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Old 07-25-2011   #326
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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Originally Posted by Compressionfed View Post
Just received my 8''s (3). Haven't had a chance to play with them yet but they look well designed. I'm "making a comeback" after being out of car audio for almost 15 years. There sure wasn't anything like this 8'' back in the day. I guess the JL micro boxes would have been the option then?

Jim, I will be installing these in an E46 325 sedan in an enclosure suspended right under the rear deck, subs facing down.

1> I would like to keep the box as shallow as possible (6-7''), 36'' long, 14'' deep. Thats right under 2ft^3...will this work?

2> Could you give me an idea of port size/length (probably round as there doesn't seem to be much room for slotted) 350watts each, mostly R&B, Rock, some rap.

3> Really looking for some SQ that can play some lower notes.

Thanks for the help and congrats on some BAD-ASS products!
My quick math using 3/4" wood puts that box at 1.4ft internal ... less 0.15 from the subs ... leaves 1.25cubes. So the box is a bit small .. but nothing we can't work with (I've done them in <0.3 ported and they still sound great, problem is the vent gets super long). I'd keep the tune around or below 35Hz. If you've got a parametric EQ or any processing, I'd tune even lower, closer to 30Hz to add some extension and then just put back in some extra kick at 50-60 with some boost to your liking.

Dual 3" ports (which is the bare min on port size here, and accounting for displacement of the port) would be ~28" long. Think you could fit that into the box? This is a really small box for 3 ported 8s though, but it'll be fun to have a stealth box like this that just hammers

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Old 07-26-2011   #327
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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Originally Posted by jim walter View Post
My quick math using 3/4" wood puts that box at 1.4ft internal ... less 0.15 from the subs ... leaves 1.25cubes. So the box is a bit small .. but nothing we can't work with (I've done them in <0.3 ported and they still sound great, problem is the vent gets super long). I'd keep the tune around or below 35Hz. If you've got a parametric EQ or any processing, I'd tune even lower, closer to 30Hz to add some extension and then just put back in some extra kick at 50-60 with some boost to your liking.

Dual 3" ports (which is the bare min on port size here, and accounting for displacement of the port) would be ~28" long. Think you could fit that into the box? This is a really small box for 3 ported 8s though, but it'll be fun to have a stealth box like this that just hammers
Jim, sorry for the confusion, the dimensions I gave you were in fact internal. How would this change your opinion?

Again, thanks for your valuable time!
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Old 07-26-2011   #328
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

Well .. that's a good thing, makes it a bit easier to build. Dual 3" ports end up around 16" long in that case. Triple 3" moves up to 25"

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Old 07-26-2011   #329
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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Well .. that's a good thing, makes it a bit easier to build. Dual 3" ports end up around 16" long in that case. Triple 3" moves up to 25"
Thank you good sir, off to the drawing board!
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Old 07-26-2011   #330
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

I have a couple questions about the 843d. I currently have one and I love it. I'm planning on getting a second one; however, I have some questions about this driver's use in IB.

From what I gathered from going through this thread, the sub does well in an IB configuration and the thing to do would be wire only one of the voice coils to raise the QTS to around 1.

Is this correct? I modeled it in WinISD in IB with a qts of 1 and the graph looks great.

The only thing is, when wiring only one of the voice coils, the power handling of the sub is cut in half. So how much power could the sub handle? The problem would be if I used my Srx 1d to power both of them, the SWR-843d's (with only one voice coil wired) wired in parallel would be a 2 ohm load and they would be getting 850 watts @ 2ohms. Would that be too much for them?

Also since they are dual voice coil, would wiring only one of the voice coils cause any problems in the short/long term?

TIA
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Old 07-26-2011   #331
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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Originally Posted by GouRiki View Post
I have a couple questions about the 843d. I currently have one and I love it. I'm planning on getting a second one; however, I have some questions about this driver's use in IB.

From what I gathered from going through this thread, the sub does well in an IB configuration and the thing to do would be wire only one of the voice coils to raise the QTS to around 1.

Is this correct? I modeled it in WinISD in IB with a qts of 1 and the graph looks great.

The only thing is, when wiring only one of the voice coils, the power handling of the sub is cut in half. So how much power could the sub handle? The problem would be if I used my Srx 1d to power both of them, the SWR-843d's (with only one voice coil wired) wired in parallel would be a 2 ohm load and they would be getting 850 watts @ 2ohms. Would that be too much for them?

Also since they are dual voice coil, would wiring only one of the voice coils cause any problems in the short/long term?

TIA
300RMS for both would pushing it IMO

Kelvin

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Old 07-27-2011   #332
 
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Power handling isn't that greatly reduced...for a few reasons.
1. The overall sensitivity is lower, so the mechanical power handling increases since it takes more power to move as far, but since your in IB the box no longer limits the excursion so it's a bit of a wash.
2. The overall thermal mass and radiating surface area of the coil itself remains constant. Remember, a DVC sub is would over the top of itself, so the coil shares the heat pretty well with all of the coil mass even if one is shorted or open. Again, about a wash.

In IB, I tried the pair with 600rms and then 1200. I could beat on it pretty good with the 600 without worrying, but at 1200 I could break things if I wanted to. Still, the suspension is pretty robust and your ears will tell you when to back off before you Hirt anything.

Jim

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Old 07-27-2011   #333
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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Originally Posted by jim walter View Post
Power handling isn't that greatly reduced...for a few reasons.
1. The overall sensitivity is lower, so the mechanical power handling increases since it takes more power to move as far, but since your in IB the box no longer limits the excursion so it's a bit of a wash.
2. The overall thermal mass and radiating surface area of the coil itself remains constant. Remember, a DVC sub is would over the top of itself, so the coil shares the heat pretty well with all of the coil mass even if one is shorted or open. Again, about a wash.

In IB, I tried the pair with 600rms and then 1200. I could beat on it pretty good with the 600 without worrying, but at 1200 I could break things if I wanted to. Still, the suspension is pretty robust and your ears will tell you when to back off before you Hirt anything.

Jim
You'd need a subsonic filter then coz when I modelled the Dual 4 with a Qts of 1 in a 4.5cuft box (a pair of 8" in 9cuft trunk), I get overexcursion around 32Hz with as little as 60 watts.
Unless I did not do something right...

Kelvin

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I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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Old 07-27-2011   #334
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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Originally Posted by jim walter View Post
Power handling isn't that greatly reduced...for a few reasons.
1. The overall sensitivity is lower, so the mechanical power handling increases since it takes more power to move as far, but since your in IB the box no longer limits the excursion so it's a bit of a wash.
2. The overall thermal mass and radiating surface area of the coil itself remains constant. Remember, a DVC sub is would over the top of itself, so the coil shares the heat pretty well with all of the coil mass even if one is shorted or open. Again, about a wash.

In IB, I tried the pair with 600rms and then 1200. I could beat on it pretty good with the 600 without worrying, but at 1200 I could break things if I wanted to. Still, the suspension is pretty robust and your ears will tell you when to back off before you Hirt anything.

Jim

Thanks Jim, I will try it out.

I plan on running them from ~50-250hz, somewhere in there. I will figure it out once it happens. The 843d I have now is playing up to 200hz and it is doing great.
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Old 07-27-2011   #335
 
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Originally Posted by subwoofery View Post
You'd need a subsonic filter then coz when I modelled the Dual 4 with a Qts of 1 in a 4.5cuft box (a pair of 8" in 9cuft trunk), I get overexcursion around 32Hz with as little as 60 watts.
Unless I did not do something right...

Kelvin
One big thing that nearly everyone ignores, dynamics. That the compliance and motor force are not constant numbers. The compliance will be about 7x greater at 20mm while the BL will have dropped off to near 0.

All the models in the world can tell us what may happen or what it should sound like, but these models just about jump off of a bridge as soon as we add that second watt

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Old 07-27-2011   #336
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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All the models in the world can tell us what may happen or what it should sound like, but these models just about jump off of a bridge as soon as we add that second watt
Correct, they depend upon an assumption that the speaker paramters are linear and for the most part invariant. If the design minimizes these variances then the model is much more accurate in predicting performance. If the design and implementation does yield large variation with applied power (which is a largely undesirable trait) then you are absolutely correct - the models suck - or is it the design - kind of a chicken and egg situation isn't it?
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Old 07-27-2011   #337
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Correct, they depend upon an assumption that the speaker paramters are linear and for the most part invariant. If the design minimizes these variances then the model is much more accurate in predicting performance. If the design and implementation does yield large variation with applied power (which is a largely undesirable trait) then you are absolutely correct - the models suck - or is it the design - kind of a chicken and egg situation isn't it?
To what aspect of modeling are you referring? I've done alot of box modeling and the transfer function has never changed on me, from 1 watt to 1500 watts. Isn't transfer function the main reason we model boxes? Not that excursion, port velocities, group delay, and the like aren't important...
Enlighten me please?
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Old 07-27-2011   #338
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

Aren't there supposed to be grilles for these? When are they coming out? Did not see anything on the Alpine web site.
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Old 07-27-2011   #339
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

I am looking at using 2 to put in the storage area in my 05 Tundra Double Cab (approximately 0.45 cu ft) powerd byt a PDX-5. Will this work?
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Old 07-28-2011   #340
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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Aren't there supposed to be grilles for these? When are they coming out? Did not see anything on the Alpine web site.
x2 -- Jim care to chime in on this? I have 4 of these lil' bugga's!
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Old 07-28-2011   #341
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

No grills...
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Old 07-28-2011   #342
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

Quote:
To what aspect of modeling are you referring? I've done alot of box modeling and the transfer function has never changed on me, from 1 watt to 1500 watts. Isn't transfer function the main reason we model boxes? Not that excursion, port velocities, group delay, and the like aren't important...
Enlighten me please?
You are absolutely correct in stating that "the transfer function has never changed on me, from 1 watt to 1500 watts" however it typically should change to better align with real world results (which is what Jim referred to). All other things being equal, the larger the deviation from the modeled response the worse a loudspeaker handles power while remaining in its linear operating range.
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Old 07-28-2011   #343
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

I have had my pair of SWR-823Ds in my center console .70 cubic foot enclosure for about a month now and feel like I can comment on how they sound. I have had woofers that include Oz Audio, JL 10w6v2s, Alumapro, Boston, and Orion. In my 2006 F-150 Supercrew I have had a pair of the Oz subs, a single JL 10w1 (I think) 3 old school JL 8w6's and a single Type-R 10 (old version). Enclosures have all been under the rear seats and run between .80 and 1.10 cubic feet.

These 8's are something else. I absolutely love them. Sound quality is just short of the 10w6v2's but much better than anything else I have had. I thought I might be losing out on a lot of the low end stuff with both subs sharing .70 cubic feet so I really wanted to try and port them but just wasn't sure if the box was big enough. To my surprise they are working down low just fine. I am getting more output with these two 8's than with any other configuration I have had in the truck. The only set up that I have had that bests these 8's are the pair of 10W6v2s that I had ported in my PT Cruiser years ago. Since the 8's are sealed up front they blend with the front stage better than any other set up. The 10W6v2s of course had more output but also seemed to play a bit smoother. I did have EQ on the JL's and the 8's do not. Once I can figure out what is wrong with my H700 I will have eq on the 8's and we will see if I can smooth them out some. This is really not even a big deal as the difference between them is very very small. The most impressive thing about these is the output. I am running them at 4 ohms and then parallel for a 2 ohm load at the amp. They are getting power from my Audison LRx 400.1 which is supposed to do somewhere in the 600 watt range at 2 ohms. They easily over power the Dyns on 100x2 from my McIntosh MC427. Even with the output levels that I am getting from them and the fact that they are literally firing straight up 2 feet away from my face it is hard to locate them with regular music. With the best SQ tune I can get it is still hard to locate them on most Hip Hop songs.
With that said my thanks to Alpine for building these little things and to Jim for convincing me to get them. I can’t help but to keep thinking, if I replace the entire center section of the console I may be able to get another .50 cubic feet. Man 4 of these in 1.2 cubic feet… Hmmmmm

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You are absolutely correct in stating that "the transfer function has never changed on me, from 1 watt to 1500 watts" however it typically should change to better align with real world results (which is what Jim referred to). All other things being equal, the larger the deviation from the modeled response the worse a loudspeaker handles power while remaining in its linear operating range.
So how does one predict how much a speaker set up is likely to deviate from a model? Or should I say, how does one know just how usefull a particular model is?
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Old 07-28-2011   #345
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

^^^^ Can definitely be done. I had an 04 F150 Supercab shortbox that I built a custom center console for. I had 4 re8's ported @ 34 Hz. IIRC the box was 2.5 cu ft gross. I built a custom fiberglass bracket that bolted to the old center console mounts. The box then sat on top of the bracket and bolted in place from the sides. Ports were rear firing and subs downfiring. I used a lot of fiberglass to give it lots of shape, so it didn't look too obvious. It was killer-- would have loved to run the SWR-823d's in that. I miss that truck.
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Old 07-30-2011   #346
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

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Aren't there supposed to be grilles for these? When are they coming out? Did not see anything on the Alpine web site.
Grills

We shipped out the first lot last week so they should be at your dealers any day now. If they haven't ordered any for their stock (or pre-order for you guys), give them a ring and they should be able to get them for you in less than a week.

Jim

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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

At the risk of sounding like a cheap bastard, why is the retail price of the grill $30? Seems awfully high for what it is.
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Old 08-03-2011   #348
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

I've been following this thread a lot but was wondering if anyone has any finished pics of using these in doors IB and can comment on how they sound? I'm currently trying to A/B a pair of 6w3v3's in the doors that will drop fit or if its worth remolding my door panel to fit the pair of 8's.

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Old 08-03-2011   #349
 
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

I mocked one of the 8's in a test box with wood and fiberglass (~.17cuft) and i was honestly surprised at how loud just one of them gets sealed! The only pr7oblem I had was it sometimes it consciously made me think the stage was farther back due to it being so close and vibrating.




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Old 08-03-2011   #350
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Default Re: Alpine SWR-823D / 843D 8" Subwoofers

Quote:
Originally Posted by jooonnn View Post
I've been following this thread a lot but was wondering if anyone has any finished pics of using these in doors IB and can comment on how they sound? I'm currently trying to A/B a pair of 6w3v3's in the doors that will drop fit or if its worth remolding my door panel to fit the pair of 8's.
Don't think you'll see many if any door mounted subwoofers.
Most hard core DIYers have a hard time getting rid of rattles with 8" midbasses... so a subwoofer IB in the door?

Try to search for an install with 8" Phase Linear Aliante
It's the only install I know that uses a subwoofer in the door HOWEVER they are not IB but sealed...

Kelvin

Lycan
Quote:
I'll repeat it for the miliionth time : All amps do NOT sound the same ... It's astonishing to me that nobody understands this
Who knows, some might understand now
and here's another one and another <-- click on the links
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