Help me design a Carputer to take down the Bit One/ Dsp 6

[Billy Mays]

Originally Posted by cvjoint

The Audisson Bit One and Zapco Dsp 6 seem to be the processors to beat right now. The Zapco has a better EQ. imo, and the Audisson is a 4 way with reported better sound quality.

I'm trying to retire the alpine H701 and from what I see the Bit One 'may' be better in terms of better on board chips. The features are nearly the same I think, slightly more EQ. gain 12db vs. 9db, and the Zapco has a more flexible EQ.

Here's what I'm looking for:
Single DAC conversion
4 way capability
TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice
Good quality DAC chip

The carputer I'm thinking to build:
Asio VST plug-in method
Dual CPU, one runs media one uses all cpu power for processing
I would obviously need optical out on the media CPU and Optical in on the processor CPU, from here 8 analog outputs out, that would keep it at 1 DAC conversion
Audio card: Audio track Prodigy 7.1 not sure what my pic would be for the media CPU to output digital, hopefully something simpler to save $

AUDIOTRAK - Prodigy 7.1 HiFi

CPUs, MP3 car already built Intel dual core Atom Mini-ITX motherboard:
Mp3Car Custom Car Computer (Preassembled Systems)

Now I've never built a computer before, most of this stuff is over my head. I'm particularly interested in whether the audio card would even fit on that Mini-Itx board and how, what's PCI etc.

Is the Prodigy card the one to have? I just picked it because it can do ASIO VST. The pre-outs are at 1V, would I need line drivers to boost voltage?

Are there any quirks in running carputers? The rest of the setup would be:
Dual touchscreen Lilliput double din 7 inch screens, one for processor CPU one for Media CPU
Optical driver up front between the screens
Volume Knob
Eventually I want to install GPS, Bluetooth, and my WinMls setup on the media CPU.

i haven't read this whole thread but i thought i'd chime in as a computer person.

first of all check out mp3car.com for carputer stuff.

Single DAC conversion
4 way capability
TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice
Good quality DAC chip

most of this depends on the soundcard. if your intent is to play media from the carputer's hard drive rather than an optical drive you'll be interested in firewire based add on cards so you should want a system with firewire(IEEE1394). this is true for a few reasons. the problem with going with a PCI card is that it's very close to hard drives which have high revving electric motors in them, processors, power supplies and other nasties. these things emit RF noise that is almost always picked up in a pci card. you want firewire and not USB because USB is highly inefficient at high bandwidth data transfers. USB 2.0 claims high speeds but these are usually short length burst rates and not actual long term data throughput. firewire is much faster and elleviates this bottleneck so you can play high bit rate files without latency issues. brands to look at are terratec, motu, mackie and presonus. you'll have the best luck looking into recording interfaces.

another way to go would be a USB dac these cost a fortune ($800 or more) for a decent one that isn't tube based (figuring you don't want tubes for high voltage reasons as well as the idea of tubes in a moving/vibrating object is never a good idea)

whether you go PCI or firewire for the audio card noise could still be a potential issue. there's a trick you can do, i forget the technical name for it, but you can make/adapt a metal cage for the carputer or the soundcard and ground it to the car's chassis. this makes a sort of grounded shield that prevents RF from getting to the sensitive bits.

as far as your computer idea itself. running two CPU's one for each task is going to complicate the project immensely as you'll have to basically run two computers. unless you want to run media and music at the same time i'd go with a single dual core setup. thinking intel core 2 duo as they're very power friendly (there's 45w versions).

anything you can't do with hardware would be done through software. there's many ways to go about this but imo the best playback software is foobar2000. supports flac natively, supports asio out, has 24bit upsampling if needed, has great EQ is very lightweight unless you get into upsampling at high sample rates. doesn't do movies. i would go with Media Player Classic Homecinema for movies as it prevents you from having to DL a bunch of codecs right off the bat.

i would forget about the volume knob because you can either control volume with the touch screen or you an add on an RF remote control.

Keyspan | RF Remote for Windows Vista - USB | ER-V2 | B&H Photo

make sure you add wifi to the thing so you can connect to a wireless router while sitting in the driveway rather than using a laptop to transport.

it would also be a good idea to get a USB hub and integrate that into the console somewhere so you can plug in ipods, charge things etc.

[I800C0LLECT]

I think we've nailed the hardware aspect. (read towards the end of page 4) Now he needs to figure out PSU, Case, and car layout.

A desktop hard drive wouldn't suffice his need due to it's inherent failure from being in a car application. The hope is that he will use an SSD. However, finding a decently priced MLC drive with good throughput on reads will be most important. Writes shouldn't be much of an issue. I presume that once he has his installation put together it won't be a necessity to have large amounts of data written on a routine basis. With that said, I think slow installation times would be acceptable.

I've never seen any testing done through an SQ stand point, but the PCI card will be already grounded through the chassis/car via motherboard. Some manufacturer's already include the shroud to help reduce any issues with noise transmission. The only reviews I've ever read were not able to measure noise level differences with or without the shroud. But to support the idea it'd probably be easier just to have a ground lead attached to the case and shroud, assuming the case grounds properly through his power source. But I can't say I know much about car PC cases and PSU's. But laptops and desktops consistently ground the case through the PSU.

I like the other ideas presented too. It's crazy to see how personal the car becomes with a PC installed

[Megalomaniac]

You could install TinyXP, or make your own TinyXP to gut out the unnecessities to cutdown on hdd space and boot times. Combine that with an SSD and sleep mode you should be gold!

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by Billy Mays

i haven't read this whole thread but i thought i'd chime in as a computer person.

first of all check out mp3car.com for carputer stuff.



most of this depends on the soundcard. if your intent is to play media from the carputer's hard drive rather than an optical drive you'll be interested in firewire based add on cards so you should want a system with firewire(IEEE1394). this is true for a few reasons. the problem with going with a PCI card is that it's very close to hard drives which have high revving electric motors in them, processors, power supplies and other nasties. these things emit RF noise that is almost always picked up in a pci card. you want firewire and not USB because USB is highly inefficient at high bandwidth data transfers. USB 2.0 claims high speeds but these are usually short length burst rates and not actual long term data throughput. firewire is much faster and elleviates this bottleneck so you can play high bit rate files without latency issues. brands to look at are terratec, motu, mackie and presonus. you'll have the best luck looking into recording interfaces.

another way to go would be a USB dac these cost a fortune ($800 or more) for a decent one that isn't tube based (figuring you don't want tubes for high voltage reasons as well as the idea of tubes in a moving/vibrating object is never a good idea)

whether you go PCI or firewire for the audio card noise could still be a potential issue. there's a trick you can do, i forget the technical name for it, but you can make/adapt a metal cage for the carputer or the soundcard and ground it to the car's chassis. this makes a sort of grounded shield that prevents RF from getting to the sensitive bits.

as far as your computer idea itself. running two CPU's one for each task is going to complicate the project immensely as you'll have to basically run two computers. unless you want to run media and music at the same time i'd go with a single dual core setup. thinking intel core 2 duo as they're very power friendly (there's 45w versions).

anything you can't do with hardware would be done through software. there's many ways to go about this but imo the best playback software is foobar2000. supports flac natively, supports asio out, has 24bit upsampling if needed, has great EQ is very lightweight unless you get into upsampling at high sample rates. doesn't do movies. i would go with Media Player Classic Homecinema for movies as it prevents you from having to DL a bunch of codecs right off the bat.

i would forget about the volume knob because you can either control volume with the touch screen or you an add on an RF remote control.

Keyspan | RF Remote for Windows Vista - USB | ER-V2 | B&H Photo

make sure you add wifi to the thing so you can connect to a wireless router while sitting in the driveway rather than using a laptop to transport.

it would also be a good idea to get a USB hub and integrate that into the console somewhere so you can plug in ipods, charge things etc.

I haven't heard any issues running the PCI cards that were mentioned in this thread: M-audio 1010lt, Audiotrak Audigy, Sonar, Auzenteck as far as interferences go. On top of that SSD hard is what I'm leaning towards for many reasons. Most of the other recc. so far have been USB cards which I'm not so crazy about due to cost, often lower quality, resource hog properties. Now I haven't heard about the firewire ones at all but do any of the MIni-itx boards even have this connection?

I've also dropped the dual motherboard idea, I was the only one pushing it and dual core processors are the only ones we've been looking at.

I'll just list what it looks like so far:

m-board
Intel Desktop Board DG41MJ - Overview
88 bucks on negg

processor
Intel® Pentium® Processor for Desktop E5400 - SLB9V
90 bucks on negg

memory
Newegg.com - OCZ Vista Upgrade 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory
42 bucks

hdd
Newegg.com - Crucial CT32GBFAB0 2.5" 32GB SATA Internal Solid state disk (SSD) - Solid State Disks
92 bucks

case
4th Gen Mini ITX Case for Carputer Car PC with PCI Slot [MCS-BIC-PCI] - $97.00 : Mobile Computing Solutions: For Your Car PC Carputer and Kiosk Computer
75 bucks on ebay

powersupply
OPUS 320W Intelligent DC-DC PSU
230 bucks

audio card
M-AUDIO Delta 1010LT Sound Card - US41077 - Buy.com
160 bucks

Screens
Xenarc 7 High Bright LCD Touch Screen Monitor w/ VGA [702TSV] - $470.40 : Microsupply.com - Discount Electronics, Computer Parts, Laptop Accessories and Computers
470 bucks

Slim DVD burner
Newegg.com - Sony Optiarc Black 8X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 6X DVD+R DL 8X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 5X DVD-RAM 8X DVD-ROM 24X CD-R 24X CD-RW 24X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA Slim 8X DVD±R Burner - CD / DVD Burners
50 bucks

Slim enclosure USB coversion
Ultra Slim External Enclosure USB 2.0/FireWire
14 bucks

Volume Knob
Griffin Powermate Volume Knob 1100-PWRMTS
45 bones

Total:
$1850
Without screens it's less than 900 bucks!

I would still need Blue tooth, a powered hub and GPS hardware. $2000 job.

Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT

I think we've nailed the hardware aspect. (read towards the end of page 4) Now he needs to figure out PSU, Case, and car layout.

A desktop hard drive wouldn't suffice his need due to it's inherent failure from being in a car application. The hope is that he will use an SSD. However, finding a decently priced MLC drive with good throughput on reads will be most important. Writes shouldn't be much of an issue. I presume that once he has his installation put together it won't be a necessity to have large amounts of data written on a routine basis. With that said, I think slow installation times would be acceptable.

I've never seen any testing done through an SQ stand point, but the PCI card will be already grounded through the chassis/car via motherboard. Some manufacturer's already include the shroud to help reduce any issues with noise transmission. The only reviews I've ever read were not able to measure noise level differences with or without the shroud. But to support the idea it'd probably be easier just to have a ground lead attached to the case and shroud, assuming the case grounds properly through his power source. But I can't say I know much about car PC cases and PSU's. But laptops and desktops consistently ground the case through the PSU.

I like the other ideas presented too. It's crazy to see how personal the car becomes with a PC installed

Huston we have a problem with the M-board again, it doesn't support ACPI 2.0, only ACPI 1.0b. Look at the last page right over Expansion Capabilities:
http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/prodbrief/321399.pdf

It's a problem because I might not be able to get the right shut down modes with the Opus power supply, according to Mp3 Car this needs ACPI 2.0 support.

OPUS 320W Intelligent DC-DC PSU FAQ Thread - MP3Car.com

We can look at other Power supplies but this one seemed like the beefiest on the market. I will have a 8 usb hub to support off of it: 2 touchscreens, Hondata, volume knob, optical drive, bluetooth, GPS, External Hdd maybe and one open jack up front for various expandability options.

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

You could install TinyXP, or make your own TinyXP to gut out the unnecessities to cutdown on hdd space and boot times. Combine that with an SSD and sleep mode you should be gold!

Yes sir, I like how that sounds! I think we need to figure out the power supply next, it seems to be much more important the the other standard components like HDD, optical drives etc. I was so bummed last night when I found out the Opus is not compatible with the Intel board.

[felix509]

Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT

A desktop hard drive wouldn't suffice his need due to it's inherent failure from being in a car application.

How many hard drives have you had fail in your car??

I personally have (2) regular desktop hard drives in my car, neither have failed in a couple years..


Many people use 3.5 drives of garden variety with great success..


I skipped the case and mounted stuff on a flat surface with spacers to keep it isolated/cooled.

You might consider one of the PCI ribbon extensions, then your PCI 1010 card will have lots of flexibility to be mounted.. I have used one for 12 months with no trouble..

PCI ribbon example

[t3sn4f2]

Don't M-Audio products crap out when hibernating or suspending?

[I800C0LLECT]

That's odd. Two of mine failed within about 3 months time frame. Perhaps it's more to do with location than actual installation?

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Don't M-Audio products crap out when hibernating or suspending?

Ahh you are right. I remember Durwood warned me about this too. So I will have to go full shut down everytime. I think all Asio cards do this btw. Is the Opus still going to be able to order a shut down of the computer if it's not the same ACPI version as the Bios?

[bobdole369]

a powered hub

One is linked earlier in the thread.

[I800C0LLECT]

As far as I know...the ACPI issue relates to hibernating n' such. Turn off and turn on shouldn't be an issue. I'll look into it but I've never had problems with desktops.

[t3sn4f2]

Originally Posted by cvjoint

Ahh you are right. I remember Durwood warned me about this too. So I will have to go full shut down everytime. I think all Asio cards do this btw. Is the Opus still going to be able to order a shut down of the computer if it's not the same ACPI version as the Bios?

Good to know, thanks.

[t3sn4f2]

Delta 1010LT RMAA

[t3sn4f2]

I Just found this, don't know if it's been mentioned already but might be useful for anyone with an external sound card system that has its own power switch.


"Beta Admin
Administrator Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 110

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi tkay,
M-Audio does not support sleep mode with any of its devices. The ability to re-establish a connection with a 3rd party device driver after waking from sleep or hibernation mode is system dependent. Because of this, M-Audio recommends setting your computer to never go to sleep. Instead, it is recommended that you turn off your monitor, or completely power off the computer. If your M-Audio device is not working after waking from sleep mode, restart your computer to re-establish a connection with the device.

If you would like to use sleep mode, please see the following recommendations:

For FireWire devices equipped with an power button or switch, power off your M-Audio device before putting the computer in sleep mode, and wake the computer from sleep mode before powering your device back on. Caution: Do Not Hot-Plug FireWire Devices

For USB devices equipped with an power button or switch, power off your M-Audio device before putting the computer in sleep mode, and wake the computer from sleep mode before powering your device back on.

For USB devices without a power switch, disconnect the USB cable before putting the computer in sleep mode, and wake the computer from sleep mode before reconnecting. You can disconnect the USB cable from either the M-Audio device or the computer. When disconnecting from the computer, make sure you reconnect to the same USB port.

If your M-Audio device is not working after following the procedures above, restart your computer to re-establish a connection with the device.

All the best,
Beta Admin"

[I800C0LLECT]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Delta 1010LT RMAA

Great link!! That's pretty exciting to see

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by bobdole369

One is linked earlier in the thread.

Newegg.com - BYTECC BT- 217C 7 Ports USB 2.0 Aluminum Silm HUB - Hubs

I'm guessing I can just modify the plug by cutting the transformer and plugging it into regulated power from the power supply.

Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT

As far as I know...the ACPI issue relates to hibernating n' such. Turn off and turn on shouldn't be an issue. I'll look into it but I've never had problems with desktops.

I sure pray so. I like that Opus supply, it seems like nobody found the limits on it.

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Delta 1010LT RMAA

Good to know, thanks.

[RoRo]

Been looking over this thread, interesting stuff.

I found a guy locally who is selling these PC's but might be willing to part with just the M-audio cards only. He has about 17 systems.... for the local people heres the link.
The LCD's are touch screen via USB from what he said... the rest of the PC isn't worth all that much.

I asked him if he would sell the cards for 80 or 100, so he emailed back asking how many I'd be interested for 100 bucks each.
Let me know if anyone is interested at all, PM me and put M-audio Delta.

edit: found out the cards are out of warranty, so might not be worth the trouble...

peace,

Ro

[cvjoint]

I'm going to wait a bit on purchasing all this gear until I have all the details ironed out. I'm currently waiting on OPUS to return my email. I asked them what high capacity powersupplies they have in stock since the 320 and the 360w units are out of stock everywhere. I also sent them a link with the Intel motherboard to get more precise answers for compatibility issues.

So far it seems that power on/off should work just fine no matter what protocol the bios uses for it. 250w also seems about enough juice for what I want to do.

I'm a bit confused on how to get bluetooth functionality going. I know the usb adapters are readily available and cheap but will they cut off all other music to place the bluetooth call though?

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Delta 1010LT RMAA

Do you guys recognize any other 8 way ASIO cards in this group? I looked at a few and they seem to be stereo only, the EMU looked really good but lacks the features.

Also note the PCI M-audio cards are generally better than the USB counterparts.

[t3sn4f2]

Originally Posted by cvjoint

Do you guys recognize any other 8 way ASIO cards in this group? I looked at a few and they seem to be stereo only, the EMU looked really good but lacks the features.

Also note the PCI M-audio cards are generally better than the USB counterparts.

Those are loopback test by the way, so they combine input and output stages performance into one. The lower performing one might actually have better output numbers and its performance could be being corrupted by its input stage. It shouldn't really matter though since those numbers are sooo good and within dbs of each other and almost at the file formats theoretical limits.

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Those are loopback test by the way, so they combine input and output stages performance into one. The lower performing one might actually have better output numbers and its performance could be being corrupted by its input stage. It shouldn't really matter though since those numbers are sooo good and within dbs of each other and almost at the file formats theoretical limits.

yeah, FR and distortion are perfect I was simply looking at noise levels and dynamic output.

I've also searched a bit on the USB vs. PCI the Pci does seem to still have the edge speed wise. The USB has the advantage in noise immunity but I may design my own noise free case.

[Sponge]

Have not read this yet but here is my experience on a couple of the items discussed:

I use a USB DAC (HippoHifi Bloat) but do my processing on a Zapco DC amp... I know, this defeats some of the point of the CarPC, but don't rule them out, there are good USB DACs out there for reasonable prices.

I run a Samsung SSD for OS and Music (with a stripped XP install) but ran a 3.5" desktop drive for years, even got into an accident at 40mph and pulled the CarPC and put it into the new car and continued to use it for another year... drive never failed. SSDs will last a very long time in a CarPC environment because there are very few write operations to the drive.

I hibernate, its faster than cold boot in my situation. If you choose to hibernate, limit your ram to the lowest possible to shrink the hiberfile (an image of the ram). I run 1GB and limit it in XP to 250MB in boot.ini. SSDs do not really help with hibernation resume speed.

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by Sponge

I run a Samsung SSD for OS and Music (with a stripped XP install) but ran a 3.5" desktop drive for years, even got into an accident at 40mph and pulled the CarPC and put it into the new car and continued to use it for another year... drive never failed. SSDs will last a very long time in a CarPC environment because there are very few write operations to the drive.

Ooo how did the SSD work for you? I'm glad to know it will survive a bit in a carputer We have come to the conclusion that the Asio card I want to use for audio, the M-audio does not like hibernation, and well probably the power supply can't do it anyway. It seems like full shut down is the only way to go. Did you notice the SSD being considerably better in this respect?

[Sponge]

Yes, for cold boot, SSD is the way to go. I run four of them in a striped RAID array on my desktop... its cool technology. Shock resistant and better operating temperatures too.

+ YouTube Video

And you dont need a monster PSU either, nice to have, but don't let it hold up your build. I run an E8200 (dual core 2.66Ghz) in my car and under load I think it pulled no more than 70w from my 12v power supply using a DMM. I run an old Opus 150w.

[I800C0LLECT]

If you are looking at the option for suspend and Resume operatino then we need to possibly look at an ACPI 2.0 capable motherboard.

Again, if you don't care then turn on/off will be fine when matching the 1.0b mobo with the PSU but if you want to suspend you might be pissed. Make sure you find out from the manufacturer of the PSU if it handles 1.0b alright. It should be backwards compatible but I have seen issues with PSU's and boards in the past that weren't on the same page. Problems are usually instigated through poor driver development though. That's why I like the intel board to begin with. Drivers are usually quit solid. After all, they're the provider for majority of the chipsets on the mobo.