Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-08-2012   #1
Classifieds Access
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Age: 27
Posts: 56

12V Company:
ELITE AUTO & CYCLE
Position:
Consultant & Installer

Rep Power: 31 supertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

So I'm looking for people who have used any of the kx series subs.
Mostly trying to get some feed back. Pros/cons likes and dislikes
So if you have used it let me know what u know!
supertrav2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012   #2
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 227

Rep Power: 77 Mitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Greetings!

What exactly would you like to know?

Nick Wingate
National Training Coordinator
Focal/Mosconi America
Mitsu1grn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012   #3
 
SentraStyleEMW's Avatar
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kissimmee, Fl
Posts: 183

Rep Power: 80 SentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (12)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

I am currently running the 27KX in my car. I can honestly say it is the best sub I've used so far. I have it in around a 1ft^3 box getting about 400 watts RMS from an Alpine MRV-T757. Without a doubt the most accurate sub I've used. It is far from the loudest (but I wasn't really looking for loud when I bought it).
SentraStyleEMW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012   #4
Classifieds Access
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Age: 27
Posts: 56

12V Company:
ELITE AUTO & CYCLE
Position:
Consultant & Installer

Rep Power: 31 supertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Well the reason I ask is because I have the choice of the kx and the morel ultimo, I just don't want everyone to chime in and start talking about the ultimo! I know what it does!
But when I search for info on the kx subs info seems to be pretty scarce
supertrav2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012   #5
 
SentraStyleEMW's Avatar
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kissimmee, Fl
Posts: 183

Rep Power: 80 SentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enoughSentraStyleEMW will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (12)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

You really can't go wrong with either sub. I have never personally heard the Morel, so I can't give you a comparison review.
SentraStyleEMW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012   #6
 
acidbass303's Avatar
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Pakistan
Posts: 148

Rep Power: 49 acidbass303 will become famous soon enoughacidbass303 will become famous soon enoughacidbass303 will become famous soon enoughacidbass303 will become famous soon enoughacidbass303 will become famous soon enoughacidbass303 will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Running 33kx, very very happy with it.....Extremely accurate and dynamic. For more output, ask Mr Nick Wingate for a ported enclosure design. Using the same design , plays flat, very low extension and great output.

Pioneer Dex-P99rs|Morel Elate 6 3W|Helix C-Dsp| JL Audio 12w6v2
Helix Competition A6 | Helix competition A1 | Adcom GFA 4702|McIntosh MC431
acidbass303 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012   #7
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 227

Rep Power: 77 Mitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enoughMitsu1grn will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Greetings!

As I have zero experience with the Morel driver I will not be making a comment on the pro's and con's on it. Having said that let me say this on the KX series of subs. Focal's philosophy has always been to build a "SUBWOOFER" not a bass driver. Big difference!!! Every KX series subwoofer is designed to be as accurate and linear as possible. They are not a "Club Sound" banger, but designed to reproduce as accurately as possible extreme low frequencies. 90% of my IASCA/USACi/MECA competitors use the KX series of sub's, ( 33KX is the most popular choice), and no one has any complaints on the performance of them. They are designed to play in a sealed enclosure, but some of them can be used in a ported enclosure. All of them are very efficient and don't need thousand's of watts to driver them, ( exception would be 46KX4 1000 watts nominal).

My suggestion would be to examine how much airspace you are going to allocate for the sub and look at the appropriate KX sub and see if it meets your needs. Seek out those folks who have one or better yet go to your nearest Focal dealer and see if someone there has installed one or has actually purchased one and listen. Its the best advice I can give you. Your ears are the best judge as to what works for you!

Hope this helped!

Nick Wingate
National Training Coordinator
Focal/Mosconi America
Mitsu1grn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012   #8
Classifieds Access
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Age: 27
Posts: 56

12V Company:
ELITE AUTO & CYCLE
Position:
Consultant & Installer

Rep Power: 31 supertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enoughsupertrav2 will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Thanks guy all ready made my choice focal all the way!
supertrav2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #9
 
DIYMA freshman
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: The Planet Neptune
Posts: 67

Rep Power: 15 Downr@nge will become famous soon enoughDownr@nge will become famous soon enoughDownr@nge will become famous soon enoughDownr@nge will become famous soon enoughDownr@nge will become famous soon enoughDownr@nge will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

subbed for future research....
Downr@nge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #10
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 1,659

Rep Power: 89 qwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

It's weird just going by the specs it doesn't seem like it would be THE greatest sub ever made especially considering the price.

Qts is .908, Fs of 48 hz, I think pretty much the only real use for it would be IB. And considering it's only got 9mm of Xmax you certainly would be limited in output especially since you have to run it sealed or possibly IB which necessitates needing more Xmax, and for such a low Xmax subwoofer it has 1.9 mH of inductance which is actually pretty high.
qwertydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #11
DIYMA 500 Club
 
hurrication's Avatar
 
DIYMA Regular
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: WY
Posts: 700

Rep Power: 42 hurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (9)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Inductance by itself is meaningless, you need to compare it to the dc resistance. Re/Le ratio is a better indicator of a sub's inductance.
hurrication is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #12
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 1,659

Rep Power: 89 qwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Well it's a 4.6 ohm DC resistance 1.9 mH inductance. That is kinda high and even more unusual is it's a 4 ohm rated subwoofer with 4.6 ohms DC resistance. So in reality it will never achieve a true 4 ohm impedance.

The specs I listed were just general reference. If you take a look at all the specs none of them really strike me as spectacular. Basically the Kx doesn't seem to bring anything new to the table other than the multistack magnet and outrageous pricing.
qwertydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #13
DIYMA 500 Club
 
hurrication's Avatar
 
DIYMA Regular
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: WY
Posts: 700

Rep Power: 42 hurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (9)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

A 1:1 Re/Le ratio is good, the ratio on that focal is actually very good. However, that measurement is inductance at rest. The Le curve throughout the whole excursion is where a woofer's inductance management shines. Two woofers can have the same Re/Le at rest but the one with a more linear Le curve will walk all over the one without.
hurrication is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #14
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 1,659

Rep Power: 89 qwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

But the problem is they don't publish the Le curve so how do you really know? Right now it's just assuming that the Focal is amazing based on an assumed Le curve but every other spec is average at best.

Personally if you asked me to choose between my JBL P1020D, 2 ohm subwoofer but .340 mH and damned if any golden ear can hear Le linearity especially on a woofer in a sealed box that doesn't have the kind of motor control comparable to other subs, ie lower Qts. With a Qts in the .908 range in a small sealed box you'd definitely get ringing as an SQ issue before you can hear Le linearity issues. Because one thing is certain, the lower your inductance is total, the much less likely any Le linearity issue is likely to even pop up.

So if you asked me to give up my P1020D for the Focal Kx just based on the specs alone I'd say no way. And now we're assuming that a single unpublished spec is better automatically makes this a superior woofer, sorry for me that just doesn't jive.
qwertydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #15
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Victor_inox's Avatar
 
DIYMA Loyalist
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: denver
Posts: 2,958

12V Company:
Victory Sonics
Position:
Owner/ Engineer/Sales/Support

Rep Power: 62 Victor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura about


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

KX line is a great subs, a bit too much money for what it is IMHO but if money is not an issue go for it.

Listen to the music through the stereo, not the stereo through the music.
Victor_inox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #16
DIYMA 500 Club
 
hurrication's Avatar
 
DIYMA Regular
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: WY
Posts: 700

Rep Power: 42 hurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (9)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertydude View Post
Because one thing is certain, the lower your inductance is total, the much less likely any Le linearity issue is likely to even pop up.
Sorry, but that is just incorrect. Regardless of inductance at rest, any motor that does not employ any inductance management will have a similar le curve. There's just no way around it. A woofer motor itself is nothing more than an iron core inductor, so when the coil is on its inward stroke inductance will always rise without any shorting rings. Sure, that JBL's inductance at rest might be .34mh but it is likely over 2mh on its inward stroke.

You're right, we don't know what the focal's inductance curve is like.. but with testimonials of being "the best sub I've ever heard", chances are the le and bl curves are not just a standard affair.

Speaking of bl curves.. the loss of motor force as the coil moves from rest contributes to changes in qts throughout its stroke. A sub might have a very low q at rest but end up with a q of way over 1 at the limits of its stroke. All this does is induce distortion - known as "BL distortion". Both BL and Le distortion affect how the sub sounds, so it does not take a golden ear to hear the difference between a standard sub and a low distortion sub. Also, remember that some people prefer the sound of a low q low distortion sub and some prefer the sound of a high q low distortion sub, so it is very possible for a sub to have a high qts and still sound great (example - old school OZ high-q subs).
hurrication is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #17
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 1,659

Rep Power: 89 qwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

So even if my JBL had an inductance of 2 mH at maximum excursion you're still talking about an inductance Re ratio of 1 to 1. So it's still not high since you said yourself anything less than 1:1 and you're doing good. That's the point I'm trying to make. Let's compare it to THD because that's what all distortion boils down to once it comes out of the speaker. If we had a subwoofer that could create any sound wave with only .1% THD but at high power that rose to 5% THD, now lets we compare that to a subwoofer that always put out 5% THD. Do you call the second sub superior because it always puts out 5% crap vs one that puts out .1% crap and rises to 5% at max?

Basically this is the approach that JBL took when they made the WGTi was maximum Le reduction by making a single layer voice coil so any Le rise still keeps overall Le distortion low. And it's a similar approach to the original Power series. Ultra low Le to keep any Le distortion below levels where they'd be obvious in the sound.

SQ is about accurately reproducing the source. Whether one person or another likes it or not is irrelevant. That kind of reasoning certainly doesn't fly on this board when someone says the pinnacle of recording and reproduction technology is vinyl because of it's warm sound.

And the sound of a high Qts subwoofer in a small box simply will ring too much, there's no getting around that, to be considered as accurately reproducing the source, it's distortion and the Qts number alone should tell you it should not be put in a small sealed box. Now whether someone will say they like the timbre, playfulness, rambunctiousness, and organic warmth of that subwoofer in that enclosure is getting into hifi nonsense territory. Because that tends to be the type of descriptives I see with these ultra high dollar exotics vs actual useful descriptions backed up with verifiable specs to boot.

And as for other people's opinions of hearing the sub. More than likely what they've heard is an excellent install. I highly doubt anyone who's spending that much on a subwoofer is just gonna stick it into the trunk of their econobox and call it a day. They probably could have stuck in any woofer in that install, tell the listener it costs $1500 and they'd be "blown away" by the SQ.

Last edited by qwertydude; 08-25-2013 at 06:06 PM..
qwertydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #18
DIYMA 500 Club
 
hurrication's Avatar
 
DIYMA Regular
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: WY
Posts: 700

Rep Power: 42 hurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (9)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertydude View Post
So even if my JBL had an inductance of 2 mH at maximum excursion you're still talking about an inductance Re ratio of 1 to 1. So it's still not high since you said yourself anything less than 1:1 and you're doing good. That's the point I'm trying to make.
Changes in parameters throughout the woofer's stroke is what causes distortion. It doesn't matter if the inductance at rest is .000000000005mh - if it changes throughout its stroke, it will contribute to le distortion.

Quote:
Let's compare it to THD because that's what all distortion boils down to once it comes out of the speaker. If we had a subwoofer that could create any sound wave with only .1% THD but at high power that rose to 5% THD, now lets we compare that to a subwoofer that always put out 5% THD. Do you call the second sub superior because it always puts out 5% crap vs one that puts out .1% crap and rises to 5% at max?
Actually, in my eyes.. yes I would consider the sub with 5% THD throughout its stroke superior to the one with 4.9% variance.

Quote:
SQ is about accurately reproducing the source.
Yes, this is why good le and bl curves are a good thing. A woofer with varying parameters is not reproducing the source with accuracy.
Quote:
And the sound of a high Qts subwoofer in a small box simply will ring too much to be considered as accurately reproducing the source, it's distortion and the Qts number alone should tell you it should not be put in a small sealed box.
A woofer's Q is just a mathematical product of the sub's parameters that define how it will perform near its roll off. Like I said, some people prefer the response of a high q woofer and some prefer a low q woofer. A low distortion sub will still be accurate to the source, regardless of its q, so the preference is entirely up to the listener. Have you ever listened to a low distortion sub in a high qtc arrangement?
hurrication is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #19
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 1,659

Rep Power: 89 qwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Take everything as a total. Don't just go into the variance of the spec.

The subwoofer with high distortion thoughout it's travel will output more distortion total and will sound worse.

Since it seems you can't imagine past what the numbers imply, how about this. A subwoofer starts out with 20% distortion but always maintains it. Vs one that starts out with .1% distortion and maxes out at 5%. Is the 20% distortion subwoofer still superior? Keep in mind when it comes to bass, you can't hear anything less than 10% distortion. That's a simple proven fact when people test for THD in subwoofer amplifiers claiming they can tell the difference between a class D amplifier and a class A/B subwoofer amplifier because of the increased THD of the class D. They can't get past the numbers pointing out the Class D with 1% has 25 times the distortion of the ultra high end A/B of .04% when in the end it doesn't matter since with bass anything under 10% is inaudible.

Because one thing I can guarantee you is that the Le linearity is contributing far less to the sonic accuracy of the subwoofer than the fact that people are putting this very high Qts subwoofer in the entirely wrong box. As in people claiming it'll sound good in a small sealed box and will even do ported well.

If it was any other speaker and it had a .908 Qts and someone told you it works well ported would you believe them?

It seems this subwoofer is a case simply of not enough info, not enough independent testing, and very few owners. And here you are defending it assuming it has to be good.
Every other time on this board a subwoofer comes up, the first thing we want is specs. And many of us would simply pass if the specs didn't pass muster. And if they tried to charge $1500 then we'd laugh.

But instead now we have a high dollar exotic and we're to simply take their word that it's the best. The numbers certainly don't stack up. But hey the numbers must be wrong this time right? Even though we rely on them almost every time to model a subwoofer and pass judgement on it but we're not allowed to on this one?

And a low distortion sub will only be accurate to the source if it's installed correctly. And with such low electrical damping of .97 any sort of suspension action, ie the spring back from a sealed box, working on the sub will cause excess overshoot (ringing) since the subwoofer can't damp the movement with it's motor.

And I have listened to low and high distortion subs in both high and low Qtc sealed box arrangements including IB. These include underhung subs which excel in Bl linearity and Le linearity because the entire coil is always inside the gap, Bl linearity in my opinion gives more accuracy than Le linearity which only tends to manifest itself with higher frequencies whereas Bl linearity is obvious because no matter the frequency motor strength is key to accurate sound reproduction. Le linearity on the other hand by the calculations alone would produce a negligible impedance rise at low frequencies. Which unsurprisingly is what subwoofers are used for.

Last edited by qwertydude; 08-25-2013 at 07:18 PM..
qwertydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #20
DIYMA 500 Club
 
hurrication's Avatar
 
DIYMA Regular
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: WY
Posts: 700

Rep Power: 42 hurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (9)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertydude View Post
Take everything as a total. Don't just go into the variance of the spec.

Parameter shift is the most important thing!

You can't just look at the qts at rest and form a complete judgement on the speaker.

Quote:
It seems this subwoofer is a case simply of not enough info, not enough independent testing, and very few owners. And here you are defending it assuming it has to be good.
I've mostly been trying to explain to you how subwoofers work and why BL and Le curves matter? The two times I've mentioned anything about it were pointing out its Re/Le ratio and implying that it must have good BL/Le performance since people describe it as the best sub they've ever heard. I'm not the one coming in saying that the specs suck, everybody is using it wrong, and JBL is better.
Quote:
But instead now we have a high dollar exotic and we're to simply take their word that it's the best. The numbers certainly don't stack up. But hey the numbers must be wrong this time right? Even though we rely on them almost every time to model a subwoofer and pass judgement on it but we're not allowed to on this one?
Here's the thing - we don't have to take Focal's word on it because it's pretty clear that they have quite the reputation for making very fine products as evidenced by testimonials. Sure they're ridiculously expensive, but we aren't dealing with Critical Mass here. Even though numbers can paint a good picture, they don't paint the whole picture.

We can talk about theoretical subs all day long, but I'm going to give a real world example. I built a high Q 12" sub from a R12 motor a while back that ended up with a qts of .691. One would assume that it would only work IB or need a large enclosure so it won't ring, right? Because it still has a lot of motor force, it doesn't. In fact when modeled in the same enclosure size with the same power as an IDMAX 12, it has an almost identical frequency response from about 40hz down with more roll off above that. Qtc of the MAX is .762 and qtc of the R12 is .969. Going by your logic, this shouldn't work.. but it does. It exemplifies the fact that assuming all high Q speakers behave the same is incorrect.

hurrication is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #21
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 1,659

Rep Power: 89 qwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

I understand how you can compensate various parameters for another and end up with similar graphs. The IdMax is certainly not a complete simulation because it's missing the Le which is the one aspect you keep saying seems to affect subwoofers so greatly.

But if you trust the simulation enough to draw that kind of conclusion than by simulating the 13" Focal in a similar situation to say a JBL P1220D, I don't have that particular subwoofer but I do have the P1020D so this is a similar situation I'd face if I had to pick between them.



As you can see I don't care if the Focal can reproduce some frequencies very accurately. When put in a 1.25 foot sealed box it ends up with a 2.5 db peak above nominal, that's from the transfer magnitude tab though. That's a whole heck of a lot of ringing. I put the SPL tab to show that even with the aid of ringing and the nasty peak it would cause it's still only 1 db more efficient. Couple that with the properly size enclosure and it loses all efficiency advantage and still can't reproduce nearly the range of frequencies as the JBL.

The P1220D isn't nearly as peaky and has broad frequency response, plays lower and plays higher with out the big peak. At most in a 1.25 cubic foot box it's about 1db of ringing. So it's more ideally suited for small enclosures.

Most people the first thing you'd notice when listening to the subwoofer is if it's missing sub bass because if it's a subwoofer we expect SUBbass. And the Focal is a subwoofer. And it can't even make it up by claiming to reproduce a wide range of bass all that well.

So it might reproduce sound accurately if it has all the great technology but can we confirm it? No. All we have to go with are the published specs. And they don't look all that great. So even if it could reproduce sound to the highest fidelity, it would only do so within a narrow bandwidth. And certainly not under their recommended enclosure.

I'll admit the Focal Component speakers are great. But that doesn't necessarily mean everything else they make will be equally as stunning. We all should know not every company can make great everything. Some do subwoofers great, some do components and coaxials, some make great amps. It's extremely rare for a company to do all of them well.

In this case I think the Focal just isn't cutting it. If you ran a simulation like this and didn't know which was which 99% of the people would pick the JBL over the Focal simply because the Focal has too big a box requirement and a rather narrow bandwidth. To me that's a mediocre subwoofer even if it has low distortion features which are available in much more affordable subwoofers.
qwertydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #22
DIYMA 500 Club
 
hurrication's Avatar
 
DIYMA Regular
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: WY
Posts: 700

Rep Power: 42 hurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (9)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Seriously.. we have two guys in the thread who own a kx sub and left comments on how great it sounds, but you (who haven't heard a Focal sub and won't acknowledge that bl and le curves amount to anything) don't like the specs and announce that it sucks and Focal doesn't know how to build subs?

hurrication is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #23
DIYMA 500 Club
 
Victor_inox's Avatar
 
DIYMA Loyalist
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: denver
Posts: 2,958

12V Company:
Victory Sonics
Position:
Owner/ Engineer/Sales/Support

Rep Power: 62 Victor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura aboutVictor_inox has a spectacular aura about


iTrader: (37)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurrication View Post
Seriously.. we have two guys in the thread who own a kx sub and left comments on how great it sounds, but you (who haven't heard a Focal sub and won't acknowledge that bl and le curves amount to anything) don't like the specs and announce that it sucks and Focal doesn't know how to build subs?


Listen to the music through the stereo, not the stereo through the music.
Victor_inox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #24
DIYMA 500 Club
 
DIYMA Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 1,659

Rep Power: 89 qwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enoughqwertydude will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (0)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

It's because I have several JBL subs, they all model nicely and have excellent sound quality. But you have a subwoofer that doesn't model nicely but people swear sound great? To me that's very difficult to believe.

The other guy posted a custom built subwoofer that models nicely and no surprise sounds very good. But then wants to claim that even though it's not in the specs the Focal KX has technology that can somehow make this subwoofer perform better than it models?

It's just too much hifi nonsense bleed-over. $1500 can buy you a lot better performance than the KX can offer. And I didn't say Focal doesn't know how to build subs but I'm saying that it's very hard to believe that that particular subwoofer is worth spending $1500 on.

If you take a look at Focal's lower end subs. And those ARE ones I've heard. They have them on display collecting dust at a local audio shop. Never sold a single one. They're a joke in terms of performance. I'm talking the Focal P30. $300 and you get a stamped steel frame, 5.2mm of Xmax, and only 250 watts power handling. Heck the Rockford Fosgate Primes have better specs. But I'm guessing Focal put some of their special shorting rings and other stuff in even though if they did they didn't tell us and somehow it's also not affecting the efficiency of the sub like they usually do.

The Image Dynamics ID12 is far and away a better sub costs less and will outperform the Focal in every way. So does Focal not know how to build a subwoofer? Maybe not but they certainly aren't gonna win fans here by selling a low performing woofer for as much as they do.

For me it's far better to have a subwoofer outperform it's expectations and punch above it's weight. It's why I like the JBL's got mine for $150 and it's hard to argue against the Power Series as a known SQ sub. But for $1500 I'd at the least expect a subwoofer to model nicely.

But then again there's a sucker born every minute. And it's aweful hard to escape the Chivas Regal effect when you're pricing even a crappy subwoofer like the P30 for $300.
qwertydude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013   #25
DIYMA 500 Club
 
hurrication's Avatar
 
DIYMA Regular
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: WY
Posts: 700

Rep Power: 42 hurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enoughhurrication will become famous soon enough


iTrader: (9)



Default Re: Focal kx sub experience ? Anybody

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertydude View Post
The other guy posted a custom built subwoofer that models nicely and no surprise sounds very good. But then wants to claim that even though it's not in the specs the Focal KX has technology that can somehow make this subwoofer perform better than it models?
I posted the sub to illustrate that judging a sub's performance based solely on its qts at rest (among other specs) is not always a perfect indicator of its performance.

The JBL MS12 has a qts of .86 and 7mm xmax. According to you they must really suck? Not really according to this review!

Questioning things is good practice, but you have to keep an open mind. Have you ever thought that there just might be a lot more to designing and building low distortion subwoofers than just putting something together that spits out the same specs as everything else? That maybe they were designed and built by people who are way smarter than all of us?

Last edited by hurrication; 08-25-2013 at 10:42 PM..
hurrication is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


» Amps
A/d/s/
Advent
Alphasonik
Alpine
American Bass
ARC Audio
Atomic
Audio Art
Audio Gods
Audiobahn
Audiocontrol
Audiopipe
Audison
Aura
Autotek
Avionixx
Bazooka
Beyma
Blaupunkt
Boss
Boston Acoustics
Bravox
Cadence
Cascade (CAE)
CDT Audio
Cerwin Vega
Clarion
Clif Designs
Concept
Coustic
Critical Mass
Crossfire
Crunch
DB Drive
DC Audio
DC Power
DEI
Denon
Diabolo
Diamond
Digital Designs
Directed
DLS
Dual
DYnamat
Dynaudio
Earthquake
Eclipse
Elemental Designs
ESX
Eton
Farenheit
Fi Car Audio
Focal
Fusion
Genesis
Ground Zero
Hafler
Helix
Hertz
Hifonics
Hushmat
Image Dynamics
Infinity
Interfire
JBL
Jensen
JL Audio
JVC
Kenwood
Kicker
Knu Konceptz
Kole Audio
Kove Audio
Lanzar
Lightning Audio
Linear Power
MA Audio
Magnat
Marantz
Massive Audio
MB Quart
McIntosh
Memphis
Metra
Milbert
MMATS
Mobile Authority
Morel
MTX
Nakamichi
Niche Audio
O2 Audio
Ohio Generator
Optima
Orion
Oxygen Audio
OZ Audio
PG Audio
Phase Linear
Phoenix Gold
Pioneer
Polk
Power Acoustik
Powerbass
Powermaster
Precision Power
Profile
Pyle
Pyramid
RadioShack
Rainbow
Rampage
RE AUdio
Rockford Fosgate
Scanspeak
Scosche
Seas
Sony
soundstream
Sparkomatic
SPL Dynamics
Stinger
Sundown Audio
Swiss Audio
Targa
TC Sounds
TREO Engineering
TRU
Tsunami
Ultimate
US Acoustics
US Amps
Velodyne
Vifa
Viper
Visonik
Xtant
Zapco
Zed Audio
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Ad Management by RedTyger

Meet Our Team | Forum | Privacy and Rules | Advertise | Archive | Search | Contact Us

Home | User CP | Members List | New Posts | ITrader | Faq | Post Spy