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SQ really is subjective.

19K views 78 replies 45 participants last post by  AyOne 
#1 ·
I think just like all the hifi nonsense like line conditioners, speaker wire elevators, and green marker on CD rims can't stand up to real double blind tests, it seems musical instruments suffer from the same biases.

Double-Blind Violin Test: Can You Pick The Strad? : Deceptive Cadence : NPR

I picked the right one but have to say it sounded close but I remember hearing recordings of Stradivarii violin solos compared to other ones and distinctly remember that they have more muted lows so to me I could tell. But only just so.
 
#58 ·
bad advice..what constitutes good system?

go listen to LIVE music and then a recording of said performance..
fully duty is to capture and reproduce the original event

then compare
or have the privileged of being in the studio of the engineer that mixes down the final track so you can listen to it on HIS system and compare to the ORIGINAL!
 
#60 · (Edited)
My experience says that there is a huge difference between DSP and what they could do for you. Tried by myself both in the car and at home (SNELL EIII loudspeakers).

Do not forget that each equalization changes phase to certain extend. EQ by no means should be used struggling with missing sound level at some frequences. By doing this you simply add some new information which could be hardly called "musical". It was not the idea of a composer or a musician :). Preferably - only limiting peaks.

Sharing my last achievements it is worth mentioning the sound corrector from Acoustic Power Lab.
If you are SQ entusiast, you might be interested in its devices like APL1. It has a minimalistic design with no un-necessary smart features like BT, smartfone app, etc. But it has everything you need for SQ sound producing. Custom target curves with not less then 4096 (!) FIR filters - separately for each channel. It was used i the champion car at EMMA Eurofinals (21-23 March, 2014, Zalzburg) - two first places in Sound Quality and Multimedia Expert classes.

Take a look also on software for quick calculation of time delay. It could be downloaded free as a demo version. Amazing 3D pictures, which are easy to use. The whole process of TA alignment takes just minutes. I was impressed with the results (compared f.ex. with Imprint, PXA-100).

I have a passive front, but do not suffer more from wrong time delay and unbalanced sound. It was my best investment in the car audio parallel to CD changer (model Alpine CHA-624 with optical out). it is nothing to compare with the sound I used to hear from built-in CD player from Alpine one of the top-models from 2013. SQ taste is different from people to people, but this unit (despite its age) shocked me. It produces simply unlimited sound with a great dynamic range, ocean of details and deep-deep bass (which pressed me to reinforce the front doors). My point is not to forget the sound source when talking about SQ. Hope my info could be usefull.

Lol. Glad to share with such audience my positive impressions with SQ improvements in my car, as my wife does not understand me ... :)
 
#64 ·
When two innner worlds meet each other, it is not strange that people do not understand each other. Strsnge when they do.

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#66 ·
You are right . We listen subjective. We all are only subjects in this world. Do you really think everybody like your curves?

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#67 ·
It's not subjective in the sense there is a guideline. It is subjective in the sense of your reference.
 
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#68 ·
I look at it like this....you'll never be able to satisfy everyone. That goes for judges at events as well.

If you're competing, then by all means....have a preset for what the "judges like" so u can score well.

If you AREN'T competing, set your system up so it sounds good to YOU. You're the one who has to drive around listening to it.

No one else's opinion matters :)


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#70 ·
I agree Mr. Green. When I competed I had a tune specifically for the Iasca cd. I never used that tune while I actually drove the car. This is why I decided to quit the competition scene. It made no sense for me to pay somebody money to judge what they did and didn't like about my stereo. I built the system for myself to enjoy. I'm not in the industry, so there was no benefit to me showcasing any product or install. I noticed most competitors are part of a team or they represent a store or brand. This is good for them as there is potential of recognition and monetary gain. I have heard some of the "best" cars in the country at competitions and to be honest, I never stepped out of any vehicle blown away. I believe some of these cars would sound amazing to me with a different "tune." Just my opinion, and if you want to compete, go for it!
 
#72 ·
When everyone's ears and brain are wired alike and physically identical then I will say SQ isn't subjective.
Of course that day will never come. Too much variance and diversity in how we are genetically different. Example: some people have detached (free) ear lobs, some do not. While that's only a cosmetic detail and not immediately relevant to car audio, you can see my point.
 
#73 ·
Never ever evaluate equipment on music you love, it seems counter intuitive but any piece of crap playing music you love will sounds music to your ears. Unless of course it`s irreversible subpar POS.
 
#74 ·
Sound Quality is more like a gauge. It shouldn't be used in the context it's used in. Enthusiast s want better than cheap oem quality. Regardless of price, therefore we/they are improving sound quality. I think the term HiFi/audiophile quality should be used in the context we use when we say SQ build. Other than SPL competition builds everything is a SQ build. Like someone saying or building a fast car. Is 500 rwhp fast or is 750 rwhp fast, they are both fast. It's not that subjective, it's fast. One is faster than the other yes.

Just like paint colors or anything else. Everyone has different tastes. Some people aren't sensitive to music. All they really hear is distortion or no distortion. My ex roommate was about 50, basically everything sounded the same to him, nothing was an improvement. Hearing test showed he had lost a good amount of hearing. My hearing tests last year showed I'm good at 35 years of age still and I have sensitive hearing. My old best friend as a teenager was deaf in his left ear. His stereo required a huge amount of treble. That loud ssss, tttttt horn type treble. Probably because his brain only hearing half of what we hear was like us turning treble down all the way in comparison. It sounded good to him but to us it was tiring, ear piercing horrendous treble. Women tend to hear better than men at higher frequencies. One guy might like a overly bright Focal while someone else might love a warm, calm speaker and prefer the one vs the other. To add, high performance to a person is perceived as the best they have seen or heard personally. If someone has never heard speakers that cost more than $200 than they don't know what a $5K Morel set should sound like. My work buddy was all pumped about his new system. I tried to help him. He bought a Boss audio head unit, cerwin Vega $80 components and cerwin Vega cheap compared axials for the rear. Stereo was set even on all speakers. He said it sounds amazing, one of the best car stereos he's ever heard. So I demoed this system. It sounded like dried **** on a good day and wet steamy **** on a great day. It was horrendous. Is this subjective or did it really sound like hell. He said he wasn't going to amp the components because that's just more power and a amp won't improve sound. He said he wasnt going to add a subwoofer because he doesn't listen to Rap. To top it off I still kept trying to advise and help the guy while being nice. He than said he sound deadened the whole car. I knew what that was gonna end up being. I said so you added CLD, closed cell foam, mass loaded vinyl and sealed off all holes in the door and made sure the 6.5s we're mounted on a baffle and sealed properly? He said no I used Dynamat because it's the best in 100% coverage and didn't need the other stuff. He's 21 and if it was raining outside he would argue with you about it that his phone said it wasnt. Those are just examples of the average guy. Usually wrong about everything in car audio.
 
#75 ·
Sq is not subjective. It doesnt truly exist.
We talk about imaging and stagining and trying to recreate a live , life like sound.
What we are really trying to recreate is the studio sound. The sound engineers may or may not try to recreate live sound. Thats up to them and their creativity.
Its also very genre based.
If you want to be happy with your system you really have to have some understanding of the music you listen to and how it was produced.
Something as simple as how loud you play the music affects its realism.
Take an acoutic soloist/vocalist in a small bar and compare that to a full blown rock concert.
The soloist will dictate a completely different volume setting than the rock show.
A simple twist of the volume knob has a massive affect on musics realism depending on what you are listening to.

Some where along the line we also have to take into account the producers intent and musical choices. As producers we know that speakers dont like to play more than a couple sounds in different frequncy ranges at the same time. Any more and you will wind up with a muddy jumbled up mix. In real life our ears can easily hear all the small details of several instruments at the same time. Speakers just cant compare. It takes some fantastic creativity to make a truly clean mix. The issue is to get that clean mix trade off must be made. Each of these trade offs is a deviation from the live sound. Giving the vocalist a little more top end to cut through a mix. Adding compression to drums. Cutting the kick drum at certian frequencies while boosting others to make room for the bass to sit in the mix. You have to give something to get something.
Lets look at a drum set as an example.
Producers like to pan the drums most of the way across our imagined stage. Sometimes all the way.
Say your 40ft away from a drumset in a venue. You will hear the sounds from what seems like a single location.
Thats a small venue. Take a larger venue where the drums are mic'd and you will hear the sounds from where ever the sound engineer feels like putting them. Its completely up to him where to pan each piece in the drum kit.
In the end we are just hearing the choices the producer made when listening to recorded music.
You guys know everyone hears a little different, likes different music and have your own ideas of what does and doesnt sound good. The people making the music are the same way.
Take a perfectly produced (remember no such thing) jazz ensemble and compare that to rock or worst yet electronic music where the sky is the limit for creativity and the end results will be light years apart.
The most we can hope for is a system capable of accuratly reproducing what is in the recording. But we cant. We can make it sound good, but there is no way in hell of reproducing what the producer hears in their studio.
So buy what you like, tune it how you see fit and make it sound good to YOU because i assure you thats exactly what producers and artist do.
Ive heard it said their is a correct , and that correct is life like. Listening to what?
The only music that will sound life like is music that was intended to sound life like from an extremely talented producer.
I could go into hundreds of pages of details on production choices, tools, the reasons for doing things to get a desired result, equipment and so on. None of that changes the fact we are in tiny cars, amd those cars will NEVER be capable of recreating the mix as it was heard where it was made. Its impossible as we have not heard their rooms. Even if we had and immitated it our tune would make it sound completely different from the next producers.
Thankfully as humans music moves us. It doesnt have to be perfect for us to enjoy it. I have a cheap pair 8" powered studio monitors in my living room hooked to my tv and xbox. I think they cost maybe $300. I enjoy music on them just as much as my almost $15,000 car system.
The car is more detailed and accurate but i enjoy the open room sound more. To end all this its all up to the end user to determine what they like. I wouldnt call that sq at all but personal preference.
Theres just too damn much music where the producer had absolutely zero intentions of making it sound "real".
In fact music that was produced to sound real or live is a small portion of music i believe.
We havent even entered the music politics arena. A certian "sound" gets popular and sells well and all of a sudden everything coming out sounds the same, and it aint a live sound. The loudness wars are a perfect example.
So unless youre competing do what sounds good to you and be thankful that not all music sounds the same. How boring would that be.
 
#76 · (Edited)
As far as competing is concerned, about two years ago I went to my first SQ competition. I thought my system sounded amazing back then and was shocked to get such a low score. Looking back, I had untamed peaks and unfocused imaging, phasing issues, and myriad of other issues.

My impressions of the first couple of SQ systems were that they were dull and boring. They left me unimpressed and wanting to listen to my non-EQed untamed system. I was in the music and the instruments were all around me as I was enveloped in sound.

Over time, I learned that the purpose of a SQ system was NOT to hear the music as if I were seated among the band members, or the instruments, but rather seated in front of musicians playing in front of me. It took me a long time to get use to listening to music that way as I had not done that all my life up to that point and I'm almost 50.

In the 1970's Producers and sound engineers spent countless hours in the studio tweaking music to get it to sound "just right". Some of the best music and mixing came out of that era. I listen to a lot of 70's music on my system.

Today, it seems as if very little effort is put into creating great sound because there is not a huge demand for it. Most of the youth listen to music on ear buds.

I've purchased modern music and the way it's produced is different. Not a whole hell of a lot of stereo separation.

Norah Jones who's "Come away with me" album was recorded with upmost care and concern for Sound Quality and recorded with a Crystal Clear playback. That album is still used today to demo high end systems because of the paramount of sound quality.

I bought a new album from Norah Jones "Day Breaks". WTF happened? The microphone and recording equipment was so sub par it was almost laughable. I could make a better sounding recording with my I-Phone. What gives?

What pisses me off even more, is the fact that Norah was one of the artists ( like Dave Matthews ) standing behind Neil Young's Pono Music " Bringing sound quality back to music " movement.

My question is did she loose her passion, and now just cares about the money? Does she not have a reference system that she can demo her latest albums before they go out for production? Does she not even worry about SQ anymore and just let her staff take care of that stuff?

I guess the positive side is that there is still recordings available today that one can seek out, hold on and appreciate. Nothing brings a smile to my face more than when I pop in a CD and notice the quality.

I have found out that there are many types of recordings that I enjoy listening to, and here are some of my favorites:

A recording that features sound stage depth.
A recording that features sound stage width.
A recording that has amazing cool imaging and panning.
A recording that features immersive sound.
A recording that has a foot tapping beat.
A recording that has so many complicated sounds going on, but it still sounds good.

A recording that was simply done with just 3 or 4 instruments, with minimal processing.

What I enjoy most is when I'm alone and in my bubble of sound and there is nothing to distract me and I can just enjoy quality music.

For me investing in a sound quality system is an investment that brings forth pleasure for many, many years. Hell, I'm still using the mid-range drivers in today's system that I purchased in the early 1990's.
 
#78 ·
I have never been a fan of Michael Jackson, but the wonders of streaming allowed me to listen to Billy Jean for free on my home system. Now I know why everyone was always talking about the song back in the day. The producer really used the whole stage.

Modern electronic music doesn't use the whole stage. I like a lot of Lyle Lovette because of his accoutical and his large band. He uses the whole stage.

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