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Old 03-19-2017   #26
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

Thought you might be interested in this. Korneel Bernolet, a harpsichordist and engineer from Belgium that I've corresponded with regarding the Josephson C617SET Omni microphones posted this video of himself and a good friend who is a Cellist.

This recording of Harpsichord and Cello is done with just the 2 Josephson C617SET Omni microphones seen in the video. The location is in the description of the video but you can get a fairly good idea of the space that it is in.

The Oktava MK012 microphone that is between the two Josephson mics was not used in the audio you hear in this video (Korneel initially thought that the Octava might add some definition to the Cello, but said it sounded horrible, LOL).

He mentioned that the microphones sounded truest to reality by being placed in the position you see them in. He initially had them pointed more towards the instruments but there was just too much detail of each and not a balanced sound. He described it as "too much HF detail (bow-string sounds, harpsichord gling-gling), and the overall sound was less pleasing."

I'm considering these microphones for my own use. They don't extend quite as high or low in Frequency as your Earthworks QTC30 Omni's (the C617's are spec'd at 10Hz-20kHz, +/- 1dB, though the microphone body electronics are capable out to 80kHz). But they are also rated to 146dB Max SPL and have ~6dB Lower Self-Noise compared to the QTC30.

Josephson C617SET Data Sheet

They also have optional, precision machined 40mm Spherical Baffles available for the mics... Josephson SPB40A | ZenPro Audio

^This web site also have what they call the "Clipilator", where you can listen to and compare a multitude of microphones, mic preamps, AD converters, etc. as heard on the same exact source and the same recording "take".

Other than using the C617's on sources such as Acoustic Guitar, as seen in one of the previous YouTube videos that I posted above, these are the microphones that I thought I might also be able to use effectively in a DIY Crown SASS Array setup like yours or with a Jecklin Disc.

Let me know if you have any thoughts for or against using these in a SASS Array?

Unfortunately the link to the original files is broken, so you'll have to listen to them via YouTube with its obvious compression, but make sure you watch/listen in HD for the best Audio Quality! I especially like the piece that starts @ 3:50

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



Another FANTASTIC recording by Korneel! The C617's are up in the "Tree".

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



I've also seen and heard some very impressive recordings of Classical Piano and Harp using the C617's. You can find a few of these on YouTube as well if interested.

Some other videos discussing these microphones by the creator...

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



Justin, Josephson Engineering is located in Santa Cruz, so it might be worth your time to stop by. Perhaps if you share your recordings and what you are trying to achieve they might loan you a pair of C617's.

.

Last edited by bbfoto; 03-19-2017 at 02:48 AM..
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Old 03-20-2017   #27
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbfoto View Post
I'm considering these microphones for my own use. They don't extend quite as high or low in Frequency as your Earthworks QTC30 Omni's (the C617's are spec'd at 10Hz-20kHz, +/- 1dB, though the microphone body electronics are capable out to 80kHz). But they are also rated to 146dB Max SPL and have ~6dB Lower Self-Noise compared to the QTC30.

......

Other than using the C617's on sources such as Acoustic Guitar, as seen in one of the previous YouTube videos that I posted above, these are the microphones that I thought I might also be able to use effectively in a DIY Crown SASS Array setup like yours or with a Jecklin Disc.

Let me know if you have any thoughts for or against using these in a SASS Array?

.........

Justin, Josephson Engineering is located in Santa Cruz, so it might be worth your time to stop by. Perhaps if you share your recordings and what you are trying to achieve they might loan you a pair of C617's.
It seems like the only qualification for a microphone to use in a Jeklin Disc or a something like the SASS array is that the microphone should be omnidirectional. I don't see any reason why the C617's would not work in such a thing. They are really expensive though so you might consider renting a pair (or asking for a demo set from the manufacturer) if that is an option before you purchase them? You will also want to pay careful attention to the equipment you connect them to so you can make sure they are not crippled by a noisy pre-amp etc.

Something that might not be obvious is using an array like a Jelkin or an SASS will introduce significant frequency response changes that are different based on the angle of the incoming sound. For example the change in treble from on-axis will be different from the change in treble off-axis. This is an intentional part of the array construction, but I found it useful to measure this transfer function from various angles and then apply a global EQ to my recordings to correct for the average of these anomalies. In my case, the corrections were significant and changed the character of the recordings in an obvious and pleasant way.

I prefer something like the QTC30 because of the flat frequency response well beyond the bandwidth I intend to use since the phase response of the microphone will remain much more flat in the audio range of 20-20khz. This is because the phase response will begin to change significantly as the frequency response starts to change even a small amount. For me, I view these microphones as a recording device but also as a very precise measurement tool for science and learning, so the performance "on paper" is important for my uses even if I can never hear what 6hz or 35khz sounds like.

I did not know that Josephson was based in Santa Cruz, that's neat. I might have to visit them sometime

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Old 03-20-2017   #28
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

^Cool. Thanks for the information. It makes sense about the extended FR with regards to phase. And yeah, there are several places I can source the C617 mics from that will allow me to demo at home before committing to a purchase. I did find the FR effects and necessary post-correction interesting in researching the SASS Array and Jecklin Disc setups. Sounds to me like it's worth the trouble though according to what I hear in your recordings!

Regarding the microphone preamps, yes, that is really important, too, as is the quality of the A/D conversion. For the moment I'm using the Millennia HV-3D-8 preamps, and while not being the absolute best available, they are very well-respected as being clean, transparent, low-noise, and fairly neutral. They just aren't really feasible for use in a highly-portable location rig!

I'm also looking into better A/D than I currently have. I'd love to have one of the Prism Sound ADA-8XR or Merging Technologies Horus or Hapi 8-channel units, but they are serious $$$ and I'm still a hobbyist for the most part. There is an RME 2-Channel unit that is also a dual Hi-End Headphone amp that is highly rated... ADI 2 Pro. It's supposedly excellent for use in a measurement rig as well. It's just $$$...that I don't have.

Curious as to what mics and other gear you'd want to invest in if money was no object, haha? It seems as if the Earthworks QTC30's are fairly capable as it is, though!

Thanks again for all of the info and keep us posted if you make any more cool recordings!
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Old 03-20-2017   #29
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

I'm not sure why you are unhappy with the Millennia HV-3D-8. What do you not like about it? Or is it a grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side kind of thing?

For portability, I use a pure sine wave 12v inverter to power the Tascam UH-7000 mic interface running off a small sealed lead acid battery (5Ah or so?). It can run the mic preamp for hours by itself, or recharge my laptop for a little while too. The whole kit fits in a medium size backpack and lasts about 1.5-2 hours which is limited by my laptop battery.

If money were no object, I would be happy with the gear I have. The QTC30's and the Tascam are my end-game gear for measurements and stereo recordings. I want to experiment with mid-side technique and would want to get a nice matched pair of directional microphones and a stand to do that with. I might want a wireless headphone setup for recording music so my performers can listen without me dragging wires all over the place, but I would be equally happy with some simple headphone extension cables.

I might want to get some fancy software to explore and training to go with it though.

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Old 03-20-2017   #30
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

Oh no, I'm completely thrilled with the Millennia Pre's!!! It's just that the HV-3D-8 alone without any other gear is a heavy, 2U rack piece of gear that isn't particularly made for run & gun portability.

For location recording I'd probably want to go with something like the new ZOOM F8 or a 2- or 4-channel Sound Devices or Zaxcom unit. ...Or a smaller/lighter USB Interface. I've used my Audient iD22 on location off of battery power as well and it really does work great, and I really like its software, but the mic Pre's aren't quite as clean, silent, and pure as the Millennia's that I've been spoilt with. It's hard to go backwards I guess. I'll take another look at your Tascam UH-7000.

I can send you one of my Samar VL37A ribbon mics (figure of 8 polar pattern) and a Lewitt LCT-550 LDC Cardioid + one of the CAD E100S LDC Cardioid mics if you want to play with them in a M/S setup and test them in general for a few weeks. I'm going to be working out of town on a photo shoot for about 2.5 weeks starting Friday so I wouldn't be able to make use of them during that time anyway. LMK.

Thanks again for your thoughts on this stuff!

Last edited by bbfoto; 03-20-2017 at 11:05 PM..
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Old 03-21-2017   #31
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

Oh I see. Yeah rackmount gear is certainly not portable-friendly. The Tascam UH-7000 (and power inverter and battery) isn't designed to be portable either, but I wasn't considering that when purchasing it and just wanted to get the best (affordable) mic pre-amp I could get. It still works out though.

I'm thrilled you are willing to let me borrow your gear and I will certainly keep that in mind. I do not have any recording lined up but if that changes I'll come find you.

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Old 03-27-2017   #32
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

I thought I would post a Link to this site where you can compare (Visulize) the resulting sound fields of various Stereo Microphone Techniques. You can plug in your own numbers to modify the results. There are some other cool Links on the page as well.

Justin, if you have any Links that you've found interesting about microphone types and recording techniques please post them.

Stereo Recording Angle (SRA) Visualization
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Old 03-27-2017   #33
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

I love that page! I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread too. So incredibly useful to visualize how things work.

Here is something else I learned a bunch from:

I found some free multitrack sound files of individual instruments recorded playing a song. These can be found all over the place and the intention is to give students free material to learn how to mix with on something like ProTools to create a final "song" that sounds pleasing.

So I setup my microphone array I was testing (whatever it was) and then played one instrument at a time from the multitrack files from one of my full-range home stereo speakers. For example I would play the saxaphone when my speaker was placed 30 degrees to the left of the mic array and record the whole take. Then I would record the drum kit's various parts spaced out around 15-45 degrees to the right. I then layered all the recordings that my mic array made (one for each track I decided to use from the free multitrack pack I found), and time align them using the free program Audacity so all the instruments are in sync.

It took a lot of effort, but in the end I was able to compare various microphone array/location/position/aiming to eachother because they were recording the exact same "performance", even if the performance wasn't a real live instrument.

I learned a bunch from doing that.

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Old 03-27-2017   #34
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Default Re: Anyone want to critique some recordings I made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzi View Post
I love that page! I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread too. So incredibly useful to visualize how things work.

DOH! I guess it doesn't hurt to re-post that link. It's a good one.


And that's a Very Clever and resourceful way to test different microphone techniques and how each would work best to "sit" properly in the mix! I've read about doing that in a few different forums (Produce Like A Pro, Gearslutz, etc.), but I commend you because it is a very tedious process and A LOT of work. I must be old & lazy, haha.
But "no pain, no gain" as the saying goes. Use whatcha got and use it to your best advantage.
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