where to 'aim' a-pillar tweeters?

[barrman]

have a set of mmc6500s i'm installing in my 2003 focus hatchback.

the mids are installed inthe stock front speaker locations in the doors. i'll be mounting the tweeters to the a-pillars, a couple inches above the dash.

i know this is kind of a general question, and each install and vehicle is accoustically different, but in general, how should i be aiming the tweeters? i'm going for an sq setup.

1) towards the windshield?

2) towards each other?

3) towards the listeners?

thanks!

[bobditts]

search for mr. marvs post on driver aiming.

[barrman]

Originally Posted by bobditts

search for mr. marvs post on driver aiming.

thanks for the reply.... the only thread i found that was kind of related was this one:

A simple way to tune courtesy of cmusic.......

and that doesnt really specify about driver aiming... is that the right thread?

[barrman]

anyone?

[James Bang]

you can always try double-sided tape/velcro to see which position/location sounds best for you

[dvflyer]

Experimentation is your friend.

While researching this same topic, I tried different locations and aiming. I couldn't really tell the difference between facing each other or opposite windows. Facing the passengers (or more toward the center of the car) seemed to make a bit of difference. I contacted Stephen Head (Audionutz) who said to point the tweeters at the center of the opposite side window. i.e. driver tweeter pointed to center of passenger window... in my 350z.

[03blueSI]

Well, a few years ago there was a post I think on either car sound or hybrid audio where Scott Buwalda was talking about this very subject. His advice was to start with the tweeters 2-3 inches above the dash so they are above any protrusions on the dash. Then he said to mark the vertical and horizontal center on an 8 1/2 x 11" sheet of paper and tape each to the windshield with the horizontal center lined up with the center of each tweeter. Then use a laser level and aim them for the center of the piece of paper on the opposite side.

Obviously this is a starting point and will need to be fine tuned. Also, play the tweeter from 6k or higher with this set up.

[JeremyC]

Yeah its going to depend a lot on the tweeters your running, and the car. My tweeters have amazing off axis responce, so it actually worked out better using that to my advantage, and not trying to hide it by firing them directly across the window.

Now with my old focal tweets, they worked better firing directly across.

[bobditts]

oops. I guess it would have helped if I told you the right persons post to search for.

Originally Posted by raamaudio

Off axis is normally the best thing to go for and use the vehicle as a tool as much as possibly instead of fighting it.

If not going to compete or carry around a passenger it may be your best bet to go for one seat imaging but once used to a good two seat setup you can still be very pleased with the sound, I know I am.

This may help you out a bit.


" I learned this from one of the top installers in the world, a good buddy of mine.

1) Put your front seats where you intend to either drive the car or where you will have them if you plan to compete, this is very very important. I am talking about fore and aft, height, seat back tilt angle. If not competing then where you will drive the car at and the passenger side the same.
If you are competing in car audio comps, then all the way back and low but even with the passenger side for height, lean the seats back a bit but not real far to make them uncomfortable.

2) Sit in your seat as you would driving or listening as per above, make sure you are correctly placed, if you tend to drive leaning way forward like some do, you should adjust how you sit, better for your posture anyway, lol, lean back in the seat

(here is an additional hint, almost all will do better if the seats are lowered, leaned back quite a bit, etc. but in my Tacoma I had to raise the seats, go figure

3) Have somebody you trust to do this correctly, critically important. Roll the windows up, have them look very very carefully at where the entrance to your eardrum is on your window side ear, left ear, mark it on the window or on the pillar with a small spot of tape.

4) Move to the other front seat and do the same except of course on the right ear this time.

5) Ok to get out of the car now Measure 5" forward and 1.5" down from the spot marked for your ear entrance points on each side of the car, should be two marks on the car now, one for your ears and one forward and down as above.

6) Build some temp baffles for the speakers or the ones you will use, what I do. Have the tweeters mounted very low and to the door side of the baffle, the woofers go furthest forward and low as well.

7) Aim the woofers(midbasses) exactly at the forward and down spot on the glass you marked.
This is the sweet spot, instead of fighting the glass reflections you are using them to your advantage. The right speaker will reflect off the left glass into your left ear and help equalize the sound you hear from both speakers, seems odd but it works, exceptionally well. I beat a prior world champ twice in two months, two seperate installs in my truck and two totally seperate comp installs in his truck and a customers truck using these methods of alignment.

8)Take a kitchen towel and put it behind the baffels can cover the back of the speakers, then do some serious listening tests to see if you need to align them differently but this should be pretty darn accurate.

9) Be very carefull when glassing the kicks as the glass can pull them out of alignment when drying as tends to shrink so mount the baffles very well before glassing.

10) Wire the midbass on the passenger out of phase with the drivers side midbass, you may lose some midbass output but the sub can help make up for that quite well when tuned properly, better yet to have some midbasses in the doors. Try all the phasing setups you can, sometimes the drivers side is best, sometimes but not often, both in phase works)


For those not building kicks here is a simple install plan that works quite well, has been used alot in competion cars.

1) use the door locations for the midbasses, both in phase.
2) tweeters in the A pillars firing directly at each other, as wide apart as possible, both at the same exact height and about 2" above the highest point on the dash. Wire both tweeters out of phase(pos and neg wires reversed but this may have to be reconsideded depending on the midbass wiring, take your timem and try them all! Make sure to try many different aim points as well.
3) Use a dash mat, fugly but they work.

In fact, a dash mat will improve just about any install ever done, including kick panels, have one in my truck, been there for years"

There are other methods of course but these two are the easiest to implement well. The kick version is slightly off axis on purpose, the A pillar tweeter version is way off axis and very easy to get great results from.

Rick

[blacksvtf03]

Old post but helpful to me, thanks for that post bob. Anyone using a laser level, do you have any pics of this being done? Model number on the level used. All the levels I looked at at Home Depot and Lowes were for mounting things on walls. Wasn't sure how to adapt it to my a-pillar

[radioflyer97]

I aimed mine directly at where my head would be from both sides.

question: how does firing the tweeters across the windshield at eachother work acoustically?

[lovenlife]

Originally Posted by blacksvtf03

Old post but helpful to me, thanks for that post bob. Anyone using a laser level, do you have any pics of this being done? Model number on the level used. All the levels I looked at at Home Depot and Lowes were for mounting things on walls. Wasn't sure how to adapt it to my a-pillar

First I started with double back sticky tape and auditioned a couple of tweeter and moved them around every couple of days until I found the general area I thought they sounded best. Then I used some plumber's strapping to fine tune how I thought they sounded best and built my pods from there.

I put my laser on a level and made sure it was level. Had my wife use a sharpie to mark the laser points and I measure down from there.

[03blueSI]

Well, not really a laser level, but a laser pointer or similar device.

[blacksvtf03]

Originally Posted by 03blueSI

Well, a few years ago there was a post I think on either car sound or hybrid audio where Scott Buwalda was talking about this very subject. His advice was to start with the tweeters 2-3 inches above the dash so they are above any protrusions on the dash. Then he said to mark the vertical and horizontal center on an 8 1/2 x 11" sheet of paper and tape each to the windshield with the horizontal center lined up with the center of each tweeter. Then use a laser level and aim them for the center of the piece of paper on the opposite side.

Obviously this is a starting point and will need to be fine tuned. Also, play the tweeter from 6k or higher with this set up.

Trying to wrap my head around this. Do you use two pieces of paper or one? Is the paper supposed to taped so the writing side is to the front or sides???

[Jcube69]

Originally Posted by blacksvtf03

Trying to wrap my head around this. Do you use two pieces of paper or one? Is the paper supposed to taped so the writing side is to the front or sides???

from what i read he ment tape them so the absolute center of the lines is the in the center of both windshields

the writing side in so u can see..use one or two its just ti hel u find the center, its basicaly just a + on the paper.

fire the laser right in the cross section of the +....u can only do one side at once so one piece of paper would work....u could use two if u wanted to know both centers same time and u were fudgein aroudn with them for a bit

[EternalGraphics808]

I have mine aimed at my head. A little bright.. but.. very clear.

[Oliver]

I like to see the center of the speaker when it is mounted.

[UncleMeat]

Originally Posted by radioflyer97

question: how does firing the tweeters across the windshield at eachother work acoustically?

It doesn't. It's a band-aid for people unable to properly tune their top-end. Sometimes people just get lucky with the reflections.

[ungo4]

Originally Posted by UncleMeat

It doesn't. It's a band-aid for people unable to properly tune their top-end. Sometimes people just get lucky with the reflections.

I totally disagree with this statement. The dispersion characteristics of the tweet, the angle of the windshield, the curvature of the glass , the shape of the dash top, the position of the passengers in their seats, the materials the interior is made of, and many more things affect the final sound product you get. To throw out a blanket statement such as this is displaying a lack of understanding of how all these things interact to affect the final sound.

You can crossfire toward the opposite passenger one set of tweets that are mounted high on the pillar above the dash in one vehicle and get great sound. The same set up in a different vehicle may not work at all. It may require the tweets to be mounted lower toward the dash and firing directly toward each other in order to get great sound.

And just because someone is using reflections off the windshield doesn't mean they didn't mean to do that on purpose. Luck may have had nothing to do with it. Mark Eldridge used the windshield reflections to his advantage for years in his 4 Runner to improve the staging. But I guess he just got lucky like anyone else using the windshield to their advantage.

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for other people. In many cases where you want great sound from both seats you have to learn to use reflections to your advantage, from the windshield as well as the side windows. You either find a way to minimize them through speaker placement as Gary Biggs did in his Regal or you use them to your advantage as Mark Eldridge did in his 4 Runner.

Tim

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by ungo4

I totally disagree with this statement. The dispersion characteristics of the tweet, the angle of the windshield, the curvature of the glass , the shape of the dash top, the position of the passengers in their seats, the materials the interior is made of, and many more things affect the final sound product you get. To throw out a blanket statement such as this is displaying a lack of understanding of how all these things interact to affect the final sound.

You can crossfire toward the opposite passenger one set of tweets that are mounted high on the pillar above the dash in one vehicle and get great sound. The same set up in a different vehicle may not work at all. It may require the tweets to be mounted lower toward the dash and firing directly toward each other in order to get great sound.

And just because someone is using reflections off the windshield doesn't mean they didn't mean to do that on purpose. Luck may have had nothing to do with it. Mark Eldridge used the windshield reflections to his advantage for years in his 4 Runner to improve the staging. But I guess he just got lucky like anyone else using the windshield to their advantage.

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for other people. In many cases where you want great sound from both seats you have to learn to use reflections to your advantage, from the windshield as well as the side windows. You either find a way to minimize them through speaker placement as Gary Biggs did in his Regal or you use them to your advantage as Mark Eldridge did in his 4 Runner.

Tim

Nicely explained !

[minibox]

Originally Posted by ungo4

I totally disagree with this statement. The dispersion characteristics of the tweet, the angle of the windshield, the curvature of the glass , the shape of the dash top, the position of the passengers in their seats, the materials the interior is made of, and many more things affect the final sound product you get. To throw out a blanket statement such as this is displaying a lack of understanding of how all these things interact to affect the final sound.

You can crossfire toward the opposite passenger one set of tweets that are mounted high on the pillar above the dash in one vehicle and get great sound. The same set up in a different vehicle may not work at all. It may require the tweets to be mounted lower toward the dash and firing directly toward each other in order to get great sound.

And just because someone is using reflections off the windshield doesn't mean they didn't mean to do that on purpose. Luck may have had nothing to do with it. Mark Eldridge used the windshield reflections to his advantage for years in his 4 Runner to improve the staging. But I guess he just got lucky like anyone else using the windshield to their advantage.

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for other people. In many cases where you want great sound from both seats you have to learn to use reflections to your advantage, from the windshield as well as the side windows. You either find a way to minimize them through speaker placement as Gary Biggs did in his Regal or you use them to your advantage as Mark Eldridge did in his 4 Runner.

Tim

agreed. My speaker locations are based on two seat listening and therefore are not on axis with the driver. Everyone seems to have his or her own opinion on where the best location is. In the end it's very subjective and depends on what your goals are. Put them in different locations and switch them after listening for a couple days or weeks and see what suits you best.

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Originally Posted by bobditts

oops. I guess it would have helped if I told you the right persons post to search for.


Off axis is normally the best thing to go for and use the vehicle as a tool as much as possibly instead of fighting it.

If not going to compete or carry around a passenger it may be your best bet to go for one seat imaging but once used to a good two seat setup you can still be very pleased with the sound, I know I am.

This may help you out a bit.


" I learned this from one of the top installers in the world, a good buddy of mine.

1) Put your front seats where you intend to either drive the car or where you will have them if you plan to compete, this is very very important. I am talking about fore and aft, height, seat back tilt angle. If not competing then where you will drive the car at and the passenger side the same.
If you are competing in car audio comps, then all the way back and low but even with the passenger side for height, lean the seats back a bit but not real far to make them uncomfortable.

2) Sit in your seat as you would driving or listening as per above, make sure you are correctly placed, if you tend to drive leaning way forward like some do, you should adjust how you sit, better for your posture anyway, lol, lean back in the seat

(here is an additional hint, almost all will do better if the seats are lowered, leaned back quite a bit, etc. but in my Tacoma I had to raise the seats, go figure

3) Have somebody you trust to do this correctly, critically important. Roll the windows up, have them look very very carefully at where the entrance to your eardrum is on your window side ear, left ear, mark it on the window or on the pillar with a small spot of tape.

4) Move to the other front seat and do the same except of course on the right ear this time.

5) Ok to get out of the car now Measure 5" forward and 1.5" down from the spot marked for your ear entrance points on each side of the car, should be two marks on the car now, one for your ears and one forward and down as above.

6) Build some temp baffles for the speakers or the ones you will use, what I do. Have the tweeters mounted very low and to the door side of the baffle, the woofers go furthest forward and low as well.

7) Aim the woofers(midbasses) exactly at the forward and down spot on the glass you marked.
This is the sweet spot, instead of fighting the glass reflections you are using them to your advantage. The right speaker will reflect off the left glass into your left ear and help equalize the sound you hear from both speakers, seems odd but it works, exceptionally well. I beat a prior world champ twice in two months, two seperate installs in my truck and two totally seperate comp installs in his truck and a customers truck using these methods of alignment.

8)Take a kitchen towel and put it behind the baffels can cover the back of the speakers, then do some serious listening tests to see if you need to align them differently but this should be pretty darn accurate.

9) Be very carefull when glassing the kicks as the glass can pull them out of alignment when drying as tends to shrink so mount the baffles very well before glassing.

10) Wire the midbass on the passenger out of phase with the drivers side midbass, you may lose some midbass output but the sub can help make up for that quite well when tuned properly, better yet to have some midbasses in the doors. Try all the phasing setups you can, sometimes the drivers side is best, sometimes but not often, both in phase works)


For those not building kicks here is a simple install plan that works quite well, has been used alot in competion cars.

1) use the door locations for the midbasses, both in phase.
2) tweeters in the A pillars firing directly at each other, as wide apart as possible, both at the same exact height and about 2" above the highest point on the dash. Wire both tweeters out of phase(pos and neg wires reversed but this may have to be reconsideded depending on the midbass wiring, take your timem and try them all! Make sure to try many different aim points as well.
3) Use a dash mat, fugly but they work.

In fact, a dash mat will improve just about any install ever done, including kick panels, have one in my truck, been there for years"

There are other methods of course but these two are the easiest to implement well. The kick version is slightly off axis on purpose, the A pillar tweeter version is way off axis and very easy to get great results from.

Rick

I think this installer's name may have been Rube Goldberg.

[Oliver]

WOW a Ditts post

[ungo4]

Originally Posted by minibox

agreed. My speaker locations are based on two seat listening and therefore are not on axis with the driver. Everyone seems to have his or her own opinion on where the best location is. In the end it's very subjective and depends on what your goals are. Put them in different locations and switch them after listening for a couple days or weeks and see what suits you best.

I agree right back at ya! This is pretty much exactly how I arrived at my tweet positions. Lots and lots of listening to every location that seemed reasonable and from both seats as I think the passenger should have good sound too. You can kind of guess how my tweets ended up being mounted.

Not firing directly across at each other but aimed up about 20 degrees and straight across.

[ungo4]

Originally Posted by a$$hole

Nicely explained !

Thank you A$$hole. Er, that didn't exactly sound right did it?