Why 10's or 12's for midbass?? - Page 3 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

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Old 12-06-2016   #51
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Originally Posted by Orion525iT View Post
1) I have done two things, one is to stick the drivers in places that most would consider to be esoteric. The second thing is that I am building bandpass boxes for the midbass, and stuffing them in places you never thought they would go. You can do this because you can get insane output levels from BP boxes and you don't need huge drivers to get there. Also, with some thought you can work the tuning and BP peak into the problem areas and eq the rest. At least, that's the plan . But BP boxes are not easy to build, and I can assure you these are the most complicated boxes I have ever attempted.

2) People will still stick to the "IB" in the door no matter how much you argue against it. I still think it is the worst possible spot because you are literally sitting at the edge of the dipole baffle, with only felted strip of rubber between. But people swear by it.

I am curious if one can get away with just two midbass drivers for an "array" by simply placing them eccentrically with the problem frequencies in mind.
Couldn't agree more. I nearly cut my thumb off trying to make my Beolab lenses, and then a couple years later I got into the bandpass midbass thing. Making bandpass midbasses is like making a bandpass sub. Except each enclosure takes twice as long because they're so small, and you need four of them not one

It's a complete p.i.t.a. and the main reason I bought a 3D printer.


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Old 12-06-2016   #52
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion525iT View Post
2) People will still stick to the "IB" in the door no matter how much you argue against it. I still think it is the worst possible spot because you are literally sitting at the edge of the dipole baffle, with only felted strip of rubber between. But people swear by it.
idk, ive never seen anyone swear by sticking to the doors. kicks, sure. but never doors

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Old 12-13-2016   #53
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

There are only two difficulties with doors, rattles, and nulls if you have a large center tunnel. The doors leak, yes, but I've never seen cancellation worth worrying about. This is something you have to test and see for yourself. You do not get dipole behavior with door mounted woofers period.

The difficulty with kicks is getting enough airspace. You either trade off spl or a low Q.

I prefer the doors, I need both output and a low Q. I can deal deal with rattles in many ways.

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Old 12-23-2016   #54
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Originally Posted by cvjoint View Post
There are only two difficulties with doors, rattles, and nulls if you have a large center tunnel. The doors leak, yes, but I've never seen cancellation worth worrying about. This is something you have to test and see for yourself. You do not get dipole behavior with door mounted woofers period.
To be extra clear, I certainly didn't mean to implicate that you get a dipole "behavior", but without question you are at the edge of such a baffle. There is a strip of rubber that separates, and the output loss will be dependent how well that strip seals. That is very car dependent.

Bottom line is you still lose output, and to compensate you end up throwing more power at them, which then leads to more issues with door rattles, ect. Or you could go with larger drivers and add more power to them too, ect.

In the end, that the typical 60hz suck out and the loss of output from an incomplete seal at the window felt will often lead people to seek some form of brute force approach. My point is that there are other options.
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Old 01-09-2017   #55
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion525iT View Post
To be extra clear, I certainly didn't mean to implicate that you get a dipole "behavior", but without question you are at the edge of such a baffle. There is a strip of rubber that separates, and the output loss will be dependent how well that strip seals. That is very car dependent.

Bottom line is you still lose output, and to compensate you end up throwing more power at them, which then leads to more issues with door rattles, ect. Or you could go with larger drivers and add more power to them too, ect.

In the end, that the typical 60hz suck out and the loss of output from an incomplete seal at the window felt will often lead people to seek some form of brute force approach. My point is that there are other options.
You lose output in some octave(s), but how low is it? That's the key. Above that frequency with IB like air spring sensitivity is actually improved and the Q is lower, much lower than in a small kick box. In all my builds the door speakers play flat to under 60hz, which is lower than I dare cross any midbass, even my 10s. I say it's a leaky box and nowhere close to a dipole. It's not good enough as a sub, but definitely works well for midbass. Every location is a box of compromises. I like the ones for the doors.

The 60hz suckout is either on just one side (driver's) when there is cancellation of the center tunnel, or from all directions when it's the cabin dimensions at work. In either case it's not the door per se, but I agree that with kicks placed more on axis if it's the center tunnel that's the culprit it is an improvement.

The kicks have one huge downside, and that is airspace. No good speaker was ever developed with a huge Q. I've had my share of high Q boxes and I'm totally done with them. If you want a low Q and high output in kicks there is only one way, and that is to gut the car frame to open the box into the frame of the car or exterior. In some 2 pedal cars there may be a way to build a big enough box too. Either way, you'd be driving an auto car or a neutered chassis. Not exactly worth the tradeoff to me.

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Old 01-12-2017   #56
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

Quote:
Either way, you'd be driving an auto car or a neutered chassis. Not exactly worth the tradeoff to me.
Yeah, but sometimes "life situations" dictate a slushbox
So I'm going to take advantage of that as much as possible, yet within reason.



Unless I can't be made to be reasonable!!!

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Old 01-21-2017   #57
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Yeah, but sometimes "life situations" dictate a slushbox
So I'm going to take advantage of that as much as possible, yet within reason.



Unless I can't be made to be reasonable!!!
If life situations means "wife" then get another one. There should be no reason not to drive stick, unless disabled.

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Old 01-21-2017   #58
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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If life situations means "wife" then get another one. There should be no reason not to drive stick, unless disabled.
Lol! Did that! The cost could have purchased a number of two seaters, but it was well worth it! As a matter of fact, I celebrated via buying a new porsche and cool house with the bit that was left over

Now, the "life situation" is 9yo and 7yo that my subsequent wife gave to me (well worth the "cost", by a large order of magnitude). My commute is in what is effectively a two seater, with +2 in the back..... "Auto", as electric cars don't have a manual gearbox (remember>commuter). We also have her slush box suv kid hauler, and the inevitable large-comfy-sedan for my 6'6" frame and my kiddos and niece in the back, who are on track to come close to or exceed me. Not really the "right thing" for a manual, nor does anyone make one. Mercedes even puts the lower gear count auto in what I currently have, due the the power it has to transmit. I also always have A few other cars available to play with that have three pedals.

All That said, I had occasion to play with a slick car similar to yours early this week, and I would agree > the manual is my preferrence. The car Is actually for sale, and I could help get a great price for someone. The car in this article: 2016 Callaway SC757 Z06 Corvette | MotorWeek
If you know someone looking, pass it along.


Tldr- back on topic
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Old 01-21-2017   #59
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Originally Posted by danno14 View Post
Lol! Did that! The cost could have purchased a number of two seaters, but it was well worth it! As a matter of fact, I celebrated via buying a new porsche and cool house with the bit that was left over

Now, the "life situation" is 9yo and 7yo that my subsequent wife gave to me (well worth the "cost", by a large order of magnitude). My commute is in what is effectively a two seater, with +2 in the back..... "Auto", as electric cars don't have a manual gearbox (remember>commuter). We also have her slush box suv kid hauler, and the inevitable large-comfy-sedan for my 6'6" frame and my kiddos and niece in the back, who are on track to come close to or exceed me. Not really the "right thing" for a manual, nor does anyone make one. Mercedes even puts the lower gear count auto in what I currently have, due the the power it has to transmit. I also always have A few other cars available to play with that have three pedals.

All That said, I had occasion to play with a slick car similar to yours early this week, and I would agree > the manual is my preferrence. The car Is actually for sale, and I could help get a great price for someone. The car in this article: 2016 Callaway SC757 Z06 Corvette | MotorWeek
If you know someone looking, pass it along.


Tldr- back on topic
Having room to park extra cars definitely opens up some possibilities.

I understand the eco friendliness of electric cars. That said the only sacrifices I make for eco friendliness is to use a catalytic converter and use of higher gears when I'm cruising.

Kids are not an excuse, lots of neat 4 seaters with manual. Porsche and BMW make some nice cars in stick with a rear seat. My favorites are the na 911 GTS and the V8 M3. A bigger kid/wife hauler would be the new M5.

Detroit Auto Show had suppliers showing options for manual hybrid cars. The technology is there. If the buyers demand manual hybrid cars auto makers will make them.

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Old 01-24-2017   #60
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

Have you ever sat 10 ft away from someone playing the drums? It can easily be painful. It's not about a thump but a snap you can feel through your body and into your bones. Have you ever heard that sound come from a 6.5" mid-bass? I haven't no matter how much power they got or how they were eq'd or how much they cost.

In my home 7.1 system there are seven MTM's with two 6.5s and each speaker gets 100 watts. That's fourteen 6.5s and 700 watts. My home system does many things better than my car system but in dynamics it not even close. My car has two 12" mid-basses and 160 watts it sounds like I'm sitting next to a set of drums. Listen to MJ's 'Billy Jean' on a system that has big mid-basses and you will be shocked at how different it sounds.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruc...llie-jean.html

My friends listen to my HT system and always say my car sounds better which is why my next HT will have a WMTMW with two 15" mid-basses, two Audax PR170MO and CP21F per side.

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Old 01-24-2017   #61
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Originally Posted by mitchyz250f View Post
Have you ever sat 10 ft away from someone playing the drums? It can easily be painful. It's not about a thump but a snap you can feel through your body and into your bones. Have you ever heard that sound come from a 6.5" mid-bass? I haven't no matter how much power they got or how they were eq'd or how much they cost.

In my home 7.1 system there are seven MTM's with two 6.5s and each speaker gets 100 watts. That's fourteen 6.5s and 700 watts. My home system does many things better than my car system but in dynamics it not even close. My car has two 12" mid-basses and 160 watts it sounds like I'm sitting next to a set of drums. Listen to MJ's 'Billy Jean' on a system that has big mid-basses and you will be shocked at how different it sounds.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruc...llie-jean.html

My friends listen to my HT system and always say my car sounds better which is why my next HT will have a WMTMW with two 15" mid-basses, two Audax PR170MO and CP21F per side.
You're also likely 2-3x the distance from your speakers in your HT compared to the distance from your speakers in your car. That's the reason inwent pro audio with 15's and a 2" CD in my home theater.

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Old 01-24-2017   #62
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
You're also likely 2-3x the distance from your speakers in your HT compared to the distance from your speakers in your car. That's the reason inwent pro audio with 15's and a 2" CD in my home theater.
...and you have a much smaller "room" to energize in a vehicle as well!


Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchyz250f View Post
Hey Mitch, FYI that Link was dead for me and I'm registered on that site. I believe that you might have been referring to the thread about Bruce Swedien tracking/mixing MJ's Billie Jean track for the Thriller album?

So I think you meant this thread...

The REAL Story on "Billie Jean"...

and another good one...

Critical listening with Bruce Swedien


FYI, I'm a drummer, so I can relate to your experience of sitting 10ft away from someone playing the drums...or even closer.

If you all will for a moment, think about the SIZE of the "piston" or "cone area" of an actual snare drum head which is usually 14", or better yet, a kick drum that is between 18"-26" in diameter, and usually 22" for most Rock/Pop in the 80's era. That should give you an idea of how much air needs to be displaced to recreate the full impact and dynamics of drums faithfully.

In regards to the snare drum, add in the snare wire buzz, plus there is often the piercing sound or "crack" of a "rim-shot" which combines the simultaneous strike of the drum head's low to medium fundamental tone and upper harmonics, with a strike to the metal rim or hoop of the drum, which produces a "hammer-on-steel" result as the strike resonates through the shell of the drum, which were usually a 1-3mm thick steel, brass, or aluminum shell for most pop/rock albums in that era.

So yeah, "there's no replacement for displacement" as the old saying goes. And any compression/limiting will seriously squash the dynamics, though the untamed dynamics might also torch your tweeters or other drivers, LOL. Most pro-sound/pro audio "speaker management" processors have a dedicated limiter section just for speaker protection.

Dynamic microphones such as the classic studio standard Shure SM57 are almost always employed on the snare drum exclusively, and larger diaphragm dynamic mics for the kick drum. Sometimes ribbon microphones are used (with careful consideration for SPLs and air blasts), as both dynamic and ribbon mics don't saturate or experience power compression with high-level dynamics like condenser (capacitor) microphones do. Small or more so Large Diaphragm Condenser mics are typically used for the Overhead mics and on the rest of the kit to capture detail with low noise at a slightly further distance to source.

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Old 01-24-2017   #63
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

Home audio has low noise floor, proper azimuth angle, low resonance, enough space for dipole, and the ability to place subs near floorstanders.

I don't see how car audio can ever get close to a proper home audio system. Home audio is literally limitless. Even a full size van is a crappy tin can room where you are sitting in the corner.

The beauty of car audio is that you can play loud and stomp on a V8 to make it roar at the same time.

I played Need For Speed II soundtrack songs at full tilt at Infineon raceway. I literally drove like a maniac, did full drifts through the carousel and even passed both Mclarens in advanced group. It turns out NFS tracks unleash the dragon. I recommend this experience to everyone.

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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Old 01-25-2017   #65
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

I didn't want to clutter up this thread with Off-Topic information, but I thought that it might be interesting to some of us here that are interested in recreating realistic Drum Kit & Percussion Impact and Dynamics in their Car audio system....


Drum Recording: Dynamics & Impact - Audio Examples of Different Mic Types & Placement
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinH View Post
You're also likely 2-3x the distance from your speakers in your HT compared to the distance from your speakers in your car. That's the reason inwent pro audio with 15's and a 2" CD in my home theater.
That is true. In my car the mid-basses are in my quarter panels maybe 3 1/2 ft on average from my head. In my home the 7 speakers are all 11 ft from the main listening area. But at one time I had those same 12" mid-basses and Audax midranges playing in my house playing (60w/ch) and they were much more dynamic. No comparison. And that was just 2 channels. If you stand 12 ft from my car with the hatch open it sounds more dynamic than my home system. I have never heard a dynamic HT system with a dynamic mid-bass that used 6.5 then went directly to the subs. To me the sound of a large speaker moving 1mm at 105 db sounds different than a 6.5 moving 4mm. I think you hear some difference to or you wouldn't have tried so hard to get 10" mid-basses in the civic.
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Ithink you hear some difference to or you wouldn't have tried so hard to get 10" mid-basses in the civic.

I do hear a difference but the decision to do so has more to do with staging and harmonics than it does dynamics. In fact, there are some things I gave up with no longer having 15" subs behind me.

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Old 02-12-2017   #68
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Originally Posted by cvjoint View Post
Home audio has low noise floor, proper azimuth angle, low resonance, enough space for dipole, and the ability to place subs near floorstanders.

I don't see how car audio can ever get close to a proper home audio system. Home audio is literally limitless. Even a full size van is a crappy tin can room where you are sitting in the corner.

The beauty of car audio is that you can play loud and stomp on a V8 to make it roar at the same time.

I played Need For Speed II soundtrack songs at full tilt at Infineon raceway. I literally drove like a maniac, did full drifts through the carousel and even passed both Mclarens in advanced group. It turns out NFS tracks unleash the dragon. I recommend this experience to everyone.
much funner to do it on a bike,
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Old 02-13-2017   #69
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Default Re: Why 10's or 12's for midbass??

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Originally Posted by Lou Frasier2 View Post
much funner to do it on a bike,
Would you rather be
1. below the edge
2. on the edge and over it in a cage + be able to drift

Knowing myself I would kill myself on a bike because I must be on the edge. It's not a good choice for me. I ride bicycles and drive cars because I can survive it.

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