Help me design a Carputer to take down the Bit One/ Dsp 6

[MiniVanMan]

Doing a little research myself lately.

Here's what I'm finding. There aren't many boards with PCI, and dual video out. AMD boards seem to be the easiest to find.

Here's an AMD based board though.

Newegg.com - JetWay JNC62K AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

If you prefer ATI graphics and would like HDMI for running the 60" plasma on your dash.

Newegg.com - JetWay JNC81-LF AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

Then you could do an M-Audio 1010LT in THIS case with the PCI bus extender.

4th Gen Mini ITX Case for Carputer Car PC with PCI Slot [MCS-BIC-PCI] - $97.00 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer

[bobdole369]

I did not know about the Opus stuff. Nice that it looks to be standard ATX power supply sized!

Another possibility - I actually have one of these in my office, but we decided against an outboard PS for the boats, opting to use the pico ones from mini-box. Wow, I might recommend that we move from inverter power to one of those opus's when the situation calls for a shuttle.

IMO a PCI slot is a must if you want good sound from a CarPC.

Granted the 939 board you are using is 2 years old. HD audio has grown leaps and bounds since then. I used to think the same way. It all depends on the motherboards implementation. I do know that using an ALC889A(d) on a Gigabyte board with dolby home theater support is quite good (it does room correction and eq), but I haven't stacked it up against audiophile grade stuff head to head.

Are you running any software to do xover or time correction? I'd really really like to use a PC as a primary source and have it handle the active xover.

Originally Posted by coronamike

my 2 cents.

I have been using this to power my CarPC for the last 2 years. It takes the place of the power supply, no inverter needed. I have the PC set to hibernate so it goes down quickly when I turn the car off and comes up in 15-20 seconds from the time I turn the ignition on.

OPUS SOLUTIONS - Leader in Vehicle Computers and Mobile DC-DC Power Supplies

My CarPC is similar to the shuttle, SFF with PCI and PCIe slot, but different configuration.

I am using this audio card,

E-MU Systems - 0404 PCI - PCI Digital Audio System

The Asus Xonar cards are very popular right now too.

Newegg.com - ASUS Xonar D2 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Ultra Fidelity Sound Card with Complete Dolby/DTS Sound Technologies - Sound Cards

I am using a video card (forgot the brand) with dual monitor support (just using one monitor at this time)

The rest of the parts are:
AMD939 Dual Core processor
1gb of memory
160gb Hard Drive (IDE)
8 USB Connections on the Motherboard
Dynamix 8" widescreen touchscreen (powered by the opus)

My footprint is 8Wx12Lx6H and it sits in the trunk.

It's been through 2 110+ degree summers with no problems. I have not attempted to do what you are trying but it sounds do-able with a similar configuration. I thought about a mini-itx pc but I found this offers me more flexibility with a slightly larger footprint. IMO a PCI slot is a must if you want good sound from a CarPC.

[MarkZ]

Maybe I'm misreading some of this stuff, but...

* Why mini-ITX? I just bought a mini-computer, prefab.
* Why not USB or firewire sound? Then you don't have the PCI requirement. My USB card doesn't need external power either (the Gigaport mentioned above).
* FYI, I've been running "carputers" since 2000. I don't think I've ever had a hard drive failure. It's a non-issue, IMO. The temperature variations are probably more likely to kill it, but it sounds like you've got that under control.

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by MiniVanMan

Doing a little research myself lately.

Here's what I'm finding. There aren't many boards with PCI, and dual video out. AMD boards seem to be the easiest to find.

Here's an AMD based board though.

Newegg.com - JetWay JNC62K AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 8200 Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

If you prefer ATI graphics and would like HDMI for running the 60" plasma on your dash.

Newegg.com - JetWay JNC81-LF AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Mini ITX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

Then you could do an M-Audio 1010LT in THIS case with the PCI bus extender.

4th Gen Mini ITX Case for Carputer Car PC with PCI Slot [MCS-BIC-PCI] - $97.00 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer

Nice find! The first one tends to have a lot of bad reviews regarding the USB. The second might be a go, I'll look into it.

I have two questions, one about PCI:
Do I need a case that has a PCI slot? Do I always need that wire adapter?

And second about USBs:
I see all these assembled cases have a nice metal wrap around the outputs, do the motherboards come with it so it's trimmed depending on what connections it offers? What if I want more than 4 USBs, is there a way to get 8 total on that panel without going external?

Originally Posted by MarkZ

Maybe I'm misreading some of this stuff, but...

* Why mini-ITX? I just bought a mini-computer, prefab.
* Why not USB or firewire sound? Then you don't have the PCI requirement. My USB card doesn't need external power either (the Gigaport mentioned above).
* FYI, I've been running "carputers" since 2000. I don't think I've ever had a hard drive failure. It's a non-issue, IMO. The temperature variations are probably more likely to kill it, but it sounds like you've got that under control.

Mini ITX because if it can be done than why get a larger one. It would fit the side well in the trunk without sticking out and I can shield it. The shuttle is more than twice the size of a mini itx, might as well get two Mini ITX.

External cards don't seem to have the same quality DACs. They cost double. Take up too much space, again might as well get two motherboards. Use an USB connection. Most need external power. PCI cards come with pre-amps, the external ones that do most definitely need power.

That's nice to know. I've been reading on solid state vs. conventional harddrive and I really like the solid state concept. I don't plan to write on it too much so I will benefit a heck of a lot more with the first versus the later.

Originally Posted by bobdole369

Others:

Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 $95

You are at $900ish maybe some more for shipping for the PC.



750W inverter $255 or so. Just googled one up and I trust and use tripplite.


Powered USB hub adds 6 ports to give you 9 total $17

So I didn't look up screens, but I don't see any big issue with what you want to do other than the touchscreen, and you are looking at about $1300 total.

The equipment involved looks to be about the size of a multifunction printer or small laser printer. It won't fit in the glovebox or under a seat like say some of the mini-box stuff, but comfortably in a trunk or hatch.

See comments above regarding size motive and external parts.

I have a 300w inverter allready on board but it would be on the other side of the car with hot equipment and lots of power gear, that's a lot of power runs, and I'd rather not if I can help it.

Originally Posted by coronamike

my 2 cents.

I have been using this to power my CarPC for the last 2 years. It takes the place of the power supply, no inverter needed. I have the PC set to hibernate so it goes down quickly when I turn the car off and comes up in 15-20 seconds from the time I turn the ignition on.

OPUS SOLUTIONS - Leader in Vehicle Computers and Mobile DC-DC Power Supplies

My CarPC is similar to the shuttle, SFF with PCI and PCIe slot, but different configuration.

I am using this audio card,

E-MU Systems - 0404 PCI - PCI Digital Audio System

The Asus Xonar cards are very popular right now too.

Newegg.com - ASUS Xonar D2 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Ultra Fidelity Sound Card with Complete Dolby/DTS Sound Technologies - Sound Cards

I am using a video card (forgot the brand) with dual monitor support (just using one monitor at this time)

The rest of the parts are:
AMD939 Dual Core processor
1gb of memory
160gb Hard Drive (IDE)
8 USB Connections on the Motherboard
Dynamix 8" widescreen touchscreen (powered by the opus)

My footprint is 8Wx12Lx6H and it sits in the trunk.

It's been through 2 110+ degree summers with no problems. I have not attempted to do what you are trying but it sounds do-able with a similar configuration. I thought about a mini-itx pc but I found this offers me more flexibility with a slightly larger footprint. IMO a PCI slot is a must if you want good sound from a CarPC.

Do you know if the car designed psu's work only in the mini itx? It fit in your shuttle right?

What is your guys' taste on the M-audio 1010lt, Audiotrak Prodigy, Axus Sonar? I need 7.1 or 8 analog outs, the emu is out. This is the fun part! Well it's all fun

What's your processor duty at?

[ARCuhTEK]

Originally Posted by cvjoint

umm that's not hard. As opposed to a little volume knob and 4 memory buttons the Carputer can put all your processor power at the touch of your fingertips on a 7 inch screen or well unlimited size really. You may need to open a window but at least it's there. I don't see the carputer any harder to navigate than the Bit one or for that matter W200/H701 combo which to me is the best user interface in terms of car audio hardware.

I believe he was talking about the software interface where one has many more controls than what you describe (which was the description fitting the Bit One DRC).

I love the Bit One software interface. The only thing I wish to be better the ability to assign xo points by physically entering a number.

[coronamike]

The opus PSU will work with any 24 pin input on any motherboard. The mb cannot tell the difference between a regular psu and an auto psu. Heck I think some guys are using this to run standard ATX boards in their cars. My CPU runs at 25% load most of the time. I currently running GPS, bluetooth, local LAN, and music storage on mine. No TA or Xover at this time

I modded my SFF (it's an Aopen EZ482 Cube PC). I pulled out the standard PSU and put the opus in.

You may want to look into these cards by Azuntech

Auzentech, Inc. Sound Cards. Audio You Can Believe In. World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.

The Asus cards have 7.1 out

[Megalomaniac]

Cvjoint you have the same gen accord as mine. check it out, i had a carputer too.


before:

after:



Made it to look pretty factory.

I was using an:
- Via M10000 miniItx motherboard
- GPS usb reciver
- Slot loaded dvd rom/burne
- 512 stick of ram
- iGuidance GPS software
- Centrafuse frontend


I kinda miss my Carputer at times. I bought a Delta 1010LT recently and it has 8 analog ins/outs each so I have the capability to do a lot of processing just using the computer alone. I could probally loop the radio through the computer Input to get radio too so it can process that too. or get an expensive radio card.

[MarkZ]

Originally Posted by cvjoint

Mini ITX because if it can be done than why get a larger one. It would fit the side well in the trunk without sticking out and I can shield it. The shuttle is more than twice the size of a mini itx, might as well get two Mini ITX.

Heh, now I'm even more confused. Why would you go to the hassle of putting in two mini-itx boards if a single board would work? The problem with mini-itx always tended to be that the speeds were slow in comparison to atx.

External cards don't seem to have the same quality DACs. They cost double. Take up too much space, again might as well get two motherboards. Use an USB connection. Most need external power. PCI cards come with pre-amps, the external ones that do most definitely need power.

What about the one that guy was selling on here for about 6 months? He cut the price down to like $100. It was only 6 channel, which is the only reason I didn't pick it up myself. I don't remember the model, but you could probably find it on a search.

[bobdole369]

I found the group buy thread:

Still not "cheap" for me - but within reach.

HippoHiFi Bloat

The specs are REALLY impressive, but your ears will be the judge. Considering this one for a couple different uses. I'd like to stack this up against the onboard stuff.

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by coronamike

The opus PSU will work with any 24 pin input on any motherboard. The mb cannot tell the difference between a regular psu and an auto psu. Heck I think some guys are using this to run standard ATX boards in their cars. My CPU runs at 25% load most of the time. I currently running GPS, bluetooth, local LAN, and music storage on mine. No TA or Xover at this time

I modded my SFF (it's an Aopen EZ482 Cube PC). I pulled out the standard PSU and put the opus in.

You may want to look into these cards by Azuntech

Auzentech, Inc. Sound Cards. Audio You Can Believe In. World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.

The Asus cards have 7.1 out

So we have 4 audio cards to pick from so far, I'm making note of every viable recommendation. I'm glad the PSU works in just about everything, opens up a few possibilities. Another low cpu usage on lots of gear, very nice!

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Cvjoint you have the same gen accord as mine. check it out, i had a carputer too.


Made it to look pretty factory.

I was using an:
- Via M10000 miniItx motherboard
- GPS usb reciver
- Slot loaded dvd rom/burne
- 512 stick of ram
- iGuidance GPS software
- Centrafuse frontend


I kinda miss my Carputer at times. I bought a Delta 1010LT recently and it has 8 analog ins/outs each so I have the capability to do a lot of processing just using the computer alone. I could probally loop the radio through the computer Input to get radio too so it can process that too. or get an expensive radio card.

That is gorgeous work! I love the way you integrated the screen in! I may be a bit lazy to start off, I wanted to get it working first so I might just get the Lilliput screen off ebay that's double din already.

You are giving me some very nice ideas, not to mention I didn't even think the motherboard would fit in the back of the screen. I can A/C cool it even easier from there and frees up trunk room!

Originally Posted by MarkZ

Heh, now I'm even more confused. Why would you go to the hassle of putting in two mini-itx boards if a single board would work? The problem with mini-itx always tended to be that the speeds were slow in comparison to atx.

What about the one that guy was selling on here for about 6 months? He cut the price down to like $100. It was only 6 channel, which is the only reason I didn't pick it up myself. I don't remember the model, but you could probably find it on a search.

I'm no longer chasing dual motherboard idea. I'm convinced one will do. I'm still trying to make one Mini-Itx work especially since I found this:

Logic Supply - Leaders in Mini-ITX & Small Form Factor Solutions

That's VGA, DVI, PCI, PCIe, and 8 USB all on one card! I can run 4gb of memory and a 2.26GHZ processor.

Originally Posted by bobdole369

I found the group buy thread:

Still not "cheap" for me - but within reach.

HippoHiFi Bloat

The specs are REALLY impressive, but your ears will be the judge. Considering this one for a couple different uses. I'd like to stack this up against the onboard stuff.

I don't see how these options would work Bob. That's really thinking outside of the box but in the end I think I will get stuck with gear that can't network toghether. None of this has been proven to do what I want it to do. PCI 8 analog out is the way to go judging on what other have done. I wouldn't even know where to begin with this stuff

[Get_Zwole]

is there any kind of carputer with similar components and processing capabilities that are already built? I always wanted one but im too stupid to put it together.

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by Get_Zwole

is there any kind of carputer with similar components and processing capabilities that are already built? I always wanted one but im too stupid to put it together.

Not a carputer. I would go with the alpine W505 P1 combo with the Bit One if you don't want hassle. However, I am convinced with a little more effort the carputer will surpass the above combo in every way but simplicity.

[bikinpunk]

I'll definately be watching this. I started up a few weeks ago doing research on the carPC route. If I decide to go that route, I'll still need to decide if I want to let the bitone or PC do DSP. This thread should prove very useful. Good timing, man!

[bobdole369]

That's VGA, DVI, PCI, PCIe, and 8 USB all on one card! I can run 4gb of memory and a 2.26GHZ processor.

Just so you know - looks like thats a socket P MB. Laptop parts, nothing wrong with that, but you need to know. Just a tid more expensive than typical LGA775 CPU's. Otherwise it looks like she'll work just fine for ya.

Another potential gotcha is if you put it in a case - That the case needs to be tall enough to handle the expansion cards. A lot of mini stuff does not handle any expansion cards at all. Looks like you might investigate the case free design, which really is slick there Mega!

As for the HippoHiFi Bloat - discussed in the group buy thread, and also on hippohifi and mp3car is that the Bloat handles ASIO and should work just fine with thuneau's processing, and console. That means you get xover, TA, TC, etc. Just a thought.

I don't remember if you had a dedicated xover or what, but I thought the idea was to handle processing in-PC.

Man, this thread just reeks sticky now. TONS of info in here.

[coronamike]

Since we're sharing pictures. Here are some of mine. Currently the PC is for GPS, music and movie storage, local LAN, weather and Bluetooth (sort of). It connects via the aux in on the pioneer FH-P800BT. Something simple for now. Expandability and flexability options are unlimited. I'm doing some other things right now so not too much time to play around with it. I am using centrafuse as my frontend.

Centrafuse | CarPC Front-end Software

An 8" widescreen touchscreen is used to control things up front.


It sits in the trunk



The opus PSU can be seen here. It has the white pugs going into it. The case is just tall enough for the video and sound cards to fit

[Megalomaniac]

Originally Posted by cvjoint

That is gorgeous work! I love the way you integrated the screen in! I may be a bit lazy to start off, I wanted to get it working first so I might just get the Lilliput screen off ebay that's double din already.

You are giving me some very nice ideas, not to mention I didn't even think the motherboard would fit in the back of the screen. I can A/C cool it even easier from there and frees up trunk room!

Yea I was using the Lilliput 619. I took it apart and molded the screen to the dash using Duramix 4040, then used some skin coats of Rage gold. I then used plastic adhesion promoter, along with a high surface build primer. wet sanded then sprayed texture spray on top. To finish off I used vinyl dye to dye the whole piece black, so when it scratches it still shows up as black underneath.

Also the LCD was hardwired to the computers PSU and I wired it to a relay. So when I remote start, the computer is already booted when I get to the car, but the lcd is still off until I put my key in.

yea I routed the ac into the computer to keep it cool too. Only complaint I have with the computer being behind dash is fan noise. That fan is soo tiny and loud. if you do it behind a dash use bigger fans!

[t3sn4f2]

VNSea

[Megalomaniac]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

VNSea

Isnt that just a VNC client for an iPhone?

[bobdole369]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Isnt that just a VNC client for an iPhone?

Some serious possibilities there. iPhone is so easy to code for - shouldn't be all that hard to make an IPT/iPhone remote of sorts.

[t3sn4f2]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Isnt that just a VNC client for an iPhone?

Yup, just throwing it out there as another tool that can be used (depending the the complexity of the Carpc setup).

[Megalomaniac]

There is an app for the iPhone that turns the iPhone into a router that broadcasts. So you can tether the iphone to the computer. No extra charges from your SP. So you could probally get google maps with live traffic reports!

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by bobdole369

Just so you know - looks like thats a socket P MB. Laptop parts, nothing wrong with that, but you need to know. Just a tid more expensive than typical LGA775 CPU's. Otherwise it looks like she'll work just fine for ya.

Another potential gotcha is if you put it in a case - That the case needs to be tall enough to handle the expansion cards. A lot of mini stuff does not handle any expansion cards at all. Looks like you might investigate the case free design, which really is slick there Mega!

As for the HippoHiFi Bloat - discussed in the group buy thread, and also on hippohifi and mp3car is that the Bloat handles ASIO and should work just fine with thuneau's processing, and console. That means you get xover, TA, TC, etc. Just a thought.

I don't remember if you had a dedicated xover or what, but I thought the idea was to handle processing in-PC.

Man, this thread just reeks sticky now. TONS of info in here.

It is definitely on the expensive side. I might get the low end processor option: Intel Celeron M 2.16GHz with one 2gb memory and add the second memory piece when I get GPS, Bluetooth etc working. The important thing is that I checked the built in Video card and it can do dual screen independent source.

would you need 4 of those HippoHiFI cards on 4 usb's to make a 4 way work out?

Originally Posted by coronamike

Since we're sharing pictures. Here are some of mine. Currently the PC is for GPS, music and movie storage, local LAN, weather and Bluetooth (sort of). It connects via the aux in on the pioneer FH-P800BT. Something simple for now. Expandability and flexability options are unlimited. I'm doing some other things right now so not too much time to play around with it. I am using centrafuse as my frontend.

Wow, are you a doctor? That CPU is really Kosher! Did you build that frame yourself? Keep this coming guys it's great!

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Yea I was using the Lilliput 619. I took it apart and molded the screen to the dash using Duramix 4040, then used some skin coats of Rage gold. I then used plastic adhesion promoter, along with a high surface build primer. wet sanded then sprayed texture spray on top. To finish off I used vinyl dye to dye the whole piece black, so when it scratches it still shows up as black underneath.

Also the LCD was hardwired to the computers PSU and I wired it to a relay. So when I remote start, the computer is already booted when I get to the car, but the lcd is still off until I put my key in.

yea I routed the ac into the computer to keep it cool too. Only complaint I have with the computer being behind dash is fan noise. That fan is soo tiny and loud. if you do it behind a dash use bigger fans!

I may need some help custom fitting the screens in. I've worked a lot with Mdf and fiberglass but have 0 experience with plastic or metal.

Could I perhaps use no fan at all for cooling if I fit it behind the screens? I figuered I might be able to get a moster sized aluminum fin sink strapped to the processor and toghether with the A/C it may do well. Is the harddrive noisy too? I'm seriously considering solid state.

BTW I think I figured out a way to make dual touchscreen work:

XENARC 706TSA

Notice it says Multi Monitor touchscreen support. I have no idea how it works but the Xenarc screens seem to be the only ones with this feature. It's not translucent but it does have high brightness, and a sensor for automatic brightness level. I will have to break the bank to buy two though

[bobdole369]

would you need 4 of those HippoHiFI cards on 4 usb's to make a 4 way work out?

Yup you sure would. Each one would have to be a channel. I actually had the hippohifi and another ASIO 8 ch mixed up for a while.

As for me, if I can get the wife to approve - I think I'm going with a hodgpodge system of sorts - AI have a ton of cpu parts that she's been begging me to get rid of - so I'll get a shuttle up and running from them, and Do myself some research on ASIO and the best option for an 8 ch xovered output using Allocator.

I played with the demos quite extensively last night, and I managed to make it work just fine on onboard audio - the ALC889A. I only had one pair of headphones and one set of 2.0 speakers on the computer, but I could definitely tell there wasn't any extraneous pops and shivers like I hear folks getting from time to time, and most importantly - the xover worked! Each 3.5mm was like an output from an active crossover. I have hi, mid 2, mid 1, and low at my disposal, and infinitely adjustable. I think Allocator and Virtual Audio Cable, and the ASIO USB (maybe that prodigy hd2 dunno yet) are all I need to buy to make it work. Since the cpu stuff is free.

Could I perhaps use no fan at all for cooling if I fit it behind the screens?

I would STRONGLY recommend that you use at least a fan on the cpu's heatsink. Fanless designs exist, but they aren't that great, and I know I'm no thermal engineer - so I would go with what is warranted by Intel (and thats the retail heatsink and fan).

[coronamike]

Originally Posted by cvjoint

Wow, are you a doctor? That CPU is really Kosher! Did you build that frame yourself? Keep this coming guys it's great!

LOL,

Yes I built the frame. It's a little ghetto right now. I'm planning to fab some clear plexi panels around it.

[InterHat]

Fanless in a car is nearly impossible unless you undervolt like crazy with a mobile chip like an Atom or something. Run a low RPM fan.