locked eca amp thread

npdang · 01-31-2007

Posted by bdubs767 over at eca:

"Heres something i think you guys might find interesting...in light of compainies copying others..

I asked an EE (not gonna say any names since I didnt ask him if I could post it here) what he thought of brax vs sinfoni vs genesis vs older PG like zpa, ms, m series.

"heres what I see,
On the Genesis:
this is a revisited old school Soundstream design. I hate vertical driver boards they all become desoldered with age and shock vibration (a fairly common failure point even for SS amps).
Nothing new here, in fact if I was SS I would sue them for copyright infringement on the basic assembly. They copied SS amps design technic.
Not much original thought in this amp. In fact the second pic looks pretty burned up from use.
Definitely not my first choice for any application. I dislike copycat companies, they stiffle the industry with junky knockoffs.
My overall rating is a little less than AVERAGE, and the little less is due to copied design.

OK lets look at the Sinfoni:
This appears on the surface to be a re-visited high end ZAPCO amp. Its overall design layout and device choice looks and feels to be all ZAPCO. with a touch of improvements here and there.
Overall thoughts, well I'm sure ZAPCO is cheaper that this high priced European cousin. I see no gain except higher construction quality standards involved with the build. Looks like they used 3 output pairs per channel most probably the same as the XENON amp as its rated similarly and SANKEN makes the best outputs (public opinion)
So overall its a bit off a knockoff, but with build quality improvements and better outputs. Probably a very nice mono amp since it has only one power supply.
But definitly ZAPCO was their main influence physically anyway, A big + for output stage. So ZAPCO + on this amp for my rating.

OK next up is the BRAX amp:
Brax uses unique contruction technics, along with very original shielded toroids in the power supply. They know what I know about power supply noise. So this is a good thing. Unfortunatly I believe the power toroid may be prown to burn out because there is no cooling for the coils, so shielding is great but with heat related draw backs. I am almost sure they temp monitor the power toroid to avoid failures just like alpine used to do the all their older amps.
The Brax amp has a lot things going for it, size (its slimly designed), and very efficient layout. Simple thru whole construction on this one, tried and true there. I recently repaired a TO-3 version four channel, it had a blown ground circuit in the amps power supply. This also was the ground reference for the RCA's so the amp failed because of being overdriven, just like all the kicker ZR, and Alpine V-12 series failed. This shows a similar design in the amplifiers grounding scheme.
But over all the Brax appears to have a clean well built, abit slim design. A lot of original thought was used in the design, even though I found some common similarities with Alpine, and Kicker ZR this is NOT a bad thing. It just shows that certain designs all have common roots even if it is just the rca grounding design.
I don't like the open frame output relays, I have seen these in many stock Bosch type amplifiers, and they fail. So in my mind the relays are kind of junky, but when purchasing a amp of this cost I would be inclined to believe that a few things might be acquired as spares.
The TO-3P(plastic) outputs are fairly common place ( I prefer their TO-3 Metal designs)
TO-3 transistors live longer, period. This is a known fact in the semi business, but they are a pain to install on build up, and repair, so they don't usually get considered for budgetary reasons by the bean counters.

I have had a chance to listen to the Brax amps, and for Solid state class AB they sound totally acceptable for this sort of amp design. In fact I was impressed by there contruction, and there protection circuitry. While their protection circuitry is nothing new, at least it works to protect your speakers. The need for output relays means that the design can pass destructive DC power to speakers on failure of the amp. they knew this so hence the speaker relays.
No one adds speaker relays for fun. They add to the overall cost of the amp, so they are used only when needed by the design so as to protect your speakers from becoming flame throwers in the back of your car.

The down side, and there is always one everywhere. Certain parts inside the Brax amp are all BRAX. that means only German factory support will be able to render your amp repaired in some cases. This should be kept in the back of your mind with the speaker relay issues I have about these amps. As far as everything else goes they get thumbs up for innovation, and design, and a overall build that appeals to me and I am sure others.

Out of all of the above amplifiers, I personally am prown to stay with my Phoenix Gold amps. None of the amps listed above impress me enough to switch from what I know works and works well, PHOENIX GOLD !

Overall the Brax was impressive by design, the Sinfoni was OK, The Genesis well I can get Soundstream amps cheaper, and I'm sure they will sound alike or better even.

I hope someone finds this engineering point of view helpful, it is my humble opinion based on my years looking at these things.""

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/...x_Gold_MS2125/
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Genesis_Dual_Mono/
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/...LItude_150.2x/
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/....2/inside1.jpg

This really piqued my curiousity about these amps. I know there are a few EE's on this board... perhaps they care to comment?

fej · 01-31-2007

Cool post ... going to have to go look at the locked thing.

But I mean seriously, at the end of the day ... amp manufacturers are not inventing the wheel, I would be more surprised with a "totally unique" comment than I am with a "rehashed XXX brand" comment. There are only so many ways to make/regulate power and convert signal ... it is not a field of invention, at least IMO.

legend94 · 01-31-2007

does the sinfoni look like the older xtants to anyone?

NaamanF · 01-31-2007

Not really.

JasonH · 01-31-2007

I can't find it. Why was it locked?

**Vestax** · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonH

I can't find it. Why was it locked?

Stupid bickering again.

Well mostly, people were hating on John Yi.

legend94 · 01-31-2007

bdubs767 is a PG rep

MarkZ · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by npdang

This really piqued my curiousity about these amps. I know there are a few EE's on this board... perhaps they care to comment?

Only comment I have is regarding his dislike for vertical. The Zed-built ESX Quantums had vertical daughter boards and they had a very small failure rate (as evidenced by all of them floating around nowadays). I think if done correctly there's nothing inherently wrong with it, assuming he's referring to vert boards in general which seems to be the case.

legend94 · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonH

I can't find it. Why was it locked?

Because ECA is a pos forum now

They close down threads at the drop of a hat just because someone doesnt agree, and here at DIYMA it just doesnt happen.
Anyone notice a certain mod from ECA (that bans everyone that pisses him off) hanging out here lately?

jay · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by legend94

Because ECA is a pos forum now

They close down threads at the drop of a hat just because someone doesnt agree, and here at DIYMA it just doesnt happen.
Anyone notice a certain mod from ECA (that bans everyone that pisses him off) hanging out here lately?

how about we focus on the topic instead of stirring up ish?

yermolovd · 01-31-2007

I'd rather read more on topic than off topic regarding bad ass evil mods.

MarkZ · 01-31-2007

I don't know who you guys are talking about. I didn't stay there long enough to find out. I spent maybe a week over there, and I really didn't see much that I could learn from. The few posters who were insightful post over here anyway, and the noise was just unbearable. Then there were other posters there who seemed to know a thing or two, but were just plain a-holes. No offense intended to those of you who try to make that place better, but that forum leaves a lot to be desired.

bassfromspace · 01-31-2007

Amp threads got me the boot over on on ECA. I find these new revelations interesting, however, because these types of threads were everpresent on that forum but were stymied by the mods and admins (think clarion and arc). That thread only serves to prove my point that amps are subject to diminishing returns and outside of reliability and power, there's not much else to consider when buying them.

There was also an interesting thread on TRU amps over on ECA around the same time. It's kinda funny seeing the rep they have now versus the humongous boner they had a few years ago, especially seeing that they were built overseas in korea (claiming to be made in the USA) and were selling for cheaper by a company named ABYSS.

stormtrooper · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by legend94

bdubs767 is a PG rep

I definitely think forums and an individuals opinions can lead to people jumping on the " band wagon ".Im not saying PG doesn't produce good equipment,I feel they do..Forums do create a market for a product.
Look how we sold Pac out of the x19's ...and a few months ago the ppi processor

VaVroom1 · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay

how about we focus on the topic instead of stirring up ish?

x2

andthelam · 01-31-2007

Wow, interesting thread. If there is anything this forum has taught me is that:

1) DIY drivers are a much better deal than prepackaged, glitz, glamor, half naked girls (actually I like that part) "car speakers"

2) As above, there is a very diminishing return of SQ to $$ ratio when it comes to amps. (no SQ amp discussion here please). The chance I ever spend $1k for an amp is highly unlikely unless it does 50x2, 100x2, 150x2 and 500x1. Or basically a dollar a watt.

FoxPro5 · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by legend94

Because ECA is a pos forum now

They close down threads at the drop of a hat just because someone doesnt agree, and here at DIYMA it just doesnt happen.
Anyone notice a certain mod from ECA (that bans everyone that pisses him off) hanging out here lately?

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

Nope.

Good stuff bdubs, I like contorversy and I appreciate the input from anyone who challenges the mystery EE man here.

khail19 · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormtrooper

I definitely think forums and an individuals opinions can lead to people jumping on the " band wagon ".Im not saying PG doesn't produce good equipment,I feel they do..Forums do create a market for a product.
Look how we sold Pac out of the x19's ...and a few months ago the ppi processor

Just earlier today Outpost.com sold out of the Blaupunkt amps that were on sale, thanks to a post on DIYMA. $30 for a 120x2 amp, can't beat that!

I really think amps should be bought based on factors other than "how they sound." Reliability, size, and even looks to a degree are important factors to me when buying an amp.

zfactor · 01-31-2007

#1 i am pretty sure i know who wrote that .. maybe... and #2 i tend to agree with so many similarities latlely with amps.. now im not saying ive sat down and had a to compare with b but as someone else said already they are not reinventing anything here EXCEPT the guys using the newer d class designs in car audio amps.. this is in fact new to us. been around for a while in the home..

nice bdub... also i do not believe bdub is a rep for them i am pretty sure he sells them or something like that but i could be wrong wait for him to answer

Thoraudio · 01-31-2007

It was written by 1moreamp over on Phoenix Phorums

zfactor · 01-31-2007

he was one of the 2 i was thinking it was..

bdubs767 · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by legend94

bdubs767 is a PG rep

lol def not...but I do likely their MS amps and RSd subs.

bdubs767 · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thoraudio

It was written by 1moreamp over on Phoenix Phorums

hehehehe..he found it.

man knows his stuff.

bdubs767 · 01-31-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by zfactor

nice bdub... also i do not believe bdub is a rep for them i am pretty sure he sells them or something like that but i could be wrong wait for him to answer

neither....know people involved in PG, and sometimes I help out a a car audio shop thats sells PG, pionner, boston, and few other brands.

I am not PG rep, I dont sell PG, I'M A COLLEGE STUDENT...I do like a lot their products but I will say things truly...

Octane stuff = mid level decent stuff nothing great run of the mill IMO

xenon speakers line= terrible design, why they choose to make subs that can only play up to 50hz and comps only down to 100hz......

ti line speakers= they claim they designed but I really think thats BS...as they said the choose morel because its the onyl one that can create those kind of cones....even though morel stole the design from dyn.

rsd speakers= good stuff for mid level IMO nothing amazing tho

RSD subs= diamonds

ms, m, zpa, zx, are GODs... xenon great once they got over their stupid descion to let sams mart produce their amps

RSd amps= havent played w/ em and have my doubts to be honest

bdubs767 · 01-31-2007

npdang....I also posted something from him about mcintosh amps too on ECA. I found it interesting.

01-31-2007	#1 (permalink)
npdang DIYMA Founder Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: California Posts: 5,154 iTrader: (7)	locked eca amp thread Posted by bdubs767 over at eca: "Heres something i think you guys might find interesting...in light of compainies copying others.. I asked an EE (not gonna say any names since I didnt ask him if I could post it here) what he thought of brax vs sinfoni vs genesis vs older PG like zpa, ms, m series. "heres what I see, On the Genesis: this is a revisited old school Soundstream design. I hate vertical driver boards they all become desoldered with age and shock vibration (a fairly common failure point even for SS amps). Nothing new here, in fact if I was SS I would sue them for copyright infringement on the basic assembly. They copied SS amps design technic. Not much original thought in this amp. In fact the second pic looks pretty burned up from use. Definitely not my first choice for any application. I dislike copycat companies, they stiffle the industry with junky knockoffs. My overall rating is a little less than AVERAGE, and the little less is due to copied design. OK lets look at the Sinfoni: This appears on the surface to be a re-visited high end ZAPCO amp. Its overall design layout and device choice looks and feels to be all ZAPCO. with a touch of improvements here and there. Overall thoughts, well I'm sure ZAPCO is cheaper that this high priced European cousin. I see no gain except higher construction quality standards involved with the build. Looks like they used 3 output pairs per channel most probably the same as the XENON amp as its rated similarly and SANKEN makes the best outputs (public opinion) So overall its a bit off a knockoff, but with build quality improvements and better outputs. Probably a very nice mono amp since it has only one power supply. But definitly ZAPCO was their main influence physically anyway, A big + for output stage. So ZAPCO + on this amp for my rating. OK next up is the BRAX amp: Brax uses unique contruction technics, along with very original shielded toroids in the power supply. They know what I know about power supply noise. So this is a good thing. Unfortunatly I believe the power toroid may be prown to burn out because there is no cooling for the coils, so shielding is great but with heat related draw backs. I am almost sure they temp monitor the power toroid to avoid failures just like alpine used to do the all their older amps. The Brax amp has a lot things going for it, size (its slimly designed), and very efficient layout. Simple thru whole construction on this one, tried and true there. I recently repaired a TO-3 version four channel, it had a blown ground circuit in the amps power supply. This also was the ground reference for the RCA's so the amp failed because of being overdriven, just like all the kicker ZR, and Alpine V-12 series failed. This shows a similar design in the amplifiers grounding scheme. But over all the Brax appears to have a clean well built, abit slim design. A lot of original thought was used in the design, even though I found some common similarities with Alpine, and Kicker ZR this is NOT a bad thing. It just shows that certain designs all have common roots even if it is just the rca grounding design. I don't like the open frame output relays, I have seen these in many stock Bosch type amplifiers, and they fail. So in my mind the relays are kind of junky, but when purchasing a amp of this cost I would be inclined to believe that a few things might be acquired as spares. The TO-3P(plastic) outputs are fairly common place ( I prefer their TO-3 Metal designs) TO-3 transistors live longer, period. This is a known fact in the semi business, but they are a pain to install on build up, and repair, so they don't usually get considered for budgetary reasons by the bean counters. I have had a chance to listen to the Brax amps, and for Solid state class AB they sound totally acceptable for this sort of amp design. In fact I was impressed by there contruction, and there protection circuitry. While their protection circuitry is nothing new, at least it works to protect your speakers. The need for output relays means that the design can pass destructive DC power to speakers on failure of the amp. they knew this so hence the speaker relays. No one adds speaker relays for fun. They add to the overall cost of the amp, so they are used only when needed by the design so as to protect your speakers from becoming flame throwers in the back of your car. The down side, and there is always one everywhere. Certain parts inside the Brax amp are all BRAX. that means only German factory support will be able to render your amp repaired in some cases. This should be kept in the back of your mind with the speaker relay issues I have about these amps. As far as everything else goes they get thumbs up for innovation, and design, and a overall build that appeals to me and I am sure others. Out of all of the above amplifiers, I personally am prown to stay with my Phoenix Gold amps. None of the amps listed above impress me enough to switch from what I know works and works well, PHOENIX GOLD ! Overall the Brax was impressive by design, the Sinfoni was OK, The Genesis well I can get Soundstream amps cheaper, and I'm sure they will sound alike or better even. I hope someone finds this engineering point of view helpful, it is my humble opinion based on my years looking at these things."" http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/...x_Gold_MS2125/ http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Genesis_Dual_Mono/ http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/...LItude_150.2x/ http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/....2/inside1.jpg This really piqued my curiousity about these amps. I know there are a few EE's on this board... perhaps they care to comment?
	A speaker is only as good as the room you put it in.

01-31-2007	#2 (permalink)
fej DIYMA Novice Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bay Area, Ca Posts: 612 iTrader: (0)	Re: locked eca amp thread Cool post ... going to have to go look at the locked thing. But I mean seriously, at the end of the day ... amp manufacturers are not inventing the wheel, I would be more surprised with a "totally unique" comment than I am with a "rehashed XXX brand" comment. There are only so many ways to make/regulate power and convert signal ... it is not a field of invention, at least IMO.
	Fej 01 z06~Eclipse 8053~PPI dcx-730~Genesis Profile P5~Focal Polykevlar 7"~DLS Iridium 3" dome~a/d/s ps5.2~LPG 25nfa~IDQ 12" d4~Forever in tuning mode 05 Silverado Ext Cab~Eclipse 8053~Alpine PDX 4.150~Pioneer 720prs Mid / Seas Neo Aluminum ~Alpine PDX 1.600~JL 8w7~Installed and tuning Team SQ Speaker Wire Friends don't let friends have rear fill

01-31-2007	#3 (permalink)
legend94 DIYMA Enthusiast Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Tennessee Age: 29 Posts: 2,361 iTrader: (1)	Re: locked eca amp thread does the sinfoni look like the older xtants to anyone?

01-31-2007	#4 (permalink)
NaamanF DIYMA Novice Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Manhattan KS Age: 35 Posts: 608 iTrader: (0)	Re: locked eca amp thread Not really.

01-31-2007	#5 (permalink)
JasonH DIYMA Novice Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 35 Posts: 288 12V Company: super volts Position: owner iTrader: (0)	Re: locked eca amp thread I can't find it. Why was it locked?

01-31-2007	#7 (permalink)
legend94 DIYMA Enthusiast Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Tennessee Age: 29 Posts: 2,361 iTrader: (1)	Re: locked eca amp thread bdubs767 is a PG rep

01-31-2007	#11 (permalink)
yermolovd DIYMA Enthusiast Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Kitchener, ON, Canada Posts: 1,308 iTrader: (1)	Re: locked eca amp thread I'd rather read more on topic than off topic regarding bad ass evil mods.
	HU: Denon DRZ 700-MBX ; Amps: AutisticSon SeeThis (PurrCrown modded), 2ch mono JenHasThis DMX (rapper modded); Speakers: High Breed Audio Dicknology Uranium series (modified foe sq off-axis response); Subs: 8 Critical Phat Ace 12" (modified to hit dem lowz).

01-31-2007	#12 (permalink)
MarkZ DIYMA Addict Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Upstate NY Age: 32 Posts: 7,248 iTrader: (3)	Re: locked eca amp thread I don't know who you guys are talking about. I didn't stay there long enough to find out. I spent maybe a week over there, and I really didn't see much that I could learn from. The few posters who were insightful post over here anyway, and the noise was just unbearable. Then there were other posters there who seemed to know a thing or two, but were just plain a-holes. No offense intended to those of you who try to make that place better, but that forum leaves a lot to be desired.

01-31-2007	#13 (permalink)
bassfromspace DIYMA Loyalist Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: dafdafadf Posts: 3,927 iTrader: (6)	Re: locked eca amp thread Amp threads got me the boot over on on ECA. I find these new revelations interesting, however, because these types of threads were everpresent on that forum but were stymied by the mods and admins (think clarion and arc). That thread only serves to prove my point that amps are subject to diminishing returns and outside of reliability and power, there's not much else to consider when buying them. There was also an interesting thread on TRU amps over on ECA around the same time. It's kinda funny seeing the rep they have now versus the humongous boner they had a few years ago, especially seeing that they were built overseas in korea (claiming to be made in the USA) and were selling for cheaper by a company named ABYSS.

01-31-2007	#16 (permalink)
andthelam DIYMA Novice Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Newport Beach Posts: 497 iTrader: (0)	Re: locked eca amp thread Wow, interesting thread. If there is anything this forum has taught me is that: 1) DIY drivers are a much better deal than prepackaged, glitz, glamor, half naked girls (actually I like that part) "car speakers" 2) As above, there is a very diminishing return of SQ to $$ ratio when it comes to amps. (no SQ amp discussion here please). The chance I ever spend $1k for an amp is highly unlikely unless it does 50x2, 100x2, 150x2 and 500x1. Or basically a dollar a watt.
	Alpine CDA-9856, PPI DCX-730, JL 500/5, Morel MDT43, Scan 18S/8531 , JL 10w6v2 It's not about the audio equipment, it's about the music!

01-31-2007	#19 (permalink)
zfactor DIYMA Loyalist Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,647 iTrader: (0)	Re: locked eca amp thread #1 i am pretty sure i know who wrote that .. maybe... and #2 i tend to agree with so many similarities latlely with amps.. now im not saying ive sat down and had a to compare with b but as someone else said already they are not reinventing anything here EXCEPT the guys using the newer d class designs in car audio amps.. this is in fact new to us. been around for a while in the home.. nice bdub... also i do not believe bdub is a rep for them i am pretty sure he sells them or something like that but i could be wrong wait for him to answer
	saw this and had to put it here: you cant polish a turd, but you can always chrome it! -Nasser Abo Abdo, president of audiobahn --with enough hot glue you can install anything"

01-31-2007	#20 (permalink)
Thoraudio DIYMA Novice Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Timbuktu Posts: 671 iTrader: (0)	Re: locked eca amp thread It was written by 1moreamp over on Phoenix Phorums

01-31-2007	#21 (permalink)
zfactor DIYMA Loyalist Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,647 iTrader: (0)	Re: locked eca amp thread he was one of the 2 i was thinking it was..
	saw this and had to put it here: you cant polish a turd, but you can always chrome it! -Nasser Abo Abdo, president of audiobahn --with enough hot glue you can install anything"

01-31-2007	#25 (permalink)
bdubs767 DIYMA Enthusiast Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: peabody Posts: 1,814 iTrader: (12)	Re: locked eca amp thread npdang....I also posted something from him about mcintosh amps too on ECA. I found it interesting.

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