Capacitor Myth - Page 6 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

 12-16-2011 #126 DIYMA freshman Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: anchorage, ak Posts: 75 12V Company: nana/lynden Position: mechanic Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 73 iTrader: (2) Re: Capacitor Myth with all the sidetracking and profuse mentioning of "EE", i diddn't see if it was mentioned, but a capcitor/bank is real fast-acting compared to almost any battery you will find. the chemical reaction and other properties of a battery are going to provide quite a bit of resistance to the ripple/noise/spikes and drops of the electrical system, so a cap can do well to clean it up, but every other point has been touched on. it will not give any more power than it takes, etc..

 12-27-2011 #127 DIYMA freshman Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: usa Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 0 iTrader: (0) Re: Capacitor Myth if we have people with a math background on here "EE" then it should be quite easy to work up some differential equations with various forcing fuctions! we should use: a step function, some kind of fourier or laplace signal representing music, a dirac delta fuction. set up the diff eq and graph the resulting voltage in mat lab/ maple or whatever and we can explain it to everyone from the differential equation we can plug in as much capacitance and current demand as we wish and plot the voltage results- in short this is how it's really done the equations are related to a mass on a spring with shock absorber that is forced to move! same as a car! mass on a spring with shocks! certain bumps can't be felt, certain ones can, certain ones are uncomfortable and driving off a cliff is deadly
04-03-2015   #128

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by Wheres The Butta I know this is sort of O/T but just wanted to point it out... LEDs are not the "future of lighting," that is just hype. They will play a useful part in lighting schemes, but by no means will they replace all other lighting - it's not possible nor is it desirable. I work in the lighting industry.
Here is the Butta. And you are EATING your l.e.d. comment now, ain't cha?

04-03-2015   #129

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by hotbutta Here is the Butta. And you are EATING your l.e.d. comment now, ain't cha?
wtf??? a 4 year old thread for this comment?

 04-03-2015 #130 DIYMA Loyalist Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somewhere in TX Posts: 3,519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Rep Power: 150 iTrader: (45) Re: Capacitor Myth Only because Zombie Jesus said so....lol. We are caged by our cultural programming. Culture is a mass hallucination, and when you step outside the mass hallucination you see it for what its worth. -Terence McKenna.
 04-03-2015 #131 DIYMA freshman Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Jersey(New, not the country) Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 0 iTrader: (0) Re: Capacitor Myth Four years is the "future". Anyway, Tony D'amore has proven (youtube) that caps do improve transient power. And lower long term wattage. However, he did use an ordinary electrolytic. Next test should be an ultra capacitor. That's what I was searching for and brought me to page 2 of this thread.
 04-03-2015 #132 DIYMA Loyalist Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somewhere in TX Posts: 3,519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Rep Power: 150 iTrader: (45) Re: Capacitor Myth if you have one you can send it to me and I'll do some tests. We are caged by our cultural programming. Culture is a mass hallucination, and when you step outside the mass hallucination you see it for what its worth. -Terence McKenna.
 04-03-2015 #133 DIYMA freshman Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Jersey(New, not the country) Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 0 iTrader: (0) Re: Capacitor Myth The reason for my search this morning was to find them. There are people selling these in banks of 6 on ebay. I want to find the sources to get a lot of them. They are in hybrid city buses and such. To the right person, these are worthless, and I am looking for that person. Look at Taylor Fade YouTube comparison. Amazing
04-03-2015   #134

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by TrickyRicky if you have one you can send it to me and I'll do some tests.
No need to actually test anything. This is a typical differential equation a phone app can solve in ur hand.

04-03-2015   #135

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by chris2013 No need to actually test anything. This is a typical differential equation a phone app can solve in ur hand.
Really? Is that app going to measure voltage drop, current, wattage output and check for distortion & clipping?

We are caged by our cultural programming. Culture is a mass hallucination, and when you step outside the mass hallucination you see it for what its worth. -Terence McKenna.

04-03-2015   #136

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by TrickyRicky Really? Is that app going to measure voltage drop, current, wattage output and check for distortion & clipping?
The solutions are the conditions seen on the power supply. What an amplifier does under those condition is totally determined by the characteristics of the device itself.

You do realize that most of the worlds engineering in done in simultion before they ever build anything, yet they seem to somehow be able to know how a thing is gonna behave. Maybe the math/physics is all voodoo?

 04-04-2015 #137 DIYMA Dozen Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 2,654 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts Rep Power: 69 iTrader: (3) Re: Capacitor Myth Capacitors do work but there are much better options to be had.. Hint: Kinetik JVC KD-R885BTS / NVX JAD900.5 / Hertz Energy ET26.5 / Image Dynamics X57 / Polk Audio DB1212
05-02-2015   #138

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by FartinInTheTub I use an Alumapro Carbon 15 farad and I will swear by it. i had light dimming issues and once added these symptoms went away completely. Not to mention that this does my power and ground distribution nicely. I do agree however that most caps are a bandaid. I used to have a Stinger 1 farad capacitor and it wasn't very effective.
Knowing that your cars alternator was designed to have somewhere around 30% or so of reserve power, how much reserve power does your alternator have versus what your amp is trying to draw? If your amp is asking for more than the reserve, then that is why your lights are dimming. The cap will only mask the real issue. Caps were not made to fix light dimming issues. I believe they were made for competition settings to store energy to get the most out of that first bass drop.

Its usually recommended to first upgrade your wiring between alternator and battery if you are having light dimming issues. Even look at adding additional grounds in your system. Only after that would you look at replacing your existing battery if the problem still persists. A battery that was designed to handle additional load. Only after these steps would you look at replacing the alternator. And you don't have to replace it. There are places where you can have your existing alternator respun for additional amperage.

Now with that being said, I am curious to know what amp and sub you have that were causing these issues?

 05-02-2015 #139 Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: LA Posts: 2,828 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Rep Power: 0 iTrader: (3) Re: Capacitor Myth if I were going to try and install caps, I'd make 3 banks of 6 ultracaps or whatever, something like 40 farads per bank, and I'd wire them on servo switches to drop at specific voltages. My understanding of the capacitor bank discharge is that within a couple of seconds of 30 hz bass, you can expect a 40 farad bank to be fully discharged, at which point you would have a servo switch contacts to add another bank, which would drop another 2 second interval of high voltage swing into the amp, and then the third bank would come in at the 6 second relay, or servo setting. Maybe there's a way to do half-sine charge, where the cap only loads during the woofer return or negative, delivering the back EMF to the amp that it could store capacitor style... then the cap banks could recharge behind the one discharging, and over the three separate leapfrog servo lands, continually discharge at high voltage never allowing the system to dive into battery voltage? that would be cool...
05-03-2015   #140

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by cajunner if I were going to try and install caps, I'd make 3 banks of 6 ultracaps or whatever, something like 40 farads per bank, and I'd wire them on servo switches to drop at specific voltages. My understanding of the capacitor bank discharge is that within a couple of seconds of 30 hz bass, you can expect a 40 farad bank to be fully discharged, at which point you would have a servo switch contacts to add another bank, which would drop another 2 second interval of high voltage swing into the amp, and then the third bank would come in at the 6 second relay, or servo setting. Maybe there's a way to do half-sine charge, where the cap only loads during the woofer return or negative, delivering the back EMF to the amp that it could store capacitor style... then the cap banks could recharge behind the one discharging, and over the three separate leapfrog servo lands, continually discharge at high voltage never allowing the system to dive into battery voltage? that would be cool...
Sounds like a kickstarter campaign!

05-04-2015   #141

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Re: Capacitor Myth

Quote:
 Originally Posted by cajunner if I were going to try and install caps, I'd make 3 banks of 6 ultracaps or whatever, something like 40 farads per bank, and I'd wire them on servo switches to drop at specific voltages. My understanding of the capacitor bank discharge is that within a couple of seconds of 30 hz bass, you can expect a 40 farad bank to be fully discharged, at which point you would have a servo switch contacts to add another bank, which would drop another 2 second interval of high voltage swing into the amp, and then the third bank would come in at the 6 second relay, or servo setting. Maybe there's a way to do half-sine charge, where the cap only loads during the woofer return or negative, delivering the back EMF to the amp that it could store capacitor style... then the cap banks could recharge behind the one discharging, and over the three separate leapfrog servo lands, continually discharge at high voltage never allowing the system to dive into battery voltage? that would be cool...
What's the difference between having that complex system that's more prone to failure and having just three banks in parallel?

High resolution photos: Gilbert Kless Photography

05-04-2015   #142

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by gstokes Capacitors do work but there are much better options to be had.. Hint: Kinetik
I'm failing to see what you're getting at.

High resolution photos: Gilbert Kless Photography

 05-22-2015 #143 DIYMA freshman Join Date: May 2008 Location: raleigh, nc Posts: 182 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 115 iTrader: (3) Re: Capacitor Myth so I've always thought of capacitors like this: you have an unexpected bill (new lil jon song) due immediately. your main job(alternator) doesn't pay out for 2 weeks (time to sense load and increase output) .your options are get a part time job ( battery) but you'd have to work a day(a second) before you get paid or just swing by the bank and withdraw from savings ( capacitor) immediately. you'll have to replace the funds once you get paid in 2 weeks but that money is still there
12-23-2016   #144

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Re: Capacitor Myth

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 Originally Posted by FartinInTheTub I am a UNION electrician and proud of it. trained in not only AC but DC.. as well as complex motor controls, relays, etc,... I know what i'm doing. i don't need to defend what I know to 24 and 25 year old kids. I was trying to be civil and polite to you by simply responding. try doing the same. ps.. I also have a degree in electrical engineering from The university of California, Berkeley but I chose to work in the field since sitting behind a desk doing CAD drawings bores the shit out of me. I am also an Electrical contractor. thanks again for your opinions... I will consider them when doing my install.
I don't belive you. You even don't know what's happening with your system. 15F cap... lol.... sure. 15kw amps with a 55A optima batt and a 80A alternator... funny

Un saludo del pianista

12-23-2016   #145

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Re: Capacitor Myth

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FartinInTheTub I am a UNION electrician and proud of it. trained in not only AC but DC.. as well as complex motor controls, relays, etc,... I know what i'm doing. i don't need to defend what I know to 24 and 25 year old kids. I was trying to be civil and polite to you by simply responding. try doing the same. ps.. I also have a degree in electrical engineering from The university of California, Berkeley but I chose to work in the field since sitting behind a desk doing CAD drawings bores the shit out of me. I am also an Electrical contractor. thanks again for your opinions... I will consider them when doing my install.
Your being very respectful and I for one respect what your saying.

 02-28-2017 #146 DIYMA Novice Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 367 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 117 iTrader: (1) Re: Capacitor Myth Older thread. But, here is the history of adding capacitors inline. (From memory) This might shed some light on how it started in car audio. The first that I know of is Wayne Harris used a LOT of capacitors inline in the Hearse/Ambulance (and the MonteCarlo/Regal/Cutlass) that was big news in the early 80's. Also a company called Zapco used something called the ESM (energy storage module) 1975-1991 or so in the 3 piece amplifier. The ESM was 4 inline caps inside of a box. The ESM box was optional between the Power supply and Amplifier. All were part of a component amp. The power supply was output 30 to 40vdc depending on model ps150/ps200. Then the optional ESM (energy storage module), then the amp itself (tiny, 200w). I am very partial to these amp setups, and just cant get enough of them. Anyway, from what my knowledge is, these are the first production use of them. They do help keep the lights from dimming during a heavy bass note. Unless you are running 4 or more on a single battery. Since then, other companies have made caps that go pre-power supply. This is the only one I can remember offhand that was optional and went between the power supply suoply and output of the amp. It did make a difference. And according to the manual (if I remember right) gave a 20 watt boost making the 151 amp with the PS 200 power supply a total of 220w. The PS150 power supply used with the 150/151 amp also gave it a 10% boost. Anyway, that is the history of capicitors used in car audio as I remember it. I haven't had much luck with pre capacitors (modern type) since. Others swear by them. I always had better luck installing more batteries, and was a cheaper route. Also, I preferred not to run Isolators on the batteries. This was 20-25+ yrs ago. I am sure things have chsnged since then. This is probably not all fact, just how I remember it from my area, and from way back then. tomtomjr -classic car audio collector- -former audio repair tech- Last edited by tomtomjr; 02-28-2017 at 03:36 PM..

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