would run Audison Thesis amplifiers just because I could.
Gives me something to talk about is why I bought them
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Old 05-13-2013   #191
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

it would be interesting to take that challenge..if the comparison test was held in my car with with my music and with my volume levels then it could possibly be very telling..
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Old 05-13-2013   #192
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge FAQ

Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ

Comments from Richard Clark

Quote:
of course my challenge includes tube amps---thats what got it started to begin with----while most tube amps have more distortion than transistor amps it is still usually below the audible level of a couple percent---the biggest audible difference is like Big T said---the higher output impedance created by the transformer windings causes a slight frequency dependant amplitude difference---while this is usually less than a db or so except in the worst designs (the "super" amps without negative feedback really have this problem big time)the effect is subtle but audible-----and since it naturally happens at the resonant places of the speaker it is sometimes very pronounced----it is easily duplicated with a small value resistor in series with the speaker-----RC-

and just to show you how people misunderstand my challenge someone recently told me he could pass the test if he didn't have to be "blindfolded"----thats what his understanding of a "double blind" test was---so much for scientific understanding.....
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Old 05-13-2013   #193
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote from the article: "Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?

No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world. The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp.

Most people perceive slight differences in amplitude as quality differences rather than loudness. The louder component sounds “faster, more detailed, more full”, not just louder. This perceptual phenomenon is responsible for many people thinking they liked the sound of a component when really they just liked the way it was set up.

I changed amps in my system to another one with the same measured power and I hear a sound quality difference. Does this show that the test results are invalid?

No. Installing a new amplifier involves setting the gains and crossovers, and any slight change you make to those settings is going to affect how things sound."

So is this why my friends car sounded so much better when he replaced his Pyle amp with an Arc Audio amp? Because of the gain and crossover settings? Or is it because the claimed power of the Pyle wasn't the real amount of power it had? I can't remember the claimed power of both amps but I know they were close.
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Old 05-13-2013   #194
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

hmm.. hard to disagree with a scientist or Dr...lol.. wonder if he ripps some three6 Mafia on his caraudio system...I'm kinda jaded maybe because a friend of mine owns an electronics repair shop next door to our shop, he's an engineer and tells me that kind of stuff, but he also tells me my dynaudio special 25's don't sound as good as his klipschorns and I think klipsche speakers sound like dookey..lol.. and everytime he sits in my car I get the volume to 50% and he cringes like alil beeeotch.. lmao! ..I may be wrong on this subject but ur not gonna find me installing a crunch amp in my car anytime soon because my subconscious will tell my ears that I'm hearing noise and sloppy midbass and thin sounding tweets..
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Old 05-13-2013   #195
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

I see what ur saying.. that's actually interesting.. and I agree level and processing controls will vary greatly and play a role in the final comparison.. honestly the other day I installed a Jensen amp and hooked it to a set of Morel tempo 6x9's in 6x9 boxes in a full sized blazer and it blew me away!!.lol I listened to about 10 songs before I delivered the vehicle to the customer.. I love car audio
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Old 05-13-2013   #196
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

I find that one very interesting xD

Quote:
How can it be possible that a basic system with such a price difference against the "reference" one, poorly placed, using the cheapest signal cables found, couldn't be distinguished from the more expensive one?
Good question ^^

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Old 05-13-2013   #197
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21 pages of debate with respectable views from both sides, but it is futile.

All I can say at this point is that as long as the gear is affordable, durable, low distortion, quiet, small enough to pack as many channels into the allotted space, and has the power& features I need, then I'm going to use it. I love my old AB amps, but getting 7 channels in a small amp rack ain't easy. If whatever fits that criteria is not considered high end, then so be it.

05 Taco- 80prs//Helix DSP//PDX F4 >> Titan 8"/ PDX V9 >> ND20FA-6, SB65WBAC25-4, RSS265HO-4
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Old 05-13-2013   #198
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

good point,they are called systems afterall.. u can only fit so much equipment and quote a customer so much $...but now that I think about it, I have always opted for better speakers ran off a quality entry level amp if it was necessary to stay within a budget..I just hope that young car audio minds don't take this thread the wrong way because a crappy amp isn't crappy amp period!! u will be more succeptible to noise, overrated power,and breakdowns..what this thread is really saying is that a propperly designed amp compared to the same amp that has been upgraded to better caps gold plated rcas etc..will not have a noticeable audible difference...once u have reached the point of dimminishing returns the point of this thread hold true on any subject.. but if every aspect of ur system has been excessively addressed then the accumulation of all those little differences will make a difference.. not only in sound but also longevity..
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Old 05-13-2013   #199
 
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Talking Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
I challenge you to take the Richard Clark challenge. Since you can tell the difference, it should be easy for you to win $10,000 from him. Just think, you'll be the hit of all the audiophile magazines!

In all honesty, the fact is even in tests where amplifiers weren't altered to measure the same, there were many instances where the most golden of ears could not pick out which amp was which with any statistical significance. Now, let's factor in the worst reproduction environment known to man, the car, and the subtle differences between how the various quality amplifiers sound really become a moot point.

Then again, if I was super loaded, I would run Audison Thesis amplifiers just because I could.
Just think of the beautiful amps I will buy with my $10,000.
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Old 05-13-2013   #200
 
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Default Re: HIGHER END AMP SQ IS A MYTH

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Originally Posted by t3sn4f2 View Post
Is that a well thought out response? I sure hope not, for your audio sake.
It was a joke.
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