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Old 04-01-2013   #26
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman View Post
EQ / DSP are 'band aids' for those who do not know how to design and install a system.


>^..^<
WEll , I was planning to buy a audison bit one, but now i have 2 audiocontrol eqs and eqx, as I have a 3 way system and an adicional focal woofer as central speaker, and a cdt 1220 sub, Then With the 880prs i have dsp isnt it? I r3alize how relative is the SQ my wife doesnt want the volume more than 15% and the steve murano my own way song was the best one to sound check, as I BUY MORE equipment that song is getting worse and worse jojo and acustic songs and brass sections getting better.. hehe

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Old 04-01-2013   #27
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman View Post
EQ / DSP are 'band aids' for those who do not know how to design and install a system.


>^..^<
that is a silly statement. for an environment like a car where you are off-set to one side. the cabin is less than ideal. reflections. speakers are not in ideal enclosures. speakers are not in front of you, but instead to the side.

doesnt matter how good you are, a DSP can correct for a lot of stuff install cant.

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Old 04-01-2013   #28
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman View Post
EQ / DSP are 'band aids' for those who do not know how to design and install a system.


>^..^<
Those who do not know how to design and install a system tend to call DSP "band aids".

Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoofery
What I wanted to say is that amps ... sound the same.
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Old 04-01-2013   #29
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

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Originally Posted by MarkZ View Post
Those who do not know how to design and install a system tend to call DSP "band aids".
FIght fight hehe na, is interesting to see diffrent opinions, theres a thread about time aligment, and nothing is written on stones ,,

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Old 04-01-2013   #30
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

If DSP's are for people who don't know how to to intall, then count me in. In my car, the 80PRS made a huge difference with just the TA. I reset the TA to factory to compare the difference and I couldn't believe how it killed the soundstage.
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Old 04-01-2013   #31
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
SRS Wow effects are software DSP, right?

put on a good set of headphones and listen to stereo, then switch in and out, the SRS Wow effects on your media player.

in that instance, I can hear the artificiality of DSP, and to me the SRS Wow is coloring the music to such an extent that I prefer stereo.

and that's how it's been throughout my life with various effects processors, for whatever reason I am able to make stereo sound "right" in even severely mis-matched sound system locations.


if that's a peculiar quality I don't know, I think it may be similar to the way some people have the neural pathway to curl their tongue like a U and others don't.
goofy EQ curves and reverb effects to give "live", "hall", etc are not really a good comparison to a good DSP that has a 8band PEQ with xover and T/A.

BTW, "DSP" stands for "digital signal processor" its a physical piece of hardware.

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Old 04-02-2013   #32
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Im finding myself turning off loudness, sound retri3ver, bbe (i dont know its use) bmx is other function, on the 880prs that is the 88prs but premier (which H.U retail higher? 880prs or 88prs.. anybody knows a system that is using pasive xover and sounds amazing or its a rule that I got ti go active to achieve S.Q? Any suggestions,, excu se e my english

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Old 04-12-2013   #33
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by file audio View Post
Im finding myself turning off loudness, sound retri3ver, bbe (i dont know its use) bmx is other function, on the 880prs that is the 88prs but premier (which H.U retail higher? 880prs or 88prs.. anybody knows a system that is using pasive xover and sounds amazing or its a rule that I got ti go active to achieve S.Q? Any suggestions,, excu se e my english
Tom shaw i think is his name was/is one of if not the head guy for team arc runs a passive set up. On the original topic i believe hearing loss is another big factor into what you prefer i for instance cannot hear above 16khz but can hear down to 13 or so hz so i would be looking for a different response than someone who can hear up to say 20khz and down to 25hz. Either way this has been a very interesting read
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Old 04-15-2013   #34
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodstuff View Post
You've got....."the fever". Welcome to hell. LoL.
A year ago I couldn't fathom spending $800 on a processor.

Let's add up what I've purchased in the last 2 months...

Alpine PDX-F4
Alpine PDX-M6
Acoustic Elegance AEIB12 x3
Melodic Acoustic 8" Intimid8r midwoofers
Dayton RS125s
Audison Bit One
Endless amounts of little shit... RCA cables, fiberglass, flocking, screws, inserts, tools and materials.

I'm getting dizzy
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Old 03-02-2014   #35
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Subject comments become much more meaningful when everyone can agree on common definitions and actually describe what they are hearing in scientific, repeatable ways. Sean Olive's blogspot is really worth a visit.

I am surprised there have been so few comments on Harman's How to Listen Software mentioned earlier in this thread. I spent a few hours with the program and it was very educational. Here are some screen shots of the program. I was able to get up to level 7 for band identification after an hour of practice, but found it challenging above that level. My success rate dropped to about 60-65% when trying to identifying EQ peaks and dips when more than 8 frequency bands were given (at default settings gain 6dB, Q Factor 1). At least when I fail, usually I pick the band just above or below the correct band. I need more practice. Higher quality headphones and sound card would probably help, but not sure by what factor. The program will allow changes to the gain, Q factor, and number of bands which is really useful. I think anyone trying to tune their system by ear using DSP would really benefit from playing with the program. If you think you have golden ears, try increasing the bands to 24 and reducing the peaks/dips to 3 dB gain.
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Old 03-02-2014   #36
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

thanks for posting this, had i known it existed i would've already tried this. i think i will find good and bad surprises;probably similar results to yours.

changes coming....
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Old 03-02-2014   #37
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schramm View Post
Subject comments become much more meaningful when everyone can agree on common definitions and actually describe what they are hearing in scientific, repeatable ways. Sean Olive's blogspot is really worth a visit.

I am surprised there have been so few comments on Harman's How to Listen Software mentioned earlier in this thread. I spent a few hours with the program and it was very educational. Here are some screen shots of the program. I was able to get up to level 7 for band identification after an hour of practice, but found it challenging above that level. My success rate dropped to about 60-65% when trying to identifying EQ peaks and dips when more than 8 frequency bands were given (at default settings gain 6dB, Q Factor 1). At least when I fail, usually I pick the band just above or below the correct band. I need more practice. Higher quality headphones and sound card would probably help, but not sure by what factor. The program will allow changes to the gain, Q factor, and number of bands which is really useful. I think anyone trying to tune their system by ear using DSP would really benefit from playing with the program. If you think you have golden ears, try increasing the bands to 24 and reducing the peaks/dips to 3 dB gain.
Speaking of golden ear, check this test out. I am about halfway through the golden ear level and I am struggling with the same thing you are. I went into it without training first, though. I need to take a few minutes to play with the training before I try it again.

An Audiophile Workout: Philips Golden Ears Training | InnerFidelity
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Old 03-03-2014   #38
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman View Post
I agree totally. Live recordings are barely tolerable for background music. If I am listening for the enjoyment of the music it won't be a live recording. FWIW ...most studio recordings are not good enough for critical listening. This is why most of my CDs are either TELARC or Mobile Fidelity. It is getting harder and harder to find quality recordings these days.

With a good recording you should be able to tell if the piano is a Steinway / Baldwin / Yamaha or if the organ is a Hammond B3 or a synthesizer. If the drummer is using a Remo or a Ludwig bottom snare head ...or Paiste / Zildjian cymbals or even wood/nylon tipped sticks. Or if the vocals are through a Shure or a Sennheiser microphone. Or if the bass player is using flat or round wound strings.


>^..^<
Interesting stuff.

You hit on a key point -- great recording is what allows one to differentiate this stuff. Amplifier, speaker,etc........helps but not as much.

For those that can tell those differences (experienced musicians only) that's cool stuff. But it is only good so long as it is musical sounding and not "clinical".

As far as the evolution of a listener, man I've come a LONG way the last 13 years. My first car system was on treble boost +5, now with much better tweeters, amps, etc....it's a -2, haha. I can't even imagine how ear piercing that first system was to listen to, but back then I thought it was great.

Amongst "trained listeners" there are those with the ability to call out a brighter/thinner sound vs. a more relaxed warmer sound more quickly than others. Good vs. poor dynamics, presence or lack thereof....a "boxy" sound that's not out in the soundstage versus one that really projects. Coherent sound vs. incoherent sound, a bit harder. There's more, but that's just a few to start out.

Untrained rookie listeners have only two criteria for the most part:

a) Loud
b) Clean (or Clear)

I hear those two words every time a non audio enthusiast listens to my car or home system. So frustrating.

Maybe you can add how much bass there is. Naturally it's just bass, not midbass or subbass, hehe.

BTW, that's why those smiley face EQ curves are so popular with the amateurs -- it gives more an impression of "stuff going on" than a mostly midrange-centric sound. Lots of bass and treble is not real sound, but the masses tend to like it.

I also have to put this out there because I see it on audio forums a lot, but detail is also a bit of an overrated quality in SQ. All things equal, more detail is nice. But detail when the tonal balance sucks, or system doesn't project....it's boring.

Finally, becoming a great listener is not just listening to sound systems a lot, per se, but listening to a lot of different types of music on these sound systems. The great diversity of awesome, good, average, bad, terrible recordings for quite a few of us is pretty real. By hearing a lot of recordings, you tend to learn what is good sound, and then that helps you gravitate to what the "correct" sound is with gear.

The digital/analog thing takes that another level, but that's a discussion for another day!
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Old 03-03-2014   #39
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catman View Post
EQ / DSP are 'band aids' for those who do not know how to design and install a system.


>^..^<


Because it is even possible to correct phase issues and group delay issues due to listener placement and reflexion of the car without DSP.

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Old 03-03-2014   #40
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Default

Saying a dsp/eq is a bandaid is because you dont know how to use them correctly.

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Original post whore!
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Old 03-03-2014   #41
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

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Originally Posted by minbari View Post
Saying a dsp/eq is a bandaid is because you dont know how to use them correctly.

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I think the gist of the anti-dsp/eq people in this thread isn't so much that it's a complete band aid, but there are some people who don't put enough attention to overall system design, speaker choice, amplifier choice, amplifier gain setting, crossover points, subwoofer/midbass enclosure tuning, etc. and instead show a cavalier attitude that DSP and EQ can fix all sorts of issues.

How often do you see people just say:

"I don't care if the enclosure is too small, I'll just EQ the bass in"?

Also, if a tweeter is too bright, just fix it in EQ.

With regards to DSP, I think it's less of an issue unless someone wants to put speakers very haphazardly in a car and just time align them all instead of making a conscious attempt to put them in ideal locations in the first place.

In my opinion, DSP and EQ used too much is not good. At best it's used as spice to fix things up.

In home audio you would never use those devices. That's a perfect example of a bandaid. You place your speakers properly, buy the right gear, treat your room right and you never have to use DSP or EQ.

A car is different, but the philosophy is still somewhat there. I've had nice sounding (but not perfect sounding) cars without them.
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Old 03-03-2014   #42
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Depends how you define SQ. If it means the amount of info. you can hear, or something else. The something else is subjective. No big deal. Happy listening!
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Old 03-03-2014   #43
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

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Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
I think the gist of the anti-dsp/eq people in this thread isn't so much that it's a complete band aid, but there are some people who don't put enough attention to overall system design, speaker choice, amplifier choice, amplifier gain setting, crossover points, subwoofer/midbass enclosure tuning, etc. and instead show a cavalier attitude that DSP and EQ can fix all sorts of issues.
Speaker choice and amplifier choice is one point, depend on what kind of sound you want (and your budget...)

Amplifier gain setting is something you have to do once for all (for a specific couple unit/amplifier), and then never touche it again. The gain setting is not a level setting!

Crossover points have to be defined by looking at the frequency response of each speaker mesured in the car from the listening point (usually the driver's head position). It will be dissymetrical between left and right due to the listener offset in the car, the speakers positions, and all car's reflexions. And the only way to do this is using a DSP.

Subwoofer/midbass enclosure tuning is mainly the mounting, but the effect of the confined space of the car cannot be tunned by the mounting, that's when the DSP is usefull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
How often do you see people just say:

"I don't care if the enclosure is too small, I'll just EQ the bass in"?

Also, if a tweeter is too bright, just fix it in EQ.

With regards to DSP, I think it's less of an issue unless someone wants to put speakers very haphazardly in a car and just time align them all instead of making a conscious attempt to put them in ideal locations in the first place.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
In my opinion, DSP and EQ used too much is not good. At best it's used as spice to fix things up.
A DSP must be used properly. Depending of the car and the speakers, there will be more or less correction, there isn't a magical number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
In home audio you would never use those devices. That's a perfect example of a bandaid. You place your speakers properly, buy the right gear, treat your room right and you never have to use DSP or EQ.

A car is different, but the philosophy is still somewhat there. I've had nice sounding (but not perfect sounding) cars without them.
In home audio you don't have all the problems you have in car audio.
Some of these problems can only be solved using a DSP (time aligment and phase for exemple).

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Old 03-03-2014   #44
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Default

A DSP is a vital piece of equipment in any SQ oriented system. Saying it's a bandaid is plain stupid.

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Old 03-03-2014   #45
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

DSP is valuable in home audio as well.

some of the best systems out are using the crap out of digital processing, and it's making a huge difference in what we hear.

just like in a car, we are surrounded by choices of where to put furniture, how to fit an audio system into a home is usually after the interior designer gets done, not before.

so in parallels, you're needing to fix things in home audio just like in car audio, and DSP is the magic bullet that addresses everything in one box, no big deal.

saying you can just "treat the room" is pretty far from most people's aesthetics, and saying you can just "put speakers where you want" in a car, is pretty out there too. If we did, we'd have speakers in our field of vision where we drive!


I don't know why it's so hard to accept the new for some people, other than the added complexity and the costs, and the learning curve and the time spent going from one adjustment to the next, it's a piece of cake!


lol..

much better than bread-boarding a passive crossover with 30 different capacitors and coil combinations, and not even building in zobels and notch filters, or trying out different slopes, man... you used to only read about people who did that kind of thing, and it was usually a speaker designer who had mega-bucks speaker models to support.

Now everyone can be a speaker designer, good or bad, and it's good!
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Old 03-03-2014   #46
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

I'm using dual amplifiers and a miniDSP for my home audio system. Everything is high-end with Scan Speak Illumination towers, high current class A amps. Still, adding a DSP improved the system A LOT. I use lots of EQ below 120Hz to fix the room response, active crossovers are really nice to have, especially when you wanna use 4th order filters, passives tend to get complicated quickly.

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Old 03-03-2014   #47
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

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Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
DSP is valuable in home audio as well.

some of the best systems out are using the crap out of digital processing, and it's making a huge difference in what we hear.

just like in a car, we are surrounded by choices of where to put furniture, how to fit an audio system into a home is usually after the interior designer gets done, not before.

so in parallels, you're needing to fix things in home audio just like in car audio, and DSP is the magic bullet that addresses everything in one box, no big deal.

saying you can just "treat the room" is pretty far from most people's aesthetics, and saying you can just "put speakers where you want" in a car, is pretty out there too. If we did, we'd have speakers in our field of vision where we drive!


I don't know why it's so hard to accept the new for some people, other than the added complexity and the costs, and the learning curve and the time spent going from one adjustment to the next, it's a piece of cake!


lol..

much better than bread-boarding a passive crossover with 30 different capacitors and coil combinations, and not even building in zobels and notch filters, or trying out different slopes, man... you used to only read about people who did that kind of thing, and it was usually a speaker designer who had mega-bucks speaker models to support.

Now everyone can be a speaker designer, good or bad, and it's good!
Cajunner, I know many home systems that sound good without DSP. There's really no need for it, and treating a room is not like building a studio. It can be done without spending a fortune and/or remodeling the entire room. Also, if I couldn't place speakers in a living room where I wanted I have bigger problems!

And the problem with DSP from a technical level is that it takes away some dynamics.

That's a trade off I've noticed in cars too.

The net result is better imaging, but it comes with some costs.
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Old 03-03-2014   #48
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
I'm using dual amplifiers and a miniDSP for my home audio system. Everything is high-end with Scan Speak Illumination towers, high current class A amps. Still, adding a DSP improved the system A LOT. I use lots of EQ below 120Hz to fix the room response, active crossovers are really nice to have, especially when you wanna use 4th order filters, passives tend to get complicated quickly.
Building custom speakers?

That's really hard to do both from driver location, materials, enclosure size/tuning and crossover design.

Better to stick with proven designs.

Passives don't get love on the car audio side, but they are unbeatable in home audio for coherence if done right.
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Old 03-03-2014   #49
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
Cajunner, I know many home systems that sound good without DSP. There's really no need for it, and treating a room is not like building a studio. It can be done without spending a fortune and/or remodeling the entire room. Also, if I couldn't place speakers in a living room where I wanted I have bigger problems!

And the problem with DSP from a technical level is that it takes away some dynamics.

That's a trade off I've noticed in cars too.

The net result is better imaging, but it comes with some costs.
accounting for first reflections, going too "dead" or too "live," floor bounce issues, you are dealing with stage depth, projector screen permeability, 2 channel vs. 7 channel, these are sort of jury-rigged attempts at making an acoustical space, into an acoustical scene.

you want to have hard floors, you want to have Sonex tile ceilings, you want to have bass traps inconspicuously occupy each corner of your room?

DSP is not a panacea but it is a useful tool that provides for corrections in home or car, and it is just our ability to utilize various degrees of correction, that provides or prevents the nirvana completion...

nirvana completion, good band name?


haha...
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Old 03-03-2014   #50
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FG79 View Post
Building custom speakers?

That's really hard to do both from driver location, materials, enclosure size/tuning and crossover design.

Better to stick with proven designs.

Passives don't get love on the car audio side, but they are unbeatable in home audio for coherence if done right.
I'm no amateur when it comes to speaker design. They have carefully designed in LEAP and fine tuned to the location and room to yield the flattest response. Baffle step and diffraction have also been considered. Passives just doesn't have the flexibility of an active filter. A passive in a 3-way can quickly get both advanced and expensive. The room modes cannot simply be fixed with passives in any practical manner. 'Dynamics' can sometimes refer to heavy deviation in frequency response, I know some EMMA judges call an un-EQed response 'dynamic'. Me myself does not like that at all. I don't want that 'live' sound.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.

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