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Old 03-04-2014   #51
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

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Originally Posted by Hanatsu View Post
I'm no amateur when it comes to speaker design. They have carefully designed in LEAP and fine tuned to the location and room to yield the flattest response. Baffle step and diffraction have also been considered. Passives just doesn't have the flexibility of an active filter. A passive in a 3-way can quickly get both advanced and expensive. The room modes cannot simply be fixed with passives in any practical manner. 'Dynamics' can sometimes refer to heavy deviation in frequency response, I know some EMMA judges call an un-EQed response 'dynamic'. Me myself does not like that at all. I don't want that 'live' sound.

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The other thing that sucks about passives is when you roach a driver and find out that it has been discontinued. Now you get to rebuild your passive crossovers from scratch because the only driver that fits in your location has TS parameters that are WAY off from the one that died an early death.

Active crossovers make the replacement process WAY easier. Throw in DSP and you will wonder why you agonized over building custom passives in the first place. I'm starting to find that the older I get, the less patience I have to deal with problems in my hobbies... Hobbies are supposed to be fun and not piss me off more than the things that piss me off at work!

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Old 03-04-2014   #52
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

I think sq is very subjective and speaks directly to how much exposure you have. A couple of summers ago a local shop brought in a few company demo cars and a few cars that had one some sq shows. Certain aspects of the cars impressed me, but others I didnt think were that great. I loved the placement and image, but they all seemed flat sounding to me with huge dynamics between musical passages.

Again, I only know what I know and certainly havent been trained to listen to what others were listening for. I remember guys raving about one car and when I sat in it, I kinda had the yeah ok feeling. Dont get me wrong, it sounded better than any car I had, but it wasnt night and day. The high end and mids all sounded muted or flat to me. The thing that stood out was the midbass. It had an attack quality that I have never had, but everything else was just ok to me. At 39 years old, what I like now is way different than when I was 21 but I have also heard on a few occasions what others consider sq and sorta didnt like the sound. On the flip side, I know the owners of a sq car would sit in my car and have their skin crawl.
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Old 03-04-2014   #53
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

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Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
The other thing that sucks about passives is when you roach a driver and find out that it has been discontinued. Now you get to rebuild your passive crossovers from scratch because the only driver that fits in your location has TS parameters that are WAY off from the one that died an early death.

Active crossovers make the replacement process WAY easier. Throw in DSP and you will wonder why you agonized over building custom passives in the first place. I'm starting to find that the older I get, the less patience I have to deal with problems in my hobbies... Hobbies are supposed to be fun and not piss me off more than the things that piss me off at work!
Agree... active filters are so much better really. With an ordinary surround amplifier you can cross different speakers active pretty easy. It took me a whole day getting the damn passives right. I'll never do that again. Waste of time when you got a DSP.

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Old 03-04-2014   #54
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

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Originally Posted by Jroo View Post
I think sq is very subjective and speaks directly to how much exposure you have. A couple of summers ago a local shop brought in a few company demo cars and a few cars that had one some sq shows. Certain aspects of the cars impressed me, but others I didnt think were that great. I loved the placement and image, but they all seemed flat sounding to me with huge dynamics between musical passages.

Again, I only know what I know and certainly havent been trained to listen to what others were listening for. I remember guys raving about one car and when I sat in it, I kinda had the yeah ok feeling. Dont get me wrong, it sounded better than any car I had, but it wasnt night and day. The high end and mids all sounded muted or flat to me. The thing that stood out was the midbass. It had an attack quality that I have never had, but everything else was just ok to me. At 39 years old, what I like now is way different than when I was 21 but I have also heard on a few occasions what others consider sq and sorta didnt like the sound. On the flip side, I know the owners of a sq car would sit in my car and have their skin crawl.
Some of the SQ cars that I've heard sounded horrific. They used zero EQ and went on and on how dynamic their system sounded lol. I'm sure there were 10dB +/- variations in the response. When he heard mine, he went completely - uuuh WTF? It's so dead and lifeless and whatever and I said no, it's how it's supposed to sound, it's natural. His system sounded like standing 10 feet away from a pro speaker on a rock concert and some of people really loved that sound. I really can't stand it. I want smooth natural sounding systems with nothing that stands out or jumps at me, rather a little laid back, than too "forward".

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Old 03-04-2014   #55
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDT FAN View Post
Speaking of golden ear, check this test out. I am about halfway through the golden ear level and I am struggling with the same thing you are. I went into it without training first, though. I need to take a few minutes to play with the training before I try it again.

An Audiophile Workout: Philips Golden Ears Training | InnerFidelity
I took a brief look on Philips site. It is basic, but worth a casual visit. https://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/introduction.html

By comparison, the Harman "How to Listen" software is a download and is much more comprehensive in scope and detail, with slightly different, more exacting definitions intended for serious critical listening in scientific research trials. Input sample files, although limited in number, are .wav and high quality. The output has some adjustment capability as well making it more useful, and challenging depending on settings used.

Last edited by Schramm; 03-04-2014 at 11:36 PM..
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Old 03-28-2014   #56
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

A quick note on Andy's "wow" sound. It certainly works, since I got five "wows" out of five different people showing off my sound system in the last week. The MS8 is doing all the heavy lifting too, since this is my first real car system and I know the install is crap... Hope to correct some of it over the summer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by file audio View Post
SO what are the must do things to get sq.? turn off head unit loudness function ,, whats more?,,, Im trying to get quality but I WANT TO learn new things about sq.
The best way to learn about SQ is to first experiance it. Find someone with a really good set of headphones or a good home or car system and listen, really listen to it.

The loudness function isn't actually a bad thing when used correctly. The freqency responce of our ears change with volume. At lower listening levels a well done loudness function corrects for that.
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Old 05-13-2014   #57
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

I've been spending hours in my car using head phones to tune my system. If you don't know what you are missing, you can't correct your systems flaws. Even if it will never sound as good as my head phones.
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Old 05-14-2014   #58
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

bad advice..what constitutes good system?

go listen to LIVE music and then a recording of said performance..
fully duty is to capture and reproduce the original event

then compare
or have the privileged of being in the studio of the engineer that mixes down the final track so you can listen to it on HIS system and compare to the ORIGINAL!

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Old 05-14-2014   #59
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

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Originally Posted by minbari View Post
that is a silly statement. for an environment like a car where you are off-set to one side. the cabin is less than ideal. reflections. speakers are not in ideal enclosures. speakers are not in front of you, but instead to the side.

doesnt matter how good you are, a DSP can correct for a lot of stuff install cant.
I think you are too kind. silly statement? read his previous post, he has golden ears obviously. he can distinguish Steinway from Baldwin and remo from ludwig on the spot. he must be able to set time alignment without DSP as well. I`d like to know that secret.

It seems like most people don't care to actually understand reality.
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Old 05-14-2014   #60
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

My experience says that there is a huge difference between DSP and what they could do for you. Tried by myself both in the car and at home (SNELL EIII loudspeakers).

Do not forget that each equalization changes phase to certain extend. EQ by no means should be used struggling with missing sound level at some frequences. By doing this you simply add some new information which could be hardly called "musical". It was not the idea of a composer or a musician . Preferably - only limiting peaks.

Sharing my last achievements it is worth mentioning the sound corrector from Acoustic Power Lab.
If you are SQ entusiast, you might be interested in its devices like APL1. It has a minimalistic design with no un-necessary smart features like BT, smartfone app, etc. But it has everything you need for SQ sound producing. Custom target curves with not less then 4096 (!) FIR filters - separately for each channel. It was used i the champion car at EMMA Eurofinals (21-23 March, 2014, Zalzburg) - two first places in Sound Quality and Multimedia Expert classes.

Take a look also on software for quick calculation of time delay. It could be downloaded free as a demo version. Amazing 3D pictures, which are easy to use. The whole process of TA alignment takes just minutes. I was impressed with the results (compared f.ex. with Imprint, PXA-100).

I have a passive front, but do not suffer more from wrong time delay and unbalanced sound. It was my best investment in the car audio parallel to CD changer (model Alpine CHA-624 with optical out). it is nothing to compare with the sound I used to hear from built-in CD player from Alpine one of the top-models from 2013. SQ taste is different from people to people, but this unit (despite its age) shocked me. It produces simply unlimited sound with a great dynamic range, ocean of details and deep-deep bass (which pressed me to reinforce the front doors). My point is not to forget the sound source when talking about SQ. Hope my info could be usefull.

Lol. Glad to share with such audience my positive impressions with SQ improvements in my car, as my wife does not understand me ...

Last edited by Alextaastrup; 05-14-2014 at 05:58 PM..
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Old 05-15-2014   #61
 
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Wow there is so much good stuff in this thread. I don't have space to quote it all but special mention to
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjhabit View Post
it affirms that youth is wasted on the young
that had me stitches.
Good to see so many people realise that the only opinion that finally matters is your own. That's not to deride other peoples opinion and professional reviewers who all help us find what we like.
One piece of the science I don't think the thread covers was shown by a friend. He would let you play your favourite pieces of music through his ATC speakers and let you adust the volume until is was slightly loud but still very comfortable. He would then speak to you and you couldn't hear him, you spoke back and could hardly hear yourself. Apparantly much of what we percieve as loudness is distortion. After that demo I am a believer.
Finally one thing that drives (oops) us to design/build/install is like sex. We know there are professionals who can do it better than ourselves but we get so much more pleasure when we do it.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #62
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
My experiiences in doing demonstration of great sounding audio for lots of different people--experienced critical listeners and neophytes is that there is a certain sound that gets a "Wow, that's awesome" from nearly everyone. Some deviations from that certain sound are more objectionable than others and sometimes people prefer some of the deviations. More or less bass is one of them. More or less high frequency is another. However, the overall shape of the response, has to be maintained within some limits in order to get the "wow". I've posted that response here many times.

My method in arriving at this wasn't the same kind of science that Sean does--it wasn't a controlled experiment, it's been 30 years of building systems and products and listening carefully to what people say. In my experience, the difference between a "trained" and "untrained" listener has nothing to do with hearing acuity or even an understanding of system building, woofers, tweeters, crossovers, equalization or what have you. The "training" is in being able to explain to the person doing the survey WHAT you don't like. It's the job of the salesperson or installer to be the translator and a good one listens to what you mean and not necessarily what you say.

Years ago when I was an installer, we had a customer who came in for a pretty good system. I think we installed a couple of amplifiers, a sub and 4 speakers. He loved it. He left. A week later he came back and said it wasn't loud enough. We added amplifiers and another sub. He loved it again. He came back a week later and said, "It still isn't loud enough". We doubled the speakers in the front, doubled the power again, added two more subs. He loved it a third time. He came back a week later and said, it's better but still not quite loud enough. We were out of space in the car to add more and the thing was ridiculously loud.

My boss (really smart guy who is now no longer in the industry because he teaches music at a local university) went out to the the car and asked the guy to play something at the level he usually listens. The volume control was 1/4 of the way up. Normal listening level. Hmmm...WTF? I go out to the car and jump in the back seat. My boss asks the guy to play a song that he thinks is a good example of what's missing. He puts on some vocal track and says, "See, whe she sings that note, it isn't loud enough and when the bass player plays that part of the music, it isn't loud enough."

We took out half the power in the car and traded in the amplifiers for a pair of Audio Control EQTs and spent the rest the day in the car with an RTA. The next day, the guy came to pick up the car, listened and said, "That's exactly what I wanted".

This taught me to listen MUCH more carefully to what people MEAN and to do some additional investigation when necessary. The disconnect was that the customer's ability to articulate his desires using words we understood wasn't well developed--he didn't speak audiophile--but it had nothing to do with his ears. My job as a product manager is to TRANSLATE, which means I have to be the expert. The job of a salesman or an installer is also to TRANSLATE.

What Sean does is another kind of translation. He performs carefully controlled experiments in order to be able to express the results in another language--the language of science, which has its own rules and constraints--the most important being repeatability. Sometimes that means limiting the words people use to describe the experience and for that, training is required. You can read about the listener training program at Harman online. I don't know where it is, but just Google "Harman Listener Training".
That was a great post, where are you Andy?

Horny Froggy...
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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

Everyone has own inner eorld

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Default Re: SQ really is subjective.

When two innner worlds meet each other, it is not strange that people do not understand each other. Strsnge when they do.

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