Question about clarity and detail

[Niebur3]

I have a question about how to extract more detail and clarity from my current system. When I went to word finals this year, I heard a couple of systems that I could make out more in the music...and I'm a perfectionist. My tonal accuracy, width, depth, height, pretty much everything was spot on, still just not quite there on clarity. Seems like it needs to be a little cleaner.

Car is 1998 Pontiac Firebird
Current system:
McIntosh MC420 running:
Dynaudio MD130's Tweeters located in pods on dash (on-axis)
Dynaudio Esotar2 430 Midrange located in pods on dash (on-axis)
McIntosh MC440 running:
Dynaudio MD182's Midbass located in doors
Image Dynamics IDQ10V2 in rear of hatch
Head Unit and Processor - pioneer P9

Let me know what else info you need and I can provide it.
Thanks in advance for the help!

[basshead]

Have you try an RTA to see if there's a problem?
Do you use passive filter to protect the tweeter?
any change when you swap from the alpine to the pioneer?

Any pics of the pods?

[ReloadedSS]

I think with your gear, my advice might not be worth much, but try different crossover settings to tone up the frequencies to your tweeters?

Really really nice gear.

[dkh]

Sounds like your almost there - I would try T/A - one or two clicks on the tweeters and mids whilst listening to something you are very familiar with, listen for the tweeters to dissappear and information to reappear.

It's not something that's easy to do and not something I can do in one or two goes but I have a friend who can do this and the effect is amazing in releasing the clarity!

[trebor]

Time for some/more acoustical treatment. Diffusors, absorbers, etc.

[Hillbilly SQ]

Originally Posted by dkh

Sounds like your almost there - I would try T/A - one or two clicks on the tweeters and mids whilst listening to something you are very familiar with, listen for the tweeters to dissappear and information to reappear.

It's not something that's easy to do and not something I can do in one or two goes but I have a friend who can do this and the effect is amazing in releasing the clarity!

I use this trick and it's almost magical. However in my experience if you're not advancing slowly you'll miss it because the spot where this happens is very narrow. My t/a goes in .5" increments but wish it was .1" incraments. It's amazing how many people refuse to do this simply because they can't wrap their brain around what's happening therefore they're afraid to even try.

[Niebur3]

I can definitely try more time alignment. Again, Mine is very good, just trying to extract that last elusive little bit. I have read tons on here (especially Patrick Bateman's stuff) and talked to many experts. I probably have some major diffusion issues (Bateman) and a horn loading windshield (expert) and I'm sure there are other possibilities. This is going to sound really novice, but I'm just annoyed that I send so much money and time to build this car and my $10 headphones reveal more...I understand it is the nature of loudspeakers, but still annoying!

[Niebur3]

Originally Posted by basshead

Have you try an RTA to see if there's a problem?
Do you use passive filter to protect the tweeter?
any change when you swap from the alpine to the pioneer?

Here are pics of the pods. I never had the processor for the Alpine, so I used it with an audiocontrol digital crossover....no eq or time...much much better now! The RTA is a 3-4 db slope from sub to tweet and all frequencies are within 2db of each other.

Any pics of the pods?

Pics of Pods attached....please be gentle.

[quote=ReloadedSS;855790]I think with your gear, my advice might not be worth much, but try different crossover settings to tone up the frequencies to your tweeters?

Changed that several time. Had an expert that I trust help fine tune. Currently the tweets ate crossed at 5K with 30db slope and midrange are playing from 250hz to 5K at 30db.

Originally Posted by dkh

Sounds like your almost there - I would try T/A - one or two clicks on the tweeters and mids whilst listening to something you are very familiar with, listen for the tweeters to dissappear and information to reappear.

It's not something that's easy to do and not something I can do in one or two goes but I have a friend who can do this and the effect is amazing in releasing the clarity!

I will try this, we already spent about 2 hours on this alone, but you are right, it could be just a tiny bit off.

Originally Posted by trebor

Time for some/more acoustical treatment. Diffusors, absorbers, etc.

You may be right...that huge windshield could be giving me problems!

[audiodepot101]

I would change some things up, now this is just me. for one I think that that midrange playing from 250 to 5k is too much on it, the detail is not going to be there. that means that you MW182, which also had in my door is only going to 250hz? that 182 should be playing at least to 550hz, and that mid-range should see no more then 2.5k, at 5000k you are asking it to perform tweeter duties. Instead of upper and lower mid-range duties

[n1cholas]

have you tuned with a reference/test CD?

i'm willing to bet you have some noise induced by electronic components and resonances created by panels in the car
try to eliminate both as much as possible

[H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come]

Originally Posted by audiodepot101

I would change some things up, now this is just me. for one I think that that midrange playing from 250 to 5k is too much on it, the detail is not going to be there. that means that you MW182, which also had in my door is only going to 250hz? that 182 should be playing at least to 550hz, and that mid-range should see no more then 2.5k, at 5000k you are asking it to perform tweeter duties. Instead of upper and lower mid-range duties

I was thinking along the same lines, but with different crossover points.

I wouldn't run the MW182 up to 550hz in the door, it would more then likely hurt his staging and imaging. I was think more in the lines of this.

Esotar2 430 from about 315-350hz up to 4-5khz ( at this range there is still quite a bit of upper midrange info)

MW182 up to 250-350hz, play more with the crossover points and slopes. Do not be afraid to leave a gap.

Also those are pretty step slopes on the top end between the tweeter and the midrange. I never used the driver in question just looking from a point of view from using drivers with similar specs.

[Niebur3]

I was also wondering if the Mac old school amp aren't delivering the detail...is this even possible?

[a$$hole]

Originally Posted by Niebur3

I have a question about how to extract more detail and clarity from my current system. When I went to word finals this year, I heard a couple of systems that I could make out more in the music...and I'm a perfectionist. My tonal accuracy, width, depth, height, pretty much everything was spot on, still just not quite there on clarity. Seems like it needs to be a little cleaner.

Car is 1998 Pontiac Firebird
Current system:
McIntosh MC420 running:
Dynaudio MD130's Tweeters located in pods on dash (on-axis)
Dynaudio Esotar2 430 Midrange located in pods on dash (on-axis)
McIntosh MC440 running:
Dynaudio MD182's Midbass located in doors
Image Dynamics IDQ10V2 in rear of hatch
Head Unit and Processor - Pioneer P9

Let me know what else info you need and I can provide it.
Thanks in advance for the help!

Speaker cone material

[60ndown]

try these

Brilliant Pebbles crystals audio resonance room tuning vibration

or your crossover points.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by 60ndown

try these

Brilliant Pebbles crystals audio resonance room tuning vibration

or your crossover points.

I tried those. But the car environment was too rough for them. Came out of the baggy and rolled all over the trunk. However, it improved the acoustics in my trunk. Bass is so clear now, it's unbelievable. I think having all the little rocks shoved in the crevices of my trunk liner helped to eliminate the nodes and even out the LF response.

[Xander]

Right...


Here's something funny I noticed on that site though. Look at the picture of the two 1/4" plugs on the site. The black one isn't even plugged in all the way. Good stuff.

[Niebur3]

Any other opinions?

[rockinridgeline]

You are definitely getting some reflections off the dash. Since the dash is not symmetrical, the result is not going to be the same from left to right. A dashmat did a lot for me in that respect. Take a fleece blanket and spread it across your dash and listen with it on and off with some familiar music and see what that does for you.

Check some of the work that John Whitledge did on this van with some of the same drivers. Might give you some ideas. He mentioned that contouring his pods for mids and tweets made a big difference.

Last but not least, what I have found with the mw182's behind the door skins is that they move so much air that I get some resonance or "chuffing" sound from certain bass notes. I either need to open up the factory grille, or do some custom panels that don't allow any of the output from the midbass behind the door skin. For now I have used some foam in the doors and that has helped a lot, but it is still not read to compete.