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Old 1 Week Ago   #1
 
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Default Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

Wondering about keeping my HAT Imagines, which I have had for years, as I switch vehicles. The Imagines have always sounded a touch cold to me, so I've been considering Morels, which have a reputation for being warm, or another Speaker with a similar sound. It could be all kinds of other factors that led me to think the Imagines are cold and it isn't the speaker's fault. But my experience in other audio is that the material/design of the speakers and electronics disposes them to either on the cold (Infinity, Klipsch, solid state) side or warm (Boston Acoustic, Vandersteen, tubes) side.

I've never heard a DSP, so I wondering if it can "warm up" a cold sound. I realize that it can change the output at various frequencies, and likely what I imagine is cold vs warm is somehow a product of that. But I'd guess that the effect of, say, a metal dome vs. fabric dome is more complex and subtle than can be overcome with electronics.

If the Imagines can be transformed to warm speakers with a good DSP, I'd keep them. Otherwise, I'll sell them. Thanks in advance for replies -- it really helps someone in my position.
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

this should be a very fun thread!

my thoughts are this. you are correct in that cold vs warm is a frequency response thing..warmer is said to have more midbass and less upper mid and lower tweeter range..and because of that a dsp can certainly do that. I think people will have a ball arguing this point, but lets see if theres some reasoned opinions about this, because I know what I've done to make this work by boosting certain frequencies and cutting others, but others may have ideas better or just different..which is interesting too.

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

[QUOTE=Lycancatt;4561082]this should be a very fun thread!

Thanks. I'm just picturing the way that a sound wave is generated by one kind of material vs. another. There have to be all sorts of artifacts in the way the vibration emerges from one material and different artifacts for another. I am guessing that it would be hard, or even impossible, to account for these differences with a DSP, which can only adjust the volume of various frequencies, not fundamentally transform their complex shapes.

A rough analogy: You can make a lemon taste sweeter with sugar, but it's never going to taste like an orange. Or maybe I don't know enough about either food science or audio to make such a claim.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #4
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

[QUOTE=mr.gone;4561098]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycancatt View Post
this should be a very fun thread!

Thanks. I'm just picturing the way that a sound wave is generated by one kind of material vs. another. There have to be all sorts of artifacts in the way the vibration emerges from one material and different artifacts for another. I am guessing that it would be hard, or even impossible, to account for these differences with a DSP, which can only adjust the volume of various frequencies, not fundamentally transform their complex shapes.

A rough analogy: You can make a lemon taste sweeter with sugar, but it's never going to taste like an orange. Or maybe I don't know enough about either food science or audio to make such a claim.
That's not exactly how it works. But first things first, yes you should be able to eq your speakers to sound like most adjectives people use to describe speakers. Thing is, minus eq the cars interior and install has more of an effect on the overall sound than the Speaker itself does. As for the material.. while they're still in their pistonic range they will sound the same all else being equal. They start to sound different when cone modes kick in. The stiffer the material, the later/intense the cone breakup is. Vice versa for softer material. Long story short, up until frequencies that are higher than the particular Speaker should be playing, don't worry about the cone material. There is MUCH more to a speaker than that. The analogy doesn't exactly work like your thinking it does

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Old 1 Week Ago   #5
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

Pretty much what Lycancatt and SkizeR have mentioned.

If you're 1) starting with decent equipment that doesn't have a fundamental flaw and 2) you're using it as intended (like not trying to use a typical 6" driver full-range without a tweeter) then you can do quite a bit with a DSP. There are tons of things you cannot do with DSP, but changing the overall warm/cold impression that a Speaker gives you is absolutely possible if you keep in mind the two caveats I mentioned earlier (which I think Lycancatt and SkizeR were hinting at too too).

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

In a musicians deffinition WARM describes the midbass area, 100-220hz area.


Nick is the material don't matter why give me such crap about the aluminum cone?
Btw you got me wanting to drop a grand on some dyna or morels now. Thanks bud
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Old 1 Week Ago   #7
 
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

[QUOTE=SkizeR;4561106]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.gone View Post

That's not exactly how it works. But first things first, yes you should be able to eq your speakers to sound like most adjectives people use to describe speakers. Thing is, minus eq the cars interior and install has more of an effect on the overall sound than the Speaker itself does. As for the material.. while they're still in their pistonic range they will sound the same all else being equal. They start to sound different when cone modes kick in. The stiffer the material, the later/intense the cone breakup is. Vice versa for softer material. Long story short, up until frequencies that are higher than the particular Speaker should be playing, don't worry about the cone material. There is MUCH more to a speaker than that. The analogy doesn't exactly work like your thinking it does

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Interesting. Thanks. I can picture that with a woofer, but a tweeter is harder to picture. I guess they have "excursion," but I don't think of them sounding different only when hitting some maximum volume. They seem to sound different than one another even at very low levels.

What I am guessing you're saying is that within limits, the differences between speakers of good quality is that some will be more prominent in one frequency than another. As long as frequencies aren't missing altogether or distorted for other reasons, it's just a question of dialing back the overly loud frequencies and boosting the softer ones so you've got whatever sonic signature you're looking for. And I'm further guessing that a DSP can affect that, but it can't do things like change the dispersion angles or the speed of a speaker's response to a signal.

Do I have that right?
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

[QUOTE=mr.gone;4561674]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post

Interesting. Thanks. I can picture that with a woofer, but a tweeter is harder to picture. I guess they have "excursion," but I don't think of them sounding different only when hitting some maximum volume. They seem to sound different than one another even at very low levels.

What I am guessing you're saying is that within limits, the differences between speakers of good quality is that some will be more prominent in one frequency than another. As long as frequencies aren't missing altogether or distorted for other reasons, it's just a question of dialing back the overly loud frequencies and boosting the softer ones so you've got whatever sonic signature you're looking for. And I'm further guessing that a DSP can affect that, but it can't do things like change the dispersion angles or the speed of a speaker's response to a signal.

Do I have that right?
I'm saying that when eq'd to the same response, speakers will sound very similar. The differences you would hear would just be the different distortion profiles.

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

With high frequencies the Car plays a big role. Reflections. I get a 3db bump on my drivers side from the steering column. And it reflects it into the plastic on my sun visor.
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

I doubt many people could identify a Speaker by its coloring. Heck I have a hard time hearing 10% THD with music.
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

[QUOTE=SkizeR;4561682]
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Originally Posted by mr.gone View Post
I'm saying that when eq'd to the same response, speakers will sound very similar. The differences you would hear would just be the different distortion profiles.

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So as long as you're not playing them louder than they're designed to handle or the amp can support, different speakers can be made to sound alike, right?
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

[QUOTE=mr.gone;4561730]
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Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post

So as long as you're not playing them louder than they're designed to handle or the amp can support, different speakers can be made to sound alike, right?
Louder, lower, and higher. So at normal volumes within their designated passband, they will sound much more similar than you would think

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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I doubt many people could identify a Speaker by its coloring. Heck I have a hard time hearing 10% THD with music.
I've spent a lot of time auditioning home speakers in setups where they're getting the same signals and they sound vastly different. I'm pretty sure I could tell you whether something was a Paradigm or a B&W or a Cerwin-Vega blindfolded.
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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Originally Posted by DC/Hertz View Post
In a musicians deffinition WARM describes the midbass area, 100-220hz area.


Nick is the material don't matter why give me such crap about the aluminum cone?
Btw you got me wanting to drop a grand on some dyna or morels now. Thanks bud
Read the rest of my post. I've also told you a few times already. I guess nothing sticks

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

[QUOTE=mr.gone;4561730]
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Originally Posted by SkizeR View Post

So as long as you're not playing them louder than they're designed to handle or the amp can support, different speakers can be made to sound alike, right?
Yes, but there's other factors that make different speakers better than others for various applications

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

[QUOTE=SkizeR;4561794]
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Originally Posted by mr.gone View Post
Yes, but there's other factors that make different speakers better than others for various applications

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Well, I won't try to figure out what all of those are. Basic decision for me: Hold onto the HAT Imagines, expecting I can make them sound warmer and make some of the upper midrange more prominent, or sell them and get something that is naturally warm to begin with? Not looking to spend more than $400 for a set of components.

I'd run the Imagines in an active mode with a good DSP. Car is a 2008 Acura TL. Woofers in door, tweeters in the dash.
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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Read the rest of my post. I've also told you a few times already. I guess nothing sticks

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

The jargon associated with this hobby can be a nightmare, since things like "warm," "bright," "cold," etc. don't have an objective meaning, we need to define them before we start talking about them.

One common description of "warm" is a frequency response that favors low frequencies more than high frequencies. This can absolutely be changed with DSP. However, another common description of "warm" comes from distortion, like SkizerR has mentioned. This cannot be changed with DSP. So, it's important to understand what a person means by "warm."

By the way, people like distortion. even order distortion is what makes tube amps sound so pleasing. Many people dislike low distortion subwoofers because they don't sound as loud. The extra harmonics give a sound that is perceived as fuller, and louder.

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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I'm old and drugged up on pain killers... but I do also know how bias you are.
Your right. Aluminum made fun of me as a kid so now I never suggest it for a 2 way 6.5

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

Music can also have distortion recorded or played into it.
But warm only means one thing, midbass.
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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Your right. Aluminum made fun of me as a kid so now I never suggest it for a 2 way 6.5

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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Music can also have distortion recorded or played into it.
But warm only means one thing, midbass.
Oh really? So, by your definition there is no such thing as a warm, or bright tweeter, since they don't play midbass.

None of this jargon means anything. Frequency response graphs mean something, "warm" and "bright" are ambiguous.

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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The jargon associated with this hobby can be a nightmare, since things like "warm," "bright," "cold," etc. don't have an objective meaning, we need to define them before we start talking about them.

One common description of "warm" is a frequency response that favors low frequencies more than high frequencies. This can absolutely be changed with DSP. However, another common description of "warm" comes from distortion, like SkizerR has mentioned. This cannot be changed with DSP. So, it's important to understand what a person means by "warm."

By the way, people like distortion. even order distortion is what makes tube amps sound so pleasing. Many people dislike low distortion subwoofers because they don't sound as loud. The extra harmonics give a sound that is perceived as fuller, and louder.
I guess this is what I meant by "artifacts" -- something less than a pristine signal that can affect our response to what we're hearing. I know that tube amps are favored by many for their distorting effects. And I seem to recall articles that talked about how two pair of speakers can have very similar graphic outputs but sound different.

All of this leads me to think that DSPs can be very effective in taming the undesirable elements of a Speaker and its interactions with a car's environment, but they can't create the pleasing distortions that a Speaker lacks because of its design.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #24
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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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Originally Posted by DC/Hertz View Post
But warm only means one thing, midbass.
not really.. but then again, thats whats wrong with subjective terms

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Default Re: Can a DSP make "cold" speakers sound "warm?"

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Originally Posted by mr.gone View Post
All of this leads me to think that DSPs can be very effective in taming the undesirable elements of a Speaker and its interactions with a car's environment
thats the point of them


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Originally Posted by mr.gone View Post
but they can't create the pleasing distortions that a Speaker lacks because of its design.
you dont want that. and if you do just get a tube preamp or even the head unit that i have

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