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DIY vibration damper/CLD tiles: for real this time?

18K views 41 replies 9 participants last post by  Rudeboy 
#1 ·


Material:
28 gauge sheet metal (free for me)
3M super 77 adhesive ($10)
Nashua Butyl flashing tape ($20)
Sheet metal snips
Razor knife
Tape measure



I'm a sheet metal mechanic by trade so I can get all the scrap metal I need. So $30 will make me about 10 ft^2 of damper. I'm sure that the butyl flashing can be bought cheaper too.
 
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#2 ·
super77 would not be the glue of choice. it's heat resistance is under 100F, something easily achievable in a car in the summer. possibly the foamfast74 would work but super77 and super90 would not hold up.
 
#3 ·
1. Cut sheet metal into 6" strips to match the width of the flashing tape (I did 6"x3')


2. Cut 4 or 5 strips of Butyl tape to the same length as the sheet metal.

3. Apply 3M adhesive to the front side of one strip of tape and the sheet metal. Wait 30 sec to 1 minute.

4.Carefully lay the butyl on the sheet metal. Make sure to line the edges up neatly and don't make any crinkles or bubbles. I used a piece of wood to press down and smooth out each layer applied.

5. Pull of the protective plastic to reveal the sticky side of the butyl and carefully lay down the next layer (each layer must be sticky side up).

6. Repeat step 5 for as many layers as you choose (I did 4).
 
#9 ·
A. I had some of the materials laying around

B. Didn't feel like paying and waiting for shipping.

C. Curiosity. It's kind of an experiment.

Everything I've read about deadening states that the closer the metal layer is to the actual thickness of the door metal the better it will work. So I made some and to be honest, so far I'm very impressed with how little it takes to deaden the door. I just put roughly 1 square ft on the outside door skin and rapped it with a screw driver handle and it's as dead as roach on Raid.

The only concern I have now is making sure I use the best adhesive available to me.
 
#13 ·
Not a whole lot more to say about it. Here's the finished door treatment.


The one door took 3 ft^2 of deadener. It did the trick. The only rattles or vibrations I'm hear are from the rods that connect the latch and locks and that has nothing to do with deadener.
 
#18 ·
My guess is that you'd get the same result without the butyl tape - you'd just end up with a slightly higher resonant frequency for the panel because of the slightly lower mass without it. "Butyl" covers a wide range of formulations. Flashing tape is designed for weatherproofing, not vibration damping. This would be a very good treatment for an SPL application, again without the superfluous butyl layer, since what you are really doing is stiffening the panel. Even if you had a vibration damping butyl layer, the contact adhesive will interfere with its interaction with the constraining layer.

Still, very close to a good SPL treatment. The butyl may or may not hurt its performance in that application, but it does provide a way to break the bond if you need to remove it for body work. You'll also want to be sure to only apply this to perfectly planar surfaces or to pre-shape the steel to exactly fit the contours of the surface to be treated. Even though matching the constraining layer to the substrate is the theoretical ideal, any tension in the constraining layer will pull against the butyl and cause it to peel itself off.
 
#19 ·
Thank you for the constructive criticism. I was treating this door for a pair of 6x9s to be used as dedicated midbass. Do you think 300 hz or so would stay below resonant frequency of this application?

Is it just the adhesive that changes the properties of the butyl between my DIY stuff and the professional stuff?
 
#21 ·
Mad respect goes out to you and your expertise on this subject, I'm honored that you would even post in this thread.

Although, I did do a little testing before the first square Inch of this stuff was uses in my ride.

The first test is done on your site. I took a 3 gal tin bucket (the kind you pop fireworks under cause it's so loud) and stuck a piece approximately 3"x5" to the bottom (about 25% coverage). When I hit the bottom of the bucket with a screw driver handle I received little to no resonance. It sounded like there was two pounds of sand in the bucket. So this stuff must be portraying the characteristics of a CLD right? Or is that just marketing?

I even set the bucket over a BBQ grill to see how hot it would have to get before I lost adhesion. Did pretty good here too!
 
#24 ·
Awesome!

I've been using peel and seal myself on my last couple cars.(I'm a cheap ass) And have had some prett decent results.

Adding the sheet metal is an awesome idea to add density. Have you tried it at all without the sheetmetal?
 
#26 ·
Ok, for the few who took note of this thread. After having the DIY deadener in my truck for a week, Nineball was right. After a few hot days the metal started to peal away just slightly. So for long term adhesion super 77 is out.

I'm gonna try another product with a better temp rating.

I'm also gonna purchase some CLD tiles and deaden the passenger door with that so I can compare the performance.

Stay tuned...
 
#27 ·
props to you fricasseekid , and props to the sellers of the best quality for best price car sound improving materials, who have been down this same road. I have always been a user of alternatives to everything, in some cases the alternatives end up testing better then the original -probably due to the fact the the maker of the alternative cares more about the application being perfect, over the original makers idea of (wow) this can make money and give up on perfecting. A few thing i learned in many trials and errors is that the cost of labor and materials of the trial and error, can most times cost more than the product already being sold by the time you finish. There is also the possibility that after testing it has poorer results.

So with all this in mind why have i not seen hard evidence or testing of 2 of the same cars 1 with sellers product and 1 with numerous compareable materials or incompareable showing real data measurements on why 1 product is usable/better than others (spl meter of road noise traveled same road, at same speed, with same car, and new same tires)easy enough. = I have to ask - Is this info availabe anywhere or Are sellers not revealing the testing due to other construction grades actually working and holding up over time.
I know if i had a product that was developed through testing and i could show that my product only cost x amount more but was x amount better i would at least show the end results/perfomance over the other. Still to this day, every discussion- never shows proof of one type of material failing and the other succeeding, it is always this " x type fails and y type doesnt, x type works due to this science and y type doesnt. Then sound clips of how it works , but not compared to another type, just a before and after, hell the sound clip could be anything inculding holding a towel over the mic . I want hard evidence PLEASE.\]

Someday if i ever get around to this project..... before i make any purchase i need to see true testing results...... maybe ill purchase 2 of the same vehicles and start the testing myself......... after testing i hope to find comparable materials if not= 2 vehicle could be very pricey compared to just buying the auto specific brands and excepting that it is better because they say so:D

I have stared some research here: (cant post links):mean:
 
#28 ·
Out of car experiments are better than the two identical car idea. In the first place, you'd need new cars to eliminate wear variations and it would still be very hard to control. The demonstration you are talking about was never meant to show anything more than what 25% coverage accomplishes. If you think that basic demonstration was fraudulent, why would you believe that anything else wasn't.

I learned a few things about how people react after 4 years of testing these products and publishing the results. Partisans will use any excuse to attack the results. Heat the materials to simulate aging and you hear: "My car will never be exposed to 350°." Dissolve the adhesive in a solvent to see how it comes apart and it's: "My car will never be submerged in mineral spirits". Treat two identical vehicles and it will be pointed out (correctly) that it's impossible to control climate and exact tire placement on the road.

When I decided to take what I had learned during those years of testing and create my own products, many people accused me of taking down the comparison tests because mine had done poorly -as if there is some Internet oversight panel that would have stopped me from making false claims, if I was inclined to do that.

In reality, vibration damping plays a relatively small role in noise reduction. You also need a lot less of it than most people believe. You want something that works and you should want something that will last the life of the car. Pretty much as simple as that. The OP did an interesting experiment that may work and may meet the durability requirement with modification. I think that's great. It also doesn't have anything to do with substituting construction products for purpose built vibration damper.

Despite your misgivings about the 25% coverage demonstration, it does show a very simple test that anybody can do. Use two identical pieces of sheet metal, apply flashing tape to one and a purpose built vibration damper to the other - not flashing tape being sold as "sound deadener". Hit them with sticks. The difference is so extreme and the experiment is so simple that anybody can do it and see/hear the difference. If I did this, people would claim that it was fixed. If people do it for themselves, well - not sure who they will blame. I've been encouraging people to do this for several years. As far as I know, no one has. I've been more than happy to put my credibility on the line with this but so far, people seem to prefer to take shots over actually trying a very simple test themselves.
 
#29 ·
I tried it. I used half a square foot of SDS CLD on my outer door skin (passenger side) and tried the tap test. I also put half a square foot of my homemade product on the driver side outer door skin and tried the tap test.

Results: both doors wear dead as door nail and I could not tell a difference.

The only reason I haven't posted this yet is because I want to put real CLD on the passenger inner door skin as well so I can compare two completely deadened doors with music playing and because the tapping test is not the end all and be all of sound deadening tests.


@ Rudeboy

You never responded about what you thought I would benefit by using what is supposedly (sorry, I'm always the skeptic) an inferior constraining layer but a thicker sheet metal. Everything I've read says the ideal damper would have a sheet metal the same thickness as the metal being dampened, well 28 gauge is pretty close. You think this is why I'm getting such good results?
 
#38 ·
@ Rudeboy

You never responded about what you thought I would benefit by using what is supposedly (sorry, I'm always the skeptic) an inferior constraining layer but a thicker sheet metal. Everything I've read says the ideal damper would have a sheet metal the same thickness as the metal being dampened, well 28 gauge is pretty close. You think this is why I'm getting such good results?
The only advantages of thinner, lower tensile strength constraining layers are ease of use and cost. It's a little more complicated than that though. There really aren't any sheet metal panels in a vehicle that are completely planar. Unless a thicker and stronger constraining layer is is preformed to fit the curve exactly, it's going to pull itself off. You could use a stronger adhesive but would then be compromising it's damping characteristics. In terms of performance, a 28 gauge constraining layer with a proper damping adhesive, pre-shaped to follow the contours of the panel will outperform the same adhesive with a weaker constraining layer. That may all be theoretical though. If you can accomplish all that needs to be accomplished with the thinner, easier to work with and less expensive constraining layer, there isn't much point in taking it any further.
 
#32 ·
On another note over the years some have learned how Partisans will use any excuse to attack the results. I have learned over the years that some simple minded will think some posts are geared towards a certain person and person only.

I have also learned that some simple minded will post many things before thay read/think of the whole picture. So I should probably add that I do work in the construction industry and have access to multiple types/brands of materials that i believe will test as well as car specific materials.
I am up for accumulating these materials construction and car specific and putting them through some testing, i must say it will take time so don't expect overnight results, im sure those that have done this know how long it can take.
- any suggestions on the correct way of testing, it seems my ideas of testing are not adequate.

Last thing for any of the simple minded readers, just because I said I work in the construction industry does not mean: I work with tools installing things I purchase from homedepot,lowes,or hardware stores. There are many levels of construction and many types/brands of materials
 
#34 ·
some examples of construction carreera ( engineers, project exec, project manager,field supervisor, inspectors,architects,)- Trades(electrician/carpenter,laborer,plumber,pipe fitter, glazier, sprinkler fitters,)

then there are many examples of materials way to many to list : there are over hundreds of types of adhesives sprays,roll on- double/single sided tapes -butyl rolls,rods,tapes -closed cell foam pads, rolls,rods- light gauge metals sheets,rolls- open cell foam pads, rods, rolls, sheets i could go on all day. Not only are there different types for different applications but there are multiple makers of each different type.
 
#35 ·
oh and some examples of construction project types (1,000 square ft wood construction single family home , 600,000 sq ft 60 floor aluminum/steel/glass highrise, hospitals,schools,movie theaters, supermarkets,6 star hotels yes count em 6 i didnt think there was either,14 million condo's inside 6 star hotels ( google : mandarin oriental).
I wonder what type of sound related materials are used in a 6 star hotel that has multiple 14 million dollar condo's on the upper floors. Geez i wonder what the whole hotel project itself cost to build.

I know none of this matters im just ranting and raving trying to get my post count up so i can start posting links to these materials
 
#36 ·
Lol

Let's not derail this thread too much here, ok?

But I am of the same mindset as you. Products that are marketed for auto and specifically auto audio, have a significant mark-up. And even though companies like SDS and Second Skin do a great job making these products more affordable they are still comprised of many common industrial materials and there are many common industrial materials that may or may not exhibit the same characteristics.

One such material that I have never seen anyone use but would have numerous application is cork insulation tape, or "press tight" as we refer to it in the HVAC industry. This stuff could be used as a filler, an insulator, a mass loader, a decoupler, and it never gets hard like the plumber putty most people are fond of.

There are lots of option to be explored.
 
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