JBL's MS-8 processor!

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Originally Posted by ibanzil

When using imprint there was a way to open up the files audyssey used when calibrating the system. Will there be any way to see what the MS-8 did as far as adjustments to TA, eq, and such?

Nope, at least not yet. Originally we were thinking about making that part of the code update downloader, but in the interest of getting the project finished, we scrapped that. I thought it would be cool to have a way for users to upload the files to JBL.com so we could provide a view of what had been done through some online tool and so we'd be able to help troubleshoot if necessary and collect data about cars. All of that is a pretty big piece of work and I haven't had time to make a business case for the investment in time that would require.

Troubleshooting is turning out to be really easy, so far. For the 10 or 12 cars that have MS-8's currently, there have only been a couple of questions like, "Hmmm...the midrange sounds strange", but a 5 minute conversation about the speaker system, a suggestion or two and an another round of acoustic calibration (a 5 minute process) has fixed all of those quickly.

For example, one of our guys has a Dodge Durango witih the OE alpine system. He had plans for an additional sub, since the factory sub is a little 8" in the back somewhere. He decided that to get started, he'd just put in the MS-8 and do the sub later. He called and said the midrange sounded strange and wasn't super happy with it and I asked if the tweeters in the front were actually tweeters or if they were those standard Dodge 2" high frequency speakers. Who knows? Anyway, the grille was too big for a tweeter and the mids are in the bottom of the doors. He had the crossover set at about 4k, so we moved it down to about 1k to take the mid out of the response before it started to beam and before the first big peak in the response (happens with all cone drivers). 10 minutes later everything was fixed and he's completely happy without adding an additional sub. Must have been 2" drivers...


I guess my point is that if there are so few people who can be successful in making their car sound great using basic audio tools and an RTA, what's the benefit in a print out of some complex series of impulse responses, except to take the techno-babble to a much higher level and expose our I.P to the public? If you want to know what MS-8 did and you have a PC based analyzer, there is a way to connect the analyzer to the input and output of the MS-8 to make a measurement of each of the output channels. In order to understand completely what's going on, especially for any system that includes "fixing" an OE head unit, each part of the process would have to be separated and displayed. When you set up MS-8, it'll be apparent that the process is a series of steps that have to be performed in a specific order. Correction filters for each step aren't saved in memory, but the correction for the end of each separate series is.

If you're technically astute enough to decipher the data, then you're technically astute enough to figure out how to make those measurments with any analyzer that does FFT and IFFT. A careful read of the manual and some careful thinking about the setup process will make that obvious.

Here's a challenge. The first person who figures out how to measure this using an audio analyzer wins a free pair of JBL 660 GTi components--on me. Send the documentation to me, be sure to send the data as screen shots or text files with an explanation of what you think is going on and tell me the equipment you used to make the measurements. Adam and I will look over it and determine whether you're a winner. I'd love to give away a set of these speakers and will give some serious benefit of the doubt in order to give them away.

What I mean is, get close enough and we'll send the speakers. I'm not looking for a loophole to prevent me from sending $2000 dollars worth of speakers--I'm not your health insurance company.

Oh, one more thing. Submissions have to be kept strictly confidential.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

What I mean is, get close enough and we'll send the speakers. I'm not looking for a loophole to prevent me from sending $2000 dollars worth of speakers--I'm not your health insurance company.

^^ classic

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

[cajunner]

wow, Andy.

nice offer, I hope somebody here has the chops and gets the bonus.

If I'm understanding this correctly, you want someone to decipher each processing mode the MS-8 undertakes by using RTA measurement gear?

seems easy enough, someone "astute enough" probably could do it from the manual....

or not...

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Show me what the unit does to the signal for each of the output channels you're using and include what happens to the input signal too and you win a pair of the world's best car speakers. Think of this as a science experiment. You have to show your work or explain it and it has to be presented privately and not as a group effort for all to see on this forum.

Have a GTG in someone's back yard, figure it out together and appoint someone to be the presenter.

I'm not giving hints.

Oh, don't bother with Logic7. That'll be too difficult to decipher with the tools you'll have. Plus, I think I've explained it sufficiently here.

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Lycan must not be awake yet. This is right up his alley.

[rain27]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

Show me what the unit does to the signal for each of the output channels you're using and include what happens to the input signal too and you win a pair of the world's best car speakers. Think of this as a science experiment. You have to show your work or explain it and it has to be presented privately and not as a group effort for all to see on this forum.

Have a GTG in someone's back yard, figure it out together and appoint someone to be the presenter.

I'm not giving hints.

Oh, don't bother with Logic7. That'll be too difficult to decipher with the tools you'll have. Plus, I think I've explained it sufficiently here.

Andy,
Did you play a part in creating the 660gti's? If they are the world's best, I must try a pair!

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Well, I didn't do the engineering, we have real engineers for that. I helped to set the performance targets and to explain why we need what we need in a car and they did the rest. Then I wrote the manual so the eight people in the world who are inclined to read something like that will know why we did what we did.

[62Lincoln]

Hi Andy, I sent you an email as a followup to my question about BMW's Enhanced Premium Sound system, and also included a question about our Toyota. Did the email make it to you, or do I need to resend? Thank you for your help!

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

Lycan must not be awake yet. This is right up his alley.

now you've done it ... the gauntlet has been thrown down !!

I'll say this with all the humility i can muster ... i've forgotten more about signal processing than most PhD's will ever know Masters from the tute in cambridge (learned from Oppenheim, the man himself) ; taught graduate-level courses on digital signal processing ; invented new ways to digitally interpolate audio signals with minimal computation, compress wavetable synthesizers, model delta-sigma quantizers, etc. ; yada yada yada. Hell, analog electronics ... a field in which i've got about eighty issued patents ... is a mere hobby in comparison

SO ... you're gonna have to sweeten the pot a bit my friend After all, I've already got a couple pairs of 660GTi's (yes, they really are great speakers).

Here's my proposal : If i can figure out what the MS8 does ... with nothing but an oscilloscope and hand calculator (i do convolution in my sleep) ... will you release full schematics and source code to the public?

OPEN SOURCE bay-bay!

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Originally Posted by lycan

now you've done it ... the gauntlet has been thrown down !!


Here's my proposal : If i can figure out what the MS8 does ... with nothing but an oscilloscope and hand calculator (i do convolution in my sleep) ... will you release full schematics and source code to the public?

OPEN SOURCE bay-bay!

No, but I'll buy you a beer.

Issuing this challenge to you is like asking Wilt Chamberlain if he can reach the salt on the second shelf.

[michaelsil1]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

No, but I'll buy you a beer.

Issuing this challenge to you is like asking Wilt Chamberlain if he can reach the salt on the second shelf.

He said he would only use an oscilloscope and hand calculator.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

No, but I'll buy you a beer.

Issuing this challenge to you is like asking Wilt Chamberlain if he can reach the salt on the second shelf.

If the beer is down here in Austin, you might just have a deal

The hell with the challenge ... when ya visiting Austin again?

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Hey Lycan,
I don't make it to Austin much anymore. My kids have moved, but the next time I come to see my mom, I'll buy you a beer as an incentive NOT to use a pickle and an abacus to figure out what MS-8 does.

[michaelsil1]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

Hey Lycan,
I'll buy you a beer as an incentive NOT to use a pickle and an abacus to figure out what MS-8 does.

That's funny.

[quality_sound]

Andy,

In the last 12 hours you've posted at least four VERY siq worthy quotes. You're my hero.

[n_olympios]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

No, but I'll buy you a beer.

Issuing this challenge to you is like asking Wilt Chamberlain if he can reach the salt on the second shelf.

Considering he's been dead for 10+ years, I take it it's very difficult to do whatever the hell it is you guys were talking about.

[BigRed]

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

Andy, if I'm running a true 5.1 disc, should I just force it to 2 channel and let the MS-8 do its thing?

[Andy Wehmeyer]

I'm not giving any additional hints for the challenge.

red,
If your question is about using MS-8 with discreet sources, yes. Choose the 2-channel downmix from the DVD. L7 will decode it.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer

I'm not giving any additional hints for the challenge.

red,
If your question is about using MS-8 with discreet sources, yes. Choose the 2-channel downmix from the DVD. L7 will decode it.

thank you sir

[t3sn4f2]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Hey Andy, I have yet another DIY digital input mod question.

I found this little device that could make the digital input concerns you mentioned in the initial MS-8 post a none issue.

MiniDSP - miniDIGI
Data Sheet
Manual

What do you think?

Bump?

[Andy Wehmeyer]

Originally Posted by t3sn4f2

Bump?

It'll never be a non-issue, but if you're simply looking to send a stereo PCM signal to MS-8, this looks like it would convert 44.1 to 48k, which is what MS-8 has to have.

I can't imagine what the benefit could possibly be of sending a digital signal through a sample rate convertor and then into MS-8 over using an analog signal and having MS-8 convert it. Well--except for the possibility of engine noise, but we haven't had any trouble with that no matter whether we've used speaker or line level in.

You cannot convert a DVD signal, a MOST signal, or anything else that includes a multi-channel stream or that includes an "embedded" control signal with this Mini DSP.

[thehatedguy]

Damn it Jeff.

I dunno what else to say.

Originally Posted by lycan

now you've done it ... the gauntlet has been thrown down !!

I'll say this with all the humility i can muster ... i've forgotten more about signal processing than most PhD's will ever know Masters from the tute in cambridge (learned from Oppenheim, the man himself) ; taught graduate-level courses on digital signal processing ; invented new ways to digitally interpolate audio signals with minimal computation, compress wavetable synthesizers, model delta-sigma quantizers, etc. ; yada yada yada. Hell, analog electronics ... a field in which i've got about eighty issued patents ... is a mere hobby in comparison

SO ... you're gonna have to sweeten the pot a bit my friend After all, I've already got a couple pairs of 660GTi's (yes, they really are great speakers).

Here's my proposal : If i can figure out what the MS8 does ... with nothing but an oscilloscope and hand calculator (i do convolution in my sleep) ... will you release full schematics and source code to the public?

OPEN SOURCE bay-bay!

[rain27]

Andy,

I'm thinking of going with a Mac Mini rather than a traditional head unit. Could you let me know the best way to connect the Mac Mini to the MS-8?

I've heard people say to connect them via an optical connection, but the MS-8 does not have a digital input, so I'm not sure how that would be possible.

Any ideas?

[Andy Wehmeyer]

I'd use this:

Applied Research & Technology: ARTcessories™

That's about as simple and cheap as it can possibly be. This little thing works great.

[M3NTAL]

There are plenty of USB DAC's that run off of the USB power. Or plenty of other dac's to chose from since you are already running an 120v inverter.