CD sound quality: no, since the head unit is only a transport when you have the MS-8 connected.
iPod USB Aux input - this might be up for debate as some people claim there can be a difference in sound quality between head units for this type of input. I don't have an iPod so I can't answer that from experience.
CD sound quality: no, since the head unit is only a transport when you have the MS-8 connected.
iPod USB Aux input - this might be up for debate as some people claim there can be a difference in sound quality between head units for this type of input. I don't have an iPod so I can't answer that from experience.
Well technically, the head unit is much more than a transport in this case. Only if he was taking a digital output from the head unit and sending into a digital input on a processor would it be just a CD transport.
The head unit however is doing digital to analog conversion, volume control, line driving, source selection between noisy sources, etc. Many things can affect the output quality into the MS-8. The only way to really know is to do a double blind comparison with the deck he wants or to do detailed measurements to see if anything pops up as audibly degrading (in his system particular setup).
IME, chances are high that the only thing that might be improved upon by upgrading is noise floor performance.
I'd have to disagree with you trumpet. I'm far from one of those that claim to be able to hear subtle differences in sound. I heard distinct differences in my setup when I had an avh4300, sh1000, 9887 and now a 80prs. The avh wasn't installed with with my current setup so ill leave that one out but I had it for a week and sold it at a loss if that says anything. Now onto the main 3, keep in mind all were used as transport systems only as all processing was done with my ms8.
The sh had a very sharp sound which I initially thought I was gonna like but after 5 minutes I would get headaches from it and it became piercing to my ears. No matter how much I wanted to like it no matter what I did the listening fatigue and headaches became unbearable. The 9887, instruments had more of a real natural sound to them. Now the 80, pioneer is known for its warm laid back sound and that's exactly how I would describe it. To me it didn't have the realism of the alpine but that wasn't a bad thing it still sounded very good in its own way. The 80 was the only one out of the group that I could play loud with out the sound changing for the worse. Guess that's due to the laid back sound.
Ill be the first to admit with most amps I'd be lying if I said one sounded different from the other but it hasn't been my experience with head units. There were very distinct sound differences between all 3 and could be picked out in seconds of hearing them. Its been my experience that head units have their own characteristics when it comes to sound. I've had five different units installed in the past 6 months and they all had their own sound.
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Head unit- Pioneer DEH 80prs Dsp- JBL Ms8 Amps -2 ppi p900.4
. Tweeters - Lpg26na Midrange - Tang band W3
. Mid Bass - Rs180 sub - 2 jl 10w6v2
I spend a great deal of my time with home theater systems, and while the home and the car are two totally different environments, different pieces of equipment including CD players & transports, pre-amplifiers, surround processors, amplifiers, and even the cables, have an affect on your sound. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be somewhat the same in a vehicle. Now, I'm not saying you need to go out and buy a full McIntosh setup to enjoy better sound (although you most undoubtedly would), but a higher end head unit will likely offer higher-quality internals like the D/A converter, etc. As far as which units have that is a question better answered by those who spend their time around car audio like I spend mine around home theater.
I spend a great deal of my time with home theater systems, and while the home and the car are two totally different environments, different pieces of equipment including CD players & transports, pre-amplifiers, surround processors, amplifiers, and even the cables, have an affect on your sound. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be somewhat the same in a vehicle. Now, I'm not saying you need to go out and buy a full McIntosh setup to enjoy better sound (although you most undoubtedly would), but a higher end head unit will likely offer higher-quality internals like the D/A converter, etc. As far as which units have that is a question better answered by those who spend their time around car audio like I spend mine around home theater.
...a higher end head unit will likely offer higher-quality internals like the D/A converter, etc.
This is where I was going when I said my opinion that the head unit isn't a major factor in sound quality when the processing is offloaded. I do realize people hear differences when changing head unit brands, but I've seen the proof that DACs are treated with far more mysticism than they deserve. This isn't to say that people won't hear a difference, because we do hear differences. The problem is we have a hard time distinguishing actual sonic changes from what's in our heads due to biases.
Unless you are running digital (optical/coax) into the MS8
EVERY HU will sound different...
This is one of the very FEW TIMES, you'll ever hear me say something like "EVERY HU will sound different"
But it's true... you could hook up 10 different HU's and it's going to sound 10 different ways....
I used to repair HU's, so I've benched HUNDREDS...(nothing recent, so please don't ask)
Your MS8 is just interrupting signals, which in most cases has ALREADY gone though one D/A-A/D conversion, just to get in the unit... Then it does it's mathematical wizardry to give you what you want... and flips another D/A conversion for you to send it to amps that will change the sound and then speakers that change the sound AGAIN..
Seems rather convoluted doesn't it..?
it's an MS8 world...
Will a different HU "magically" give you better sound, quite possible, but then again, it'll be "different" so who can REALLY say a 80PRS will do ANYTHING for you... allllllll that processing power, being cut off at it's knees, because it's being run into an MS8...
sounds promising... not...
Quote:
The years passed, mankind became stupider at a frightening rate. Some had high hopes the genetic engineering would correct this trend in evolution, but sadly the greatest minds and resources where focused on conquering hair loss and prolonging erections. - Narrator: Idiocracy
Last edited by Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX; 05-06-2012 at 08:17 AM..
I agree with everyone else, each headunit is made differently. it is really hard to say what will sound better. I suggest you get a headunit you like and can live with then work around that for a system
FWIW, I'll provide the dissenting opinion here, and say, no you're not going to hear a difference from one HU to the next. But there can be a very big difference between HUs when it comes to available DSP features, CD skipping/playback, and most importantly (IMO), on-the-fly adjustability.
And like Aaron, I've benched a lot of them too, so I'm curious why we arrived at such different results.
I hang around a bunch of hardcore SQ nuts who compete and atually win...I asked one of them if the source made a difference when we have a DSP after it.. his response was "Sh!t in equals Sh!t out". If the rest of your system is of good quality I would find it hard to believe you cant tell the difference between a low end 150$ headunit to a 800$ one. I find it kind of funny reading all these threads about how amps sound the same... headunits sound the same.. but when you get with the guys who truly know thier crap that compete and have a true passion for car audio.. they can tell the difference. I am sure I will be flamed for this but I am ok with that
I hang around a bunch of hardcore SQ nuts who compete and atually win...I asked one of them if the source made a difference when we have a DSP after it.. his response was "Sh!t in equals Sh!t out". If the rest of your system is of good quality I would find it hard to believe you cant tell the difference between a low end 150$ headunit to a 800$ one. I find it kind of funny reading all these threads about how amps sound the same... headunits sound the same.. but when you get with the guys who truly know thier crap that compete and have a true passion for car audio.. they can tell the difference. I am sure I will be flamed for this but I am ok with that
I'm not bashing anyone's opinion on this. I just know what I have learned talking to the guys I talk to and hearing their setups and getting their input. They aren't the kind of guys who tell you what you are hearing..they ask you.. what do you hear that is different? This has taken my setup to another level and I believe that my old Alpine 9835 would not have gotten me where I am with my Sound Monitor. I don't believe the 9835 to be a low end unit either. I ran it for 6 years and knew it very very well.
I had 4 different units installed over a 3 month period and I could clearly hear the difference in all of them. My setup was exaclty the same using an ms8. I could easily hear the difference. I can't say the same about swapping out 4 different amps ranging from low to mid level.
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Head unit- Pioneer DEH 80prs Dsp- JBL Ms8 Amps -2 ppi p900.4
. Tweeters - Lpg26na Midrange - Tang band W3
. Mid Bass - Rs180 sub - 2 jl 10w6v2
I hang around a bunch of hardcore SQ nuts who compete and atually win...I asked one of them if the source made a difference when we have a DSP after it.. his response was "Sh!t in equals Sh!t out". If the rest of your system is of good quality I would find it hard to believe you cant tell the difference between a low end 150$ headunit to a 800$ one. I find it kind of funny reading all these threads about how amps sound the same... headunits sound the same.. but when you get with the guys who truly know thier crap that compete and have a true passion for car audio.. they can tell the difference. I am sure I will be flamed for this but I am ok with that
except that the signal you put into a processor gets manipulated by the processor then to the amps which may or may not alter the signal as well.
So lets assume your amps do their job and Only amplify the signal without adding anything more---the last thing in line before that is the processor. So the amps are amplifying the signal put out by the processor. the AD/DA in the processor, opamps, etc....
LOTS of VERY successful competitors use very average head units...Mark Elderidge has been running an Alpine 9860 or 9861 into his DBX.
Bob Johann , multi IASCA world champion, ran the JCV SH-99 which was a $400 head unit...I ran a 9860 when I won IASCA and MECA finals.
Todd Luliak who won Extreme class and had the 2nd Highest score behind Elderidge at MECA finals was an Alpine 505 I think....
id pay more attention to what comes after the head unit....
2010 MECA Extreme World champion,
2005 IASCA World Champion Pro 600+
2010 MECA Mike Baylor Sportsmanship Award
2011 MECA SQL Spirit Award
2012 MECA SQL Judge of The Year
2012 IASCA FINALS SQ/INSTALL Judge
2012 USACi Japan Finals Judge
Never said you couldn't win with a lower end deck. My point was you can hear a sound difference between a lower end deck and an upper end deck. Lot of guys who compete run higher end decks also like Steve Head's Sound Monitor, Erik Hansen's modified Panny etc. If the deck didn't make that much difference why do people bother to have Matt R modify them? I have to believe if you start with an extremely clean signal it can improve your sound as opposed to starting with a crappy signal from a lower end deck as long as the rest of your components are of good quality.. amps, dsp, speakers etc. Not trying to argue.. your points are valid. Not saying it can't sound good with a lower end deck. I just believe with an upper end deck it can sound better.
I see both sides to it. And I personally might attempt my Zapco DC Refs off of my stock head unit to start with. So I really hope to see how it goes and then when I upgrade I will be able to give a better answer. And I would love to think its going to be fantastic and not need improvement. But.....
And just like Brian, I'm not trying to start an argument. But if all decks sound the same why don't we see more JVC and Boss in the lanes competing? And I did read the post above where there have been some lower end deck being successful and like that. I'm personally not one to spend tons of money on equipment. The DC Refs were at a great price otherwise I wouldn't have bought them.
I see both sides to it. And I personally might attempt my Zapco DC Refs off of my stock head unit to start with. So I really hope to see how it goes and then when I upgrade I will be able to give a better answer. And I would love to think its going to be fantastic and not need improvement. But.....
And just like Brian, I'm not trying to start an argument. But if all decks sound the same why don't we see more JVC and Boss in the lanes competing? And I did read the post above where there have been some lower end deck being successful and like that. I'm personally not one to spend tons of money on equipment. The DC Refs were at a great price otherwise I wouldn't have bought them.
Heck, Ricky's stock headunit in his setup sounded awesome with his MS8. Enough to get him 2nd place at Heatwave in Houston. I am eager to hear it with his new deck but he made some other amp changes as well so it won't be an exact comparison.
Here's my .02 on the subject. I think there can be an audible difference between SOME source units. From what I've read on this, there are three main contributing factors.
The first is based on the DAC used. Since most modern mid-level and up units use a 20-bit or better DAC (and most use 24-bit), I think this is largely a non-factor.
The second is if the volume control is analog or digital (and how well the digital control is implemented). A poorly implemented digital volume control has a noise floor that is "fixed" much higher. What this means is that at lower volumes, the noise floor can remain higher than a analog or good digital counterpart (at full output there isn't much difference however which is where most people test headunits). Analog volume has some potential issues of its own (see below) which could explain the love for some of the MAC, Denon, and Nak units. Essentially, these units are less accurate, BUT don't gloss over the "false sense of dynamics" part. And don't discount that less accurate playback or distortion can't be considered pleasing (people love tube amps)...it just can't be considered accurate.
"A passive volume control adds distortion as phase distortion. As a general rule, its the impedance limitations of the typical high end volume pot that causes the poor reproduction of dynamics and high frequency loss, also keep in mind that even the slightest unevenness in frequency response or phase distortion will add a false sense of dynamics since the apparent volume of the playback will vary as the pitch of the music varies, these factors add muddiness to the sound. There are better pots than others but even the best has degrees of the above."
Third is dithering. This is basically what the head unit does to attenuate harmonics that are "outside" the threshold of hearing. I say "outside" because human hearing range is generally considered to be 20-20k and these components take place at 20k+...yet people claim the differences are audible. From what I understand, most use a brick wall filter at 22khz. Two units that I know play with this are the Sony C90 and the DRZ9255. The C90 has the VC Digital Filter which changed the roll-off characteristics of the dithering filter. The DRZ simply claims with the 24/96 processing abilities, it pushes the dithering further beyond 22khz.
Having said all that, I still think nearly every other factor of an install will have a greater effect on the sound than the source itself (as long as it's mid-level and up). I'd go as far to say the expectation bias of a "sq" source unit plays a larger role in The end than the source itself.
Personally, I would choose a source based on every factor other than "sq" first. I've owned a C90, DRZ, Denford, URAL, P99, and now have a 80prs. I love the P99 and 80prs from a features standpoint, but I hate the volume control scaling of each. I also hate the feel of the 80prs. As such, I'm looking at trying the C90 or DRZ again. I love the fixed face of the DRZ and a volume control that goes to 0db at max output (both have this).
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Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
Head unit upgrade = better SQ output?
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