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Old 03-23-2011   #101
 
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
Can it actually "condition" or "smooth" the power? Can the fast discharge translate to better dynamics?
Yes it can be used as a Power conditioner. Yes it can help dynamics because the amps will get a more consistent Power delivery. The amount that it helps depends on the power supply in the amp.
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Old 03-24-2011   #102
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

Yes, on some older amps with outdated Power supplies or old amps with failing parts it can help give them constant Power etc etc etc. But tbh, you're better off spending some money to either refurbish, modify, or replace the amp than to try and fix it with a capacitor
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Old 03-24-2011   #103
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

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Originally Posted by Sarthos View Post
Yes, on some older amps with outdated Power supplies or old amps with failing parts it can help give them constant Power etc etc etc. But tbh, you're better off spending some money to either refurbish, modify, or replace the amp than to try and fix it with a capacitor
What about a MB Quart DSC4125? Sundown SAZ-1500D?

Think the extra capacitance can benefit them a bit? What about for a MS-8?

I know specifics are tough. I just want to know your personal opinion, that's all.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 03-24-2011   #104
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

I have used capacitors in many installs where the benefits were noticeable. You are going to see people on this site argue all day for and against them calling them a band aid or useless. I would say that if you have it try it for yourself and let everyone on this thread know your results.

My experience is that it does "Condition" because I have seen them remove system noise and alternator whine. I have also seen them do a great job with stopping or minimizing voltage drops on music that is very dynamic or with difficult passages.

I personally feel that they have their place, but don't expect any magic fixes if your system has other major Power supply issues.

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Old 03-24-2011   #105
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

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Originally Posted by AudioBob View Post
I have used capacitors in many installs where the benefits were noticeable. You are going to see people on this site argue all day for and against them calling them a band aid or useless. I would say that if you have it try it for yourself and let everyone on this thread know your results.

My experience is that it does "Condition" because I have seen them remove system noise and alternator whine. I have also seen them do a great job with stopping or minimizing voltage drops on music that is very dynamic or with difficult passages.

I personally feel that they have their place, but don't expect any magic fixes if your system has other major Power supply issues.
Sounds like a terrific idea. I will be sure to contribute my personal experience.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 03-24-2011   #106
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

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Originally Posted by bd5034 View Post
What about a MB Quart DSC4125? Sundown SAZ-1500D?

Think the extra capacitance can benefit them a bit? What about for a MS-8?

I know specifics are tough. I just want to know your personal opinion, that's all.
Never used either of those amps. Never actually seen one in person either. I have no idea how adding extra capacitance can help an MS-8 though.
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Old 03-25-2011   #107
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

I'll let you guys know my own results.

I haven't heard the perfect stereo yet so I'll keep searching!
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Old 04-25-2011   #108
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

The things is Why spend $300+ on a new/used high output alt and $250+ on a good low esr battery when a $150 cap would do the job?

I say if you have a modest system. At least do a big 2 (battery to chassis and engine to battery wires). Then if your still exp. a drop in voltage then install a cap 2fd or so just to smooth out that small voltage dip. If it fixes your issue +thumbs up and you just saved yourself $400+

Yes the caps takes and store power. That's the running argument I see a lot. However a second battery stores Power which is another load on the alt. hmmm.

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Old 04-25-2011   #109
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

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Originally Posted by starboy869 View Post
However a second battery stores Power which is another load on the alt. hmmm.
S-Boy is correct
This statement always cracks me up. There is absolutely no difference between adding a battery or using a single oversized batt. Think about it.

A larger fuel tank, requires a larger filler nozzle?

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Old 05-22-2011   #110
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

depends on the amps supply circuit.. most unregulated amps may/can benefit from a cap.. most regulated amps seems to do better with just making sure they get the voltage form the bat.. just a general observation but if you think about it.. unregulated amps have not the Power filtering reserves that a regulated amp does so the caps does help!

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Old 05-22-2011   #111
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

Yep. Think of it as "pay me now" or "pay me later". The capacitor by nature resists a change in voltge, hence its use in controlling voltage ripple. When a cap discharges the energy it's stored, for example during a music crescendo, it has to draw upon the alternator during "quiet time" to re-charge ("pay me later"). One would think a really large cap would have a better benefit for non-regulated amplifiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitaF View Post
S-Boy is correct
This statement always cracks me up. There is absolutely no difference between adding a battery or using a single oversized batt. Think about it.

A larger fuel tank, requires a larger filler nozzle?

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Old 05-31-2011   #112
 
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

This is why capacitors are used.
YouTube - ‪Do Capacitors Do Anything - The Truth About Car audio Capacitors‬‏
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Old 06-01-2011   #113
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

real simple.. shitty switching noise from a class D amp..
a good amp would have adequate on board filtering caps/ and or shielding.

DUH the cap is nuthing more that a filter...
didn't say anything about stiffening the Power supply!


BTW if you go to DIY audio and check there is a thread discussing why all the home manufacturers have basically abandoned digitial amps. cost...
that's right to make a good digital amp the design and manufacturing cost are much greater than a decent a/b amp.


so basically the cap is nothing more that a crutch for a poorly designed class D switching amp!

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Old 06-01-2011   #114
 
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

The amp didn't have to be class D to induce noise into the signal...it's just easier esp with a crappy amp. If he tried that with the JL HD series or a ZED amp, I bet his results would be a lot less extreme.
Added capacitance is never a bad thing and Car amps have internal space constraints.
Stiffening means removing noise/cleaning up Power supply line. Voltage drop is a form of noise.

Really? So home audio is leaving class D but Car audio is embracing it. I have to find that thread, sounds like a good read.
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Old 06-19-2011   #115
 
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

I was told by a friend that a cap cannot replace a good battery. I will be running 2 batteries in parallel on my vw bus.
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Old 06-20-2011   #116
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

FWIW, I am almost 50 years old and have been into Car audio since I was 16.I have been through more systems than anyone I know and yet I still find I learn new things every day.
I could never understand why anyone would waste that kind of money on a cap when they could go to Sears and buy a die hard 900cca battery with thousands of times the Power for less money.There is a formula to convert joules to watts(I googled it a long time ago)and 1 farad at 12volts is = to about 70 watts.Seemed like a no brainer to me.

Anyway,now I have a 01 blazer with a factory alt and a newer 850amp battery,2ga Power Wire going to 2 mac mc431m and a jl 500/1 running 5way active and it sounded awesome but i had a massive voltage drop when cranking and I knew this would happen.I know better than to drive around trying to be the loudest moron on the block.
I like to listen to music loud but only for short durations like 1 song then turn it down to give my alt a break.
I was about to add an extra battery because I know my amps would sound better and my headlights dimmed soooo bad people had to be laughing, when I came across a great deal on some rockford 1 farad caps.I got 5 of them for 100 bucks nib and intended on reselling them for a profit.One night driving around with my lights dimming so bad I looked like a strobe light on wheels I decided to try one since it was dark and I thought I could do an A/B comparison.
A couple feet of 4ga wire,some ring terminals and a half hour later I later I took of up the road.I couldnt tell much of a difference until I cranked it to the point that the power guard led's started to flash on the macs and WOW major improvement.Every thing sounded cleaner,more detail in the mids and highs,bass was much tighter.
However it didnt do crap for my headlights,nada,zip,zero.
This is not just my opinion,every person who herd my system before noticed it to.I get someone in it and say listen to this and they would say wow what did you do.
Granted this system was starved for energy,and I think any upgrade would have been audible but that 1 cap made a believer out of me.
Also,these are all regulated amplifiers of the highest quality so I am sure that lesser amps would benefit even more.
Caps did not fix my problem nor will they fix any power starved system but they can help.Now I need that extra battery and an alternator out of a wrecker.
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Old 06-22-2011   #117
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

bet if you fixed the rest the cap would not have made an audible difference

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Old 06-22-2011   #118
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

Actually a cap can be a Power filter..... Which makes more sense most of the time....

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Old 06-23-2011   #119
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

You could be right.
I was in the process of changing the system around when i noticed this thread so Im going to find out if the caps will make an improvement this time around also.
I just bought another battery and some 1/0 gauge wire, Im changing out the 500/1 for an mtx 92001 and adding another 12.
I just need to pick up an audio control dsx and find the time to finish it,so it will be a few weeks.
I also picked up an assortment of buss bars for the caps,so I can experiment with how many it takes to makes an improvement and what is the practical limit.
Im still thinking on which way to go with alternator problem.But thats another story.
Like I said before,that 1 cap made such a big difference in SQ at higher volumes Im sure it will help this time around also.If it doesnt I will eat crow and stick with my extra battery theory.
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Old 06-25-2011   #120
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

add up you current draw for you amps.. then add that to the what it takes to run you vehicle with lights and a/c and fans and cooling fans.. if your alternator does not put out 70% of that your not going to fix anything with a cap.. ah I won't divulge the secret to figuring out how much ampacity battery you need and Low esr batteries are nto the cure.. I've seen super overpriced low esr batts have a shiyty current discharge curve.

It's simply how fast can your electrical system recover. or supply.. that is two totally separate issues but both have to be addressed at once. A cap is simply a crutch or at best a noise filter..

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Old 06-26-2011   #121
 
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

hmmm good info here. Thanks all.

Most of the discussion seems to revolve around quantity, I'm curious on the quality aspect. My current Car has solid clean power, but I've dealt with some nastiness before.

In a lower powered system (say under 500 rms total) where Power consumption isn't an issue and voltage dips are not notable (without meter); Would adding a (quality) cap be beneficial in terms of sq? I realize this is a huge generalization, but just as a starting point...
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Old 08-16-2011   #122
 
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

Quote:
Originally Posted by FartinInTheTub View Post
I am a UNION electrician and proud of it. trained in not only AC but DC.. as well as complex motor controls, relays, etc,... I know what i'm doing. i don't need to defend what I know to 24 and 25 year old kids. I was trying to be civil and polite to you by simply responding. try doing the same.

ps.. I also have a degree in electrical engineering from The university of California, Berkeley but I chose to work in the field since sitting behind a desk doing CAD drawings bores the shit out of me. I am also an Electrical contractor. thanks again for your opinions... I will consider them when doing my install.
What I really hate is when an electrician installs his deck with Wire nuts. And then when the 40 year old electrician teaches his son, the 20 year old then starts installing deck with Wire nuts. Then when you explain to the son why its wrong, your crazy cause his dads been an electrician for 20 years







Dont hate on me. this is my first post. just had to say it. lol

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Old 08-16-2011   #123
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

Wire nuts only work on solid copper, thats why they use them for home/commercial. But when it comes to multi-fine strands like Car audio (which requires more current) you pretty much have to hand twist add a little solder and some shrink tubing for a real good connection & protection. Ofcourse they sell couplers but even those fail sometimes, where solder pretty much helds pretty well.

But I have seen some ghetto installs with Wire nuts, and I just keep my mouth shut and let them learn the hard way once that puppy falls off and creates a short or even a fire is a well lesson thought.

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Old 08-20-2011   #124
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

Couple of things, Andy Wehmeyer said that the Big 3 was a waste of time and money - don't remember the exact reason he gave but it's on DIYMA...
^ I dunno, I did it anyway coz I have time to waste and money to spare lol - did not notice any improvement to be honest - can't hurt to do it though

I also do not believe in Cap to make up for the lack of Power however I do believe that they can filter out noise and solve a lot of noise related problems...

I upgraded my alt, for me it's actually the best bang for the buck. During my time off from work, I took out my alt and sent it to have it upgraded. Used to be 90A max and now it's 110A @ idle to 160A max. One of the best $220 I spent on my audio.
In 3 years, I killed 2 of the biggest yellow top Optima coz my alt couldn't recharge my rear batteries fast enough.

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Who knows, some might understand now
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Old 12-15-2011   #125
 
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Default Re: Capacitor Myth

This is like watching politicians argue. Saying repeat a voltage drop test with a sine wave is inane. We do not listen to sine waves, we listen to dynamic music and many of us have small systems with MAYBE a PEAK draw at or slightly above our alts available output or even close, hell lets say that draw of musical peak, lights, efi, blower motor, etc is right at our alts peak. Just because the alt CAN deliver xx current, does not mean it can do it NOW. There is a slight delay with the regulator. The battery absorbs some of this, but it still has some delay. Dont believe me? Turn on your lights, watch them and your running voltage when a cooling fan or blower motor on high is switched on, you will see a momentary voltage drop that quickly returns to normal. Does this mean the charging system is insufficient? nope. Just because we replace the fan with music, does not mean everything is insufficient. This is where a cap can help. By nature of the whole situation, I would imagine they would have more of an advantage on an unregulated or cheaper powersupply, this could explain how they work for some and not others.

I think it goes without saying that if you are pounding away and you are dropping to or below batt voltage every note, or with the stereo on your charging voltage is low; you have real issues. I Think caps have their place beyond the filtering aspect(it kind of is filtering anyway), but many people feel or are told that they fill fix their "light dimming" when their poor 70amp alt is struggling to even hit 13v between drops to 11. That is where the problem lies.
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