Help me design a Carputer to take down the Bit One/ Dsp 6

[cvjoint]

The Audisson Bit One and Zapco Dsp 6 seem to be the processors to beat right now. The Zapco has a better EQ. imo, and the Audisson is a 4 way with reported better sound quality.

I'm trying to retire the alpine H701 and from what I see the Bit One 'may' be better in terms of better on board chips. The features are nearly the same I think, slightly more EQ. gain 12db vs. 9db, and the Zapco has a more flexible EQ.

Here's what I'm looking for:
Single DAC conversion
4 way capability
TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice
Good quality DAC chip

The carputer I'm thinking to build:
Asio VST plug-in method
Dual CPU, one runs media one uses all cpu power for processing
I would obviously need optical out on the media CPU and Optical in on the processor CPU, from here 8 analog outputs out, that would keep it at 1 DAC conversion
Audio card: Audio track Prodigy 7.1 not sure what my pic would be for the media CPU to output digital, hopefully something simpler to save $

AUDIOTRAK - Prodigy 7.1 HiFi

CPUs, MP3 car already built Intel dual core Atom Mini-ITX motherboard:
Mp3Car Custom Car Computer (Preassembled Systems)

Now I've never built a computer before, most of this stuff is over my head. I'm particularly interested in whether the audio card would even fit on that Mini-Itx board and how, what's PCI etc.

Is the Prodigy card the one to have? I just picked it because it can do ASIO VST. The pre-outs are at 1V, would I need line drivers to boost voltage?

Are there any quirks in running carputers? The rest of the setup would be:
Dual touchscreen Lilliput double din 7 inch screens, one for processor CPU one for Media CPU
Optical driver up front between the screens
Volume Knob
Eventually I want to install GPS, Bluetooth, and my WinMls setup on the media CPU.

[InterHat]

How do you expect to do this: "TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice?"

Also, I'm not a huge fan of cards that do outputs in this manner. I prefer the e-mu or m-audio breakout box style. I'm not sure if anything is lost or gained, but you go 1/4 L/R to RCA L/R. I prefer that to going from 1/8" stereo to 2 RCA's.

You've never built a computer and you're attempting this? :\ Make sure you have someone nearby who knows what they're doing... especially regarding cooling.

[falkenbd]

Dual CPU, one runs media one uses all cpu power for processing

You don't really get to pick and choose what each CPU does.

A good sound card could do a lot of the work on board.

Dual CPU means extra heat, I'd get a cool running dual core.

I'm thinking you should head over to mp3car.com to get an idea of what you are actually going to do.

[RMAT]

Originally Posted by falkenbd

You don't really get to pick and choose what each CPU does.

Yes you do. It's called affinity.

Getting More Bang Out of Your Dual Processing Buck : Getting The Most Out Of Software By Properly Assigning Threads - Review Tom's Hardware

and that article was written 5 yrs ago.

[falkenbd]

Originally Posted by RMAT

Yes you do. It's called affinity.

Getting More Bang Out of Your Dual Processing Buck : Getting The Most Out Of Software By Properly Assigning Threads - Review Tom's Hardware

and that article was written 5 yrs ago.

Everytime I have used affinity, I've had issues or seen very little or no gain. (unless we are talking about LPARs on a mainframe)

Even on servers, it has worked out better for me to just let the system manage it itself.

On the modern CPUs you won't have any issues running sound processing and media at the same time. Having extra ram will gain you more than controlling where individual processes run. Because honestly, the system knows better how to handle its resources.

Unless you make it so the ONLY thing that runs on one of the cores is the sound processing. You still share other resources.

5 years ago, it was different. With dual core technology, just don't worry about setting that up.

[yermolovd]

I researched for a while and ended up with this. about to install it any given weekend.
- jetway JNC81-LF mini itx board
- AMD 4850e (2.5Ghz, 45w model )
- 2 gbs
- M-Audio 1010LT soundcard
- Console for vst plugins and thuneau frequency allocator for processing.

[yermolovd]

Forgot to add I'm using logitech space navigator for knob.

[braves6117]

I'd be curious to see if you could defeat the user interface aspect of the BitOne as its awesome

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by InterHat

How do you expect to do this: "TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice?"

Also, I'm not a huge fan of cards that do outputs in this manner. I prefer the e-mu or m-audio breakout box style. I'm not sure if anything is lost or gained, but you go 1/4 L/R to RCA L/R. I prefer that to going from 1/8" stereo to 2 RCA's.

You've never built a computer and you're attempting this? :\ Make sure you have someone nearby who knows what they're doing... especially regarding cooling.

Carputers and Audissey are the only ways to get this sort of advanced processing. Audissey has drawbacks in terms of manual adjustment and that is why carputers are really attractive to me right now. I maxed out on the H701 processing, I know it inside out, I want something with more potential.

I'm not picky on how the RCAs make it out.

I have to start somewhere. I was hoping you guys would help
I can guarantee a good power supply and cooling: I have 180amp alternator, largest yellowtop, 0 gauge wiring and multiple power runs, A/C cooling for the trunk.

Originally Posted by falkenbd

You don't really get to pick and choose what each CPU does.

A good sound card could do a lot of the work on board.

Dual CPU means extra heat, I'd get a cool running dual core.

I'm thinking you should head over to mp3car.com to get an idea of what you are actually going to do.

I think you guys are misunderstanding me. I want dual motherboards. Whether they are both dual or quad core I don't know. I want one computer to run only processing. With hardware based processing this is supposed to use a lot of processing power, MP3car reccomends Pentium 4 dedicated processor or AMD.


Here is what I figured, most of this software likes XP, I like XP vs. Vista for compatibility at the very least. Then if you want 32bit to get even more compatibility you are limited to 3gb ram. I guess my conclusion is one motherboard running 3gb of memory on a 32 bit processor will run out of steam fast with: audio processing, video playback, GPS, Bluetooth, and I would idealy want to run Hondata engine management to display all the sensors' output on board, so two video displays.

Originally Posted by yermolovd

I researched for a while and ended up with this. about to install it any given weekend.
- jetway JNC81-LF mini itx board
- AMD 4850e (2.5Ghz, 45w model )
- 2 gbs
- M-Audio 1010LT soundcard
- Console for vst plugins and thuneau frequency allocator for processing.

Thanks Yermolovd! That looks kick ass, I'm particularly impressed by the M-Audio card with built in pre-amps and XLR connectors for my MLS setup. You seem to want to do everything on one motherboard, this is a bit two extreme for dual motherboard setup. You would have to loose all that HD audio gear on it right?

Originally Posted by braves6117

I'd be curious to see if you could defeat the user interface aspect of the BitOne as its awesome

umm that's not hard. As opposed to a little volume knob and 4 memory buttons the Carputer can put all your processor power at the touch of your fingertips on a 7 inch screen or well unlimited size really. You may need to open a window but at least it's there. I don't see the carputer any harder to navigate than the Bit one or for that matter W200/H701 combo which to me is the best user interface in terms of car audio hardware.

[cvjoint]

durwood can't PM or email you

[dbiegel]

This is awesome, if anyone can do this its George. I can't wait to see it as it progresses as a carputer is light years ahead of the outdated tech packaged in car audio products. It's been a while since I looked at it, but one thing I remember is how it beneficial it seemed to have hardware based DSP, to free up processing power for other tasks and also might offer better SQ. I'll take a look around and see what kind of new technology and software is out there now.

[MarkZ]

FWIW, running all those options (xover, delay, phase, L+R mix) on Console or Audiomulch for 8 channels pins my cpu usage to about 25% on a dual core pentium. So I really don't see what you're gaining by trying to do dual motherboards or whatever the hell it is you're talking about.

As others have mentioned, the issue that you probably need to deal with more than anything else is extreme heat and extreme cold. Extreme heat makes you shut down. Extreme cold makes hard drives not like to boot up until they've spun for a little while.

[jsun_g]

It's been a long time since I messed with the internals of a computer, but I'd imagine you'd be able to run a stripped down version of Linux, buy a crapload of RAM (it's cheap) and have the entire OS/image permanently resident in memory, i.e. no loading up from hard drive. In case of any problems, you could have the BIOS try to load from an external source first (which you would have a backup media (CD, HD, network,...) handy to boot up just in case). Anyone tried this?

[yermolovd]

Originally Posted by cvjoint

Thanks Yermolovd! That looks kick ass, I'm particularly impressed by the M-Audio card with built in pre-amps and XLR connectors for my MLS setup. You seem to want to do everything on one motherboard, this is a bit two extreme for dual motherboard setup. You would have to loose all that HD audio gear on it right?

The setup should handle everything alright. I know durwood is using less powerful systemm and he's fine. Sorry I didn't understand about HD audio gear on it. What you mean by that? You mean the onboard audio on the mobo?
I especially liked this motherboard due to its tiny factor and pci slot, which isn't too popular on miniitx boards. The whole package is going to fit into a about 10x14x3 case if memory serves me right (cut up an old case). I didn't feel like hauling full sized mobo.

I don't think extreme cold is an issue that you will deal with due to your location, so you have one less headache. I actually am trying to hookup my ide hard drive through USB and boot off that (hd in between front seats, so I can take it out during winter time to avoid cold start problems).

[cvjoint]

That's about what I would expect it at, 25%. But what happens when you add another video screen running engine diagnostics, play video on the main one, run GPS and bluetooth at the same time? I know my laptop is a dual 64 bit AMD 2.2GHZ and 4 gb of ram and when I use two screens it takes a serious amount of processing. I just don't want to find out what happens to the audio processing when you reach high levels of usage, the equivalent of a window taking 5 seconds to minimize.

It all depends on what you are trying to run on it. If it's just Winamp, single screen and processing I have no doubt a dual core can do it. I'm also afraid of demand spykes on the processor when programs need lots of processing quick.

Correct me if I'm wrong but 32 Bit XP cannot run more than 3gb of memory so it's not unlimited even if I can get a quad core to solve processor needs.

Cooling is not a problem as mentioned before. It's hot as balls already in So. Cal. but the air conditioning keeps my trunk cool. I haven't lost a single amp. since I ran the pipes. Cold weather is likewise not a problem. Have you guys tried the 'rugged' harddrives on mp3car? I'm guessing they might take extreme temperatures better, either way the motherboards are only rated at 55C from what I saw.

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by yermolovd

The setup should handle everything alright. I know durwood is using less powerful systemm and he's fine. Sorry I didn't understand about HD audio gear on it. What you mean by that? You mean the onboard audio on the mobo?
I especially liked this motherboard due to its tiny factor and pci slot, which isn't too popular on miniitx boards. The whole package is going to fit into a about 10x14x3 case if memory serves me right (cut up an old case). I didn't feel like hauling full sized mobo.

I looked up the motherboard you posted and it said it comes with a 6 channel HD card with HDMI outs and stuff. That's what I meant by it might be wasted since you are getting the M-audio instead and a basic screen. But running a quad core on that would be really nice.

[bobdole369]

I just set up this mini-box (m350) case with PICO PSU for a project at work. Used a Zotac 7100 and I was just thinking about exactly that - how awesome a car CPU it might make with a better board. We are going to use it onboard a boat monitoring screen, but if one of these come with an optical out - especially if one of these mini-itx's comes with one of the Dolby functions (Dolby Home Theater - where the sound stuff actually encodes into surround) there is no reason to have any other sound card besides the onboard stuff. Well there are still better sounding analog cards I'm sure. The analog side of ALC889A (one of the decent HD audio onboard sound cards) has a very nice on-paper spec sheet, but I have yet to actually hear one put to some nice equipment.

It's been a while since I looked at it, but one thing I remember is how it beneficial it seemed to have hardware based DSP, to free up processing power for other tasks and also might offer better SQ. I'll take a look around and see what kind of new technology and software is out there now.

CPU power and memory are very cheap. With onboard sound it's easy to do a lot of effects in software now.

Have you guys tried the 'rugged' harddrives on mp3car?

Solid state drives are cheap and have no rotating parts. Put OS and apps on that.

You never write to them in this application (flash has a lifetime limited number of write cycles). Set it up and let it run, hibernate when the car shuts off to an external hard drive, which holds the media and is easy to put new stuff on.

You don't really get to pick and choose what each CPU does.

You can make that happen (affinity) but you don't want to - the CPU does pretty well. I've only had to use it to play simcity 4 (doesn't like running on 4 cpus)

But what happens when you add another video screen running engine diagnostics, play video on the main one, run GPS and bluetooth at the same time?

Engine diags are at their heart just serial data, sometimes with scaling and maybe some math. Quite simple to display, but that depends on the app you are running, might need cpu or graphics. Our boat stuff does some very good gauges and graphics, and uses a good amount of cpu, but not much help from the graphics card. GPS and bluetooth are the same thing too just serial data, if you have a map displayed that takes some CPU and a decent bit of RAM, but look how well even google maps works and that takes nothing. HD video is hard to display right with a slow cpu though. That might be worth another box dedicated to video.

I know my laptop is a dual 64 bit AMD 2.2GHZ and 4 gb of ram and when I use two screens it takes a serious amount of processing.

Don't want to start a cpu war, but boss uses a quad 2.4ghz intel and runs 4 screens + HDMI to a 42" LCD. And actually uses all 4 productively and its not slow (autocad and sketchup and solidworks). Runs out of RAM in xp 32bit more often.

I want dual motherboards.

2 really small computers perhaps?

TA, Xovers, EQ minimum, time correction and phase correct filters definitely nice?

With Dolby certified boards - TA, EQ, TC are in teh software and done in the sound card. Lots of ways to do it in the player software too. It's a big deal and it works.

I'd really like to find a way (I'm sure it exists, probably costs) to turn all 6 outputs on a 6channel out into crossed over stereo pairs (sub, rear, front mb, front mr, front hi, center).

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by bobdole369

2 really small computers perhaps?



With Dolby certified boards - TA, EQ, TC are in teh software and done in the sound card. Lots of ways to do it in the player software too. It's a big deal and it works.

I'd really like to find a way (I'm sure it exists, probably costs) to turn all 6 outputs on a 6channel out into crossed over stereo pairs (sub, rear, front mb, front mr, front hi, center).

I mean that seems to be the better method. With two carputers there is no need to worry about upgrading any video card, there is more heatsink, I can use one hardrive to store and keep the processor computer hardrive empty and easy to handle, I won't run out of USBs, memory etc.

I'm not dead set on running two computers but build me one that can run all this gear on a XP 32 bit with a PCI audio card and dual screen.

Here's how I plan to use a 7.1 card with Asio capablity to run 4 way stereo:

ASIO VST Plug-in Audio Tuning Method - MP3Car.com Wiki

[falkenbd]

I'd say try 1 computer, see how it turns out.

You could always run 2 computers [later] and a KVM switch - (since you don't always need to look at both of them)

[cvjoint]

Ok, let's say I want to run one carputer only. I need a small form motherboard that outputs two VGAs and has a PCI connection. The two VGAs have to be able to display two different sources at the same time 100% of the time. The PCI seems to be the only way to get a bitchin 8 channel out card with ASIO compatibility. Mini-Itx size is where I'm looking at to start.

The problem as I see it from browsing tonight is that I can't find such a board. These Mini-Itx boards too often have the PCIe vs. the PCI that I need. Furthermore even with a DVI to VGA adapter it's not quaranteed to run dual source. I found one board with dual VGA and PCI though an extension port but the board only offered 1gb of memory, then I found a board that would run 3gb of memory and dual screen but didn't have PCI lol

[bobdole369]

Ok, let's say I want to run one carputer only. I need a small form motherboard that outputs two VGAs and has a PCI connection. The two VGAs have to be able to display two different sources at the same time 100% of the time. The PCI seems to be the only way to get a bitchin 8 channel out card with ASIO compatibility. Mini-Itx size is where I'm looking at to start.

The problem as I see it from browsing tonight is that I can't find such a board. These Mini-Itx boards too often have the PCIe vs. the PCI that I need. Furthermore even with a DVI to VGA adapter it's not quaranteed to run dual source. I found one board with dual VGA and PCI though an extension port but the board only offered 1gb of memory, then I found a board that would run 3gb of memory and dual screen but didn't have PCI lol

Madman Audio

ESI GIGAPORT-HD USB 8 Channel Audio Interface -  USB Audio Interfaces- Audio Interfaces / Recording Systems- Studio & Recording- PSSL.com

At a glance I can't tell if it is supported by that particular software you mention. The mp3car idea seems to be EXACTLY what I'm looking to do. So I guess the ASIO stuff is the way to go.

If you weren't intent on chucking the perfectly good high quality HD audio sound - there are a lot more options available as far as software.

Lots of Mini-ITX's have very nice onboard geforce graphics perfectly capable of playing hardware accellerated video.

The two VGAs have to be able to display two different sources at the same time 100% of the time

Absolutely no problem with onboard video doing this. Some support 3 outputs. Set the display once in windows and it keeps working.

build me one that can run all this gear on a XP 32 bit with a PCI audio card

Again I ask "Why?" if its just to run that particular software, than you give up a cpu that is the size of a dictionary - and gain one 3 times as big, just to fit the audio card. If thats OK than fine. You have a lot more options.

[cvjoint]

Originally Posted by bobdole369

Madman Audio

ESI GIGAPORT-HD USB 8 Channel Audio Interface*-* USB Audio Interfaces- Audio Interfaces / Recording Systems- Studio & Recording- PSSL.com

At a glance I can't tell if it is supported by that particular software you mention. The mp3car idea seems to be EXACTLY what I'm looking to do. So I guess the ASIO stuff is the way to go.

If you weren't intent on chucking the perfectly good high quality HD audio sound - there are a lot more options available as far as software.

Lots of Mini-ITX's have very nice onboard geforce graphics perfectly capable of playing hardware accellerated video.



Absolutely no problem with onboard video doing this. Some support 3 outputs. Set the display once in windows and it keeps working.



Again I ask "Why?" if its just to run that particular software, than you give up a cpu that is the size of a dictionary - and gain one 3 times as big, just to fit the audio card. If thats OK than fine. You have a lot more options.

Both those cards are Asio compatible so that is great. Those cards are obviously not PCI. With usb you tend to pay a bit more and then you have to convert all those power supplies and in the first case all those 1/4 plugs to RCA. For the price of the first audio card I can assemble a second motherboard. The PCI cards I looked at can do a heck of a lot more too, the built in DACs are better quality, more in/outs digital and analog, sometimes offer preamps for the mic, and in the Audiotrak card all DACS are swappable. USBs connections are are also rather filled with two touch screens, volume knob, Hondata etc. Would I even be able to get dual video dual source and both touchscreens working?

I had to create a double boot mode on my Vista 64 bit to have XP 32bit partitioned on the harddrive. There is a whole lot of software such as my WinMls that are essential to the build that are not Vista compatible.

Looking at M-Audio's website the Delta 1010lt costs $200 less than the USB counterpart fasttrack ultra. Also consider these USB units take space outside the case, it is a separate unit just like a second motherboard would be!

To update the requirements on the single motherboard carputer:
Mini-Itx motherboard
PCI connection
Dual VGA output, dual source (VGA, DVI ok too)
8 USBs
3gb memory to be compatible with XP 32 bit

USB audio cards will likely cost too much to make the single carputer cheaper at all, and it's also just as cumbersome as a second carputer taking up space and requiring a power supply modification. Same goes for USB video cards. The realistic approach is to find a motherboard that can do the dual screen with the built in Video card so I can use the PCI for audio, and the USBs for the other peripherals.

[bobdole369]

Dammit, lost the reply, was very, very long..

Anyhoo:

Newegg parts:

Shuttle SG31G2 - $195 Has regular PCI and PCIe x16 for video cards.

Intel Core2Quad Q8400 $185 (low end core2quad)

4GB Mushkin DDR2-800 (cheapest 1.8v memory right now) $43

OCZ solid-state disk drive 30GB $100

640GB external USB drive $90

Windows XP $135

dvd $43

[bobdole369]

Others:

Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 $95

You are at $900ish maybe some more for shipping for the PC.



750W inverter $255 or so. Just googled one up and I trust and use tripplite.


Powered USB hub adds 6 ports to give you 9 total $17

So I didn't look up screens, but I don't see any big issue with what you want to do other than the touchscreen, and you are looking at about $1300 total.

The equipment involved looks to be about the size of a multifunction printer or small laser printer. It won't fit in the glovebox or under a seat like say some of the mini-box stuff, but comfortably in a trunk or hatch.

[coronamike]

my 2 cents.

I have been using this to power my CarPC for the last 2 years. It takes the place of the power supply, no inverter needed. I have the PC set to hibernate so it goes down quickly when I turn the car off and comes up in 15-20 seconds from the time I turn the ignition on.

OPUS SOLUTIONS - Leader in Vehicle Computers and Mobile DC-DC Power Supplies

My CarPC is similar to the shuttle, SFF with PCI and PCIe slot, but different configuration.

I am using this audio card,

E-MU Systems - 0404 PCI - PCI Digital Audio System

The Asus Xonar cards are very popular right now too.

Newegg.com - ASUS Xonar D2 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz PCI Interface Ultra Fidelity Sound Card with Complete Dolby/DTS Sound Technologies - Sound Cards

I am using a video card (forgot the brand) with dual monitor support (just using one monitor at this time)

The rest of the parts are:
AMD939 Dual Core processor
1gb of memory
160gb Hard Drive (IDE)
8 USB Connections on the Motherboard
Dynamix 8" widescreen touchscreen (powered by the opus)

My footprint is 8Wx12Lx6H and it sits in the trunk.

It's been through 2 110+ degree summers with no problems. I have not attempted to do what you are trying but it sounds do-able with a similar configuration. I thought about a mini-itx pc but I found this offers me more flexibility with a slightly larger footprint. IMO a PCI slot is a must if you want good sound from a CarPC.