Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Hi all,
I posted this on diyaudio and got some pretty off replies, can re-post them if you wish So have decided to see what you guys can offer:
"I'm a relative noob to home audio, having spent 13 years in car audio I'm about to start piecing together my 1st home system. I'm building my own speakers (3 or 4 way floor standers, 2x 8" Dyns, 1x 6.5" Focal Utopia and Dali Ikon ribbon and tweets per side) and subwoofer (4ohm final load, B139 x2) and need to think about amplification.
I have a HD TV with HDMI outputs, so would like to be able to link that in, as well as a PS3 which I'll probably use as my CD source.
Now I can get a stereo signal out of the TV or PS3, so HDMI isn't vital, neither is 5.1/7.1-I'll only ever watch the odd movie and am not bothered about suround sound music at this juncture-though it may be useful for the future-the main reason for wanting HDMI in and out is easy of connection.
So 2.1 is the minimum requirement-however I would like to know if anyone is aware of any multi-channel amplifiers that will accept multiple inputs or give multiple filtered outputs-I'm considering going active with my set up (very common in car audio and loads of choice of equipment) but after scouring ebay (told you I was tight) I've not come up with anything that looks like it will do as I wish.
SO, what do you know? What should I be looking at? I have found a bunch of stereo Pioneer amps on ebay that are very cheap, so could just get 4-5 of them-but then space and her in doors both become issues.
Are the little amp kits on ebay any good? Sound quality and power wise?
Good amps to look out for? Bad amps to avoid? Any guidance much appreciated, not loking to blow the roof off, but would have though 80wrms PC at least?"
On diyaudio I did get some useful replies, one being to look at PA equipment for a multi-channel amp and/or a small mixing desk so I can filter the outputs and go active.
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Well, first I would ask how you plan to crossover your speakers...? The speakers you are using are very different and likely have significantly different sensitivities as well. A passive crossover could be very challenging to design and build for that project. Here's what I decided to do and why...
I went with an older Sunfire original Theater Grand I preamp unit. It accepts digital inputs, sounds fantastic, has a phono in (if you like Vinyl), and has balanced XLR outputs for a noise-free preout to your processor/crossover, etc.
From the Sunfire, I used the balanced XLR outs into a Behringer DCX2496. This unit is perfect for a stereo 3-way active system and has plenty of processing including robust crossover section, time alignment, EQ, etc. This makes setup and tuning/tweaking of your system very easy. All you need to worry about after that is what amplifiers to use. The proaudio recommendation is certainly not a bad one, assuming you can get the power you want in 6+ channels for a good price compared to home audio selections.
I ended up building gainclone (chip amplifiers), but I'll be honest- this could be an even costlier endeavor when you consider all thats needed to make them and have them look presentable.
If you really want HDMI inputs, you'll have to look elsewhere as the Sunfire doesnt have it (at least not the older ones that you can find cheaper). Honestly though, I dont see a need for the HDMI inputs for what you're doing. PS3's, Xbox's, DVD and Blue Ray players...they pretty much all have seperate digital audio outs in either the optical or coaxial variety- both of which the Sunfire units accept as do almost every other decent home theater preamp. Having the HDMI is nice for video switching, but I wouldn't rule a unit out for that reason.
What style floor standers are you looking at building? Any existing builds that caught your eye? Good luck to you! It's a long process doing a build like that but it's very rewarding both in the finished product and in all of the things you learn while doing it!
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Thanks for the reply, at this stage I'm really trying to work out what I'll do for the crossovers, I realise their importance and the complexity of the design process-which has got me thinking about going active-though as you say the lack multi-channel amps for home use makes it harder. I had thought about the chip amp route-though TBH I'd pretty much decided they wouldn't have enough power and combined with my soldering ability wouldn't likely work
The Dali ribbon/tweeter units and the Focals will likely be the most sensitive, the Dyn MB/SW least-I need to get some decent spec on all-but if the active option can be done the driver sensitivity is neither here nor there
The Behringer DCX2496 suggestion is just the sort of thing I am looking for, though ideally could do with 4/5 way-I was hoping Chad might see the thread and give some input there as he's tonnes with PA stuff. I've found a bunch of cheap 2ch Pioneer amps that I could go for-but then space becomes an issue!
With regard to the floor standers nothing is final. I have Dyn comps in my car, could switch the Focal and Dali units in and then go for a full Dyn set up, could stick with the Dali units and Focals only, could go for the Dali's and the 8" Dyns only...just recalled I have some REL 8" subs knocking around too!
Like you I'm doing it to learn and (hopefully) have a decent home set up at minimum outlay-hopefully I'll be able to get a finished article as good as yours
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Thanks for the compliment. It was my first foray into home speaker building as well so I wanted to try to push the limits a bit so that I would get some good experience I hadn't previously had. And boy, did I ! Staining, veneering, 2-part auto spray painting with a compressor and gun, polishing... and thats all in addition to just the difficulty of the enclosure build and cuts too.
As far as multiple pro audio amps and space goes- I used a small floor standing rack mount unit on wheels that was only about 2.5-3 feet high. It could fit all of the amps and processors on theri with no problem and look great too. Pro audio amps tend to be smaller height wise since they are designed to be used in racks (mainly) so they'll usually take up less space than the home audio units. Ive used the Art SLA series amps and thought they were fantastic, but I'm sure Chad can chime in with some cheaper offerings for you to consider.
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
I will echo the Behringer crossover option. If you can do away with processing and just do crossovers, the CX3400 can be found for much cheaper than the 2496. That being said, obviously not as useful if you are building cabinets.
For the amp selection, there are a lot of used/new PA amps that are pretty cheap for the stable power you get. They are HEAVY though.
Personally, if it's me, I would look into older non-HDMI HT receivers, that can send the same signal to ALL outputs at the same time. There are lots of people dumping their high-power non-HDMI receivers into the market right now as they upgrade to HDMI. These are going really cheap for the kind of power you get. Just check the settings to make sure it can take individual in for each channel from your processor/crossover and throw full-bandwidth (no additional crossover) powered signal to each speaker.
The HT receiver doesn't have to know that your "satellites" are in the same cab as your "front channel"
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNBRAD
...if you have dual climate control, that would be more likely to cause a timing issue ... Sound travels faster through warmer air so lets make sure both zones are the same temperature. lol
Thanks for the reply, I'll look into the beringer.
I'd already had that idea for the amp, had found a Yamaha on eBay but by the time I'd found out it would do it I'd missed the auction any models you know of that do it or a term to search for?
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
I had a similar dilemma late last year when I was building my open baffle prototypes. I ended up with a MiniDSP processing the 2 channel optical out from my TV, a 6 channel receiver handling volume control and then a Rotel RB-976 I picked up on CL for cheap handling amplification. If you needed more power for subs, the heavy stuff is always a good alternative...I personally run a pair of Rotel RB-980BX amps for my subs but my next purchase will be a big Crown amp because it gets expensive and hard to find Rotel amps for each sub.
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatsDownLow
Crown makes some really nice pro audio amps for a decent price. Built in DSP and super powerful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad
Many PA companies are ditching the iron/copper transformers for lighter switchers... youcan get killer deals right now on heavy amps.
Crown/Crest/QSC
Bigass and heavy.
Checked fleabay for the above-only returning 2ch models-do any of these guys do 6+ channel units? How do their PN's work? Any like car audio 600.2 for a 600w 2ch and 600.6 for a 600w 6 ch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Architect7
I had a similar dilemma late last year when I was building my open baffle prototypes. I ended up with a MiniDSP processing the 2 channel optical out from my TV, a 6 channel receiver handling volume control and then a Rotel RB-976 I picked up on CL for cheap handling amplification. If you needed more power for subs, the heavy stuff is always a good alternative...I personally run a pair of Rotel RB-980BX amps for my subs but my next purchase will be a big Crown amp because it gets expensive and hard to find Rotel amps for each sub.
I'll keep an eye out for the Rotels-know of any other multi channel amps?
How did the OBs sound?-would love to have that space to give up!
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baron Groog
I'll keep an eye out for the Rotels-know of any other multi channel amps?
How did the OBs sound?-would love to have that space to give up!
The Rotels were the best sounding, lowest price option I could find locally but I know there are some other manufacturers out there with older inexpensive units. AudioSource, Adcom, even Kenwood had a THX unit for a while but have not heard what they sound like. I have a list somewhere at home, I'll try to remember posting it when I get a chance.
The OBs sound great but I really need more space. Once I have them set up in a larger room I am sure they will open up a ton. Of course, I am already working on another OB design and working on tweaking these as well. The fun never ends.
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad
most you will really find,other than the rane MA6 will be 4 channels, and most of those are modern ones like powersoft and Lab Gruppen.
That being said, Tight-wad and multi channel don't go hand-in-hand in pro audio.
Thanks for the tip
Yup, tight-wad is defo making this hard, annoyingly I have a 5ch Genesis which I could use with passives between the Dyn and Focals and then again between the two Dali units-any easy way to build a transformer or use a PC one without ill affect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Architect7
The Rotels were the best sounding, lowest price option I could find locally but I know there are some other manufacturers out there with older inexpensive units. AudioSource, Adcom, even Kenwood had a THX unit for a while but have not heard what they sound like. I have a list somewhere at home, I'll try to remember posting it when I get a chance.
The OBs sound great but I really need more space. Once I have them set up in a larger room I am sure they will open up a ton. Of course, I am already working on another OB design and working on tweaking these as well. The fun never ends.
If you could post that it would be a great help
One of the great things about DIY-always leaves you something to tweak!
Crown CP660 is affordable but careful of poor/low seller feedback: crown cp660 | eBay
Rotel RB-976 (this is what I use and love the sound): ROTEL RB-976 POWER amp 6 CH. 60W PER CHANNEL. | eBay
There are always others from the big makers like Harman, Marantz, etc. Another idea is to buy a flagship receiver from years past that has 6 equal channels. Most if not all have 6 channel input and can be used as standalone amplifiers. Some ideas here would be high-level Pioneer Elite, Denon AVR-5xxx, big Onkyo THX receivers (8 and 9 series), B&K, Rotel, etc.
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Look ma! No crossover needed
Small floor space, big sound... (a bit high though)
but you'd need EQ! And a big 2 channel (something like 2x 250 watt)
1982 Porsche 911 SC, Pioneer P88-RSII active 2-way front + sub, Genesis Series III 4 Channel, 1&2 to Hertz ML 1600 woofers, 3&4 bridged to a JBL GTO 804 sub in the front trunk, Vifa XT25 sc-90 04 tweeters powered by a Genesis Series III Stereo 60.
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Before my wife wanted a new house, I was in the process of doing a DIY home speaker project with a full active crossover. I was looking at the Behringer Studio Reference amplifiers in addition to their crossover. I figured three of these would work out nicely: Behringer A500 600W Reference-Class Studio poweramplifier | Musician's Friend
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesayso
Look ma! No crossover needed
Small floor space, big sound... (a bit high though)
but you'd need EQ! And a big 2 channel (something like 2x 250 watt)
I have EQ and a big 2-channel, tell me more!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNBRAD
...if you have dual climate control, that would be more likely to cause a timing issue ... Sound travels faster through warmer air so lets make sure both zones are the same temperature. lol
Look for posts by OPC, koldby and me (wesayso)...
Based on the IDS-25 from Roger Russel.
Look for the november 2005 issue of AudioXpress and the july 2006 issue (both can be found online)
1982 Porsche 911 SC, Pioneer P88-RSII active 2-way front + sub, Genesis Series III 4 Channel, 1&2 to Hertz ML 1600 woofers, 3&4 bridged to a JBL GTO 804 sub in the front trunk, Vifa XT25 sc-90 04 tweeters powered by a Genesis Series III Stereo 60.
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesayso
Look ma! No crossover needed
Small floor space, big sound... (a bit high though)
but you'd need EQ! And a big 2 channel (something like 2x 250 watt)
I need to use drivers up-not buy 50 more!! lol, thanks for the suggestion though, they do look cool-did you make them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB
Before my wife wanted a new house, I was in the process of doing a DIY home speaker project with a full active crossover. I was looking at the Behringer Studio Reference amplifiers in addition to their crossover. I figured three of these would work out nicely: Behringer A500 600W Reference-Class Studio poweramplifier | Musician's Friend
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baron Groog
I need to use drivers up-not buy 50 more!! lol, thanks for the suggestion though, they do look cool-did you make them?
Not yet, I plan to do so soon. I need to finish the design to have them cut with a water jet cutter.
1982 Porsche 911 SC, Pioneer P88-RSII active 2-way front + sub, Genesis Series III 4 Channel, 1&2 to Hertz ML 1600 woofers, 3&4 bridged to a JBL GTO 804 sub in the front trunk, Vifa XT25 sc-90 04 tweeters powered by a Genesis Series III Stereo 60.
Re: Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesayso
Not yet, I plan to do so soon. I need to finish the design to have them cut with a water jet cutter.
Whew, thank you for posting that picture. I was honestly thinking about a large array, and now seeing your assembly drawing and your fine attention to detail, I don't have to worry about it. I know I have no where near the attention span to pull that off
The smart thing you did though is that despite how crazy and complex that looks, it is only 3 unique parts (minus dowels). If I'm seeing it correctly the outside piece is symmetrical outside and asymmetrical inside, so you can just flip every other. Somebody knows how to appease the accountants
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNBRAD
...if you have dual climate control, that would be more likely to cause a timing issue ... Sound travels faster through warmer air so lets make sure both zones are the same temperature. lol
Tight-wad amplifier suggestions, PA or Home Audio?
So have decided to see what you guys can offer:
any models you know of that do it or a term to search for?
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